Irish Language on Dublin Buses

lil5

etchyed wrote: »

Or even have both displayed simultaneously? Or is there not enough space?

The display shows two lines of text as per the RTPI route info (sample for stop 478 below) in Irish for quite some time, then switches to English.

Top - Address (e.g. Merrion Road)
Bottom - Location (e.g. St. Vincent's Hospital)

etchyed wrote: »

Could someone who takes the 7 please take a picture of one of these screens ...

Will do if I get a chance (and phone is charged ... )

noelfirl

From Dublin Bus Stuff http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/GTClass.html

bk

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

Would be far more useful then these screens, specially given the frequency of stops in Dublin and the stupid useless Irish issue.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

Would be far more useful then these screens, specially given the frequency of stops in Dublin and the stupid useless Irish issue.

The amount of NTA time and energy which the issue of the "Official Languages Act" has taken up is significant.

This extends to ALL on-bus signage both hard-copy and electronic.

One of the reasons we lag so far behind other more operationally astute systems is the extent to which our senior Public Transport administrative powers are prepared to bow to pressure from extremists.

In my opinion what could be a very valuable,useful aid to 100% of Public Transport users,has been effectively neutered by a requirement to make it fit the needs of c.40%

Try making sense of the statistics quoted here.....

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-now-the-third-most-spoken-language-in-Ireland-after-English-and-Polish-145200025.html

Simple clear text in the language of preference (English) would benefit far more potential customers and could be marketed as such...what we have been given,forces these customers to partake in mind-games to get any meaningful use out of the syatem.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

extremists

That's unnecessary and inflammatory.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

I had wrongly assumed that they were using LCD screens, based on earlier specualation on this thread. Hence my wondering why both the Irish and English couldn't fit on the screen simultaneously. I agree that LCD screens could provide more sophisticated information. On the other hand, LEDs have better visibility.

As for the Irish language issue, the alternation between languages will just have to be sped up. Or perhaps there could be a compromise whereby the English appears for longer, but the Irish appears first (for maybe 3-5 seconds). This might appease the Gaelgoirs, whilst acknowledging the reality that the majority of passengers will depend on the English.

devnull

etchyed wrote: »

As for the Irish language issue, the alternation between languages will just have to be sped up. Or perhaps there could be a compromise whereby the English appears for longer, but the Irish appears first (for maybe 3-5 seconds). This might appease the Gaelgoirs, whilst acknowledging the reality that the majority of passengers will depend on the English.

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

etchyed

devnull wrote: »

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

Not really like with like. The person you know is complaining that the Irish doesn't appear on the via line at all. Having the Irish appear first on internal PIS gives it prominence over English. This should make having the English appear for slightly longer easier to swallow. I don't subscribe to the automatic assumption that all these people are extremists. Most people have the capacity for pragmatism.

devnull

etchyed wrote: »

Not really like with like. The person you know is complaining that the Irish doesn't appear on the via line at all. Having the Irish appear first on internal PIS gives it prominence over English. This should make having the English appear for slightly longer easier to swallow. I don't subscribe to the automatic assumption that all these people are extremists. Most people have the capacity for pragmatism.

You misunderstood.

The Display now shows something like

Dalkey
Deilginis

And flicks to

Dalkey
Via City Centre

They want it to change to this:

Deilginis
An Lar

then flick to

Deilginis
Dalkey

So basically the opposite of what we have now. If that can't happen they will no doubt push for something like this

Top Line: Deilginis
Bottom Line: flick between Dalkey / An Lar / Via City Centre

They believe only keeping the top (English) line visible all of the time it's discriminating against the Irish language and against the languages act.

bk

Which shows the absolute craziness of the Official Languages Act.

Reduces the usability of all signs and information, while being no use to anyone *

* I have heard of not a single person who speaks Irish and not English.

I'm of the opinion that the act should be changed to say that only Gaeltacht areas are bilingual or only in Irish.

A good example of this is Poland, where most signs are only in Polish (or Polish + English), while in Kashubian parts of the country signs are in Kashubian + Polish.

Works there, why did our politicians have to pander to an extreme minority.

etchyed

devnull wrote: »

You misunderstood.

I didn't.

They believe only keeping the top (English) line visible all of the time it's... against the languages act.

