Is it all an illusion

mariaalice

If you looked at the culture that Irish women live in, looked at a random sample of you female friends and family, looked at the open discussion of fifty shades of Grey, the fact that most women in Ireland are well educated, you would to come to the conclusion that life has total changed for women over the past few years.


I do not buy the Sunday independent however my mother dose so last Sunday I was flicking through it in her house when I came across an article purporting to tell it like it relay is for a first time mother.... the woman writing was 36 and peppered her piece with thing like " now that I am married and allowed to have sex" and "on the missions" etc phrases from the Ireland's of the 1950th I am sure she though she was being witty or something but it occurred to me the writer must acutely think there still exists a mind set in Ireland that would still think a single female having sex is something to be discreet about. I just though it was a bit bizarre and rather silly.

Talking to someone I work with who comes from a small town in Ireland.... who said to me its totally different in Dublin in small towns there is still the idea of woman having a bad reputation and life is still very Conservative. I find that hard to understand and believe in this day and age?

Madam_X

The attitude (among both genders) that women who have casual sex are sluts definitely still exists (I've read anecdotes here re women who won't carry condoms for fear of being seen as sluts!) and there's that "lock and key" rubbish, and a loathing of single mothers (although thats moreso economic these days - seemingly) but things are still infinitely better than even just 25 years ago.

cynder

It's still there, more so in country areas, where everyone knows what you had for dinner.

If they want to live that way it's up to them.

Lyaiera

Madam_X wrote: »

and there's that "lock and key" rubbish

I like the lock and key rubbish in that it succintly sums up a huge amount of sexist attitudes.

ima_goldfish!

I personally think Irish people are largely not as conservative as they were 25 plus years ago obviously,but there are still a minority than because of their families etc are still living back in old conservative,very catholic Ireland.
I mean divorce was only legal in Ireland in the 90's! Thats crazy not even 10 years ago!
I also know a few lads who still think a girls value is in her virginity being in tact ,and something I thought very frightening and backwards was the attitude amoungst a good few young lads that there is a weird social status achieved when your the one to take a girls virginity. As a woman I found that disgusting.
Then there are so many lovely open minded people around of both genders. Alot of it is in the family values and the community that the person has been brought up in.

Nymeria

I wouldn't say it's an illusion as such, but there is still a long way to go.

I do think there is huge variation in the attitudes that prevail (as with anything I suppose) about women's sexuality.

An example of this would be the issue of how many previous sexual partners a girlfriend has had. I have heard it said a few times, and even here on boards there have been some threads about it in PI, where a boyfriend or partner has reservations about their girlfriend or sees them differently simply because of discovering how many partners she has had. It really irritates me because it has no bearing on the person she is, but some how she is seen as 'used' or less than because of it.

Another thing that is prevalent and sadly will probably never change is the idea that the most important thing that a young woman can be is attractive. The message that is pushed in the media constantly is to be the most glossiest, prettiest version of yourself for the boys. I know that men are increasingly being targeted in a similar way, however i feel that in reality, the pressure to look a certain way will never affect men as strongly as it does women.

pwurple

Nymeria wrote: »

I do think there is huge variation in the attitudes that prevail (as with anything I suppose) about women's sexuality.

An example of this would be the issue of how many previous sexual partners a girlfriend has had. I have heard it said a few times, and even here on boards there have been some threads about it in PI, where a boyfriend or partner has reservations about their girlfriend or sees them differently simply because of discovering how many partners she has had.

On the other side of this, I was never attracted to guys who had a lot of partners. I was wary of STD's, and being used myself... so I completely ruled out guys as potential partners if they had a lot of previous partners. I can certainly understand people of either gender feeling this way.

Protecting myself? Or being unreasonable?

gara

I stopped reading after 'Sunday Independent'

Wompa1

Of course you'd get a reputation in a small town. Not just women. Men too. There was a guy in my small town who rubbed sh!t under the door handles on cars outside the church on Sunday mornings. During school a girl was notorious for give guys bj's in the gym locker room so she got a long last reputation. Another girl had been with half the guys in the town. You'd hear about people who cheated on their husbands or wives etc.

Maybe some women would think that's them being singled out. It's not. If you got a reputation, odds are you earned it or somebody was spreading rumors about you. Could happen to anybody.

B0jangles

Wompa1 wrote: »

"a guy in my small town who rubbed sh!t under the door handles on cars outside the church on Sunday mornings."
"a girl was notorious for give guys bj's in the gym locker room so she got a long last reputation."
"Another girl had been with half the guys in the town."

One of these things is not like the others.

LittleBook

mariaalice wrote: »

phrases from the Ireland's of the 1950th I am sure she though she was being witty or something but it occurred to me the writer must acutely think there still exists a mind set in Ireland that would still think a single female having sex is something to be discreet about. I just though it was a bit bizarre and rather silly

I think it takes more than one generation to change attitudes like this which were so deeply ingrained in society for so long.

ima_goldfish!

On the other side of this, I was never attracted to guys who had a lot of partners. I was wary of STD's, and being used myself... so I completely ruled out guys as potential partners if they had a lot of previous partners. I can certainly understand people of either gender feeling this way.

On the flipside though you you dont view these men as "de-valued" or "unclean" or a "slapper" etc etc. I can totally understand your being wary of men who have had quite alot of previous partners,due to STDS or being used yourself, but from what I have seen men (in general not all) are less concerned with these things but more het up on the girl being a "slut" and having less worth to them.
For some reason still a girls "value" in alot of mens eyes is all tied up either in their virginity or the least about of previous sexual experience and partners as possible.

