Do you feel you have to defend women.

Do you feel you have to defend woman particularly with the ladies lounge or even in every life. To be honest in real life there have been time when I have defended women because it somewhat annoys me when people say a woman behaved in a certain way just because thats the way women behave ( I have done this even though I know the action of the woman concerned is exactly the way a lot of women behave )

I have see this a bit on boards even though a certain way of communicating/behaving is well know culturally/socially as typically female you will have people replying no its not. The thread about a women boss or working with women is an example of this.

It remind me of the argument that behaviors like girl hate/slut shaming/competition for male attention etc are cause by society not providing women with valued social roles in other words if society was different women would behave different( better ) I think that is just wrong because it dose not take account of human nature. By the way I think women are amazing but I do not thing we are saints.

xDramaxQueenx

No, I dont feel the need to defend women.

Ellsbells

I do feel, on this forum that I do need to defend certain choices. There seems to be a huge bias on various threads against anything remotely Celtic tiger-esque e.g. Big weddings, diamond rings and a very strong bias against women with kids.

There doesn't seem to be much live and let live going on.

Bassic

I feel that boards is very misogynistic in the main. As an outsider looking in I feel that female posters get a rough ride and feminism, as a topic is at times treated with disdain.

Dovakhin

I do tend to defend women sometimes, but it's more because I find silly sexist opinions ("Dem girlz r so dum!!!!") irritating more than anything else.

larrymickdick

I do - I find sometimes guys can say stupid general marks about women without even thinking about it - I draw their attention to what they've said. I make very sarcastic "in general" comments about men right back at them and they normally get the hint.

I used to find that people used to comment on women being "slags" or "sluts" etc for having good sex life but as I've gotten older these comments are few and far between and mainly coming from women themselves. I believe you want to have a lot of sex go for it - why should men be the only ones to able to sleep around? I just think - either man or woman - if you are hurting people while doing it I think it's wrong.

My boss calls me a rottweiler though - most people don't do women bashing around me - think they're too scared to.

meeeeh

No I definitely don't feel the need to defend women, but I dislike stereotyping or generalisations of different groups so I might defend one of those groups. (btw I posted before under less anonymous nickname).

I am not talking about generalizations or stereotypes which should be challenged, I am talking about behaviors that have been well documented and are backed up by researched and are gender specific ( female ) but are perhaps the less likable traits of a gender.

openup

I don't think I understand. I feel I have to defend women because the "A woman did something once, it was obviously because she was a woman not that she was just a bítch. Therefore all women are like this" attitude prevails on here.

What traits do you mean?

Millicent

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not talking about generalizations or stereotypes which should be challenged, I am talking about behaviors that have been well documented and are backed up by researched and are gender specific ( female ) but are perhaps the less likable traits of a gender.

The innateness of gender traits, though a popular belief at the moment, has yet to be proven conclusively. I would be very wary of ascribing those traits based on biology, if that's what you mean?

For example if someone says they have had poor experience of working with women or of having a woman boss, people will immediately come back with I have had bad experience with men as well telling the original Post it not about women behaving badly its a about people behaving badly..and that response is fair enough but the original poster was talking about women and looking for exploration of what its like to work with female teams or female bosses, she was not engaging in stereotyping she is explaining her situation as regards to bitching gossiping and jealousy by other women, instead of an exploration of why women behave like that in a work situation you get a men do too response as a way of defending women.

Whether its nature or nurture if for another thread

Millicent

mariaalice wrote: »

For example if someone says they have had poor experience of working with women or of having a woman boss, people will immediately come back with I have had bad experience with men as well telling the original Post it not about women behaving badly its a about people behaving badly..and that response is fair enough but the original poster was talking about women and looking for exploration of what its like to work with female teams or female bosses, she was not engaging in stereotyping she is explaining her situation as regards to bitching gossiping and jealousy by other women, instead of an exploration of why women behave like that in a work situation you get a men do too response as a way of defending women.

