Opting Out of Communion

Birroc

My son has started 2nd class. It is a big Catholic school but as we are not practicing Catholics, we do not want him doing communion. The teacher seems to have assumed he is doing it even though I know other parents who will also opt out. So how should I approach the subject with the teacher? Should I ask her to let my son do religion/prayers but just opt out of the Communion prep? How do schools normally handle this?
I am very afraid my son will get bullied. He is fine about not doing the communion but one of the other boys already told him that "my mummy said people not doing communion hate God" so I am worried. I know the woman and she would say such a thing.

byhookorbycrook

Make an appointment with the teacher and let her know. There should be no issue. As regards bullying, opting out should not make him a target for bullying, plenty kids opt out these days.

ShamoBuc

Opting out is fine and goes on nearly every year in our school. The teacher will automatically presume he is going to make his communion - have a chat with the them, there won't be any problem. How much he is involved in all the activities will be upto you. Some parents want their children withdrawn from class when Nativity play and Communion preparations are on. I would try to have the child in the class as much as possible - maybe reading or writing stories etc as you would be surprised how many hours go into both of them.

An Bradán Feasa

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Opting out is fine and goes on nearly every year in our school. The teacher will automatically presume he is going to make his communion - have a chat with the them, there won't be any problem. How much he is involved in all the activities will be upto you. Some parents want their children withdrawn from class when Nativity play and Communion preparations are on. I would try to have the child in the class as much as possible - maybe reading or writing stories etc as you would be surprised how many hours go into both of them.

FYI, I would try to avoid asking to have your child withdrawn from the class, as this creates further problems, as in who will be keeping an eye on this child at these times?

The Bishop Basher

Why send your child to a Roman Catholic school if you have an issues with the Roman Catholic traditions ?

Just wondering like..

Bloody Nipples

Swanner wrote: »

Why send your child to a Roman Catholic school if you have an issues with the Roman Catholic traditions ?

Not like there's a whole lot of alternatives in Ireland.

The Bishop Basher

Fair enough. Coming from the CoI were a bit light on choices as well. Just means the kids have to travel a bit further but i suppose non denominational schools are a bit thin on the ground.

j.l

Swanner wrote: »

Fair enough. Coming from the CoI were a bit light on choices as well. Just means the kids have to travel a bit further but i suppose non denominational schools are a bit thin on the ground.

They're a bit more than "thin on the ground," they're non-existent on the ground. There's no state non-denominational schools in Ireland.

lucybrown11

Hi Birroc,
I have taught Communion classes for a number of years now and its no problem at all if a child is not making their Communion. My advice would be drop in to see the teacher asap and let her know. I would always assume children were making the sacrament until told otherwise. There is usually one or two not making it and I make no big deal of it in the classroom.

I do religion as I normally would and for Communion preparation time I would let any children not making it choose another activity eg. reading /computer/puzzle/other artwork or writing during that time. If you do not want your child present in for any preparation just let the teacher know and im sure she will do her best to accomodate your wishes.

byhookorbycrook

lucybrown11 wrote: »

Hi Birroc,
I. If you do not want your child present in for any preparation just let the teacher know and im sure she will do her best to accomodate your wishes.

I dislike the idea of sending a child out of the room, it makes them feel very self-conscious. The other issue is where to send them-there are no "spare" teachers floating around or indeed spare rooms either.

lucybrown11

I agree byhookorbycrook, I personally do not like the idea of sending children out, I think it makes a big deal of things, however sometimes when the class are going to the church to practice parents prefer their children not to go and I have had to find another room for them to stay in, or do a little job such as helping in the infant room.

68Murph68

lucybrown11 wrote: »

Hi Birroc,
I have taught Communion classes for a number of years now and its no problem at all if a child is not making their Communion. My advice would be drop in to see the teacher asap and let her know. I would always assume children were making the sacrament until told otherwise. There is usually one or two not making it and I make no big deal of it in the classroom.

I do religion as I normally would and for Communion preparation time I would let any children not making it choose another activity eg. reading /computer/puzzle/other artwork or writing during that time. If you do not want your child present in for any preparation just let the teacher know and im sure she will do her best to accomodate your wishes.

Have you noticed an increase in the number of children opting out of taking part in religion recently?

