Gobus not taking Travel pass customers anymore

Ans Blix

Anyone else thinks its a crap move for Gobus to stop accepting old age pensioners and disabled passes the same week that they start a Cork to Dublin route?

I mean, they aren't that accommodating with pensioners at the best of times, they've sent away my parents so they can take cash passengers. If money was so tight then why would they risk a new route? They take pride in advertising "Fully Irish Owned" over its competitors but won't accept Irish citizens based on Ageism or Disability? The Department will still pay bus companies for the allowing them so it not like they are loosing out

Jamie2k9

They take pride in advertising "Fully Irish Owned" over its competitors but won't accept Irish citizens based on Ageism or Disability? The Department will still pay bus companies for the allowing them so it not like they are loosing out

Thats where you are wrong as they will lose out as social welfare pay buttons to operators that accept passes.

biko

Galway city -> Buses

I don't know what you've heard but according to their T&C they do:

Concessionary Travel Scheme
Where a Evobus and Coach Ltd. T/A GoBus service is part of a Free Travel Scheme, on presentation of a valid Department of Social and Family Affairs Free Travel Pass, the holder, and companion where appropriate, will be entitled to travel free of charge.

http://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=terms

devnull

The department of transport will not allow any NEW rotues ot join the free travel scheme, it effects everyone, not just GoBus.

The Galway route was started before the above came into place. The terms outlined above are for the Galway service. The terms for the Cork are on gobe.ie

Mrs OBumble

Ans Blix wrote: »

...but won't accept Irish citizens based on Ageism or Disability? The Department will still pay bus companies for the allowing them so it not like they are loosing out

On the Cork-Dublin route, old and disabled peole will be cheerfully accepted, provided they hand over a tenner. No discrimination involved.

On the Galway-Dublin route, they will continue to get free rides - even if they happen to be receiving substantial occupational pension, state pension and income from private investments.

On average, older people are a lots more wealthy than younger ones, and this is exaggerated in Irelland due to the celtic tiger land sales, which were effectively an intergenerational wealth transfer from young to old.

dowlingm

As said this is a Social Welfare capping of expenditure, seen for instance when Aircoach went express from Cork-Dublin. However it's a pretty crude way to do it. Better that DSW move to a system which refunds companies for actual journeys taken (using a smartcard system which I think is due soon) rather than block grants for particular routes. Problem is that there still may be more journeys taken than money to recompense the operators.

EDIT to ask: Ans Blix did you think the accommodation of DSW holders on the Galway route was being done out of some kind of charity?

rita1980

I called Gobus last week to book on my mom on there Galway to Dublin bus was told i could book and then when i said she has a free travel pass was told i could not book...

Ans Blix

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Thats where you are wrong as they will lose out as social welfare pay buttons to operators that accept passes.

That's the point i was making, its not like they were at a loss BECAUSE they were being reimbursed for taking the Pass holders

biko wrote: »

Galway city -> Buses

I don't know what you've heard but according to their T&C they do:


http://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=terms

They are stop as of September the 1st

devnull wrote: »

The department of transport will not allow any NEW rotues ot join the free travel scheme, it effects everyone, not just GoBus.

The Galway route was started before the above came into place. The terms outlined above are for the Galway service. The terms for the Cork are on gobe.ie

You have missed my point; they are removing the use of the pass from galway to dublin the same week they introduce a new cork to dublin route

It is discrimination, plain and simple. Not all pensioners are rolling around in land transfer money and Gobus have shown their true colours as the money grabbing charlatans.

devnull

Where did you read or hear this?

LXFlyer

Just to be clear on something here. The DSP do not reimburse bus and rail operators for each trip that pass holders take. The amount they pay is capped at a certain level.

There are also still alternatives available in the form of Bus Eireann route 20/X20 or the train from Galway to Dublin.

No one is forcing anyone to use Gobus.

It may well be the case that the amount the DSP was prepared to pay Gobus was not sufficient to cover costs, and that with rising fuel costs Gobus decided to make the service (which is after all a privately operated high quality coach service) into a ticket only service for fare paying passengers. They are not obliged to take free passes - you seem to think that they are.

Ans Blix

devnull wrote: »

Where did you read or hear this?

read:

rita1980 wrote: »

I called Gobus last week to book on my mom on there Galway to Dublin bus was told i could book and then when i said she has a free travel pass was told i could not book...

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to be clear on something here. The DSP do not reimburse bus and rail operators for each trip that pass holders take. The amount they pay is capped at a certain level.