Whether its nature or nurture if for another thread

I get what you mean -- I think it's to maintain balance and it's necessary to stop one group being attacked over another needlessly. I do find myself defending women in those instances (and men too) to make sure that a whole group isn't getting tarred with the one brush which is what inevitably happens in threads like the work one.

Sonics2k

I would defend a woman if her opinion was deserving of such, just as I would point out a terrible comment/argument when I see it.

Would I defend someone just because they were female? Not a chance.

LeeHoffmann

I defend any group of people against lazy generalisations and demeaning stereotypes. Do I defend individual women because they are women? No

Bassic

I think that essentialisms are limiting. The fear of the feminine inherent in boards has shown me that narrow definitions of gender are alive and well in Ireland. Rather than asking do we need to defend women we should be asking ourselves how can we counteract the narrow boxes we place woman in...there is more to woman than virgin, whore and crone.

Ellsbells

Bassic wrote: »

is more to woman than virgin, whore and crone.

I agree. Isn't it interesting that there is no male word for mistress... Why is that?

MrGeneric

Bassic wrote: »

...feminism is treated with at best disdain and in the majority of cases as the cause of all the ills in the world.

How is this anything other than an outright lie?

Bassic

MrGeneric wrote: »

How is this anything other than an outright lie?

The post is my opinion based on my observations I would like if you could refrain from calling me a liar thank you kindly.

sky2424

No I don't defend females as a whole. I defend myself or individuals, regardless of sex, where needs be.

I'm female and I do feel at times that females can be uber sensitive and take something said in jest to be an direct insult. I'd like to think I can take a joke and treat something as trivial where appropriate. Take for example the classis 'female drivers are crap'...its a ridiculous statement and so I'd take it with a pinch of salt. I wouldnt feel that Id need to defend females as a whole. I may make a throwaway comment in response but wouldnt necessary feel like I had to respond, purely because the comment in itself is exaggerated. Aside from that I hate drama!

cantdecide

Bassic wrote: »

I think that essentialisms are limiting. The fear of the feminine inherent in boards has shown me that narrow definitions of gender are alive and well in Ireland. Rather than asking do we need to defend women we should be asking ourselves how can we counteract the narrow boxes we place woman in...there is more to woman than virgin, whore and crone.

We're all in narrow boxes. Whether you're old, young, big, small, skinny or fat and so on and so on. We should only be responsible for our individual behaviour or misbehaviour. I don't accept that boards.ie nurtures a culture of actual lazy generalisations outside of comedic value in AH for example. Quite the contrary, IMO.

MrGeneric

Bassic wrote: »

The post is my opinion based on my observations I would like if you could refrain from calling me a liar thank you kindly.

I asked how your post was not a lie, in essence asking you to back up your claim. You did not do this. You can not do this. I didn't call you a liar. If that's truly your opinion, and not just an ugly mix of opinion and gross exaggeration, then your opinion is wrong.

Where are you observing that the majority of people blame feminism for all of the ills in the world? A view so extreme I have never heard it espoused anywhere, let alone on this forum. It does not exist, save in you.

Thank you kindly.

Wibbs

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I defend any group of people against lazy generalisations and demeaning stereotypes. Do I defend individual women because they are women? No

Ditto.

cantdecide wrote: »

I don't accept that boards.ie nurtures a culture of actual lazy generalisations outside of comedic value in AH for example. Quite the contrary, IMO.

I'd largely agree with this. The demographics of Boards is much more slanted towards the male, but outside of a tiny fraction of the hundreds of forums on the site where you do on occasion see daftness - which by the by is a remarkably small minority considering the sheer number of Boardsies, 9 times outa 10 said daftness is reported by users and actioned by mods* - I don't see this overarching fear of the feminine and I certainly don't see feminism being blamed in the "majority of cases as the cause of all the ills in the world". The banks/fianna fail/the Irish/the PC brigade/Ze Germanz/The EU/America/Catholic church[delete as applicable] maybe. Joking aside, I'd see at least two of that lot come up on a near daily basis and waaaaay before Feminism/Women being blamed for anything would.