I would have thought that the situation would be heading away from the one or two per class number and heading more towards the double figure at this stage. Is this wide of the mark?

byhookorbycrook

Not in most of the schools I know, single figures even in the biggest schools. There is an ET school in the locality and a multi-denom Gaelscoil within a ten mile radius, so people who wish to opt out of sacraments etc. might be choosing to go to those schools instead.

Birroc

Last year from a class of 28, there were 8 opting out.

byhookorbycrook

Wow, that's huge!Never heard of more than 2 or 3.

68Murph68

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not in most of the schools I know, single figures even in the biggest schools. There is an ET school in the locality and a multi-denom Gaelscoil within a ten mile radius, so people who wish to opt out of sacraments etc. might be choosing to go to those schools instead.

I'd imagine a ET or a multi-denom school in an area would affect things hugely.

Birroc wrote: »

Last year from a class of 28, there were 8 opting out.

Thats kinda what I was expecting based on friends/relatives.

How was this managed?

From a teaching viewpoint it must surely cause issues?

Birroc

68Murph68 wrote: »

How was this managed?

From a teaching viewpoint it must surely cause issues?

School have absolutely no problem with it - excellent school principal. The 8 kids were allowed stay in class for much of the prep work - they were doing homework, art etc. The communion kids would go to the hall for some prep work too. Not sure who minded the kids but they managed.

echo beach

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not in most of the schools I know, single figures even in the biggest schools. There is an ET school in the locality and a multi-denom Gaelscoil within a ten mile radius, so people who wish to opt out of sacraments etc. might be choosing to go to those schools instead.

Many parents are sheep, following the herd. They don't go to Mass themselves but they don't want their kids to be the 'odd one out'.
If pupils had to 'opt-in' rather than 'opt-out' with parents having to put in a bit of effort it would be the other way around - a handful of kids making communion.

68Murph68

Birroc wrote: »

School have absolutely no problem with it - excellent school principal. The 8 kids were allowed stay in class for much of the prep work - they were doing homework, art etc. The communion kids would go to the hall for some prep work too. Not sure who minded the kids but they managed.

Was there any discussion of what would/could be happening in the future?

Was there any discussion of it at a school board level or was there any informal discussion?

Say if there were 14 kids in the class opting out or if there were 20 opting out?

Will the school continue to offer communion if there was one pupil in a class ?

I presume this is a school where there isnt a ET alternative available?

68Murph68

echo beach wrote: »

Many parents are sheep, following the herd. They don't go to Mass themselves but they don't want their kids to be the 'odd one out'.
If pupils had to 'opt-in' rather than 'opt-out' with parents having to put in a bit of effort it would be the other way around - a handful of kids making communion.

I think things have changed a lot in the last five years. I know and have heard of a lot of new parents who would have been of the cultural Catholic type who I would have expected to get their child baptised to fit in who have skipped it.

I would expect the number opting out of religion in schools to rise sharply over the next 10 years.

I can't see how the Catholic ethos model in schools can continue on especially when you take into account the massive decrease in the number of clergy.

JustAThought

Its a bit unfair: you take up a place in a Catholic school yet don't want your child to participate in educational aspects that are fundamental to the Catholic ethos of the school.

Most Catholic primary schools have religion as a fundamental aspect of the school life: prayers in the morning , hymns at assembly, religion class daily.

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit innterms of inconvenience,commute or fees for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

5uspect

JustAThought wrote: »

Its a bit unfair: you take up a place in a Catholic school yet don't want your child to participate in educational aspects that are fundamental to the Catholic ethos of the school.

Most Catholic primary schools have religion as a fundamental aspect of the school life: prayers in the morning , hymns at assembly, religion class daily.

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

The majority of schools in Ireland, over 90% are under Catholic patronage. For most people there is no other choice. These schools are funded by the Irish tax payer but simply handed over to the Church without question. It's a ridiculous state of affairs and the sooner it ends the better.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself:

one might suggest the religious parents do exactly that on their own time

enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school

It's already been pointed out to you that non-denoms don't exist. Maybe you should lighten up on the high horse since they don't have an alternative

68Murph68

JustAThought wrote: »

Its a bit unfair: you take up a place in a Catholic school yet don't want your child to participate in educational aspects that are fundamental to the Catholic ethos of the school.

Most Catholic primary schools have religion as a fundamental aspect of the school life: prayers in the morning , hymns at assembly, religion class daily.

