Improvement to rail routes (EDIT: using existing network)

Neewbie_noob

Sorry mods if such a thread exists already, but I was reading a thread about suggested improvements to bus routes, and it got me thinking that the rail routes (although I very rarely use them) could be drastically improved.
What change(s) would you make if any??




Feel free to lock, mods, if there is already a thread / or if this is inappropriate.

Cookie_Monster

can... worms... everywhere....

CIE

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

can... worms... everywhere....

Either that or just trollin'. The handle seems to indicate it.

corktina

i think the answer is , they can't be radically improved without massive investment and we don't have any money. Some effort is being made to upgrade the Cork line,but will it bear fruit quickly enough to reverse the decline in rail passenger numbers?

Neewbie_noob

CIE wrote: »

The handle seems to indicate it.

I genuinely amn't trolling .. what do you mean by handle btw?

I'll get the ball rolling then. Commuter services from Dundalk to Dublin and Heuston onwards should be clockface. The commuter should only serve the DART stations at peak times. Iarnrod Eireann should bring in 2 storey trains like the Netherlands and Germany and France etc. These aren't actually much bigger than regular Irish Rail DMU engines, as when you enter the train, the lower storey is under the platform level and when you ascend the stairs to the higher level you aren't that much above the ground. Only problem I can see (apart from money) is resistance from unions for driving these new trains.

Irish rail should also introduce the monthly tickets that Dublin bus have, where you can 30 non-consecutive days of unlimited travel, instead of the 1 calendar month ticket that they currently have.

The Idyll Race

Finish the railway to Navan

Extend the Sligo railway to Donegal Town and the Derry railway to Letterkenny.

*ducks*

Neewbie_noob

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Extend the Sligo railway to Donegal Town and the Derry railway to Letterkenny.

*ducks*

You raise a good point, why is the only border crossing with IE on the Belfast line and why are there no train routes in donegal or Meath (apart from Gormanston or M3 Parkway / Dunboyne).

Heisenberg1

Make better use of what we have no more empty DMU,ICR,DART movements first early bird intercitys to terminate in Connolly for a start.

The Idyll Race

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

You raise a good point, why is the only border crossing with IE on the Belfast line and why are there no train routes in donegal or Meath (apart from Gormanston or M3 Parkway / Dunboyne).

Historical reasons going back to the period 1957-1960. The cross border routes were all operated by the Great Northern Railway, which remained a private company until 1953, when it was jointly purchased by Stormont and Dublin. The bulk of the railways in Donegal, which were quite extensive, were operated by a joint venture of the GNR and British Railways and were built to the secondary 3' gauge.

Stormont unilaterally closed in 1957 all the secondary main lines within Northern Ireland without consultation. That meant that the Dundalk - Clones - Enniskillen - Bundoran railway was severed at Beleek at one end and Clones at the other. The Cavan - Clones - Monaghan - Armagh - Portadown railway was severed at Glaslough and ran as a stub freight branch from Dundalk to Clones and Cavan and up to Monaghan. CIE closed the remaining stub from Bundoran - Ballyshannon - Beleek because for obvious reasons it was impossible to operate.

The 3' County Donegal Railways, which ran from Ballyshannon - Donegal - Stranorlar - Strabane, with branches from Strabane to Letterkenny and from Donegal to Killybegs, were closed by the joint committee and replaced by buses and lorries. CIE didn't fully take those over until 1971.

The very last passenger railway in County Donegal was the Great Northern main line from Derry to Portadown, closed by Stormont in 1965, but which ran through Carrigans and St. Johnston on route from Derry to Strabane. CIE owned the railway and stations in the Republic but services were operated by the Ulster Transport Authority.

I'm Donegal and you'll never shift me from the view that we were screwed by both governments on the rail issue!

n97 mini

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

Run all Dunboyne/M3 Parkway trains into Clonsilla only. Double the frequency of trains from Maynooth to compensate.

