GoBus/BE launch new Cork to Dublin/Airport Express service

bk

GoBus and BE have launched a new Cork to Dublin -> Dublin Airport express non stop service. It will start on September 3rd.

Details here:

http://www.gobe.ie/

devnull

It's very good from Bus Eireann's point of view, but of course should they land a knock-out blow on Aircoach it could result in Bus Eireann applying for a direct service and therefore launching their own service independently of GoBus.

Can't help thinking GoBus have been short sighted here, I know going it alone would have it's challenges too, but here they're perhaps being used by Bus Eireann to knock out the competition.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

From a very brief flash through....any mention of the oul Pass...?

No it looks like the Free Travel Pass won't be usable on this service.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

No it looks like the Free Travel Pass won't be usable on this service.

Whilst all of the Heat & Light is expended on the actuality of the new-services,I'm far more aware of the rather Fundamental shift in Public Transport policy contained in the nitty-gritty.

It'll take a few minutes,but I'm sure somebody will be along in a minute to take up the cudgel on behalf of the disadvantaged.

bk

Bus Eireann press release here:

http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=1162&month=Aug

Also BE are already promoting this new service on the ad "ticker" on the front page. However note tickets are actually bought on GoBus.ie, you can't buy them on the BE website and I assume tickets bought on the X8 won't work on the GoBus and vice versa.

Looking at the schedule, interestingly GoBus claim they can get Cork to Dublin Airport in 3 hours 15 minutes!! While it might be possible at off peak times, I don't think it is realistic at peak times and I think they should change the peak time schedule to reflect his, so as not to get people into a situation where they might miss their flight. Specially as GoBus stops further away in the bus park then Aircoach.

GoBus seem to recognise this in the other direction, where they give themselves 30 minutes to get from the airport to Dublin city.

Mrs OBumble

devnull wrote: »

It's very good from Bus Eireann's point of view, but of course should they land a knock-out blow on Aircoach it will result in Bus Eireann applying for a direct service will no doubt kick GoBus out of such facilities.

Can't help thinking GoBus have been short sighted here, I know going it alone would have it's challenges too, but here they're merely being used by Bus Eireann to knock out the competition I believe.

Surely if BE wanted to simply knock out the competition, they would just have done it themselves?

With the brand being used, what do you think people are going to call the new serivice ... ahh "let's catch the gobe" pronounced how exactly???

kieran4003

An interesting, but long rumoured development.

The service has some interesting features:
- Departing from Parnell Place & Bus Aras: This will make the service very attractive compared to Aircoach. People waiting for the Aircoach service must get soaked most days with all the rain.
- The departure times are interesting, none of them are in direct competition with the X8.
- The use of the name GO - BE, This will benefit BE much better then Go Bus, People will assume it means Go Bus Eireann. Most people in Cork have never heard of Go Bus
- The tickets are cheaper then Aircoach
- I imagine if a service is full that BE would lay on another coach, unlike Aircoach which has to leave passengers behind. Or else they can wait for an X8, it is only 30 minutes after from Cork.
- If the coach pictured on the Go BE website is showing the actual livery that will be used, the fact it is mostly red will also benefit Bus Eireann.
- Advertsing for this is already in full swing, On BE website ticker, Press releases from both operators, Go BE website ad BE are spreading it on Facebook aswell. Will be interesting to see if there will be radio and newspaper ads.

I feel sorry for Go Bus though. BE probaly want to use this service to knock out Aircoach and then apply for that licence and leave Go Bus in the lurch. I cant see Aircoach leaving the market completely, but they left the Belfast service before after being crushed by BE & UB.

There are a couple of odddities with this service however:
- Cannot buy tickets on the bus, greatly limiting flexibility.
- Journey time of 3 hours Parnell Place Bus Aras is too tight.
- Makes a joke of the X8.
- Timetable is confusing with the friday and sunday extra runs.
- Like Aircoach, no late night departure ex Cork.

Perhaps though BE are not concerned with this in the short term. Maybe they only want to use this to establish a base if they get a licence at a later stage.

bk

JustMary wrote: »

Surely if BE wanted to simply knock out the competition, they would just have done it themselves?

They don't have a license for it.

Per the NTA guidelines, they will only license two direct non stop service per route and two stopping service per route. Which is why you have the GoBus and Citylink direct services in Galway and the BE and Citylink stopping services in Galway.

Aircoach and GoBus got direct licenses to Cork, so BE can't get a license for the same service.

Which begs an interesting question on the Limerick route. Are Kelly Travel wasting a valuable direct slot with their crap two services a day?

