This Dad's Superhero Cape Is A Skirt

yawha

This Dad is awesome! Encouraging his son to dress like he wants to and not giving a damn about what anyone thinks.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rsultan/this-dads-superhero-cape-is-a-skirt

This Dad's Superhero Cape Is A Skirt
Nils Pickert's five-year-old son likes to wear dresses, and given how closed-minded people can be, Nils wanted to make sure that he grows up with a strong, positive role model. So he did what any mind-bogglingly incredible dad would do: he started wearing skirts himself.



An excerpt from Nils's explanation of his decision in EMMA, translated from the original German by steegeschnoeber:

My five year old son likes to wear dresses. In Berlin Kreuzberg that alone would be enough to get into conversation with other parents. Is it wise or ridiculous? "Neither one nor the other!“ I still want to shout back at them. But sadly they can’t hear me any more. Because by now I live in a small town in South Germany. Not even a hundred thousand inhabitants, very traditional, very religious. Plainly motherland. Here the partiality of my son are not only a subject for parents, they are a town wide issue. And I did my bit for that to happen...
I didn’t want to talk my son into not wearing dresses and skirts. He didn’t make friends in doing that in Berlin already and after a lot of contemplation I had only one option left: To broaden my shoulders for my little buddy and dress in a skirt myself. After all you can’t expect a child at pre-school age to have the same ability to assert themselves as an adult. Completely without role model. And so I became that role model...
Being all stressed out, because of the moving I forgot to notify the nursery-school teachers to have an eye on my boy not being laughed at because of his fondness of dresses and skirts. Shortly after moving he didn’t dare to go to nursery-school wearing a skirt or a dress any more. And looking at me with big eyes he asked: “Daddy, when are you going to wear a skirt again?”...
To this very day I’m thankful for that women, that stared at us on the street until she ran face first into a street light. My son was roaring with laugher. And the next day he fished out a dress from the depth of his wardrobe. At first only for the weekend. Later also for nursery-school.
And what’s the little guy doing by now? He’s painting his fingernails. He thinks it looks pretty on my nails, too. He’s simply smiling, when other boys (and it’s nearly always boys) want to make fun of him and says: “You only don’t dare to wear skirts and dresses because your dads don’t dare to either.” That’s how broad his own shoulders have become by now. And all thanks to daddy in a skirt.

Well done, Mr. Pickert. Well done.

DazMarz

No... just, no... For a number of reasons:

i) Like it or not, this kid is going to get his ass handed to him on a regular basis growing up. It's a sad fact of life, but other kids pick on those who are different. Be it that they are fat, of a different race, from a different region, wear funny glasses... or if a boy is wearing a dress. Some kids cannot help being different, it is who/what they are. But this is just something that is easily changed. Fair enough letting the kid wander around in a dress now, but once he starts school it is a different story. Even if his parents don't say anything, his school will surely be a voice of sanity and require that he not wear a dress. There is also no religious, cultural or otherwise reason for this, so I would hope that his school immediately takes steps to make sure that boys don't wear dresses.

ii) This may also be damaging to the child's gender identity. I have no gripe with cross-dressing or anything. But it should never be for kids. Especially for a kid who is so young and impressionable. If grown men want to do it, feel comfortable doing it and have the mental faculties to make informed decisions about the remifications and possible consequences of what cross-dressing can have; go for it. But for a 5-year old child to be given such encouragement. I don't know. It does not sit well. He will be unsure as to his gender identity as it will get warped. That his father is so encouraging of his son is somewhat admirable, but encourage him in an endeavour that will help him grow and learn a skill. Not in something that could be potentially damaging.

iii) the harmless innocence of this will get lost very rapidly. People will soon start to attack the father (admittedly, similar to I'm doing here). I don't believe it is healthy for a person so young to be allowed to do such things by their parents. Yes, the parents aren't forcing anything on him, but as responsible adults they should recognise what potential harm can come from this.

iv) The dress was bad enough, but the fact that he's encouraging his son to experiment with make up (painting his nails), that is just wrong. Again, it's doing nothing but causing gender confusion for the child and it will have damaging consequences later on. The most pertinent of which will be the daily ass-kickings the child will receive from his peers.

Before anyone gets on to me, I just want to say that I'm bisexual, very liberal and a firm believer in live and let live. But I think that children need role models and they need to get a fairly easy run through childhood as is possible. Nobody deserves to have a difficult childhood. Every parent in the world should do their best to make their children's lives as easy as possible. And for this man to be allowing his 5 year old son to cross dress and experiment with make-up is just not right. Fair enough if he played around in the house, but to go around in public and then to be at the age where boys will be starting school.... I can only imagine the reaction of the boy's fellow pupils.

I hate to say this, but I seriously wonder how the boy will feel about dresses and make-up after a week in school? During which (if he is allowed by the school to wear these things), he will undoubtedly get a first hand experience of "Kids can be so cruel".

Life is not fair like this, and the main reason I feel so strongly is that his father is encouraging this (which I think is a mixed message: parents should encourage their children, but not like this) and that the child will receive at best strange looks and at worst derision and bullying from others. The mixed signals his young mind will get. His father, his hero, his daddy has said that it's ok and is totally encouraging. But everyone else thinks it's wrong. Daddy can't be wrong... can he?

Kid, in this case, he is.

Sauve

I have to agree with you DazMarz.
While I don't see anything wrong with a boy wearing a dress (admittedly, I'd look twice, but who wouldn't?), the negative reactions he's going to encounter will likely push him 'into the closet' so to speak. I'm not saying the kid is gay, but right now he is showing very feminine leanings. Right or wrong, his peers will give him hell for this.

Surely for the sake of the kids' development and giving him a chance to foster a sense of himself, his parents would be better toning the whole thing down a tad. At least until the poor mite is big enough to speak for himself and fight his own battles?

ResearchWill

I say well done to the dad, little people with little minds never changed anything. Anyway if it's good enough for Braveheart to fight a battle in then who cares if a kid wants to, he harms no one except the small minded people who will never have the balls to change the world.

yawha

The bullying argument is also one used against gay adoption, and is pretty weak IMO.

Since the dad is not forcing any of this on his son, I'm not sure how there's a gender identity issue either. The kid is just expressing himself, just doing what he wants to do.

We need to move towards men being able to wear what they like and express themselves as they like without fear of being ridiculed, looked down upon or their sexuality questioned because the manner in which they choose to do this is traditionally viewed as "feminine". Kids don't have any instinctive concept of "masculine" and "feminine" as society defines it, and as such, their behaviours and how they express themselves is not governed by any of that.

This is just an example of an awesome dad who has embraced his kid's interests and been a great role model for him.

Princess Peach

Kid is smart. Dresses are great cause they cover your bum but sill keep you nice and cool on a hot day.

As regards the kid getting a hard time in school, maybe if there were more parents like this guy, there would be less of that going on. His classmates shouldn't understand gender divides at that age unless it was taught to them by someone older.