It is.

devnull wrote: »

They want it to change to this:

Deilginis
An Lar

then flick to

Deilginis
Dalkey

So basically the opposite of what we have now. If that can't happen they will no doubt push for something like this

Top Line: Deilginis
Bottom Line: flick between Dalkey / An Lar / Via City Centre

If that's what this acquaintance of your really wants (i.e. you're not exaggerating what they want) then it's completely mad. Although it would be in compliance with the Languages Act, as it gives more prominence to the Irish, equal prominence would enough to comply, and there is no reason in a predominantly English-speaking city to give more prominence to the Irish.

Similarly, if it's as people in this thread have described, and the English on the internal PIS barely appears before a bus reaches its stop, then Dublin Bus would still be in compliance with the OLA if they were to shorten the Irish phase on the display.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

Which shows the absolute craziness of the Official Languages Act.

It doesn't, because what devnull's acquaintance wants is not required under the Official Languages act.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

etchyed: That's unnecessary and inflammatory.

I'm afraid etchyed,that my view has developed over quite a long period and is not specific to just the Public Transport arena either.

I have,overthe years,grown up with,known and socialized with many Gaelgeoiri.

Most of these folk ploughed a lonely furrow but never became strident or antagonistic with those people who's liking for,or affinity with,Irish as a language did'nt match their own.

I would fully support any and all realistic endeavours to make the Native Tongue more accessible for these silent Gaelgeoiri.

However,I have also brushed up against those matching Devnull's description,whose zeal is never more evident than when an opportunity to Impose their opinion arises.

They usually remain totally unaware that the mainstay of their "Irish above all" argument is based upon exactly that same level of Imposition by our former Colonial rulers...:(

When these people are seen to be able to frustrate real and quantifiable progress in any Public Arena by their ability to delay and impose their own percieved ideals,then I'm afraid my opinion of their antics remains unchanged.

LXFlyer

To be fair there has been a poster here from the Connemara Gaeltacht who revelled in telling us all on several occasions that he was going to ensure the OLA was applied rigidly by reporting both DCC and the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga. In fact he took exceptional pleasure in doing so and telling us all that he was doing it.

It is that attitude that I find nauseating. There is no need for it.

I'm proud to be Irish and of the fact we have our own language and heritage, but I fail to see the need to ram it down people's throats.

This frankly is an example of the OLA gone mad. There needs to be an element of common sense and practicality brought into the Act as this is costing the State and it's organisations excessive money that frankly we can ill afford right now.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm afraid etchyed,that my view has developed over quite a long period and is not specific to just the Public Transport arena either.

I have,overthe years,grown up with,known and socialized with many Gaelgeoiri.

Most of these folk ploughed a lonely furrow but never became strident or antagonistic with those people who's liking for,or affinity with,Irish as a language did'nt match their own.

I would fully support any and all realistic endeavours to make the Native Tongue more accessible for these silent Gaelgeoiri.

However,I have also brushed up against those matching Devnull's description,whose zeal is never more evident than when an opportunity to Impose their opinion arises.

They usually remain totally unaware that the mainstay of their "Irish above all" argument is based upon exactly that same level of Imposition by our former Colonial rulers...:(

When these people are seen to be able to frustrate real and quantifiable progress in any Public Arena by their ability to delay and impose their own percieved ideals,then I'm afraid my opinion of their antics remains unchanged.

Fair point, well made.

Sometimes I worry, however, that some people's hostility towards having Irish on display more prominently on signage, public transport etc. is motivated not by an actual problem in principle with the notion, but rather their having had experiences similar to yours with awful people like those you describe.

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

My feelings in this instance are more mixed. For a system whose sole purpose is to give an early warning to passengers that they're approaching their stop, its functionality is severely compromised if people don't actually understand what it says on the display most of the time. I would like the Irish to be present in some form, but not in a way that causes problems like this.

dfx-

etchyed wrote: »

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

The bigger question there is did that modification delay the start of the system? If it did, then it did influence negatively.

LXFlyer

It didn't as the signs were always intended to be bi-lingual.

However the aforementioned individual from the Connemara Gaeltacht took the view that they were not adhering to the OLA in the testing phase, and took a complaint regarding the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga over this, while taking (in my view) excessive pleasure in telling us here that he was doing it, and also stating that he did not care if it caused additional delays/expense as all he was concerned about was that the OLA was complied with.

It's this sort of thing that drives most people mad frankly, as it is an "in your face" application of the law in a totally absurd manner.

AlekSmart

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Just to park aside the OLA argument for the moment, regarding DB and NTA.