Fair enough it's an opinion and observation, but I'm really not seeing it to the degree suggested. Hey maybe I'm missing something, wouldn't be the first time






*increasingly so as the recent sexism in After Hours feedback thread highlighted. What it also highlighted was that while there was robust debate and disagreement going back and forth, outside of a couple of men(one subsequently sitebanned for similar in the past) the general gist was overall that "being a dick" to or about women as a gender was most certainly not on.

Wibbs

*Mod hat on* OK folks we're having a discussion here, no need for us to fall out over it.

Morag

The all women are stuff pisses me off, it's bull**** and lazy assumptions.

Sonics2k

Sharrow wrote: »

The all women are stuff pisses me off, it's bull**** and lazy assumptions.

But assumptions are made about all people, Mexicans are lazy, Irish are drunks, women can't use power tools and men can't cook.

It's stupid, and please understand I'm not trying to make this into a "oh well it happens to us too" thing, it's just another useless stereotype.

As I said in my last post, I'll defend a person based on their opinion or personality, not their gender/race etc.

Wibbs

Sonics2k wrote: »

But assumptions are made about all people, Mexicans are lazy, Irish are drunks, women can't use power tools and men can't cook.

Oh oh, that makes me a Mexican Irish woman then

It's stupid, and please understand I'm not trying to make this into a "oh well it happens to us too" thing, it's just another useless stereotype.

Ah no S FWIW I don't see the usual "whataboutery" in your take, that said it's the Ladies Lounge so the discussion is on the basis of that and how folks hereabouts feel about defending women as a subject.

Eve_Dublin

I defend women but I only feel the need to do so here on Boards.

eviltwin

Women are an easy target. Some of the things I have heard about women would never be allowed on the grounds of race etc but women seem to be fair game. And if as a woman you try and defend your sex and by extension yourself against it you get even more abuse - you don't have a sense of humour, you can't take a joke etc

I don't see much of it in real life but I see a lot of it on boards and I hate it.

cantdecide

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I defend women but I only feel the need to do so here on Boards.

eviltwin wrote: »

Women are an easy target. Some of the things I have heard about women would never be allowed on the grounds of race etc but women seem to be fair game. And if as a woman you try and defend your sex and by extension yourself against it you get even more abuse - you don't have a sense of humour, you can't take a joke etc

I don't see much of it in real life but I see a lot of it on boards and I hate it.

Let's see some examples in case the mods wish to act on them...

Eve_Dublin

cantdecide wrote: »

Let's see some examples in case the mods wish to act on them...

I've better things to be doing with my weekends then trawling through Boards looking for examples of sexism for the love of jaysus!

Edit: And mods always acted on it. No problems there.

Bassic

MrGeneric wrote: »

I asked how your post was not a lie, in essence asking you to back up your claim. You did not do this. You can not do this. I didn't call you a liar. If that's truly your opinion, and not just an ugly mix of opinion and gross exaggeration, then your opinion is wrong.

Where are you observing that the majority of people blame feminism for all of the ills in the world? A view so extreme I have never heard it espoused anywhere, let alone on this forum. It does not exist, save in you.

Thank you kindly.

As per request of the mod I have no desire to engage in a flame war or personalise my posts and at the end of the day we don't know each other.Rather than debate about the semantics of lies/ liars etc I will, of course, take you at your word that you did not intend to call me a liar. Please read that in the tone it is intended.

Again, I am basing it on what I have observed on boards, granted there is more than a touch of hyperbole in my post but I was using that to foreground that certain posters (not you) and threads can be characterised by anti-feminist (IMO) ideas and done in a nasty mannerIn a real world setting I find the anti-female/anti-feminist ideals of the Tea Party movement to be an example of a large swathe of people blaming feminism for societies ills. I would also be of the opinion that the RC church in Ireland is an institution that practices inequality in general and particularly in not allowing woman to become priests, bishops and indeed pope.