I think it's grand! Flip it around and see if a girl would be discouraged from dressing in boys clothes and playing with boys toys at that age. Kids like what they like, it's adults who create this gender divide of what girls should do and what boys should do.

openup

DazMarz wrote: »

No... just, no... For a number of reasons:

i) Like it or not, this kid is going to get his ass handed to him on a regular basis growing up. It's a sad fact of life, but other kids pick on those who are different. Be it that they are fat, of a different race, from a different region, wear funny glasses... or if a boy is wearing a dress. Some kids cannot help being different, it is who/what they are. But this is just something that is easily changed. Fair enough letting the kid wander around in a dress now, but once he starts school it is a different story. Even if his parents don't say anything, his school will surely be a voice of sanity and require that he not wear a dress. There is also no religious, cultural or otherwise reason for this, so I would hope that his school immediately takes steps to make sure that boys don't wear dresses.

No. It's not something that's easily changed. He likes wearing a dress, you can't change that, you can only shame him about it and hopes it goes away. We don't tell fat kids to stop being fat, we don't tell children who aren't white that white is better, we don't tell our kids that their glasses look stupid. We tell them "sticks and stones" and we teach them tolerance. The bullying excuse is used for so many things and it's shíte in my opinion.

wrote:

ii) This may also be damaging to the child's gender identity. I have no gripe with cross-dressing or anything. But it should never be for kids. Especially for a kid who is so young and impressionable. If grown men want to do it, feel comfortable doing it and have the mental faculties to make informed decisions about the remifications and possible consequences of what cross-dressing can have; go for it. But for a 5-year old child to be given such encouragement. I don't know. It does not sit well. He will be unsure as to his gender identity as it will get warped. That his father is so encouraging of his son is somewhat admirable, but encourage him in an endeavour that will help him grow and learn a skill. Not in something that could be potentially damaging.

Really? REALLY? Why do so many people have this idea that any brush with feminity is going to kill off any hint of "manliness" they have? I spent half my childhood in boys' underwear because they didn't make girls' ones with ninja turtles on them and no one batted an eye-lid, nor did I ever question my gender. Why should cross-dressing not be for kids? Yes, for some people it's a fetish and that's not for kids, but some people just like the clothes normally considered to be of the opposite gender, so what?

Self-confidence is a skill we all need to learn.

wrote:

iii) the harmless innocence of this will get lost very rapidly. People will soon start to attack the father (admittedly, similar to I'm doing here). I don't believe it is healthy for a person so young to be allowed to do such things by their parents. Yes, the parents aren't forcing anything on him, but as responsible adults they should recognise what potential harm can come from this.

Such things? what do you mean by that? He's wearing a dress not dissecting live puppies.
The only potential harm is that he may be bullied or feel like a weirdo, but by his father wearing a dress he is hopefully avoiding most of that.

wrote:

iv) The dress was bad enough, but the fact that he's encouraging his son to experiment with make up (painting his nails), that is just wrong. Again, it's doing nothing but causing gender confusion for the child and it will have damaging consequences later on. The most pertinent of which will be the daily ass-kickings the child will receive from his peers.

Can you show me some evidence for this gender confusion you keep talking about? Now I've read a little on the topic (I don't have references handy but could look) and the general consensus seems to be that gender comes in around 3 and is pretty much set. He may move along the spectrm of masculine/feminine but as we all know some people are more one way than the other regardless of gender. Now, he may also be transgender and not know it yet but again, if he is so what? Hopefully wearing dresses would help him figure it out.

wrote:

Before anyone gets on to me, I just want to say that I'm bisexual, very liberal and a firm believer in live and let live. But I think that children need role models and they need to get a fairly easy run through childhood as is possible. Nobody deserves to have a difficult childhood. Every parent in the world should do their best to make their children's lives as easy as possible. And for this man to be allowing his 5 year old son to cross dress and experiment with make-up is just not right. Fair enough if he played around in the house, but to go around in public and then to be at the age where boys will be starting school.... I can only imagine the reaction of the boy's fellow pupils.

Don't know what your sexuality has to do with this but I don't see how you're liberal at all. You seem to think cross-dressing is abnormal and there is something wrong with being seen as feminine. And does "live and let live" extend to children? Seein' as how you'd seem to like to have a five year old forced to wear something he may not want to.

You know what makes for a difficult childhood? Not being allowed to be yourself and feeling like a freak. Which is what the father is hopefully preventing by his actions.

wrote:

I hate to say this, but I seriously wonder how the boy will feel about dresses and make-up after a week in school? During which (if he is allowed by the school to wear these things), he will undoubtedly get a first hand experience of "Kids can be so cruel".

Maybe he won't like dresses, maybe he will, he's a kid, tastes change. So what?

Yeah, kids can be cruel about anything (seriously, I was bullied because my hair was too straight apparently) which is why we teachers need to keep and closer eye on "different" kids. It's also why we need to teach our kids that it's ok to be "different" and we should be tolerant of everyone

wrote:

Life is not fair like this, and the main reason I feel so strongly is that his father is encouraging this (which I think is a mixed message: parents should encourage their children, but not like this) and that the child will receive at best strange looks and at worst derision and bullying from others. The mixed signals his young mind will get. His father, his hero, his daddy has said that it's ok and is totally encouraging. But everyone else thinks it's wrong. Daddy can't be wrong... can he?

Kid, in this case, he is.

No, no he is not. There is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt or a dress, or painting your nails regardless of your gender. Yes, there is something wrong with bullying but we have two choices; we can teach our children that they are freaks and they should hide away (which in this case would also be horribly sexist), or that they're awesome and the bullies can shut their faces.

DazMarz

I just think that everything I've said boils down to this:

Childhood is hard enough. Do not make it harder on yourself.:(

And teachers??? They can be as bad as the bullies in some cases. I've seen cases where complaints of bullying have been laughed off, ignored, or the teachers even going so far as to say that the victim "asked for it". It's horrible, but that is the way life is sometimes.:mad:

When I say I'm liberal, I believe that everyone should be given an equal and fair chance. But I'm also a realist. In life, thanks to society, equality and rights can be talked about, but at a ground-floor level there can still be a lot of prejudice and closed mindedness. No question.

I also think that boys' clothes are far more 'unisex' than girls'. Stuff like jeans, hoodies, runners, tracksuits, even underwear, etc. can be worn by girls without raising much eyebrows at all. In fact, I see it all the time, and I think it looks grand. Most girls I know do dress in what would be seen as stereotypically "male" clothing. But the same cannot be said for the opposite. Dresses, skirts, blouses, etc. are all "female" clothing, and are usually not (if ever) seen as clothing that could be worn by a boy.

I know some girls who wear "boys" clothes because they find them more comfortable. And I can see why. I also cannot imagine battering my way into a dress or heels and finding them in any way comfortable!!!

Maybe he is lucky, as Germany is a pretty liberal place and it might, just might, not be as big a deal.

I just hope that at least the nail polish matched the dress...:rolleyes:

DazMarz

Just also... I got a PM from someone (won't mention who) asking me this: if this was my son and he wanted to do this, what would I do.

Ugh, way to put me on the spot!!!:o

I honestly do not know. I cannot give an honest answer to that, as I don't have a son. I'd be worried about what his peers at school would say/do. I know it's all well and good to say "To hell with what other people think". I think that is easier said than done.

Contrarily, you gotta do what makes you happy... right? Once my kids are happy, I'll be happy.