Electrify Maynooth line.

TadhgSk

Extend DART to Sallins

Neewbie_noob

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

Why? Is there not enough passengers getting on / off to justify a station there?

n97 mini

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

Why? Is there not enough passengers getting on / off to justify a station there?

In my opinion, no. But I'm sure someone will contradict me!

As regards NRP, it could actually be retained as a Park & Ride for specials, like sporting events, concerts etc.

Richard tea

There should be a train service to Donegal. Many the year I traveled on the bus for a 6 hour journey stopping once in Cavan.

corktina

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Wote

corktina wrote: »

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Double deck trains would be difficult to implement due to the Irish loading gauge - difficult but not impossible.

As to Donegal, why not? Two options - a line from Derry to Letterkenny would be possible and a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too. These would have to wait until funding made them possible but never say never.

I suspect Stormont would be a possible source of funding for a Derry Letterkenny line but having Translink as an all Ireland transport organisation would help greatly too.

Thirty years ago many people thought we would never have the motorway network we have now. Getting rail connections to Donegal is technically possible, we just need the political will to do it.

corktina

why not? because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost and we have no capital....

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal...and to be honest, Letterkenny is a small town with little or no potential traffic on offer. SO lets keep it realistic, if you want to start a thread about potential new lines do so, but this thread surely is about improving what we've already got.

dowlingm

Double deck trains are most often seen where the freight railways got clearance for double stack containers. Didn't happen in Ireland, or else you could have 201s pushpulling 8 double deckers (as long as HEP not needed), given that it would be similar enough to an F59PH (3000hp EMD710), which can handle 10, but given its 100mph gearing ratio 6-8 would probably be more realistic not to mention the need to extend platforms to 10 long. Bear in mind though double decker doesn't mean double capacity - maybe 30-50pc more because of stairs and other physical limitations. Many double deckers are sort of like pocket wagons but unlike the US/Canada Irish trains would be end loading from the high floor door and not able to have low floor mid-coach doors so dwell time at termini would be substantial.

The other thing to note about systems with tall loading gauges is how much of a pain in the ass that makes grade separation. Road over rail becomes far less common because you need maybe 20 feet above rail especially if contemplating double stack AND electric operation for the passenger bits at something like 25kV DC which is the de facto standard for new installs in North America now. Third rail still exists but liability issues (drunks wandering onto the line yet courts still awarding compensation) means railways don't want to have any more of it than they have to.

thomasj

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

I would disagree. I pass by navan road parkway station on the bus nearly every morning and the car park is nearly full.

Broombridge is not that busy but with dits plans for facilities right next to the station there certainly is merit for keeping it.

Run all Dunboyne/M3 Parkway trains into Clonsilla only. Double the frequency of trains from Maynooth to compensate.

I wouldn't jump that gun just yet! With hansfield still to open, there is certainly potential for m3 parkway line give it time and see what happens. At the moment the m3 parkway is running off 2 stations one of which would cost an arm and a leg.

The 3rd one yet to open is on a major town with access to fairly frequent bus connections (39/a).

If it does come to this connections need to be short for it to work.

Electrify Maynooth line.

Agreed!

I would also add that for maynooth line current last trains Monday to Saturday is 11:10pm. This should be pushed back to 11.30pm.

Sundays are much worse with the last train to maynooth at 8.45pm. Later trains on Sunday are badly needed!

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

can we keep the fantasy ideas out of this perleez....double deck trains and new routes to Donegal are in this territory....

Are you a mod?

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

why not? because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost and we have no capital....

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal...and to be honest, Letterkenny is a small town with little or no potential traffic on offer. SO lets keep it realistic, if you want to start a thread about potential new lines do so, but this thread surely is about improving what we've already got.

Do you know anything about Letterkenny? Small town it is not.

The Idyll Race

Wote wrote: »

Double deck trains would be difficult to implement due to the Irish loading gauge - difficult but not impossible.