Limerick looks underserved with only Dublin Coach offering an hourly service, with no late night services and no one operates to the airport. Looks like a gap in the market there for Aircoach/GoBus/Citylink to offer an hourly, late night service to the Airport.

Sponge Bob

Thank God we Galway people don't have to cross over to the wrong side of the liffey to get our Gobus home.

Parnell Place is absolutely YeeEEeww as a stop location for any tourists. They'll have no shoes by the time they reach O Connell St the poor dears.

bk

kieran4003 wrote: »

- Departing from Parnell Place & Bus Aras: This will make the service very attractive compared to Aircoach. People waiting for the Aircoach service must get soaked most days with all the rain.

It depends people who get Dublin Bus in Dublin to start/complete their journey (like me) will prefer to use Aircoaches location. Much more convenient then Bus Aras.

People who start/complete their journey by DART or commuter rail from Connolly will prefer GoBus. Obviously GoBus have an advantage of shelter.

This shows the completely unfair situation with BE being allowed to use tax payer paid facilities like this. Bus stations should really be taken out of the hands of BE and put under the control of the NTA and all companies allowed to use them.

kieran4003 wrote: »

- The departure times are interesting, none of them are in direct competition with the X8.

I think that is a lucky co-incidence, I think it has more to do with the NTA rule saying that there must be a 30 minute gap between direct non stop services. Aircoachs schedule is on the hour, so GoBus have to be on the half hour.

kieran4003 wrote: »

- I imagine if a service is full that BE would lay on another coach, unlike Aircoach which has to leave passengers behind. Or else they can wait for an X8, it is only 30 minutes after from Cork.

Interesting question, but not necessarily true at all. Rumour has it that BE are planning to cut out all overflow coaches. It was one of the main (faulty) reasoning behind them buying their new high capacity (very little leg room) coaches. To get rid of such overflows.

At best we can hope they will allow people to use the X8, but not evidence of that at all.

In fact since this new service is online booking only, I guess you won't be able to buy a ticket if there isn't enough seats. This might even be the reason for online booking only. To avoid angry questions why people can't use the X8 if the GoBus was full.

It shows that there really is very little real integration between GoBus and BE here.

dowlingm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thank God we Galway people don't have to cross over to the wrong side of the liffey to get our Gobus home.

Parnell Place is absolutely YeeEEeww as a stop location for any tourists.

Um... not Parnell Place, Dublin SB... the one with a bus station in Cork.

bk wrote: »

Bus stations should really be taken out of the hands of BE and put under the control of the NTA and all companies allowed to use them.

+1

Sponge Bob

dowlingm wrote: »

Um... not Parnell Place, Dublin SB... the one with a bus station in Cork.

Ah. Best not mention the "P" word outside Cork when advertising the service.

Why they could not do what they did in Galway when co branding ( BE stickers on a Gobus) and run it entirely off known Gobus stops ...I'll never know.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Interesting question, but not necessarily true at all. Rumour has it that BE are planning to cut out all overflow coaches. It was one of the main (faulty) reasoning behind them buying their new high capacity (very little leg room) coaches. To get rid of such overflows.

At best we can hope they will allow people to use the X8, but not evidence of that at all.

In fact since this new service is online booking only, I guess you won't be able to buy a ticket if there isn't enough seats. This might even be the reason for online booking only. To avoid angry questions why people can't use the X8 if the GoBus was full.

It shows that there really is very little real integration between GoBus and BE here.

Considering they could not forsee and organise extra buses to Letterkenny and Donegal on Sunday afternoon after the football semi-final leaving at least 60 people waiting in Busarse for an hour I cant see this service running to schedule if Bus Eireann staff have any part in its operation!

As for using the X8, if Bus Eireanns X8 passengers are allowed use the gobe services whenever the X8 is oversubscribed I can't see any issue with it being recipricated.


As this is run in conjunction with BE I wonder will there be the usual stops in Urlingford for driver refreshments?

dowlingm

Iarnrod Eireann's response will be to form an alliance with Citylink and close a bunch of lightly used stations like Templemore to ensure the fastest possible service, and finally offer an 0600 departure ex Dublin for business travel to Cork.

Only kidding - they blew any money there was for that on Dick's retirement lump sum.

Sponge Bob

foggy_lad wrote: »

As this is run in conjunction with BE I wonder will there be the usual stops in Urlingford for driver refreshments?