But I don't think I'd follow Nils and be wearing a skirt anytime soon. He has the legs for it. I, on the other hand, don't. Pasty, hairy things that I call legs...:D:o

You think boys' clothes look unisex only because you're used to it. If boys start wearing dresses again (as they customarily used to until 10), you'll get used to that as well. The dad isn't forcing anything on him, he's supporting something his son wants.
Fair play to him

say_who_now?

bluewolf wrote: »

You think boys' clothes look unisex only because you're used to it. If boys start wearing dresses again (as they customarily used to until 10), you'll get used to that as well. The dad isn't forcing anything on him, he's supporting something his son wants.
Fair play to him

Great, now all you have to do is convince the rest of the world that males wearing dresses and make up is OK. Good luck with that! The only thing this kid's father is doing is reinforcing the idea that the child will get attention and notice if he does things that get him attention. Even to the point where he is teaching the child that the world revolves around him, by going into the child's school and telling the teachers to keep an eye on his son, at the expense of all the other kids in the school who might be bullied for various other reasons like being short or not being as savvy as the other kids, many other reasons, but no- he expects exceptions to be made so his child can feel happy at the expense of others.

We all remember when we were in school and we had to wear school uniforms, they were brought in because kids were coming home telling their parents they wanted the latest branded gear because little johnny down the road had this branded gear, etc. We all remember how we didn't like our uniforms, but it taught us an important and valuable lesson- sometimes in life you have to do shìt you don't like, and the world isn't going to stop for you!

I'm all for encouraging a child to be their best and I would want to see him happy, but being a parent means you HAVE to give your child guidance, not pander to every ridiculous notion they get in their heads (otherwise I'd have bought my child every toy in the toy aisle in tesco every time we go grocery shopping!). Instead I've taught him that if he wants something badly enough, he'll save up his pocket money for it. This lesson has certainly curbed his enthusiasm for demanding everything he lays eyes on. Of course this upsets him because he can't get what he wants right there and then, but he's over it five minutes later! If I was to buy him everything he wanted, just to keep him happy, I think we could all agree here that I'd be spoiling the child and teaching them that instead of working for what they want in life- kick up a stink and the rest of the world will give them what they want. Me personally I think it's better to teach him that the rest of the world will not be as tolerant of his tantrums as I am!

As regards school, I would rather my child learn what is acceptable and what isn't in a school environment rather than impose my own beliefs on the school environment and expect them to change their school policies just to suit my son. I would also be more interested in his academic, sporting and social achievements and encouraging him in these rather than encouraging his interest in fashion at five years of age. He wears what I buy him, not what he want to wear, because anyone will tell you that could soon become a very expensive exercise!

He'll have plenty of time when he's older to hate me for being so "mean" to him and not letting him "express himself" when I told him at three years of age to take off his mother's dress and high heels because he looked ridiculous. He still does things he knows will get my attention, he's a bit of a troll-hard anyway, but I'm not going to teach him that an A in attention seeking will serve him better in life than an A in math!

Well, I'm sorry to hear you feel a child being happier in a dress is "attention seeking", and that you have to convince the entire world something is fashionable before you'll go out in it.

Dovakhin

say_who_now? wrote: »

Great, now all you have to do is convince the rest of the world that males wearing dresses and make up is OK. Good luck with that!

Isn't that exactly what feminists did with the wearing of trousers? Trousers were thought of as being only for men, the women who wore them initially were considered cross-dressing weirdos etc but eventually, when enough women did it, it became the new normal. No one notices women in trousers any more. How is this any different?

Actually by the way, I know a kid down home, aged around 10 I think, who wears girls clothes every so often (he does a mean Princess Leia, but also wears non-dressing up girls clothes every so often too) and who plays with lego aeroplanes, barbie dolls and dinosaurs, in that order. As far as I know (from talking to my little sister who is one of his friends) he has no trouble in school, not bullied, perfectly happy etc (possibly relevant is the fact that the school uniform is a tracksuit, same uniform for girls and boys). His parents take a very relaxed approach to it all, ie whatever he wants to wear is fine.

(This isn't directed at you Say Who) As an aside, isn't it mad how masculinity is so incredibly, rigidly enforced and policed by some people these days? In ways it's way more pressurising than for women/girls.

say_who_now?

bluewolf wrote: »

Well, I'm sorry to hear you feel a child being happier in a dress is "attention seeking", and that you have to convince the entire world something is fashionable before you'll go out in it.

No no bluewolf, you misunderstand me, it's not that he feels happier in the dress, it's the fact that he feels happy because he got my attention, because he put my nose out of joint so to speak, because he's getting a reaction.

I don't think either that you have to convince the world something is fashionable before you'll go out in it, but I do think it's important that one teaches their child that decisions and actions have consequences. I'd never discourage my child from taking a risk, but as his parent, sometimes I am more acutely aware of the possible consequences of his behaviour than he is, and as I previously mentioned, I personally think it's better to teach him that the world doesn't revolve around him and people are not always going to be as understanding of his behaviour as I am.

If I may be permitted to use a further individual anecdote- I was a champion Irish dancer in my early childhood and teenage years, I used wear a kilt as part of the dress code for when I'd be competing in competitions and so forth, the thought never crossed my mind that it was anything unusual IN THAT SETTING, but outside it, I could understand why people would make the mistake of thinking it was a skirt, so I wouldn't wear it outside the competitive environment.

I actually remember when I was 12 (I'm 35 now, so this was over 20 years ago!), I had a boil on my leg, and my mothers "brilliant idea" was to strap the heel of a crust of bread to my leg and make me wear a dress "to let the air get at it". Well, talk about feeling humiliated and feeling I looked like a complete twat! I was only lucky it was during summer holidays! My parents didn't seem to take too kindly then to me ripping off the dress and going totally naked in protest. Seems even they had their limits in tolerance, eh?

There's a question actually-

Forget about wearing a dress altogether- If the child was happy to go out and about naked as nature intended, would you support this idea then? Would you let your child go to school naked if it made them happy? And further to that, would you then get naked yourself in support of them?

After all, you made mention of an earlier time in history when boys wore dresses, I'm just pointing out that even before that again, humans walked around naked!

buried

Dovakhin wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what feminists did with the wearing of trousers? Trousers were thought of as being only for men, the women who wore them initially were considered cross-dressing weirdos etc but eventually, when enough women did it, it became the new normal. No one notices women in trousers any more. How is this any different?

Ehh, because in this instance it is a infant male child in a dress? Not a fully grown and developed adult female in trousers. How does a infant child logically know what it wants and needs? Let them do whatever they like when their brains are not even developed? What if a male infant child wants to be 'tarzan' and go live the rest of his days and nights in the woods alone? You going to let him do that too? lol

Princess Peach

buried wrote: »

Dovakhin wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what feminists did with the wearing of trousers? Trousers were thought of as being only for men, the women who wore them initially were considered cross-dressing weirdos etc but eventually, when enough women did it, it became the new normal. No one notices women in trousers any more. How is this any different?

Ehh, because in this instance it is a infant male child in a dress? Not a fully grown and developed adult female in trousers. How does a infant child logically know what it wants and needs? Let them do whatever they like when their brains are not even developed? What if a male infant child wants to be 'tarzan' and go live the rest of his days and nights in the woods alone? You going to let him do that too? lol

Fairly extreme and absurd example you use to compare and child wearing a dress.

Who is this child harming really? People who have ideas of what's acceptable for boys? I can't see how he is harming himself anyway. Living in three woods would most likely harm him. Wearing a dress, fairly safe!

buried

Princess Peach wrote: »

Fairly extreme and absurd example you use to compare and child wearing a dress.