As soon I was heading towards Monkstown on the AX which was a 7, There was a GT right behind it, I'd said in my head silently, "Ah, Bugger it".:mad:

Umm...dare I ask for a translation.....:eek:

bk

etchyed wrote: »

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

I'm not sure about that, I do find the RTPI signs to be less useful then they could otherwise be. I have to stand and wait for the sign to switch to English to see the destination.

I know it is a small thing, but it makes me hate the Irish Language a little bit more every time I see it. Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

But as you say it is mostly the in your face nature of it all. For years we had bi-lingual signs where English was up top and Irish below in italic.

They were perfectly good signs and reasonable given that there are so few native Irish speakers in Dublin and 100% of people speak English. It was a practical solution.

But now to see all these signs replaced at great expense, with Irish up top and in the same font and style as English, making the sign less legible for the majority of people, makes me mad.

Also I've heard tourists comment that the older style signs were much nicer, the Irish in italic made it look flamboyant and interesting, while English was the practical side of the sign. We have lost that interesting utility.

LXFlyer

Do we really need to know this kind of stuff?

Frankly I think not.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure about that, I do find the RTPI signs to be less useful then they could otherwise be. I have to stand and wait for the sign to switch to English to see the destination.

You have to stand... at a bus stop? Forgive me for not seeing that as a problem. And surely by now you're familiar with the Irish names, if you're using the same routes even vaguely frequently.

bk wrote: »

I know it is a small thing, but it makes me hate the Irish Language a little bit more every time I see it.

See, how can you think it's OK to say something like that? How can you "hate" a language? Such a strong word to use. Fair enough, you can dislike (or even hate) its more militant proponents, but I just don't see how the language's existence, and its presence on some bus information displays, is any skin off your nose.

Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

I agree that some of these are ridiculous.

Aaand I've succeeded in doing something I hate and dragging a thread even further off topic and into the OLA. Apologies.

L1011

bk wrote: »

Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

I remember going through a list of termini (albeit frequently the bus destination doesn't use the full name) at the time of the gloating language troll on here and about half of the DB termini do not have real Irish language names.

E.g. locally, the stop names for termini are "Kingsbry Junction" (1980s housing estate, no Irish name) "Opp Glenroyal Hotel (1990s hotel, no Irish name), "Salesians College" (no longer a terminus - but no Irish name) and so on. Not a single one had a legitimate Irish language name, but I'm sure something would have been made up to satisfy a few zealots.

bk

etchyed wrote: »

See, how can you think it's OK to say something like that? How can you "hate" a language? Such a strong word to use. Fair enough, you can dislike (or even hate) its more militant proponents, but I just don't see how the language's existence, and its presence on some bus information displays, is any skin off your nose.

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

Cookie_Monster

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

+1

Seanchai

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bitter, turgid, tumescent vitriol. Spot the loser. Have you enough scapegoats today for your own failures? Grow up, accept responsibility for your choices, your evident intellectual limitations and your issues. You're only a victim of your own hatred here.

Meanwhile, when will zealots like you stop supporting the forcing of the English language upon us throughout school and across society? As people like you ram your language down our throats and ears, deny us a right to communicate with this state via our language and attempt to impose your narrow monoglot anglophone world upon us via signs (and much else), and go apeshít when Irish people demand that signs be bilingual, bilingual, I won't hold my breath for enlightenment from your quarter, or that of your equally benighted fellow travellers.

The true fanaticism is from hate-filled, deeply insecure, narrow-minded, less educated English monoglots like you who go apoplectic at any sign of the Irish language being given equal recognition in this society to your English language. Mere equality and you lose the plot. That, my dear boy, is the real extremism in this. The fact that there are more of you is not an abnegation of that extremism: it merely confirms that it has morphed into a lynch mob mentality.

Seanchai

MYOB wrote: »

... about half of the DB termini do not have real Irish language names.

E.g. locally, the stop names for termini are "Kingsbry Junction" (1980s housing estate, no Irish name) "Opp Glenroyal Hotel (1990s hotel, no Irish name), "Salesians College" (no longer a terminus - but no Irish name) and so on. Not a single one had a legitimate Irish language name, but I'm sure something would have been made up to satisfy a few zealots.

Indeed, yes indeed. And you know what is "a legitimate Irish language name" how, precisely? I look forward to all the Irish haters here demanding that every single name in Dublin which is an anglicisation of an Irish place be taken off signs because they aren't "legitimate" either - I certainly can't find most of them in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Glenroyal" sounds at least half Irish, Gleann, if not totally Irish Gleann Rí Liam. Salesian sounds like a very suspicious anglicisation of Les salésiens de Don Bosco. And so on ad infinitum. Not "real" English words at all.