As to Donegal, why not? Two options - a line from Derry to Letterkenny would be possible and a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too. These would have to wait until funding made them possible but never say never.

I suspect Stormont would be a possible source of funding for a Derry Letterkenny line but having Translink as an all Ireland transport organisation would help greatly too.

Thirty years ago many people thought we would never have the motorway network we have now. Getting rail connections to Donegal is technically possible, we just need the political will to do it.

The road lobby want to keep saying never. They are frightened of any positive news for the railway and are itching to close the lot.

The Idyll Race

n97 mini wrote: »

Delete Broombridge and Navan Road Parkway stations.

What sense would there be in buggering up the future Luas BXD connection by closing Broombridge? There are no problems that could not be solved by the Garda Siochana lifting a few little scrotes.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost

no it couldn't, road tax road toals, all what i like to call (an infrastructural subsidy) a railway has more potential to offer faster journey times then a bus ever could. actually a railway from either sligo or derry to donegall might have been more worth while looking at then the WRC. but i would agree such railway won't be built.

corktina wrote: »

and we have no capital....

actually we do but its going to the banks. all though whether you could call that money (capital) is another debate.

corktina wrote: »

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal.

to be honest we'l be lucky to have dart and commuter in 10 years never mind sligo cork bellfast rosslare tralee and so on with IE in charge.

end of the road

what rail routes need are faster speeds and journey times, along with reasonable fairs
(yes i'm aware you can get cheep fairs but if people want to go that day they can be expensive) (also their will probably be no investment to bring up journey times on lines apart from the cork line for now anyway) leaving our railways to rott to eventually shut down would be a very bad mistake, you will never see busses traveling at 125 mph (and rightly so theirs no way i would travel on one doing that speed and i would think most people wouldn't either, also battery/electric busses are a while off yet, the technology may be there at the moment but ireland will leave it a long time before implementing it)
to be honest should all the railways close their won't be many who will try do anything about it anyway, we let the government away with anything and everything so why would railways closing be any different?

n97 mini

Wote wrote: »

a line from Sligo to Letterkenny might too.

I'd campaign against this. It's cost more than Metro North and serve 1% of the population, who wouldn't want a tortuous journey via Sligo to anywhere.

AngryLips

It's clear that the only solution to the nation's railways is maglev.

n97 mini

thomasj wrote: »

I wouldn't jump that gun just yet! With hansfield still to open, there is certainly potential for m3 parkway line give it time and see what happens. At the moment the m3 parkway is running off 2 stations one of which would cost an arm and a leg.

Currently the M3 Parkway branch gets half of all trains yet it serves Dunboyne (population 7,000 and no major industries) and a carpark (unknown population). Maynooth (population 11,000 and a university) and Leixlip (population 15,000 and two of the biggest employers in the state) get the other half. M3 Parkway should not be getting half of all services, and should be run as a branch line.

n97 mini

The Idyll Race wrote: »

What sense would there be in buggering up the future Luas BXD connection by closing Broombridge?

Luas BXD doesn't exist! If it ever does, then sure, build a proper mainline station at Broombridge.

n97 mini

thomasj wrote: »

I would also add that for maynooth line current last trains Monday to Saturday is 11:10pm. This should be pushed back to 11.30pm.

Sundays are much worse with the last train to maynooth at 8.45pm. Later trains on Sunday are badly needed!

+10000

Last train to Maynooth 20:45 on Sunday, yet last train to Dundalk is 23:37.

The Idyll Race

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd campaign against this. It's cost more than Metro North and serve 1% of the population, who wouldn't want a tortuous journey via Sligo to anywhere.

No-one has ever asked the people of Donegal about railways. You might get an answer that you wouldn't want to hear..

161,137 people at the last census is not 1% of the population. Do the math.

dowlingm

110km from Sligo to Letterkenny. 133km or so the old route via Strabane and Omagh. Also - unless you want to backtrack to Collooney you have to get across to the other side of Sligo Harbour to get started.