There are also still alternatives available in the form of Bus Eireann route 20/X20 or the train from Galway to Dublin.

No one is forcing anyone to use Gobus.

It may well be the case that the amount the DSP was prepared to pay Gobus was not sufficient to cover costs, and that with rising fuel costs Gobus decided to make the service (which is after all a privately operated high quality coach service) into a ticket only service for fare paying passengers. They are not obliged to take free passes - you seem to think that they are.

I accept that point completely, but my point is: Money can't be that tight if they are able to start up a new route the same week. They're cutting out a lot of people just because they don't see the immediate reward of cash in hand

I've seen it firsthand that if someone approaches with a pass in their hand they'd say the bus is full and then take a paying (not a ticket or reservation) passenger right onto the bus without a second glance! How would you feel if it was your own mother or father? I was furious and disgusted!

bmaxi

They must be confident of filling every seat with fare paying passengers.

rita1980

But that is not very nice to the customers that have been going to them for years...like my mom and dad... and my mother has to go to Dublin for doctor appointments..they cant be doing bad if they are going to be starting new services and now just forgetting about there regular customers

L1011

rita1980 wrote: »

But that is not very nice to the customers that have been going to them for years...like my mom and dad... and my mother has to go to Dublin for doctor appointments..they cant be doing bad if they are going to be starting new services and now just forgetting about there regular customers

DSP passengers are not "customers", as such - the regularity or not of how often they use the service does not impact on the operators income at all.

bk

Welcome to the new reality.

DSP passengers are worth much less then paying cash customers. That is ok on a quiet route, but on a busy route, a DSP passenger can be taking up the space of a more valuable cash customer.

Saying they must have lots of money because they are about to start up the Cork route isn't true. I'm sure it is costing them an absolute fortune to start the Cork route and that money is tight and they have to do everything possible to maximise their income to pay for the new route.

As for the DSP scheme I think we are going to see a lot more of this. Unless the scheme is radically revised I think we will see this scheme completely cut in time.

Cookie_Monster

Ans Blix wrote: »

Anyone else thinks its a crap move for Gobus to stop accepting old age pensioners and disabled passes the same week that they start a Cork to Dublin route?

nope, I think it's about time. the free travel pass was another item of madness that Ireland got up to and then went overboard with in the boom years. Offer a discount for pass holders certainly but free travel is a pointless and expensive concession.

bmaxi

bk wrote: »

Welcome to the new reality.

DSP passengers are worth much less then paying cash customers. That is ok on a quiet route, but on a busy route, a DSP passenger can be taking up the space of a more valuable cash customer.

Saying they must have lots of money because they are about to start up the Cork route isn't true. I'm sure it is costing them an absolute fortune to start the Cork route and that money is tight and they have to do everything possible to maximise their income to pay for the new route.

As for the DSP scheme I think we are going to see a lot more of this. Unless the scheme is radically revised I think we will see this scheme completely cut in time.

At the same time, with the exception of those new routes, private operators shouldn't be able to cherrypick which routes they will accept DSP passes on, they're either in or out; otherwise it would amount to taxpayer subvention.
To use a well loved political cliché, "in the greater scheme of things", the free travel scheme doesn't cost much to administer compared to the benefit it returns, buses and trains would still run and cost the same. There is a case for better policing of the scheme but to cut it altogether when other EU countries operate one would be political suicide.

LXFlyer

In this particular case frankly I don't see an issue.

GoBus operate a premium non stop service. Frankly I would ask why it was ever in the scheme?

There are perfectly viable alternatives:
Bus Eireann
Citylink
Irish Rail

It would be different if people did not have an alternative, but in this case they do.

Ans Blix

lxflyer wrote: »

In this particular case frankly I don't see an issue.

GoBus operate a premium non stop service. Frankly I would ask why it was ever in the scheme?

There are perfectly viable alternatives:
Bus Eireann
Citylink
Irish Rail

It would be different if people did not have an alternative, but in this case they do.

Citylink have 3 services between Galway and Dublin, Express, Communter and the new semi-Express and they accept the Free Travel Pass on all of them and they are just as busy!

LXFlyer

Well then - what is the problem?

They are a private company who offered this for a premium service when they did not have to, and have now decided to withdraw from the scheme. I would have thought they were perfectly entitled to do so if they wish.

There are perfectly viable alternative options available.

mickydoomsux

Just wait for the cries of "discrimination".