The general bigotry, double standard and abject ignorance on this specific issue here can be summed up thus: Irish versions of non-Irish names = unacceptable; English versions of non-English names = acceptable. Contemptible stuff. When it comes to hating Irish-Ireland, the English trained you and your like-minded posters well.

Seanchai

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair there has been a poster here from the Connemara Gaeltacht who revelled in telling us all on several occasions that he was going to ensure the OLA was applied rigidly by reporting both DCC and the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga. In fact he took exceptional pleasure in doing so and telling us all that he was doing it.... This frankly is an example of the OLA gone mad. There needs to be an element of common sense and practicality brought into the Act as this is costing the State and it's organisations excessive money that frankly we can ill afford right now.

Yes, heaven forfend that the Irish language would be treated equally to your beloved English language in the signs throughout this state. "Madness" indeed. Jesus wept.

L1011

Seanchai wrote: »

Indeed, yes indeed. And you know what is "a legitimate Irish language name" how, precisely?

Because I live here. "Kingsbry" is named after King Construction that built it. "Glenroyal" is Glenkerrin Homes + Royal Canal, builders + where its beside. Salesians is the name in English of the organisation that runs the school the terminus was beside. Not one of them has any Irish-language equivalent other than something made up on the fly.

Seanchai wrote: »

The general bigotry, double standard and abject ignorance on this specific issue here can be summed up thus: Irish versions of non-Irish names = unacceptable; English versions of non-English names = acceptable. Contemptible stuff.

This is an English-speaking country, much as a tiny cohort of people try and deny. That is why we have English-language names.

Seanchai wrote: »

When it comes to hating Irish-Ireland, the English trained you and your like-minded posters well.

Paranoid xenophobia much?

L1011

Seanchai wrote: »

The true fanaticism is from hate-filled, deeply insecure, narrow-minded, less educated English monoglots

Pretty standard, wilfully ill-informed and vicious retort. Not wanting Irish to get the ridiculous level of support it gets compared to its ultra-minority status does not suggest that someone is either "less educated" or for that mattera monoglot.

I can actually speak Irish to a fairly acceptable level - I just have no need to. I can also read German, Dutch and Slovak (and hence to a lesser extent Czech). Care to continue claiming I'm a monoglot for wanting the main language of the country to get proper priority?

dfx-

Shouldn't Seanchai be typing in Irish or at least in equal parts that he so desires?

Cookie_Monster

dfx- wrote: »

Shouldn't Seanchai be typing in Irish or at least in equal parts that he so desires?

No, that's the great thing about boards, it doesn't have to abide by those loony rules and can insist everyone use English only. Huzzah!

AlekSmart

Seanchai wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bitter, turgid, tumescent vitriol. Spot the loser. Have you enough scapegoats today for your own failures? Grow up, accept responsibility for your choices, your evident intellectual limitations and your issues. You're only a victim of your own hatred here.

Meanwhile, when will zealots like you stop supporting the forcing of the English language upon us throughout school and across society? As people like you ram your language down our throats and ears, deny us a right to communicate with this state via our language and attempt to impose your narrow monoglot anglophone world upon us via signs (and much else), and go apeshít when Irish people demand that signs be bilingual, bilingual, I won't hold my breath for enlightenment from your quarter, or that of your equally benighted fellow travellers.

The true fanaticism is from hate-filled, deeply insecure, narrow-minded, less educated English monoglots like you who go apoplectic at any sign of the Irish language being given equal recognition in this society to your English language. Mere equality and you lose the plot. That, my dear boy, is the real extremism in this. The fact that there are more of you is not an abnegation of that extremism: it merely confirms that it has morphed into a lynch mob mentality.

Wow....You wait a while and three come together !

I'm afraid Seanchai has just given us a masterclass in i dotting and t crossing which underlines the awful reality of what sparked off this debate.

There are so many frighteneing aspects to these posts that it's unreal......

I was chided for describing some of the Gaelgeoiri as extremists in an earlier post......

Etchyed: That's unnecessary and inflammatory.

Frankly,reading the three quite lucid,comprehensive and well written posts above,my opinion has if anything,only been reinforced.

Most Irish people are speaking English because they WANT to.