De Members will not be driving dese buses.

dowlingm

I didn't know "de members" drove Aircoaches and yet I believe they have been known to stop there.

devnull

bk wrote: »

ooking at the schedule, interestingly GoBus claim they can get Cork to Dublin Airport in 3 hours 15 minutes!! While it might be possible at off peak times, I don't think it is realistic at peak times and I think they should change the peak time schedule to reflect his, so as not to get people into a situation where they might miss their flight. Specially as GoBus stops further away in the bus park then Aircoach.

Exactly how I would describe it also, although this make it even more vital that Aircoach update their site that STILL mentions the fact the Dublin to Cork service serves the coach park, which redirects users to the new service ran by the opposition very soon. I've no doubt people will point this out to them but if they change it or not remains to be seen.

You would think they would allow more than 15 minutes from Busaras to Dublin Airport for the reasons that you mention, normally operators pad the arrival time at airports a little bit than cut it fine to prevent people from complaining at missing the flight. From a customer satisfaction point of view it's always better to arrive early than late. If they wanted to be quicker than Aircoach just allow 25 minutes.

JustMary wrote: »

Surely if BE wanted to simply knock out the competition, they would just have done it themselves?

Not when they legally cannot run such service as they cannot get a license for it, they have to be more cute about how they go about this, also they would like to see Aircoach, who would be considered a long term threat to the BE market should they make big gains due to their parent company, knocked out of the market, not just for the Cork run, but for the bigger public transport picture, same reason as they would perhaps like citylink to pull out, they would quite like to see the bigger resourceful privates removed from the market leaving smaller ones behind who are less able to fight with BE I would suspect.

kieran4003 wrote: »

An interesting, but long rumoured development.

It was mentioned on these boards long ago and rubbished!

- Departing from Parnell Place & Bus Aras: This will make the service very attractive compared to Aircoach. People waiting for the Aircoach service must get soaked most days with all the rain.

I think it's a bigger benefit in Cork than in Dublin, as the location in Dublin is better for passengers in my view. However in Cork the BE station is a much better location and facilities even if it is just across the road.

- The departure times are interesting, none of them are in direct competition with the X8.

More to do with the NTA guidelines I would suspect, when Aircoach have all the slots on the hour mark already taken up, which means they need to run on the half hour. This is good policy from the NTA as we don't want to see services run five minutes ahead or behind as that is predatory in my view.

The use of the name GO - BE, This will benefit BE much better then Go Bus, People will assume it means Go Bus Eireann. Most people in Cork have never heard of Go Bus

If the coach pictured on the Go BE website is showing the actual livery that will be used, the fact it is mostly red will also benefit Bus Eireann.

I feel sorry for Go Bus though. BE probaly want to use this service to knock out Aircoach and then apply for that licence and leave Go Bus in the lurch. I cant see Aircoach leaving the market completely.

I'd agree with that, which is why I think this is a gamble for Jim Burke, he's merely putting the majority of the money in, to build a service which Bus Eireann can possibly reap the rewards of if they pull the contract and access to bus stations later on as it would appear the BE service is a natural continuation of the service. I would assume at the end of the war Aircoach will pull out, GoBus will be the dominant operator, but would have took some financial hit from the war, leaving BE able to take advantage of the whole situation. It's win win for them, they have nothing now anyway.

The tickets are cheaper then Aircoach

Although they are advertised as promotional fares, and they're cheaper than the Galway route mostly for a bigger distance, I would think that this is more to take the challenge to Aircoach, and we'd see an increase in prices as they begin to win the war or the war finishes.

I imagine if a service is full that BE would lay on another coach, unlike Aircoach which has to leave passengers behind. Or else they can wait for an X8, it is only 30 minutes after from Cork.

Considering they allow online tickets only, then there cannot be any extra coaches as they would only sell enough tickets that can be accommodated on each departure. Burke's are running this contract alone with no drivers or vehicles from Bus Eireann I believe. I suspect there is good reason to operate online bookings only and not to allow BE to book tickets themselves.

There are a couple of odddities with this service however
- Cannot buy tickets on the bus, greatly limiting flexibility.

I'd say this clause is because of what I've talked about above, if they allow people to purchase tickets in Parnell Place or Busaras for instance, this leaves GoBus more vulnerable if BE decide to pull the partnership later on when Aircoach exit the market and BE market their own services from their own bus stations. If they can get people booking online in advance, this means that the change of departure points becomes less of an issue AND they encourage people to often visit their site, and their contact information making it easier for them to communicate the split to their advantage rather than BE's.

Timetable is confusing with the friday and sunday extra runs.
- Like Aircoach, no late night departure ex Cork.

Agreed, although it remains to be seen if this is just a temporary thing on the first point, and the second one is perhaps simply because they are more interested in flushing out the competition right now than actually providing new services that are not already provided, hence why all services tend to be half an hour ahead of Aircoach ones. They also want to seem faster to the airport, being a core market for Aircoach.