Who is this child harming really? People who have ideas of what's acceptable for boys? I can't see how he is harming himself anyway. Living in three woods would most likely harm him. Wearing a dress, fairly safe!

lol 'safe', yeah totally. Please, carry on...

Princess Peach

Well there is the risk of a gust of wind blowing the skirt up and causing some embarrassment, or an ill fitted long skirt that may result in tripping I am forced to admit.

Dovakhin

buried wrote: »

Ehh, because in this instance it is a infant male child in a dress? Not a fully grown and developed adult female in trousers. How does a infant child logically know what it wants and needs? Let them do whatever they like when their brains are not even developed? What if a male infant child wants to be 'tarzan' and go live the rest of his days and nights in the woods alone? You going to let him do that too? lol

Isn't that a bit hysterical really? What's going to happen to his brain, will it fall out or something if he wears a skirt??

The comparison to running around in the woods naked is a little bit irrelevant, for the reasons Princess Peach outlined, ie it's really dangerous, whereas wearing a skirt/dress is generally non-deadly.

In fairness, the early feminists who wore trousers were adults, so I guess you have a point in that sense. That point applies more to his dad I suppose.

say_who_now?

Princess Peach wrote: »

Well there is the risk of a gust of wind blowing the skirt up and causing some embarrassment, or an ill fitted long skirt that may result in tripping I am forced to admit.

Of course there's no risk and how silly it would be to suggest that the child might get seven colors kicked out of him and ridiculed and mocked by the other kids in the school who couldn't give a toss about what's right and wrong in society and all those other adult concepts that are way over their heads...

This is why the father didn't have to go into the school and ask that special exceptions be made for his son... Oh wait- he did!

Also I don't think anyone has picked up on it so far because it's not the point of the story, but teaching his child that it's ok to laugh at someone else's misfortune (the fact that he says the child burst out laughing at the woman who injured herself walking into a lamp post), he should then not expect special exceptions to be made for his child when people laugh at the child for wearing a dress and make-up and nail polish, etc.

People laugh at people who set themselves up to be ridiculed. Some comedians can even make a decent living from it. But it is up to an adult to strike a balance for their child between letting them express themselves, and stopping them setting themselves up for ridicule. One may not always get the balance right, but you try not to go too far either side of the scale, and the LAST thing you do is expose your child to the media who couldn't give a fiddlers about you or your child's welfare, they just want to sell papers, or get website hits or whatever.

I also note that David Beckham hasn't been snapped in a sarong and scrunchy headband ever since his little fashion faux pas a few years back when he put far too much faith in his own hype to think he could start a trend that would catch on- he failed, miserably!

Princess Peach

Well It'll give an example that's comparing like to like with what's safe for children to wear at school.

What about a Muslim girl who attends a non Muslim school but wears a burka or even just a head scarf? May not be the norm or common in the community she lives in. Would you advice her to dress more to the normal style to avoid bullying?

I was bullied for a short period when very young because apparently I didn't have the correct style lunch box.

kids will be cruel, and it's up to schools to have policies to deal with this, and for schools and parents to teach children to be more tolerant of different choices.

openup

buried wrote: »

Ehh, because in this instance it is a infant male child in a dress? Not a fully grown and developed adult female in trousers. How does a infant child logically know what it wants and needs? Let them do whatever they like when their brains are not even developed? What if a male infant child wants to be 'tarzan' and go live the rest of his days and nights in the woods alone? You going to let him do that too? lol

So you didn't know what you liked and disliked as I child? I certainly did! I don't like the same stuff now, and some of it I only liked 'cause my friends/parents/big brother did but that doesn't mean I didn't like it.

If a male infant (why male, I don't know) wanted to be Tarzan I would explain why that's too dangerous but I would say that he can wear a tarzan costume of he like (weather permitting, obviously) and, I don't know, put some trees in his bedroom or something, because what harm?

Although wanting to wear and dress is hardly comparable because it poses no immediate physical danger unlike wanting to run naked and unsupervised through the woods at night.

Dravokivich

openup wrote: »

If a male infant (why male, I don't know) wanted to be Tarzan I would explain why that's too dangerous but I would say that he can wear a tarzan costume of he like (weather permitting, obviously) and, I don't know, put some trees in his bedroom or something, because what harm?

That's just a matter of game play like "Cowboys and Indians," or "Cops and Robbers," I certainly knew it as that when I was a kid and wanted to be Tarzan.

say_who_now?

Princess Peach wrote: »

Well It'll give an example that's comparing like to like with what's safe for children to wear at school.

What about a Muslim girl who attends a non Muslim school but wears a burka or even just a head scarf? May not be the norm or common in the community she lives in. Would you advice her to dress more to the normal style to avoid bullying?

I was bullied for a short period when very young because apparently I didn't have the correct style lunch box.

kids will be cruel, and it's up to schools to have policies to deal with this, and for schools and parents to teach children to be more tolerant of different choices.

Well funny you should mention the burkha actually, and even luckier you don't live in France, where wearing the burkha in public is actually banned, and it's a proposal also being considered by British Government. This side of the pond there are proposals being put forward in the Oireachtas to remove all religious symbolism from schools. I think in France again there was a case where a catholic girl was told she could not wear the cross around her neck.

These are all religiously related though, as distinct from being fashion related. If we truly wanted to encourage self expression as an ideal and do away with gender stereotyping, then why make such a big deal at all of a male child wearing a dress? Of course because we know it sits uncomfortably with the majority of society and there's a certain "sticking it to the man" idealism involved. That's not even going anywhere near the ideas about the feminist expression that society says women are only acceptable if they are "pretty", no matter what their academic achievements, yet some quarters see a boy prettifying himself as somehow progressive thinking? Someone needs to explain that one to me!

The way you were bullied in school is exactly what I was referring to earlier when I referred to the reason why school uniforms were brought in- at least by bringing in a standard style of clothing, they did away with kids being bullied for not having the latest and greatest fashions or trends.

Certainly I agree with you PP with regard to parents teaching their children to be more tolerant of those that they perceive as being different from them, but also by that same token, I would not expect the school to instill values in my child, that's my job as a parent, the school are only responsible for his welfare during school hours and it is their job to educate him. It is not their job to make special exceptions for him, and even quite recently legislation was introduced to say that a school did not have to be notified if an incoming child had special needs. This was done with the idea of equality in mind, but it has created a situation where some schools are taken completely by surprise come September and are unprepared and unable to cope given their limited resources.

Now you can call me callous or insensitive, but I'd sooner prioritise the needs of a child with special needs over the wants of a child who wants exceptional priority treatment so he can wear a dress!

openup

say_who_now? wrote: »

Well funny you should mention the burkha actually, and even luckier you don't live in France, where wearing the burkha in public is actually banned, and it's a proposal also being considered by British Government. This side of the pond there are proposals being put forward in the Oireachtas to remove all religious symbolism from schools. I think in France again there was a case where a catholic girl was told she could not wear the cross around her neck.

Yeah and if its a disgrace. Sure, if all hair accerories and hair coverings are banned then fair enough, but banning specific items of clothing to oppress religons, races or genders is wrong

wrote:

These are all religiously related though, as distinct from being fashion related. If we truly wanted to encourage self expression as an ideal and do away with gender stereotyping, then why make such a big deal at all of a male child wearing a dress? Of course because we know it sits uncomfortably with the majority of society and there's a certain "sticking it to the man" idealism involved.