There is a particular paper that is distributed in churches in Ireland that is vehemently anti-feminist, anti-liberal and anti-homosexual, this particular publication is distributed to houses throughout the country. I have observed it in my interaction with history, I feel our constitution enshrines the idea that woman should remain in the home. The laundries, the treatment of women by doctors, the fact my mother had to be churched after she gave birth and the way in which women are given a few paragraphs in history books in our schools would be a representation, consciously or otherwise, that feminism has been much maligned in society.

As per the charter of Boards I am unable to mention other groups but in TLL I have seen a lot of female posters having to defend they way they were treated or prove that they have experienced sexism to other posters ( again you have not done this). Finally, as a man, I have to look in the mirror and ask 'have I been misogynistic? and at times I have been. I do understand that for every point I have made there will be another poster that can say 'well what about this? Or what about that? as a counter-argument and I appreciate that but again all of the above is my personal opinion, experience and observation.

Just to clarify: the post I made saying feminism is to blame for all societies ills was a bit tongue in cheek and not to be taken literally. Blame my writing skills.

Morag

MrGeneric wrote: »

Where are you observing that the majority of people blame feminism for all of the ills in the world? A view so extreme I have never heard it espoused anywhere, let alone on this forum. It does not exist, save in you.

Thank you kindly.

Have you not read anything by John Waters in the indo over the last 10 years?

cantdecide

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I've better things to be doing with my weekends then trawling through Boards looking for examples of sexism for the love of jaysus! Mods: And mods always acted on it. No problems there.

If you don't feel you need to qualify your statement, you can't reasonably expect accept your stance then.

If the mods are doing a great job, what does *wading in contribute?

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

*I defend women but I only feel the need to do so here on Boards.

IMO some people come to Boards in part to be outraged...

Giselle

cantdecide wrote: »

IMO some people come to Boards in part to be outraged...

IMO some people come to Boards in part to tell others they have no right to be outraged.

Bassic

Sharrow wrote: »

Have you not read anything by John Waters in the indo over the last 10 years?

Waters would be one, Mary Kenny, David Quinn and Youth Defence would spring to mind also. Todd Akin made some disgusting comments recently likewise George Gallaway. A red C poll in the Irish Examiner found some disturbing ideas on rape:

The Red C opinion poll revealed 30% think a victim is in some way responsible if she flirts with a man, one in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes, 38% believe a woman is partially to blame if she walks through a deserted area and 10% believe a woman is entirely to blame if she previously had an unspecified number of different sexual partners — presumably, more than one.

The treatment of women under Sharia law is another example that comes to mind.

Wibbs

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Edit: And mods always acted on it. No problems there.

Which shows the system works which is a good thing.

Looking broadly across various parts of Boards over the years in the context of this thread, I've certainly seen lazy generalisations all the way up to outright sexism. I would add however that it's a very small minority. There's a much larger group of posters(mostly male because of the demographics) that are pretty quick to call such stuff when it does come up. Indeed on a regular basis you see some posters complain/note/bitch that Boards is "too PC" and "liberal". Boards IMHO and IME is far more centre left wing liberal leaning than the Irish mainstream.

eviltwin wrote:

I don't see much of it in real life but I see a lot of it on boards and I hate it.

Funny enough I'd most certainly hear it a lot more in real life than on Boards, among men from various backgrounds and ages.

Sharrow wrote: »

Have you not read anything by John Waters in the indo over the last 10 years?

Indeed, however that's one hack on a "newspaper" with more hacks than a TB ward. Bassic was suggesting Boards was cut through with the same stuff, which is being polite about it pretty highly and I do mean highly debatable. Funny you mention Waters in particular as his opinions are about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit on Boards, so he'd have few acolytes here.

Bassic wrote: »

Again, I am basing it on what I have observed on boards, granted there is more than a touch of hyperbole in my post

More than a touch alright. There's hyperbole to make ones point, but when it strays well within the bounds of "ah here, c'mon" it tends to make a joke of a valid point that may be hiding somewhere in the background.

In a real world setting I find the anti-female/anti-feminist ideals of the Tea Party movement to be an example of a large swathe of people blaming feminism for societies ills. I would also be of the opinion that the RC church in Ireland is an institution that practices inequality in general and particularly in not allowing woman to become priests, bishops and indeed pope.