This may be an uncomfortable reality for some,but it's the reality of Irish life,and has been for virtually all of modern memory.

The parallell reality may well also be that the use of Irish died out as it simply proved unpopular and incapable of allowing it's speakers to function in a fast changing social landscape,thus,English became the language of survival and progress,something which,even today remains evident as millions of Chinese,for example,spend billions of dollars/euro/pounds learning it.

PS: I've just re-read Seanachi's posts again and perhaps the topic merits a thread-split,as I feel there's little relevance to the real-world of the main GT Class topic.

At this stage it's rest one's case time.

CIE

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent

And what does that have to do with how good of a ride the GT class of buses will have on Dublin streets? or what effect, if any, the centre door will have on bus stop dwell times?

(I must've had nice teachers in Leixlip. Never felt that Irish was "jammed down my throat" at any time when they taught it. Nor did I feel such a thing when taking other foreign languages when I reached secondary school age, primarily French.)

When I was young, the destination signs on Dublin buses started off with the ultimate destination sign on the very bottom (in English) and the upper sign having the places the bus travelled "via" en route (in Irish), e.g. a number 8 bus bound for Dalkey would have Carraig Dhubh/Dún Laoghaire on the upper sign (one place name above the other) and DALKEY in large capitals on the lower sign; when returning to the city centre, the lower sign would say either AN LÁR (eek, in Irish) or CITY CENTRE (the Irish more common). Later in the 70s, this changed to the upper sign having the destination in bilingual form with Irish on the upper half, and one location the bus went "via" on the lower scroll, sometimes indicating a special alternate routing (e.g. route 33 saying Baile Brigín/Balbriggan on top and via Loughshinney on bottom). It wasn't until the digital destination signs came along that the English destination name migrated to the top with the Irish form migrating to the bottom, so it really is not that long of a time that the English was on the upper half; my guess is less than two decades, especially compared to how long Irish was on the upper half.

bk

Seanchai wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bitter, turgid, tumescent vitriol. Spot the loser. Have you enough scapegoats today for your own failures? Grow up, accept responsibility for your choices, your evident intellectual limitations and your issues. You're only a victim of your own hatred here.

Wow, thanks for proving my point about bitter Irish zealots so eloquently.

This is exactly what I was talking about. It is exactly this sort of person that turns so many Irish people off the Irish language. If you don't speak Irish they think you are some sort of failure and intellectually limited.

I assume you think WB Yeats, Bram Stoker and Oscar Wilde are equally intellectually limited and failures for being Irish men who couldn't speak Irish?

BTW I speak French, German, Spanish, read Latin and currently learning a little Polish. These are useful to me, Irish is not.

BBTW What pisses me off is not that Irish gets equality, it is that it gets higher placing then English, despite being an extreme minority. Irish is the only subject every student must take at leaving cert. Even Maths and English aren't required, how is that equality? Irish now taking top position on signs over English, even in predominately English speaking areas, how is that equality? Bi-Lingual sins in Gaeltact areas are being replaced with only Irish signs, how is that equality?

cullenswood

The signs seem to change at 8 second intervals. If they changed at 3-4 second intervals it would help a lot as the English would be displayed more frequently keeping everyone happy

dublinbusdude

All buses should have English, Irish, Polish, Spainish, French, German & Chinesse in the system.

Cookie_Monster

dublinbusdude wrote: »

All buses should have English, Irish, Polish, Spainish, French, German & Chinesse in the system.

both types?

dublinbusdude

Typeo

bk

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

both types?

Actually there are about a dozen or so with more then a million native speakers.

e.g. Mandarin (about 850 million), Wu (90 million), Cantonese (Yue) (70 million) and Min (50 million)

etchyed

bk wrote: »

Actually there are about a dozen or so with more then a million native speakers.

e.g. Mandarin (about 850 million), Wu (90 million), Cantonese (Yue) (70 million) and Min (50 million)

But all written the same. "Both types" refers to either the traditional character set (Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao, most Chinese ex-pats) or the simplified (mainland China, Singapore, Malaysia).

Behind Seanchai's rant there are some valid points about the skewed logic of the anti-Irish posters in this thread. Unfortunately, 'rant' is the operative word. AlekSmart's e-word has indeed proven true. That's not to say there hasn't been ranting from the other side, and it had started long before Seanchai waded in.

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

It has come to represent to you. Please don't impose your anti-Irish language sentiment on the rest of us just because you've had a bad experience with people like Seanchai. My experience with Irish has been nothing but positive.