Letterkenny-Derry is 38km via the Lough Swilly Railway route but once again you have to get across a harbour to link up with the rest of the island, plus much of the alignment appears to have been built over particularly near Derry itself - though if a new bridge was built then a new approach would likely be needed anyway probably. "Best" option would be to do a handbrake turn northeast of Newtownmountcunningham for Killea and head into Derry to Londonderry Foyle Road on the Londonderry and Enniskillen - but still on the wrong bank for connection to the network - plus the Foyle Valley Railway would have to be evicted.

Oh and the money involved would probably pay to raise the Sligo, Galway, Waterford and Tralee lines to 125mph, never mind 100.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

110km from Sligo to Letterkenny. 133km or so the old route via Strabane and Omagh. Also - unless you want to backtrack to Collooney you have to get across to the other side of Sligo Harbour to get started.

Letterkenny-Derry is 38km via the Lough Swilly Railway route but once again you have to get across a harbour to link up with the rest of the island, plus much of the alignment appears to have been built over particularly near Derry itself - though if a new bridge was built then a new approach would likely be needed anyway probably. "Best" option would be to do a handbrake turn northeast of Newtownmountcunningham for Killea and head into Derry to Londonderry Foyle Road on the Londonderry and Enniskillen - but still on the wrong bank for connection to the network - plus the Foyle Valley Railway would have to be evicted.

Oh and the money involved would probably pay to raise the Sligo, Galway, Waterford and Tralee lines to 125mph, never mind 100.

The Foyle Valley Railway has been inactive since 2000, when Derry City Council installed a cycleway beside the track and it was consequently closed by their Health and Safety people. The museum is only open sporadically and the track is disused.

The Lower Deck of the Craigavon Bridge was originally for interconnecting the four railway termini in Derry, it would not be impossible to reconvert it and provide a cross river connection to the Waterside station. There could then be a new Foyle Road halt for the cityside.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

110km from Sligo to Letterkenny. 133km or so the old route via Strabane and Omagh. Also - unless you want to backtrack to Collooney you have to get across to the other side of Sligo Harbour to get started.

Letterkenny-Derry is 38km via the Lough Swilly Railway route but once again you have to get across a harbour to link up with the rest of the island, plus much of the alignment appears to have been built over particularly near Derry itself - though if a new bridge was built then a new approach would likely be needed anyway probably. "Best" option would be to do a handbrake turn northeast of Newtownmountcunningham for Killea and head into Derry to Londonderry Foyle Road on the Londonderry and Enniskillen - but still on the wrong bank for connection to the network - plus the Foyle Valley Railway would have to be evicted.

Oh and the money involved would probably pay to raise the Sligo, Galway, Waterford and Tralee lines to 125mph, never mind 100.

There always seems to be a bottomless pit of money for compo for landowners for road schemes...

Wote

corktina wrote: »

why not? because a connecting bus could do the same job at almost no capital cost and we have no capital....

tbh you'll be lucky to have a rail line in Sligo AT ALL in ten years time, never mind an extention to Co Donegal...and to be honest, Letterkenny is a small town with little or no potential traffic on offer. SO lets keep it realistic, if you want to start a thread about potential new lines do so, but this thread surely is about improving what we've already got.

Obviously never been to Letterkenny in the last ten years then. It's a sprawling place and those who know the stats well will be able to say what the population is.

But this isn't just about serviing the people of Letterkenny with a railway connection, it's also about opening up the North West to tourist traffic and providing an alternative method of getting freight up there other than by road.

Motorways and Railways aren't and should never be mutually exclusive in any case.

As to the existing network, not only would I upgrade the network to cope with 160 km+ speeds, I'd also double it. Double it everywhere it's single. Otherwise what's the point of updating the speeds if the train frequency is limited by only having one train in one direction on a single block?