No. A big deal has been made about it because it's unusual, which it shouldn't be. A lot of people don't want to do away with gender stereotyping and that's the point. Another reason we make a big deal of it is to encourage other parents to be as supportive of their children as this father was and not just try to force them into the gender binary

wrote:

That's not even going anywhere near the ideas about the feminist expression that society says women are only acceptable if they are "pretty", no matter what their academic achievements, yet some quarters see a boy prettifying himself as somehow progressive thinking? Someone needs to explain that one to me!

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here but if I understand correctly then you seem to have misunderstood feminism. Feminists (such as myself) would certainly argue that too much of a woman's worht is based on how "pretty" she is or how she matches up to the ideas of beauty we have today. That doesn't mean feminists are anti-"pretty". I own make-up and heels, but if I didn't I should still have the same value to society. Why feminists are encouraged by stories like this boy and his father is that it shows that society is becoming less misongynistc. This father sees no shame in wearing a dress because he sees no shame in being feminine, which is something that is usually considered very shameful for a man because it (traditionally) brings you away from man and closer to woman, while being a masculine girl is generally considered a good thing because they're nearly as good as boys.

wrote:

Now you can call me callous or insensitive, but I'd sooner prioritise the needs of a child with special needs over the wants of a child who wants exceptional priority treatment so he can wear a dress!

It doesn't take long to explain why it's ok to wear whatever you want, there are picture books on the subject. And children should regularly have anti-bullying/intolerence talks anyway (whether they do or not is something to take up with the department of education). I don't see how it's taking resources away from a special needs kid.

buried

Princess Peach wrote: »

kids will be cruel, and it's up to schools to have policies to deal with this, and for schools and parents to teach children to be more tolerant of different choices.

But that would be great if entire world was a perfect, clinical, controlled, PC, utopia. But it isn't. And schools and parents today can only go so far in shaping a child's values & ideals. A lot of children these days will not even allow those institutions to teach them anything at all! Today they are open to a wide range of their own sources that shape who they are.

Indeed you are correct, many people are not tolerant of different choices. This forum in particular has many contributers that do not tolerate other members traditional choices and traditional ways of living, for example.

Aside from that, I'm going with my young nephew tomorrow morning to see his beloved Arsenal football team. Some here probably find that horrifying. Should I ask him this evening would he rather trade in his replica jersey and go see his team in a dress? Probably not, I already know his answer and also I'd rather not have him think of his uncle as some sort of wierd lunatic, which he would (horrific isnt it?), trying to get the young man to make some sort of ridiculous point to the world that he couldnt possibly understand, and thereby ruining his day. In fact my sister would no doubt kill me, and she'd be right too!

openup

buried wrote: »

But that would be great if entire world was a perfect, clinical, controlled, PC, utopia. But it isn't. And schools and parents today can only go so far in shaping a child's values & ideals. A lot of children these days will not even allow those institutions to teach them anything at all! Today they are open to a wide range of their own sources that shape who they are.

Indeed you are correct, many people are not tolerant of different choices. This forum in particular has many contributers that do not tolerate other members traditional choices and traditional ways of living, for example.

Aside from that, I'm going with my young nephew tomorrow morning to see his beloved Arsenal football team. Some here probably find that horrifying. Should I ask him this evening would he rather trade in his replica jersey and go see his team in a dress? Probably not, I already know his answer and also I'd rather not have him think of his uncle as some sort of wierd lunatic, which he would (horrific isnt it?), trying to get the young man to make some sort of ridiculous point to the world that he couldnt possibly understand, and thereby ruining his day. In fact my sister would no doubt kill me, and she'd be right too!

It seems like you've completely missed the point. No ones saying boys need to wear skirts. We're saying if they want to then that's ok.
If all the boys in your nephew's class thought Arsenal was for girls would you force him to pretend he didn't like them or would you put on your Arsenal jersey and say "Well I think they're cool and the boys in your class shouldn't be mean to you for liking something different than they do." ? Because really that's all this Dad did.

Galwayguy35

The reality is that if a boy turned up at a school wearing a skirt he would be laughed out of it.
Some people might like to think that everything would be fine and no one would bat an eyelid but that just wouldn't happen.
Like it or not I can never see the day when a boy will go around wearing a skirt and not get hassle about it.

I was in Dublin last year and there was a guy walking down the street in a dress and heels etc, the abuse he got from a group of youths was unreal.
Would any parent want to put their kid through that?

Fenian Army

I predict looking back at family photos with a gf/wife in twenty years will be extra cringeworthy for this child..

Can't help but feel you get these "right on!" parents who in trying to be uber, fcuk up their child - chances are the dress wearing is something he would have grown out of, but with the fathers interference and indeed encouragement things have gotten a lot more complicated. Whats this about? The child or the parent wanting to show the world how great they are at parenting. In many cases it's the latter.

say_who_now?

The last few posts pretty much sum up my thinking on this subject, I'm all for encouraging and supporting my child, but I also prefer to teach him that there ARE differences between the sexes and that he should be mindful of those differences and respectful of them, and be respectful of those he perceives as different to him, be those differences based on their gender, race, color, religion, sexuality, whatever.

I would hope my child would have more to think about than what color dress he wants to wear today or what color he wants to paint his nails, I would sooner encourage him to go out and kick a ball or read a book and leave exploring his sexuality until he's old enough to understand and fully grasp the concept. I would certainly not wish to parade my child as some sort of social commentary on equality, gender stereotyping, etc. I'd be more concerned that he would be getting good grades in school, that he's able to socialise with other children, that he is contented at least and that he is not held up as a spectacle for ridicule and to forward somebody else's ideals of what society "should" be. The father in this story might have broad shoulders and a hard neck, but in my opinion this is far too much pressure to be putting on a five year old child!

Dovakhin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The reality is that if a boy turned up at a school wearing a skirt he would be laughed out of it.
Some people might like to think that everything would be fine and no one would bat an eyelid but that just wouldn't happen.
Like it or not I can never see the day when a boy will go around wearing a skirt and not get hassle about it.

I was in Dublin last year and there was a guy walking down the street in a dress and heels etc, the abuse he got from a group of youths was unreal.
Would any parent want to put their kid through that?

I do know what you're talking about, but I have to wonder are things still like this in schools, ie someone different gets bullied immediately?

I know of a boy where I'm from who regularly wears girls clothes (not in school obviously because they have a uniform, but with friends on weekends etc) and doesn't get any hassle about it at all. My little sister, who is one of his friends, doesn't think anything particular about it.

In the same school, a little girl whose Mam has multiple sclerosis, and who is being raised by her auntie as a result, was very briefly bullied by a boy for "having no parents" (his words). The school came down on it like a tonne of bricks, and the girls in the class (my sister included) told the boy they weren't going to be his friend until he stopped (as far as I know, this was spontaneous, not parent/teacher organised). He stopped, very quickly.

Of course all this is only anecdotal, but are other schools still full of bullies who are unchallenged? As far as I can see, schools seem to take bullying very seriously these days....

Galwayguy35

Dovakhin wrote: »

I do know what you're talking about, but I have to wonder are things still like this in schools, ie someone different gets bullied immediately?

I know of a boy where I'm from who regularly wears girls clothes (not in school obviously because they have a uniform, but with friends on weekends etc) and doesn't get any hassle about it at all. My little sister, who is one of his friends, doesn't think anything particular about it.