Once again, this has all become too emotive, as debates on language and national identity always do. Most practical, on-topic post in this thread has to be this one:

cullenswood wrote: »

The signs seem to change at 8 second intervals. If they changed at 3-4 second intervals it would help a lot as the English would be displayed more frequently keeping everyone happy

That's all that's required here.

bk

etchyed wrote: »

It has come to represent to you. Please don't impose your anti-Irish language sentiment on the rest of us just because you've had a bad experience with people like Seanchai. My experience with Irish has been nothing but positive.

Well given that despite 14 years of Irish language education, the majority of Irish people still don't speak the language or at best totally ignore it I think says a lot.

Personally I have no problem with people speaking Irish or whatever language they want. Where I draw the line is Irish speakers attempts to impose it on the rest of us who don't speak it and have no interest in speaking it.

For instance making Irish compulsory at school. Why should anyone be forced to study a subject they aren't interested in? Not after primary school anyway.

And what about them having all signs bilingual, even in areas where almost no one speaks the language. It is such a waste of time and resources and really does nothing to promote the language.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

Well given that despite 14 years of Irish language education, the majority of Irish people still don't speak the language or at best totally ignore it I think says a lot.

It says that Irish is badly taught in schools, and it says no more than that.

bk wrote: »

Where I draw the line is Irish speakers attempts to impose it on the rest of us who don't speak it and have no interest in speaking it.

bk wrote: »

And what about them having all signs bilingual

Bilingual signage is not an imposition upon you. It just isn't. The clue is in the name. Bilingual. Both languages. The English is still there.

You are the one who would impose your will upon others by having the signs in English only.

Compulsory Irish education is a complex issue that's even more divisive than bilingual signage. As with many Irish-language issues I have mixed feelings about it, but unlike the signage issue, it's not even tenuously on topic here and I think it's best left to another thread.

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

Bilingual signage is not an imposition upon you. It just isn't. The clue is in the name. Bilingual. Both languages. The English is still there.

You are the one who would impose your will upon others by having the signs in English only.

So are you against monolingual signage in gaeltachts then? That's an imposition - and an extremely damaging one when it comes to tourism, which is often the only viable 'industry' there.

etchyed

MYOB wrote: »

So are you against monolingual signage in gaeltachts then?

Yes.

LordSutch

MYOB wrote: »

Paranoid xenophobia much?

Don't pay any attention to his ravings, I think he's on a self destruct mission

He was banned only last week for similar carry on > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80556051&postcount=43

Victor

Seanchai wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bitter, turgid, tumescent vitriol. Spot the loser. Have you enough scapegoats today for your own failures? Grow up, accept responsibility for your choices, your evident intellectual limitations and your issues. You're only a victim of your own hatred here.

No need for comments like this.

Attack the post, not the poster.

Moderator

Seanchai

MYOB wrote: »

Because I live here. "Kingsbry" is named after King Construction that built it. "Glenroyal" is Glenkerrin Homes + Royal Canal, builders + where its beside. Salesians is the name in English of the organisation that runs the school the terminus was beside. Not one of them has any Irish-language equivalent other than something made up on the fly.

So now that two names created from company names and one from the name of a French religious Order constitute "legitimate English language names" and not "made up on the fly" names in your mind, we can only stand in admiration at your singling out of Irish for not having "legitimate" Irish language names for places. Bravo. Talk about fitting your argument to suit your prejudices.

MYOB wrote: »

This is an English-speaking country.... That is why we have English-language names.

Odd, that, as I had far more conversations in Irish today than I did in English. But nice attempt at trying to remove Irish speakers and Irish from your definition of Irishness. It's the sheer determination to prevent Irish from having equal standing in the institutions and signs of the Irish state that is the repeated mark of the anti-Irish brigade in this thread.

Opposing bilingual signs in this country is extremism by any standards, and is an attempt to impose an English cultural and linguistic identity upon Irish people.

MYOB wrote: »

Paranoid xenophobia much?

Given that you're the one trying to exclude Irish and Irishness from this country and impose English language signs alone everywhere here, your allegation of xenophobia is risible. It is Irish which you and your ilk would love to consign to foreignness in Ireland.

As long as educated, culturally open-minded Irish people exist, that sort of culturally intolerant anti-Irish future is not going to happen here.