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit innterms of inconvenience,commute or fees for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

Where would you advise someone in Killarney to send their child to school given that there out of the ten or so English language schools there isn't one that doesn't have a "Catholic ethos"?

Personally I would be in favour of the government removing the number one child abuse organisation in the land from anything to do with education in Ireland. Its a wonder that no-one has sued the government for reckless child endangerment by allowing members of the clergy and religious organisations to remain involved in the Irish educational system.

Your opinion that

Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

is reprehensible but its not as if we need more proof of the attitude some Catholic have to abusing children in Ireland. Dont blame the perpatrator, blame the victim.

Thanks for proving more evidence to people as to why they should keep their children away from the Catholic church as much as possible.

vicwatson

echo beach wrote: »

Many parents are sheep, following the herd. They don't go to Mass themselves but they don't want their kids to be the 'odd one out'.
If pupils had to 'opt-in' rather than 'opt-out' with parents having to put in a bit of effort it would be the other way around - a handful of kids making communion.

Completely agree.

vicwatson

JustAThought wrote: »

Its a bit unfair: you take up a place in a Catholic school yet don't want your child to participate in educational aspects that are fundamental to the Catholic ethos of the school.

Most Catholic primary schools have religion as a fundamental aspect of the school life: prayers in the morning , hymns at assembly, religion class daily.

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit innterms of inconvenience,commute or fees for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

Children's right to an education is enshrined in the constitution

byhookorbycrook

If enough parents want a change,then it will happen. Perhaps parents are sheep, but we don't know that for sure. Perhaps people are lazy, but again, we don't know that for sure either.
Gaelscoileanna were set up due to parental demand. Surely in a town the size of Killarney there would be enough people interested in setting up an ET?
The other issue of course, is that there are no secular primary schools. ET and other multi-denom schools do teach a form of religion.

Birroc

JustAThought wrote: »

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit innterms of inconvenience,commute or fees for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

That's actually quite hurtful. I never demanded special services & expenses.
It would be almost impossible for me to send my child to a non Catholic school where I live now.
After what the Catholic Church has done to children in the country, your attitude simply amazes me.

echo beach

68Murph68 wrote: »

I think things have changed a lot in the last five years. I know and have heard of a lot of new parents who would have been of the cultural Catholic type who I would have expected to get their child baptised to fit in who have skipped it.

I would expect the number opting out of religion in schools to rise sharply over the next 10 years.

Skipping having your child baptised is relatively easy, you only have to face down immediate family. It is a different matter to pull an eight year old out of what will be the biggest deal this year, what all their friends will be talking about.

I am a practising catholic who was happy to send my children to a catholic school, if I lived abroad I would probably seek one out, BUT I don't think a school is the place to prepare children for a sacrament. That is the responsibility of the parents and the church community. It isn't fair on parents who want to emphasise the religious aspect to have over half the class who don't even have a basic notion of how to behave in a church and only care about the social or fashion aspect. It isn't fair on teachers and it isn't fair on either group of children.

In England, even in private catholic schools, instruction takes place out of school hours and a relative told me that only children who write to the bishop requesting confirmation can be prepared for it. Her son refused to write and was never confirmed, despite attending a catholic primary and secondary school. He was warned that he can't be married in a catholic church without being confirmed but he, correctly in my opinion, decided that wasn't a good enough reason.

JustAThought

Birroc wrote: »

JustAThought wrote: »

If you disagree with these basic concepts don't go demanding special services & expenses for your child: take the responsibility and put in the effort yourself: enrol your child somewhere where you will buy-in to the philosophy of the school & if you have to take a hit innterms of inconvenience,commute or fees for your principles & beliefs so be it. Your child WILL suffer and be bullied : don't fool yourself otherwise.

That's actually quite hurtful. I never demanded special services & expenses.
It would be almost impossible for me to send my child to a non Catholic school where I live now.
After what the Catholic Church has done to children in the country, your attitude simply amazes me.

You are. Your child will not be allowed stand on a corridor by itself; special arrangements will have to be made for him/her; if s/he stats in the class while the religious " holy Communion" classes are going on special work &/or facilities will have to be made for him/her etc. And it's probably going to be the kne teacher that has 20 or 3o other children to mind that will have to take time out from all of them to give your child, at your demands, special attention.

Your final statement is profoundly shocking. If you truly believe that your child us at risk by attending a Catholic school, as your comment seems clearly to state, why send it there?