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

At the same time, with the exception of those new routes, private operators shouldn't be able to cherrypick which routes they will accept DSP passes on, they're either in or out; otherwise it would amount to taxpayer subvention.
To use a well loved political cliché, "in the greater scheme of things", the free travel scheme doesn't cost much to administer compared to the benefit it returns, buses and trains would still run and cost the same. There is a case for better policing of the scheme but to cut it altogether when other EU countries operate one would be political suicide.

It,s not cherry-picking as I see it.

The reality is the DSP's Free Travel Scheme has for a long time now been in freefall.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76403523

As long as it was easily concealable within the fiscal relationship between the CIE Group and the Government,all was well.

However,given the new-reality of increased Private Sector involvement in a new liberalized PT market,the game was up.

The old methodology of an annual meeting between a Government Department and a State Sponsored Body to divvy out the Free Travel monies simply could not work any longer.

This latest development is but the first public manifestation of the new Irish reality.

The era of Free-Stuff is rapidly ending,and it's replacement will in Public Transport terms most likely be a "Concessionary" arrangement,with only the most deserving recieving FREE travel,and ALL others being required to mmake a contribution.

It is well worth noting that the Irish Free Travel scheme is somewhat unique in the scale of FREE useage available to it's 726,000 members.

Referring to other EU countries and political suicide is in fact exactly what's neded IF our National Scheme is to actually survive at all.

Most other EU countries tend to operate Concession schemes funded in a variety of ways,with few having the Totally Free at Point of Use scheme operated by the DSP.

The DSP is between a rock and a hard place,it's funding is almost totally coming now from outside sources,whom are now asking questions about the use their monies are being put to.

In a State of approximately 3,000,000 Adults,the paymasters are curious as to how 726,000 of these are entitled to completely Free use of ALL State sponsored Public Transport.

A ratio of approximately 25% is VERY high to Europeans used to only their War Vetrans having a similar entitlement to our masses.

It's interesting to note the relative surprise being expressed here,because the Free Travel Scheme has been steadily and quite obviously in freefall for some time now.

It will simultaneously cause some degree of reflection amongst those who perhaps see unrestricted privatization and competition as the prime method of Improving public transport in Ireland.

Interesting times ahead

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is well worth noting that the Irish Free Travel scheme is somewhat unique in the scale of FREE useage available to it's 726,000 members.

726,000 issued passes plus a significant number of companions included in that, plus the number of fake passes or dead mans passes floating around probably brings the number of passes up to closer to a million.

But won't someone think of the oul'ones!

foggy_lad

schemingbohemia wrote: »

726,000 issued passes plus a significant number of companions included in that, plus the number of fake passes or dead mans passes floating around probably brings the number of passes up to closer to a million.

But won't someone think of the oul'ones!

726,000 issued passes includes all passes issued to children and adults as well as all passes issued to persons now deceased. and passes issued to carers.

Add to this the number of "homemade/forged" passes which could easily be removed with the proper participation of staff of the transport companies who should be made more familiar with the pass so as to be better able to spot fakes.

dowlingm

Isn't the DSP pass supposed to be going smartcard?

SeanW

rita1980 wrote: »

I called Gobus last week to book on my mom on there Galway to Dublin bus was told i could book and then when i said she has a free travel pass was told i could not book...

It's a restriction of the travel pass - you can't book in advance with it.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

Isn't the DSP pass supposed to be going smartcard?

Shortly......;)

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

726,000 issued passes includes all passes issued to children and adults as well as all passes issued to persons now deceased. and passes issued to carers.

Add to this the number of "homemade/forged" passes which could easily be removed with the proper participation of staff of the transport companies who should be made more familiar with the pass so as to be better able to spot fakes.

Is there no end to it.....:o

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2011stats.pdf

The figure of 726,000.....

Refers to the number of persons in respect of whom travel passes have been issued.

So presumably,it covers all individuals for whom the DSP picks up the tab including Spouses,Partners and Companions.

The Free Travel Scheme is a Department of Social Protection initiative.
The Document was designed by the DSP and is the property of the DSP.
I am unaware of what resources the DSP put into monitoring the use and security of THEIR OWN system,however it does not appear to come remotely near the resources being deployed by Dublin Bus to deal with Free Travel Pass misuse.

As a Busdriver,I apply as much time and effort as I can reasonably allocate to this task,however,in order to comply withy Foggy_Lads definition of "proper participation" I would then have to significantly discommode the travel arrangements of my Ticket Purchasing pasengers,something which I feel would be counterproductive to retaining THEIR business.