Wote

dowlingm wrote: »

110km from Sligo to Letterkenny. 133km or so the old route via Strabane and Omagh. Also - unless you want to backtrack to Collooney you have to get across to the other side of Sligo Harbour to get started.

Letterkenny-Derry is 38km via the Lough Swilly Railway route but once again you have to get across a harbour to link up with the rest of the island, plus much of the alignment appears to have been built over particularly near Derry itself - though if a new bridge was built then a new approach would likely be needed anyway probably. "Best" option would be to do a handbrake turn northeast of Newtownmountcunningham for Killea and head into Derry to Londonderry Foyle Road on the Londonderry and Enniskillen - but still on the wrong bank for connection to the network - plus the Foyle Valley Railway would have to be evicted.

Oh and the money involved would probably pay to raise the Sligo, Galway, Waterford and Tralee lines to 125mph, never mind 100.

Translink and the Stormont government would be key stakeholders in the line so I wouldn't assume the whole cost would be borne by the Irish state.

There may be scope to get the line to terminate at the old CDR station iif the line came in via Lifford and Strabane and maybe then extend the old NCC line across to the old CDR station? Or else aim for a new station on the GNR site and have a track running down the centre of the lower deck of the Craigavon bridge to connect the Letterkenny line with the rest of the Translink network.

The Foyle Valley Railway is as another poster has pointed out, virtually extinct, but this does open up an opportunity to re-open the old GNR station as a new central terminal for Derry.

Wote

Of course if the link were built between Derry and Letterkenny and then onto Sligo then the whole concept behind the WRC really comes to fruition. Being able to run trains all the way from Belfast down to Limerick and Cork via Sligo and Ennis would really open up the North West and the West. Of course the Burma Road between Colooney and Claremorris would need to be relaid.

In addition the section between Rosslare and Waterford should be restored - it's madness that this line was allowed to close. Rosslare has key ferry links between Ireland, Britain and the Continent which should have good rail connections. How about Motorail connections between Rosslare and Kerry?

There is a lot of potential with our railways that we seem to miss out on or ignore. What we do need is some real blue sky thinking about our railways in order to think the unthinkable and get our country out of the rut we find ourselves in.

Lapin

Wote wrote: »

Getting rail connections to Donegal is technically possible, we just need the political will to do it.

...........And the passengers to use it.

corktina

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Do you know anything about Letterkenny? Small town it is not.

in terms of buillding a railway to it, its a small town.... when we cant even build a line to Dublin Airport, talk iof rail building in Donegal is lunacy.

corktina

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Are you a mod?

Always wanted to be but by the time I could afford a scooter, it was too late....

The Idyll Race

Lapin wrote: »

...........And the passengers to use it.

Letterkenny to Derry in a recent report commissioned by CIE scored better than the existing services Manulla - Ballina, Limerick - Waterford and Limerick - Ballybrophy.

It also scored better than other suggested rail services Midleton - Youghal, Tuam - Claremorris, Mullingar - Athlone, a direct Limerick curve from Charleville and the Drogheda - Navan branch.

It's on the Irish Rail website.

n97 mini

The Idyll Race wrote: »

No-one has ever asked the people of Donegal about railways. You might get an answer that you wouldn't want to hear..

Of course they'd say yes to a railway, who wouldn't.

The Idyll Race wrote: »

161,137 people at the last census is not 1% of the population. Do the math.

MN was to serve Dublin airport, of which there were 18.7 million journeys through in 2011. Population of Donegal is 0.8% of that.

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

in terms of buillding a railway to it, its a small town.... when we cant even build a line to Dublin Airport, talk iof rail building in Donegal is lunacy.