In the same school, a little girl whose Mam has multiple sclerosis, and who is being raised by her auntie as a result, was very briefly bullied by a boy for "having no parents" (his words). The school came down on it like a tonne of bricks, and the girls in the class (my sister included) told the boy they weren't going to be his friend until he stopped (as far as I know, this was spontaneous, not parent/teacher organised). He stopped, very quickly.

Of course all this is only anecdotal, but are other schools still full of bullies who are unchallenged? As far as I can see, schools seem to take bullying very seriously these days....

Might not be very PC to say it but it probably depends on where someone lives.

I know in the area where I live no boy would show up in a skirt.
Maybe in more well off areas attitudes might be more accepting.

openup

say_who_now? wrote: »

The last few posts pretty much sum up my thinking on this subject, I'm all for encouraging and supporting my child, but I also prefer to teach him that there ARE differences between the sexes and that he should be mindful of those differences and respectful of them, and be respectful of those he perceives as different to him, be those differences based on their gender, race, color, religion, sexuality, whatever.

No one is saying there aren't differences but none of them make it impossible nor indecent for a man to wear a dress. Though of course you should let kids know that some people might think they do.

wrote:

I would hope my child would have more to think about than what color dress he wants to wear today or what color he wants to paint his nails, I would sooner encourage him to go out and kick a ball or read a book and leave exploring his sexuality until he's old enough to understand and fully grasp the concept.

Deciding how he wants to look for the day is not comparable to a pass-time. How long does it take you to get dressed in the morning? And why are you trying to give a sexuality to a 5 year old??? Gender and sexuality are not connected and fashion taste does not play into either of these.

wrote:

I would certainly not wish to parade my child as some sort of social commentary on equality, gender stereotyping, etc. I'd be more concerned that he would be getting good grades in school, that he's able to socialise with other children, that he is contented at least and that he is not held up as a spectacle for ridicule and to forward somebody else's ideals of what society "should" be. The father in this story might have broad shoulders and a hard neck, but in my opinion this is far too much pressure to be putting on a five year old child!

Why do you think this father just wanted publicity? Where does it say he contacted the media? He just wanted his kid to be happy which he's not going to be if he thinks he's a freak and that he should hide away. Now, I'm going out on a limb here but I would imagine if Son said he wanted to wear trousers today his Dad's not gonna go "NO YOU ARE A SOCIAL EXPERIMENT!!" he'd probably just say "Ok, so jeans or shorts?"...but again, that's just a guess.

Dovakhin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Might not be very PC to say it but it probably depends on where someone lives.

I know in the area where I live no boy would show up in a skirt.
Maybe in more well off areas attitudes might be more accepting.

Maybe it is something like that. I would have thought the school I'm thinking of is fairly typical - rural school, about 150 pupils, area isn't particularly posh or anything - but maybe it does just vary a lot by region.

say_who_now?

openup wrote: »

Deciding how he wants to look for the day is not comparable to a pass-time. How long does it take you to get dressed in the morning? And why are you trying to give a sexuality to a 5 year old??? Gender and sexuality are not connected and fashion taste does not play into either of these.

Why do you think this father just wanted publicity? Where does it say he contacted the media? He just wanted his kid to be happy which he's not going to be if he thinks he's a freak and that he should hide away. Now, I'm going out on a limb here but I would imagine if Son said he wanted to wear trousers today his Dad's not gonna go "NO YOU ARE A SOCIAL EXPERIMENT!!" he'd probably just say "Ok, so jeans or shorts?"...but again, that's just a guess.

So just so I'm clear on this one-

It's ok for you to "go out on a limb" and make assumptions based on nothing whatsoever contained within the article, but you challenge my "going out on a limb" when I suggest that this might be the child's way of exploring their sexuality, or that the father might have contacted the media (because he certainly must have given them an interview if they were able to publish his opinion!)?

OK then.

One rule for one and another for others, when it suits your point of view of course.

My child is now seven and I'll still dictate what he wears, even when he comes out of his room in jeans that are two sizes too small for him and a vest that looks like a belly top. In MY opinion, certainly he's old enough to decide for himself what he wants to wear, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed to! How often have we all heard the expression "you're not going out in THAT!!", because if I had a daughter and she wanted to wear thongs and padded bra's at five years of age, I'd tell her the same thing- "No fùcking WAY!!", or would you prefer that I pander to her wishes to "express herself"?

As I already mentioned earlier- he'll have plenty of time when he's older to hate me for being so "mean" and not "allowing him to express himself"! Tbh that won't bother me as much as it would now were I to allow him to wear a dress and have to deal with the consequences of little johnny ignorant in school ripping the royal píss out of him, sending him home from school or from town in tears!

I also note how any poster so far in this discussion has avoided my earlier question that was-

Forget the child wearing a dress, if the child wanted to go to school and walk round the neighbourhood naked as nature intended, because this was their way of expressing themselves, would we then be supposed to be ok with that too? After all, clothes are just society's way of protecting our modesty, no shame in the human body, etc.

openup

say_who_now? wrote: »

So just so I'm clear on this one-

It's ok for you to "go out on a limb" and make assumptions based on nothing whatsoever contained within the article, but you challenge my "going out on a limb" when I suggest that this might be the child's way of exploring their sexuality?

OK then.

One rule for one and another for others, when it suits your point of view of course.

No. By admitting that I'm going out on a limb I'm saying I could be wrong (my opinion is based on the impression of the Dad I got from the article and from knowing parents like him), I don't know nor do you. However, you gave no evidence you thought what you said was anything other than fact, which it certainly wasn't.

say_who_now?

openup wrote: »

No. By admitting that I'm going out on a limb I'm saying I could be wrong (my opinion is based on the impression of the Dad I got from the article and from knowing parents like him), I don't know nor do you. However, you gave no evidence you thought what you said was anything other than fact, which it certainly wasn't.

OK then- I'm wrong.

Happy now?

I can say that because I am an adult and I can weigh the opinions of others against my own judgement. A child however, lacks this capacity and therefore is ill informed to be able to judge how their actions might affect the opinions of others. This is why children NEED guidance from their parents, and not a situation where the child calls the shots so to speak. This decision by the child to wear a dress is only one of many they will make on their own that the father will give in to, I wonder what will happen when the child doesn't want to go to school because other students in the school humiliate him for his decision to wear a dress and paint his nails. The teachers can't be everywhere in the yard on supervision duty, and all it takes is two seconds to smack a child upside the head and by then the damage is done, and no amount of quoting school policy is going to undo the fact that the child has just been reminded by another child that they "either fit in, or fùck off!" to put it bluntly!

As for the assertion from another poster that this somehow wouldn't raise an eyebrow in more affluent sections of society (I presume they mean better educated means less ignorant), I can only say from my own personal experience that bullying knows no boundaries, social, economical or otherwise-

Sixth Form Dorm:

"You only got a BMW for your birthday? Oh dear, well mind you don't scratch my Mercedes when you're parking in the school car park!".

Pawwed Rig

If that boy had gone to my primary school he would have been beaten every single day. Hopefully his school is nicer

openup

Look I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree but I just want to to cover a few points.

- A thong is sexual, 5 yr olds shouldn't be dressing sexually and if they want to I would be very worried. A dress is not sexual.