And to follow on from my reply to Sharrow; on this site try cranking up a thread in support of the tea party and see how far you get before you're taken apart point by point or simply laughed at. Threads about that gobshíte from the same political end of the spectrum who recently prattled on about rape a good example. Scorn and complete ridicule were the order of the day. The church? The Catholic church is despised to the point of pantomime on Boards. It's considered by many, if not a majority to be the whipping boy for all the current ills of this nation(dubiously). So again your original post looks a bit histrionic and inaccurate on that point.

As per the charter of Boards I am unable to mention other groups but in TLL I have seen a lot of female posters having to defend they way they were treated or prove that they have experienced sexism to other posters

Then report the posts. When that has come up it's been vigorously hopped on. Shít we've taken flak around here from a small bunch of vocal male posters that we're exclusionary man haters who stifle debate.

cantdecide wrote: »

IIMO some people come to Boards in part to be outraged...

OR?

Giselle wrote: »

IMO some people come to Boards in part to tell others they have no right to be outraged.

For my money anyway at certain times it's six of one half dozen of the other.

cantdecide

Giselle wrote: »

IMO some people come to Boards in part to tell others they have no right to be outraged.

On a serious note: I've assumed this was a bit of a jab. Would you have posted the above if we weren't discussing a gender issue? Would that have been a point worth stating if I were a woman?

Apart from the fact that it's all a bit swings and roundabouts, I think all of a sudden I think I've become the male oppressor... so this is the essence of the topic right?

Bassic

Wibbs just on the tea party etc I mentioned them as examples of outside of Boards. As for the modding I have no problems there either again it was just an example As for the hyperbole I have mentioned it twice that it was not meant to be taken literally. I thought that was clear in my post (again blame my writing) obviously it was not clear, if it is dragging things off topic I will cheerfully remove it. Note: I have edited the post. Apologies to the OP for dragging it off topic.

Eve_Dublin

cantdecide wrote: »

If you don't feel you need to qualify your statement, you can't reasonably expect accept your stance then.

If the mods are doing a great job, what does *wading in contribute?



IMO some people come to Boards in part to be outraged...

I agree with this part. I said I defend it and not that it was the right thing to do.


Do you want examples of sexism? You realistically expect me to trawl through Boards right now and find it? Dublin are playing in an hour so no can do, I'm afraid.

And what is my stance exactly? I hardly gave much away about it in that one sentence.

I said I feel the need to defend women on Boards, I never said they need to be defended or that it was the right thing to do and it often gets me into arguments I'd rather not have. I've made a conscious effort not to lately. I believe now that reporting the post is the best course of action because I trust the mods more now than I ever have, actually. I didn't always feel that way though.

I come to Boards to pass the time and am fairly easily outraged anyway and not just on the topic of sexism. Most of my time spent on here is idle chit-chat and not arguing believe it or not, so I don't come on here looking for it. When it crops up, I defend women. It's what I do. Call it a bad habit from the times when misogynists (the few of them that there was), were allowed run amok a little more than now.

The title of the thread was "do you feel the need to defend women on Boards" and I said gave my honest answer.

Giselle

cantdecide wrote: »

On a serious note: I've assumed this was a bit of a jab. Would you have posted the above if we weren't discussing a gender issue? Would that have been a point worth stating if I were a woman?

Apart from the fact that it's all a bit swings and roundabouts, I think all of a sudden I think I've become the male oppressor... so this is the essence of the topic right?

Its not a personal jab: its my observation. I'm just giving my opinion in response to you giving yours.

I'm neither painting you as a male oppressor, nor positioning myself as a female oppressor. I have no interest in your gender.

Stheno

I tend not ever to defend individual examples of behaviour, but will defend stereotypes that can be disproven.

I've often been taken for a male poster on here not in TLL but elsewhere and tbh it doesn't bother me.

In TLL I have had people challenge me, and when I've given non gender specific examples they assumed I'm male or didn't get a job, and when I've posted otherwise it doesn't matter.