Whilst Foggy_Lad continues to amble along humming a seemingly endless tune about Public Transport staff and their equally endles shortcomings,he appears to be blind to what is now going to happen with the DSP Free Travel Scheme.

The Aircoach/GoBE move represents the first major contraction of the DSP's Free Travel Scheme and if it passes uneventfully we can expect further rapid withdrawals from it.

However,sad though it may be for Foggy_Lad,the responsibility lies with the proprietors of the scheme......;)

foggy_lad

Sure but none of these private companies used to accept the passes years ago until they were offered money to accept it. And as you rightly say now there is no more money being offered so no new routes should he taking the free passes.

It also makes sense that gobus while once accepting the pass on their galway service have now decided to stop taking it completely now, but I would say this is due mostly to anti social elements using the passes to travel around the country drinking and taking drugs, which affects the cash intake for the private operators who used not mind pass holders taking up their empty seats.

I have personally witnessed both drinking and drug taking several times on both private and state busses.

Mrs OBumble

JustMary wrote: »

On the Galway-Dublin route, they will continue to get free rides - even if they happen to be receiving substantial occupational pension, state pension and income from private investments.

I was wrong.

GoBus have not announced it in the media or their website, but there are signs on the front of the buses saying that their participation in the free-travel scheme is under review, and that they will cease accepting it on 1 September 2012.

I tried taking a pic, but only had the phone and a difficult angle, so it did not come out well.

The T&C on their website delicately says (boldness mine):

Concessionary Travel Scheme
Where a Evobus and Coach Ltd. T/A GoBus service is part of a Free Travel Scheme, on presentation of a valid Department of Social and Family Affairs Free Travel Pass, the holder, and companion where appropriate, will be entitled to travel free of charge.

Despite this unwillingness to accept free-passes, the bus I was on yesterday was pretty close to full, and the passengers included a number of older people.

Lapin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

.....the free travel pass was another item of madness that Ireland got up to and then went overboard with in the boom years.......

It was introduced by Charlie Haughey when he was minister for finance in the late 60s.

dowlingm

Lapin wrote: »

It was introduced by Charlie Haughey when he was minister for finance in the late 60s.

That was for off-peak travel. Seamus Brennan extended it to all times in 2006 when IE and other agencies were packing them in at the height of the boom.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

That was for off-peak travel. Seamus Brennan extended it to all times in 2006 when IE and other agencies were packing them in at the height of the boom.

It's worth pointing out that the original Free Travel Scheme introduced during CJ Haughey's ministership was ONLY for those aged 66 and over.

AFAIR it was only for the passholder with the spousal entitlement being the first modification to the scheme.

Of the current scheme's total of 726,412 Free Travel Pass holders,only 346,711 are of pensionable age.

This statistic alone gives the lie to the "Old Age Pass" descriptor so often trotted out by lazy Media when reporting on any attempt to fix this rickety structure.

Mind you,it won't be long before representatives of the 97,000 Pass Holders defined as "Others" come charging along to defend their patch also

Cookie_Monster

Lapin wrote: »

It was introduced by Charlie Haughey when he was minister for finance in the late 60s.

yes, and? My post says it was introduced.... and then during the CT blown out of all proportion, not that it was introduced during the CT.

TheChrisD

MYOB wrote: »

DSP passengers are not "customers", as such - the regularity or not of how often they use the service does not impact on the operators income at all.

Oh, so because I'm not a "customer", IE/DB/Luas etc. don't have to give two craps about any potential issues or feedback I may have about their services?

L1011

TheChrisD wrote: »

Oh, so because I'm not a "customer", IE/DB/Luas etc. don't have to give two craps about any potential issues or feedback I may have about their services?

Realistically, yes. Dublin Bus and Veoila would probably love if the free pass system was wound up in the morning. Irish Rail and BE would have to do some serious paring back of rural services, but would likely come out the better for it too.

mickydoomsux

Based on internal figures for tickets issued, IE would much prefer if the free travel pass became a concession pass entitling the holder to 1/4 price fares.

It would pretty much eliminate 99% of anti-social behavior on trains/in stations and we would make far more money from it than we currently get in subvention.

The yearly breakdown of tickets in the station i work at has the "Social Welfare Day Return" as the most issued ticket by an obscene margin. And bringing up the second spot on the charts........ "Social Welfare Single". "Adult Day Return" is third place by a good margin back from second after that.