- I'm still not saying that a kid who is different is not going to have a hard time I just think that they will have a harder time if even their family won't support it.

- I would tell my child that being naked is fine but it's socially frowned upon over a certain age and more importantly it's illegal to wander round nude in public but it's fine at home (obviously in a child-appropriate way).

I can tell you from personal experience that one of the few things that makes not fitting in better is the reassurance and support of your loved ones who think there's nothing wrong with you.

say_who_now?

openup wrote: »

Look I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree but I just want to to cover a few points.

Is this your idea of discussion only if we play by your rules and agree with your point of view again- I read the first part and I thought "fair enough", and then came the "but"... so it's a case of- you get your own point across and we'll leave it at that?

OK then. I'm not a fan of shoving my opinions or views down other people's throats either.

BUT:


- A thong is sexual, 5 yr olds shouldn't be dressing sexually and if they want to I would be very worried. A dress is not sexual.

Depending on one's point of view, a thong is just an undergarment like any other, and I know many women who find them more comfortable to wear than knickers. It's only your perception of an undergarment that makes it sexual, many would disagree. By that same token, a dress can be perceived as sexual depending again on one's perception- I direct you to cast your eyes on some dresses worn by young women that leave little to the imagination.

- I'm still not saying that a kid who is different is not going to have a hard time I just think that they will have a harder time if even their family won't support it.

Well at least we see eye to eye on that much, but that's only common sense really, almost refreshing to see some of it displayed in this thread at last. The thing is thought that when it comes to children, they need GUIDANCE, not just support, I have no problem with my child's aspirations to be an astronaut after he witnessed the Mars probe landing, I would however have great difficulty supporting him if his aspirations were to paint his body green and call himself a martian! My point being that it's one thing to encourage and support your child with realistic aspirations, it's quite another to fuel their delusions! This is why I maintain, as I have maintained all along, that children need guidance, not entertainment of their sometimes outrageous folly.

- I would tell my child that being naked is fine but it's socially frowned upon over a certain age and more importantly it's illegal to wander round nude in public but it's fine at home (obviously in a child-appropriate way).

But there you go, in your attempts to set boundaries for the child, you have just turned a simple "no! it's not ok for you to wander around naked!" into something that confuses (it sure confused the hell outta me!) and gives the child mixed messages, when a simple "no!" would have left them no opening to question your authority.


I can tell you from personal experience that one of the few things that makes not fitting in better is the reassurance and support of your loved ones who think there's nothing wrong with you.

Well of course it always makes you feel better when people agree with you, and the more you surround yourself with people that agree with you, the better you feel again. That much is just common sense. But, I would rather (and this is from MY own personal experience) that my loved ones were honest with me if they thought I was deluding myself so that I would not go out in the world making a fool of myself and then get a woeful slap of reality in the face when I'd realise that the rest of the world didn't revolve around me!

mackg

Dovakhin wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what feminists did with the wearing of trousers? Trousers were thought of as being only for men, the women who wore them initially were considered cross-dressing weirdos etc but eventually, when enough women did it, it became the new normal. No one notices women in trousers any more. How is this any different?

Actually by the way, I know a kid down home, aged around 10 I think, who wears girls clothes every so often (he does a mean Princess Leia, but also wears non-dressing up girls clothes every so often too) and who plays with lego aeroplanes, barbie dolls and dinosaurs, in that order. As far as I know (from talking to my little sister who is one of his friends) he has no trouble in school, not bullied, perfectly happy etc (possibly relevant is the fact that the school uniform is a tracksuit, same uniform for girls and boys). His parents take a very relaxed approach to it all, ie whatever he wants to wear is fine.

(This isn't directed at you Say Who) As an aside, isn't it mad how masculinity is so incredibly, rigidly enforced and policed by some people these days? In ways it's way more pressurising than for women/girls.

I'm still unsure about this whole thing although I would be leaning towards the why not side.

Galwayguy said in his area the child would definitely become the target of abuse. Would the people here in favour of what this father did recommend that Galwayguy, if in the same situation put his fears based on his knowledge of where he lives to one side and allow his child to wear a dress?

Now for the highlighted part above. Would you be happy to let your child be the equivalent of those early feminists who wore trousers and were branded weirdos? Would you be happy for him to play the part of the trailblazer knowing his childhood would be negatively effected.

Dovakhin

mackg wrote: »

Now for the highlighted part above. Would you be happy to let your child be the equivalent of those early feminists who wore trousers and were branded weirdos? Would you be happy for him to play the part of the trailblazer knowing his childhood would be negatively effected.

Well, as a general comment, if I had a male child I would certainly try very hard not to impose this weird, over the top masculinity on him that you see sometimes - paranoia if he picks up a barbie doll or doesn't like the GAA for example. This isn't directed at you by the way, just a general comment.

However, to address your specific point, I honestly don't know is the answer. It would depend on a lot of things - what the area I was living in was like, what the school was like and their approach to bullying, how much he wanted to wear dresses or do other stereotypically female things.

It certainly wouldn't be a definite no though - like I said earlier, I know of a little boy (10 years old I think) back home who wears dresses and does other stereotypically female things (plays with dolls, likes make-up and dressing up) and isn't bullied at all. So for example, if I was to be sending my child to that school, I don't think I'd made any effort to change his behaviour, knowing that they take a very serious approach to bullying.

Lyaiera

People might laugh at him.
People might think he's weird.
People might beat him up.
He might be embarrassed when he grows up.
He might not want to go to school if people bully him.
Etc.

That's a whole lot of "mights." All we have to go on at the moment is the boy wants to wear a dress. If people do laugh at him that can be dealt with. It seems people were laughing at him, so the father decided to wear a skirt when he walked around with him to provide a positive role model and show the child that there was nothing wrong with what he was doing.

If he does get beaten up, then isn't it up to the child and his parents to decide what happens. Maybe the child values his individual expression and desire to wear what he wants over other people forcing him to fit into whatever weird notion of the world they have. Isn't it better for the child to have worn the clothes he wants, to realise that other people are being mean because of it and to stop for sake of ease rather than have his own father torment him over something fairly simple?

Some people here can't seem to grasp that the parents of this child are probably entirely aware of all the negatives, and have decided they'd rather be true to their own child than whatever the bullies want to enforce on him. That's a good thing. I'm sure if the child comes home crying every day they'd help him understand that it's because it's "strange" for a boy to wear dresses. I'm also sure they'd let him no that that's only because the world is a strange place and not because there's anything inherently wrong with it. That a lot of kids (and people) are small minded bullies because of their own messed up place in the world rather than anything the bullied has done wrong. That's a much better lesson than, "fit in kiddo! Don't make anything of yourself! Be as small as you can because the whole point of life is to live it without having done or said anything!"

Pawwed Rig

A large amount of people who are bullied suffer for years in silence so his parents most likely will not have the information to do anything about it.

Lyaiera

I think if they've managed to raise a kid who is happy to wear a dress despite all the Negative Nellies in the world then they've probably raised a kid who is happy to tell them if someone is taking the piss out of him for wearing a dress.

But I agree. If I have a child I will spend all my time ensuring that she is bland enough to avoid any attention from the world. I will then regret it on my deathbed when I'm giving bread and water as my last meal from my incredibly boring child.

say_who_now?