To be honest, you can get very biased posters on here with views that will not change regardless, much like the real world.

confusticated

mariaalice wrote: »

For example if someone says they have had poor experience of working with women or of having a woman boss, people will immediately come back with I have had bad experience with men as well telling the original Post it not about women behaving badly its a about people behaving badly..and that response is fair enough but the original poster was talking about women and looking for exploration of what its like to work with female teams or female bosses, she was not engaging in stereotyping she is explaining her situation as regards to bitching gossiping and jealousy by other women, instead of an exploration of why women behave like that in a work situation you get a men do too response as a way of defending women.

Whether its nature or nurture if for another thread

I think that one is fair enough though. I mean, if people genuinely have had bad experiences with male bosses but not with female, or if they've had bad experiences with both, or only good experiences with female bosses, naturally enough they're going to say so. I mean, you can want to discuss what it's like working with women, but you can't stop other posters comparing it with working with men. It kind of automatically becomes a discussion of why people behave like that in a work situation, not just women, because well everyone's had experience of working with men too.

To answer the OP question though, I don't feel I have to defend women, and I won't defend the behaviour of one if I don't agree with it, but I will defend any generalisations made about women based on the behaviour of a minority, much like I will do about any generalisations about people from the country, or eldest children in a family, or engineers, simply because I am part of those groups and wouldn't like people making assumptions about me based on what they know of someone else in that group.

meeeeh

I would really like to see what are those female traits, that are gender specific. Besides giving birth, menopause and similar I can think of very few. It would help if people would stop passing what they and their best friend and possibly people in some internet poll think as being proven to be female/male/Italian... personality trait. I have no problem someone saying their female boss is a bitch, but to say then she is just like all female bosses is ridiculous. That is not defending women, that is just not liking stupid generalizations that people make about someone on the basis of their gender, religion, nationality, sexuality etc.

On the other hand I think there is way to much outrage over some silly generations that are harmless and very often made in jest. So if people want to get outraged about every nonsense posted in AH then they really have too much time on their hands.

Dolbert

I will defend generalisations about women, though it can feel like banging your head against a brick wall at times. I have to say I really hate it when women come out with statements like 'women are such bitches, hate being around them, that's why all my friends are lads'. Because of course, they're the one exception :rolleyes: Rightly or wrongly, I feel like it's worse when women denigrate each other like that.

PrincessLola

Bassic wrote: »

I feel that boards is very misogynistic in the main. As an outsider looking in I feel that female posters get a rough ride and feminism, as a topic is at times treated with disdain.

For real tho. I've stopped using boards lately and moved on to tumblr instead, its so much nicer
I reckon the misogyny here comes from the fact that its users are mostly men, so a male dominated culture is created and it can be quite a nasty atmosphere.

whatever I'll probably get called a misandrist now, but idgaf.

And yes, I do defend women, because I feel like I have to.

WhyGoBald

Dolbert wrote: »

I will defend generalisations about women, though it can feel like banging your head against a brick wall at times. I have to say I really hate it when women come out with statements like 'women are such bitches, hate being around them, that's why all my friends are lads'. Because of course, they're the one exception :rolleyes: Rightly or wrongly, I feel like it's worse when women denigrate each other like that.

Right, does this attitude lead to the sense of competition you can get among women of a certain age which leads to the very bitchiness complained of. I find that once I take the time to get to know other women I get on very well with them, though for some reason I tend to get on better with older women. I think you're right, though, that women themselves can perpetuate the stereotypes.

ahnowbrowncow

I've seen plenty of people on boards, who are supposedly all for equality, defend their gender but when there's an inequality affecting the opposite gender they're not so quick to jump to their defence.

I suppose people are selfish and only tend to defend what suits their interests and not something that could potentially weaken it

LeeHoffmann

^ I know I only wade in to arguments to defend a group of people if I think there´s at least a significant minority attacking that group. If everyone in the thread agrees that the inequality exists, is unfair and needs to change - then I don´t see much point joining the thread to say what´s already been said.