On the line i work on the majority of passengers are on free travel passes.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

On the line i work on the majority of passengers are on free travel passes.

Which line is that?

AlekSmart

It's now on public record that the Government has set up a "Working Group" to review the operation of the Free Travel Scheme.

As ever,it is left to Joe Duffy and Liveline to get the ball rolling,which,to be fair they do with great aplomb......

You tell em Joe...!

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A3385970%3A53%3A06-09-2012%3A

Still a frightening inability to recognize that the Free Travel Scheme long ago ceased to be about Old Age Pensioners...:)

schemingbohemia

Any chance you could summarise what the callers into whineline said? I've just eaten so not sure I could listen to it without spewing!

Losty Dublin

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Any chance you could summarise what the callers into whineline said? I've just eaten so not sure I could listen to it without spewing!

The little I heard was one old lad who said that old people use it as it's free and can't afford to pay, the seats are empty anyway so CIE makes money from them using the seats and that people paying for seats shouldn't mind paying extra for them. Head and wall stuff.

foggy_lad

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Any chance you could summarise what the callers into whineline said? I've just eaten so not sure I could listen to it without spewing!

Most were in favour of keeping the pass as it currently is with no means test and no peak time restriction.

There was only one person giving out about some old dear who had been complaining about the service on the train being disrupted yet again and who couldn't remember if she had just returned from the canaries or cayman islands but he son changed his tune when he heard from the other callers including Sean Haughey who fully supported keeping the pass as is.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most were in favour of keeping the pass as it currently is with no means test and no peak time restriction.

There was only one person giving out about some old dear who had been complaining about the service on the train being disrupted yet again and who couldn't remember if she had just returned from the canaries or cayman islands but he son changed his tune when he heard from the other callers including Sean Haughey who fully supported keeping the pass as is.

The person "giving out" was Fr Micheal Commane ( http://michaelcommane.blogspot.ie/),only he was'nt "giving out" at all.

He was making a quite valid point regarding entitlement to the DSP's Free Travel Scheme.

However,Joe Duffy,allowed the good Fr Comanne's point to be derailed,as usual,by allowing the Free Travel Scheme to be referred only in the context of OAP entitlement.

At no point did our intrepid presenter refer to the DSP's own statistics which show that the "Aged" make up slightly less than 50% of Free Travel Scheme members.

The reality is the Government has now actually commenced the process of dismantling the Free Travel Scheme as we know it.

The "Working Party" now beavering away will make recommendations which I very much suspect will be accepted by the Cabinet,and a lot sooner than many expect.

Sean Haughey's contribution was interesting in its quite accurate description of how Senior Civil Servants in a number of Departments were panic-stricken in the lead-up to his father's Budget Speech.

However Sean merely stated his preference for the current scheme to be left as it is,rather than any element of means-testing being introduced....a red-herring if ever there was one.

Sean most likely knows full well just how serious the Free Travel Scheme's condition is but he plays the political game to a tee by being seen to be agin this sort of thing....:eek:

A less sensationalist account of the situation is to be found here....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0905/1224323611864.html

There are currently in excess of 720,000 customers eligible for free travel. When companion passes are taken into account, there are more than 1.1 million customers with free travel eligibility.

Internal Department of Social Protection briefing material states that the new review will take account of the potential impact of any recommendations on the operation of cross-Border travel.

“In considering any changes, the group will ensure that its recommendations have regard to the likely impact on costs both immediate and into the future,” it says.

The group has been tasked with drawing up recommendations to address current difficulties in time for the forthcoming budget, as well as proposals regarding the long-term future of the free travel scheme.

Separately, the department is working on the introduction of a public services card, which will replace the existing travel pass. The card will include improved security features and reduce the potential for forgery or fraudulent use, according to officials.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

The reality is the Government has now actually commenced the process of dismantling the Free Travel Scheme as we know it.

Are you sure this is for the free travel scheme? (If you are referring to the issues of the last couple of days where disabled persons took to the pavement outside Leinster house in protest and the response from the Government to look into other ways of making savings i feel they were not referring to the free travel pass when talking about "transport" but rather the mileage and allowances paid to home helps and other carers.)

EDIT: Just read the newspaper article but I doubt very much if any changes will be made to the free travel scheme apart from some improvements designed to prevent fraud(but this rests mainly with the transport company employees.) Because the last thing the Government needs are thousands of disabled and elderly people camped on Kildare street for the world press to see!