Seanchai

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No, that's the great thing about boards, it doesn't have to abide by those loony rules and can insist everyone use English only. Huzzah!

But it doesn't, because Boards.ie is a commercial company which has the sense to recognise that there is more than enough support in this society for Irish to ensure Boards.ie would lose a significant degree of business, goodwill and reputation if it ever introduced such a counter-productive policy.

Before responding, do at least look up the meaning of the word 'only' which you used, and then consult actual Boards.ie policy.

Seanchai

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm afraid Seanchai has just given us a masterclass in i dotting and t crossing which underlines the awful reality of what sparked off this debate.

What started this "debate" is that people like you want to deny equality to the Irish language on signs across Dublin. Bilingual signs, not monolingual Irish signs, get your extremism going. You want to impose your English language alone upon those of us who have a more open cultural world, a much broader understanding of Irishness, than you people and your cultural intolerance can abide. That's how extreme your demands are. Equality offends you. That demand for equality provoked the ire of every anti-Irish bigot and linguistic fascist here. No more, and no less.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Most Irish people are speaking English because they WANT to.

Interesting, I thought it had something to do with centuries of British rule and control of power here. It seems now that Irish people just woke up one morning and started speaking English because they liked the language. Nothing to do with power dynamics at all. Well done. I get the distinct impression that you had as much bother with History as with Irish at school.

AlekSmart wrote: »

There are so many frighteneing aspects to these posts that it's unreal...... I was chided for describing some of the Gaelgeoiri as extremists in an earlier post...... At this stage it's rest one's case time.

The English in your posts is abysmal, a fact which explains your irrational hatred for Irish: even English is too difficult for you. Please come back and criticise those of us who can master both, but choose to defend the equality in Ireland of the less powerful language, when you have the work ethic to learn English properly. Until then, the irony is too much.

Seanchai

bk wrote: »

Wow, thanks for proving my point about bitter Irish zealots so eloquently.

Given that you began this by a hate-filled unprovoked attack on mere equality for the Irish language on signs around Dublin, you really don't have to look far to find the true linguistic zealot in this thread.

bk wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Don't flatter yourself: it isn't. You were ranting about how much you hate, hate, hate Irish and Irish speakers having equality in Irish society. Hate, that was what you were "talking" about.

bk wrote: »

It is exactly this sort of person that turns so many Irish people off the Irish language.

No, it patently isn't. It's the work perceived to be needed to learn the language which has turned people you know off learning it. Most people shy away from too much work. Most people, however, also get on with life without hard feeling. Some, however, develop a super massive chip on their shoulder and spend the rest of their lives seeking scapegoats for their failures and generally hating anything to do with Irish. No prizes for guessing which one you are. Fact: These people generally are of inferior intelligence, for if they had better intelligence and perspective they would find something positive to define themselves by and get over things in life. Hating is for losers. Fact.

bk wrote: »

If you don't speak Irish they think you are some sort of failure and intellectually limited.

Or, more accurately, if you come on an online discussion ranting against equality for Irish, you have problems. Trying to now contend that it is your inability to speak Irish, rather than your hate-filled posts against Irish speakers having a right to have signs which include their language, that is the problem here simply highlights how dishonest you are being in this thread. Plenty of people cannot speak Irish. Very, very few of them, however, have your hatred for it and mere bilingual signs in Ireland.

bk wrote: »

I assume you think WB Yeats, Bram Stoker and Oscar Wilde are equally intellectually limited and failures for being Irish men who couldn't speak Irish?

Perhaps you're looking for the word 'surmise' - "a thought or idea based on scanty evidence" - because 'assume' is laughably inappropriate here. If you could show where either of these shared your hatred for the language, you might recover somewhat from this failure on your part to understand the English language.

bk wrote: »

I speak French, German, Spanish, read Latin and currently learning a little Polish.

Indeed. Quite impressive, to say the least, given your posts in English thus far.

LordSutch

Seanchai see himself as a latter day 'Oliver Cromwell type' on a crusade to protect the Irish language with a rod of iron. He also manages to fit the words British Empire, Monoglot, Poppy, and Irish haters into most of his hard hitting hate filled posts! He's been banned and warned several times and in different forums just within the last few days, so best to ignore him and carry on with this very interesting bus thread.

My own tipple is the NBFL (Borismaster), and that's the only bus I am interested at the moment, so I'll just read your GT class posts on here with great interest, but without much comment. If anybody wants to talk about the NBFL (in another thread) then I'm up for it.