If you are prepared to put in the effort yourself and do the commute I'm sure you will find somewhere less terrifyingly Catholic & more suited to your desires. That way, other children won't have their classes disrupted by your lack of co-operation with the basic ethos of the school you have chosen to enrole your child in, & there will be less chance of your child feeling isolated, excluded & probably bullied because they are seen to be " different" etc.

Birroc

JustAThought wrote: »

You are. Your child will not be allowed stand on a corridor by itself; special arrangements will have to be made for him/her; if s/he stats in the class while the religious " holy Communion" classes are going on special work &/or facilities will have to be made for him/her etc. And it's probably going to be the kne teacher that has 20 or 3o other children to mind that will have to take time out from all of them to give your child, at your demands, special attention.

Your final statement is profoundly shocking. If you truly believe that your child us at risk by attending a Catholic school, as your comment seems clearly to state, why send it there?

If you are prepared to put in the effort yourself and do the commute I'm sure you will find somewhere less terrifyingly Catholic & more suited to your desires. That way, other children won't have their classes disrupted by your lack of co-operation with the basic ethos of the school you have chosen to enrole your child in, & there will be less chance of your child feeling isolated, excluded & probably bullied because they are seen to be " different" etc.

You must shock easy.

#1 There are several other kids opting out. There were 8 last year.

#2 I do not think my child is at risk in any way (you twisted my comment) - it is a great school and they have been extremely accommodating. The terrifying comment is just you being hysterical and a little weird.

#3 It is your attitude that amazes me, not mine. You don't seem to comprehend how parents might not want to be part of the Roman Catholic tradition in Ireland. As far as I am concerned, this is state school. Yes it has a Catholic ethos but the constitution says my child is entitled to an education not that it must be a Catholic education. Religion will be taken out of state schools given time but that's another days work.

#4 The logistics and costs involved in me finding an Educate Together school are such that I would need to sell my house and move to the city.

#5 The opting out kids sit at the back of the class doing homework while the communion kids are doing prep work. Simple.

Anyway this is my last post on this topic. Thanks for all the comments, you have been very helpful.

5uspect

JustAThought wrote: »

You are. Your child will not be allowed stand on a corridor by itself; special arrangements will have to be made for him/her; if s/he stats in the class while the religious " holy Communion" classes are going on special work &/or facilities will have to be made for him/her etc. And it's probably going to be the kne teacher that has 20 or 3o other children to mind that will have to take time out from all of them to give your child, at your demands, special attention.

Your final statement is profoundly shocking. If you truly believe that your child us at risk by attending a Catholic school, as your comment seems clearly to state, why send it there?

If you are prepared to put in the effort yourself and do the commute I'm sure you will find somewhere less terrifyingly Catholic & more suited to your desires. That way, other children won't have their classes disrupted by your lack of co-operation with the basic ethos of the school you have chosen to enrole your child in, & there will be less chance of your child feeling isolated, excluded & probably bullied because they are seen to be " different" etc.

Why should nearly all state funded schools be de-facto Catholic schools?
Why can't state funded schools be secular?

crusher000

Birroc wrote: »

You must shock easy.

#1 There are several other kids opting out. There were 8 last year.

#2 I do not think my child is at risk in any way (you twisted my comment) - it is a great school and they have been extremely accommodating. The terrifying comment is just you being hysterical and a little weird.

#3 It is your attitude that amazes me, not mine. You don't seem to comprehend how parents might not want to be part of the Roman Catholic tradition in Ireland. As far as I am concerned, this is state school. Yes it has a Catholic ethos but the constitution says my child is entitled to an education not that it must be a Catholic education. Religion will be taken out of state schools given time but that's another days work.

#4 The logistics and costs involved in me finding an Educate Together school are such that I would need to sell my house and move to the city.

#5 The opting out kids sit at the back of the class doing homework while the communion kids are doing prep work. Simple.

Anyway this is my last post on this topic. Thanks for all the comments, you have been very helpful.

I just want to say fair play to you for posting this topic. The old what will the neighbours think ehtos is alive and well. We live in a democracy and free country to practise whatever beliefs we have. Communion has turned into who has the best dress/suit on the day, money and off to the pub. Fairly christian beliefs alright. I will soon face my child coming into communion year and I would consider them not making it. My wife may not want to go with it but I will respect her wishes. We're both non pratising RC's.