If you got a reputation, odds are you earned it or somebody was spreading rumors about you

I disagree with that unless it is in particular context. The girls apparently giving bjs in the locker room ever ask yourself why she may have been doing it? Also secondary school gossip should not be taken for fact.EVER. If it is then there must be some very close minded and idiotic people around

Honey-ec

ima_goldfish! wrote: »

I mean divorce was only legal in Ireland in the 90's! Thats crazy not even 10 years ago.

15 years ago, actually. 1997 it was formally made available, after the referendum in 1995.

DamoKen

ima_goldfish! wrote: »

On the flipside though you you dont view these men as "de-valued" or "unclean" or a "slapper" etc etc. I can totally understand your being wary of men who have had quite alot of previous partners,due to STDS or being used yourself, but from what I have seen men (in general not all) are less concerned with these things but more het up on the girl being a "slut" and having less worth to them.
For some reason still a girls "value" in alot of mens eyes is all tied up either in their virginity or the least about of previous sexual experience and partners as possible.

First time posting in this forum but just giving a guys perspective on this.

Are the guys you know really young? The obsession with virginity is a bit bizarre, not to mention in this day and age a little unrealistic once you've hit your twenties. Nothing wrong with being a virgin until whatever age, just not nearly as common as it would have been 30-40 years ago.

Most guys past a certain age,at least the ones I know, would be just as concerned about STD's as girls are, they'd want to be really stupid not to be. Personally if I found out a potential partner had slept with a substantial number of people before me I would firstly however unromantic it might seem want both of us to have a check up if it looked like we might be going somewhere with it. Secondly although I would never say it I couldn't help but wonder if this was just something casual and be a little wary of jumping into something too quickly.

I would think most people, male and female would be similar. Not saying I would judge someone by their number of partners or attach a label. I would just not be so inclined to close my eyes and dive into a serious relationship. The irritating thought that you're just another number for the bed post might not be as exclusive to girls as you think

Oh and labelling? Believe it or not I've had female friends over the years refer to certain guys from my home town with a "reputation" as sluts. Small town mentality in action I guess.

ima_goldfish!

It's always good to see a man's opinion but as I said this is in general not a rule. I know a few men who would be quite similar to you regarding woman's sexual history etc. Which is only right in this day and age.

Are the guys you know really young?

I found. just in my group of friends, it was actually the slightly older generation (men in their early to mid-twenties) that had this "purity" obsession. My closer friends would be 19/20 and dont seem to have that mentality at all. Most are gay though and I have found gay men are not as uptight about "purity" as straight (and in this case ) older guys.This is just based on my personal experience with the people I know though, it is not a gender based rule or anything like that.
I just find it hard to believe any man (or maybe woman?) would be so obsessed with virginity and the "value" of their girlfriend based around it.
I consider it a big problem no matter what age. Talking to people around me recently it came out that taking someones virginity was seen as a status symbol?
I understand your saying most men will grow out of this,and I would like to think that was true,but I have my doubts about some people. Anyway I dont think its an acceptable attitude in any age. Boys will be boys and think silly things about what they dont understand etc etc. Education needs to up its game if thats the case, i think attitudes like this are a key in rape occurence. Its all tied up with a negative view of women.

ima_goldfish!

I feel this is as a result of what these boys should have grown out of.
"no means yes.yes means anal"." my name is jack. im a necrophiliac. i f**K dead women" (vid doesnt show second half of chant) Deliberately chanted outside the Womens Centre of this college. The boys involved were severely punished but then the punishment was thought to be too harsh by a male member of the college who said "boys will be boys".

Wompa1

B0jangles wrote: »

One of these things is not like the others.

There's guy who got a rep for riding anything. Cheating on your husband or wife is bad, vandalizing cars is bad, being promiscious is also bad. Or am I meant to take the guy attitude and say anyone getting the ride is a legend?

If you do bad things in a small town, word spreads. You can do that in a city and nobody gives a sh!t.

WhyGoBald

gara wrote: »

I stopped reading after 'Sunday Independent'

This is pretty much it, the Sunday Independent deliberately markets itself to the most reactionary and, frankly, the worst elements of Irish society.

And that such attitudes are still there is not very surprising. It happens in most societies where religion plays or has played a significant role in public life. It doesn't mean they are predominant.

Madam_X

Wompa1 wrote: »

There's guy who got a rep for riding anything. Cheating on your husband or wife is bad, vandalizing cars is bad, being promiscious is also bad. Or am I meant to take the guy attitude and say anyone getting the ride is a legend?

Not seeing anyone even vaguely implying that - the point was just that the guy you mentioned wasn't doing anything deemed slutty, so it just didn't really fit into the context.

Quorum

Wompa1 wrote: »

There's guy who got a rep for riding anything. Cheating on your husband or wife is bad, vandalizing cars is bad, being promiscious is also bad.

How is two consenting single adults having sex in the same league as betraying someone or damaging property?

Morag

It is not an illusion but there are some parts of the country were people are still very narrow and not accepting of people who do not live their life in way they do.
It can be like stepping back in time and it can be unnerving as it may make you think
what your life would be life if all of society did a few steps back to how it used to be
30/40 years ago.