So you say. But there is no logical reason why building railways must be a zero-sum game because you say so.

corktina

god save us from traiinspotter mentality....railways everywhere to any remote corner, never mind the economics, Have some of you learnt nothing from the WRC?

dowlingm

Look, this is nothing against Donegal as such but the principal advantage of rail is MASS transport, whether that be of goods or of freight, or FAST transportation, much faster than the parallel road. A rail alignment to Derry (never mind Sligo) would likely be similar to the WRC in speed because of topographical limitations and the demand upgrade would likely be limited over the existing service because of that. Building an expensive railway alignment good for maybe 50 or 60mph and then demanding a 100mph 22000 class or a 90mph C4K to run over it at perhaps 1/3 or less its capacity is nothing short of a vanity at a time when people are seeing existing services of all kinds, not merely transport, cut to the bone.

But I find advocates for a Donegal railway rarely have time for reality checks - it's generally parity of esteem and GAA jerseys all the way. Here's another of the sort.

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

god save us from traiinspotter mentality....railways everywhere to any remote corner, never mind the economics, Have some of you learnt nothing from the WRC?

Did I ever say anything about motive power? I'm not remotely interested in spotting trains but I am interested in infrastructure and particularly in a part of the country that has been neglected because of partition.

Over 161,000 people centreing on two towns, Donegal for the south of the county and Letterkenny in the north come to over 80,000 each.

You may not like the facts but we exist.

Wote

corktina wrote: »

in terms of buillding a railway to it, its a small town.... when we cant even build a line to Dublin Airport, talk iof rail building in Donegal is lunacy.

Is it lunacy? Don't think so. Think for one minute about the bigger picture. Get out of the 1950s mentality and start thinking about how the country needs to be literally built up again from where we are now.

Yes, we need a rail line to Dublin Airport too. We need to think about a transport strategy for the country, not just in terms of how a private bus operator can cream off some inter city traffic for profit.

Letterkenny is one of Ireland's fastest growing urban areas. We need to also ensure that the state is managed for all its citizens, not just those who happen to live in Cork or Dublin.

I particularly think the building of a rail line to Letterkenny from Derry is another opportunity to strengthen cross border co-operation and a golden opportunity to open up one of Ireland's most beautiful counties to more tourist traffic.

Wote

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Did I ever say anything about motive power? I'm not remotely interested in spotting trains but I am interested in infrastructure and particularly in a part of the country that has been neglected because of partition.

Over 161,000 people centreing on two towns, Donegal for the south of the county and Letterkenny in the north come to over 80,000 each.

You may not like the facts but we exist.

Well said.

Jamie2k9

Over 161,000 people centreing on two towns, Donegal for the south of the county and Letterkenny in the north come to over 80,000 each.

You may not like the facts but we exist.

Then same could be said for Limerick-Ennis-Galway and look what a mess thats turned out to be....

Would support Derry-Letterkenny/Donegal more as it would have more use and would be better all round IMO.

corktina

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Did I ever say anything about motive power? I'm not remotely interested in spotting trains but I am interested in infrastructure and particularly in a part of the country that has been neglected because of partition.

Over 161,000 people centreing on two towns, Donegal for the south of the county and Letterkenny in the north come to over 80,000 each.

You may not like the facts but we exist.

check the times...im not clairvoyant...

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

Look, this is nothing against Donegal as such but the principal advantage of rail is MASS transport, whether that be of goods or of freight, or FAST transportation, much faster than the parallel road. A rail alignment to Derry (never mind Sligo) would likely be similar to the WRC in speed because of topographical limitations and the demand upgrade would likely be limited over the existing service because of that. Building an expensive railway alignment good for maybe 50 or 60mph and then demanding a 100mph 22000 class or a 90mph C4K to run over it at perhaps 1/3 or less its capacity is nothing short of a vanity at a time when people are seeing existing services of all kinds, not merely transport, cut to the bone.

But I find advocates for a Donegal railway rarely have time for reality checks - it's generally parity of esteem and GAA jerseys all the way. Here's another of the sort.

I'm not advocating rail links tomorrow, and I've said nothing about GAA jerseys or whatever nonsense you are having yourself.

Why do certain posters appear to have an imperative to shout down any talk about expanding the railways?