Lyaiera wrote: »

I think if they've managed to raise a kid who is happy to wear a dress despite all the Negative Nellies in the world then they've probably raised a kid who is happy to tell them if someone is taking the piss out of him for wearing a dress.

But I agree. If I have a child I will spend all my time ensuring that she is bland enough to avoid any attention from the world. I will then regret it on my deathbed when I'm giving bread and water as my last meal from my incredibly boring child.

This "incredibly weird world" as you call it though, is one in which for the majority in western society, males do not wear dresses and skirts. The majority dictates the norm, so the rest of the world is not weird because they wonder at this child whose parents allow and encourage him to wear what is predominantly understood by the majority of society to be female clothing. The gender stereotypes DO exist, whether one likes it or not, and no amount of trying to brush them under the carpet in order to see your child happy is going to do away with them. What this child's father is doing is called "shielding him from the truth" (actually now it occurs to me I see no mention of the child's mother in the article?). Trousers were good enough for the father for most of his adult lifetime so while I can see where he's coming from, I think he is supporting his child in the wrong way. I never for one second suggested that the child should be told to hide away and made to feel like a freak, but the child SHOULD be told that their indulgences to wear what is normally worn by females, is NOT normal, as defined by the norms of society.

I would suggest that there are other ways in which the child could be encouraged to excel if they want to change the world, like excelling in school, excelling in college, and finding a treatment for a genetic disease perhaps, or maybe excel in sport. This particular story will be a non story by this time next week (remember that this is an Irish discussion site and this article was translated from a German website), so the chances of this child making a relevant contribution to society are somewhere between slim and none.

Lyaiera

say_who_now? wrote: »

This "incredibly weird world" as you call it though, is one in which for the majority in western society, males do not wear dresses and skirts. The majority dictates the norm, so the rest of the world is not weird because they wonder at this child whose parents allow and encourage him to wear what is predominantly understood by the majority of society to be female clothing. The gender stereotypes DO exist, whether one likes it or not, and no amount of trying to brush them under the carpet in order to see your child happy is going to do away with them. What this child's father is doing is called "shielding him from the truth" (actually now it occurs to me I see no mention of the child's mother in the article?). Trousers were good enough for the father for most of his adult lifetime so while I can see where he's coming from, I think he is supporting his child in the wrong way. I never for one second suggested that the child should be told to hide away and made to feel like a freak, but the child SHOULD be told that their indulgences to wear what is normally worn by females, is NOT normal, as defined by the norms of society.

OK. So? You tell the child that most people wear clothes that society deems to be in line with their gender. Then what?

say_who_now?

Lyaiera wrote: »

OK. So? You tell the child that most people wear clothes that society deems to be in line with their gender. Then what?

Then the child kicks up for five minutes because you won't allow them to wear a dress, storms off back into their room, comes back out in trousers, and five minutes later the whole drama is forgotten about and you can both move on until the next time the child decides to push their boundaries with their next crazy idea.

If I bought into every crazy idea my child had and "encouraged and supported" him in his endeavours, I'd not only be broke, but he'd have me driven to the point of insanity. Luckily for me however I have no problem setting boundaries for my child because I do not feel a need to be his "buddy", I'm his father and his parent, I would not let my child see me as a soft touch because then he will just walk all over me and disregard my authority when I tell him at 12 years of age that he's too young to be having sex. He might decide that he's mature enough, but I as his parent am there to give him guidance, not cater to his every whim! And before anyone says "well legally he's too young to be having sex anyway", in an ideal world this would be enough to deter him, but we don't live in an ideal world now, do we?

Lyaiera

say_who_now? wrote: »

Then the child kicks up for five minutes because you won't allow them to wear a dress, storms off back into their room, comes back out in trousers, and five minutes later the whole drama is forgotten about and you can both move on until the next time the child decides to push their boundaries with their next crazy idea.

If I bought into every crazy idea my child had and "encouraged and supported" him in his endeavours, I'd not only be broke, but he'd have me driven to the point of insanity. Luckily for me however I have no problem setting boundaries for my child because I do not feel a need to be his "buddy", I'm his father and his parent, I would not let my child see me as a soft touch because then he will just walk all over me and disregard my authority when I tell him at 12 years of age that he's too young to be having sex. He might decide that he's mature enough, but I as his parent am there to give him guidance, not cater to his every whim! And before anyone says "well legally he's too young to be having sex anyway", in an ideal world this would be enough to deter him, but we don't live in an ideal world now, do we?

Hang on. There's been a beat missed.

You said that it's not nomal for boys to wear dresses.
Then I said you tell the child it's not normal for him to wear dresses and I asked what do you do after that.
You then went off on one about the child goes off in a huff for five minutes because he wasn't let wear dresses.

How did we go from "it's not normal to wear dresses" to "you're not allowed to wear dresses?"

Apparently this is all because a child has decided to "push their boundaries" with a "crazy idea." But I don't think my son wearing a dress would be pushing any boundaries for me, nor do I think it's a crazy idea. You've run ahead with all this based on the idea that it's not normal. Just because it isn't normal doesn't mean it's pushing my child's boundaries or my boundaries, and just because it isn't normal doesn't mean it's crazy. You're the one who went off on that and I don't agree with either assertion.

Let's go back then, it's not normal, you tell your son it isn't normal, and your son doesn't care. What then? Obviously you put the foot down and tell him he can't wear dresses, I don't. And I don't see why this father should either.

say_who_now?

Lyaiera wrote: »

Let's go back then, it's not normal, you tell your son it isn't normal, and your son doesn't care. What then? Obviously you put the foot down and tell him he can't wear dresses, I don't. And I don't see why this father should either.

Well your last post was just a bit vague so I misunderstood what you meant. While you might perhaps see the rest of the world as crazy for being bewildered at the idea of a father allowing a five year old child to make his own decisions, I would consider it more laughable than laudible. This is not ignorance on my part, it is ignorance on the part of the person that actively seeks to two finger society and think the world must conform to THEIR ideals, sorry, not their ideals, but the ideals of their five year old child.

I can tell you now that society isn't going to give much consideration to the ideals of a five year old child. When the child grows up is the father going to go in to his workplace and ask his boss that nobody be allowed to comment on the fact that his son is wearing a skirt and they too should change their dress code policies to accommodate him? This gives "dress down Fridays" a whole new meaning!

Smacks of "the emperor's new clothes" this does. The supporters of this child lauding this father with praise and commenting on how great it is to see it, until somebody says "oh come on, the child is wearing a dress!".

I guess if I wanted to court the attention of the media (who love a good spectacle!), I too would encourage my child to dress in female clothing and paint his nails! But that's already been done now so maybe the next time my son appears out of his bedroom wearing his mother's thong I should support him by donning a thong myself and taking him to play down in the park with the rest of the kids. And so what if other parents stare at me for wearing a thong, that's THEIR problem, right?

I'd nearly do it myself, just to see what would happen, but I wouldn't do it to my child as I'd never want to put them through that humiliation.

the_syco

He’s simply smiling, when other boys (and it’s nearly always boys) want to make fun of him and says: “You only don’t dare to wear skirts and dresses because your dads don’t dare to either.” That’s how broad his own shoulders have become by now. And all thanks to daddy in a skirt.

With a mindset like this, it'll be harder to bully him.

Also, the lone wolves are sometimes the crazy ones; he may throw a few punches at anyone who calls him names, but he'll get away with it.