Perhaps though BE are not concerned with this in the short term. Maybe they only want to use this to establish a base if they get a licence at a later stage.

That is exactly how I see it, Bus Eireann are no doubt involved because of several other factors and their own ambitions, lets face it they would not do such a thing if they could get their own service, it is a marriage of convenience I would say.

bk wrote: »

Which begs an interesting question on the Limerick route. Are Kelly Travel wasting a valuable direct slot with their crap two services a day?

I think on such corridors there needs to be legislation that deals with such circumstance if that is indeed the case, as whilst it is not in this case, it could lead to one operator with a license getting another operator to run a couple of services each day to prevent any real competition, we've seen tow operators team up today to try and remove another one, there is no reason something similar couldn't happen to block entry to the market also in the future.

This shows the completely unfair situation with BE being allowed to use tax payer paid facilities like this. Bus stations should really be taken out of the hands of BE and put under the control of the NTA and all companies allowed to use them.

I agree but I can't see it happening, the fact is Busaras was supposed to be full but now they are adding more services to it. A similar situation happened in Belfast where Aircoach were denied permission to use the Europa, because it would be unsafe to have more services there, which eventually lead to a court battle, in which Aircoach now are allowed access to the area, but the stops just outside as Translink believe it is still part of the bus station. Again translink allowed others and themselves to expand there.

Interesting question, but not necessarily true at all. Rumour has it that BE are planning to cut out all overflow coaches. It was one of the main (faulty) reasoning behind them buying their new high capacity (very little leg room) coaches. To get rid of such overflows.

To be fair though GoBE are no doubt going to have better coaches than Aircoach and this is all the companies fault. They replaced the best coaches in Ireland in my book for comfort and leg-room without toilets with coaches that have far less comfort and legroom with toilets on some of the departures therefore fixing one problem and creating themselves a few more which is clearly now going to be exploited.

It shows that there really is very little real integration between GoBus and BE here.

Obviously, that is the best way at the end of the day for BE, Gobus take on all the risk and the majority of the funding, BE lend them some facilities and some marketing and promote the service to BE customers in order to hasten the demise of Aircoach without having to expose themselves to any risk. BE will pay the upfront marketing costs, which will help GoBus as they would be starting from scratch on the route otherwise.

As I said, it's good there is competition on the Dublin to Cork route but the way that it is happening is not the best for the consumer. I'd personally have liked to see them go it alone as like I say, this appears to be the two companies getting hitched to help each other out in the short term rather than the long term.

foggy_lad

Given Bus Eireanns financing and the creative way they seem to move funds around it begs the question how much of taxpayers money is being used for this new service?

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Given Bus Eireanns financing and the creative way they seem to move funds around it begs the question how much of taxpayers money is being used for this new service?

I wonder how BE accounts for Parnell Place/Busaras running cost/depreciation - if it's just paid for out of general funds and routes are not allocated a cost for getting access to a bay then in theory this could be deemed supported by taxation perhaps?

Am intrigued by how some of the posters above think BE is the big bad wolf and Gobus is Red Riding Hood (correction - mixed up my stories there). Surely this is merely building on a successful relationship existing from Dublin-Galway, and while Gobus might have to raise finances I bet the meeting goes better with the bank when you point out BE's involvement.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Given Bus Eireanns financing and the creative way they seem to move funds around it begs the question how much of taxpayers money is being used for this new service?

Interesting question, are GoBus paying for access to the BE stations?

If not then public tax payers money (to build and operate the bus station) is going to subsidise a private company.

If they are paying for access, then shouldn't Aircoach and others be also allowed to pay for access to.

Other way I think there are big questions for BE, NTA and DoT to be answering here.

Sponge Bob

It is messy, surely any company should be allowed to co brand with Bus É and a tariff sheet for access to Busárus should be published and approved as not being 'anti competitive' or 'cross subsidised' by a regulator. Something that has not happened here.

But the big loser will be IE, not Aircoach. The second big loser may well be Cork Airport!

SandyfordGuy

Interesting move that is for sure, no benefit or security for GoBus here at all at the end of the day. It's vastly different to Galway

The Galway service is simply a marketing agreement 100% run by GoBus in their own name with absolutely no dependency on Bus Eireann, they have their own stops, their own facilities, their own brand, their own livery and the only connection it has to Bus Eireann is the fact you can buy tickets for onward travel, BE and GoBus barely advertise there is any collaboration between each other. If they parted company today neither company would lose much as they are not dependent on each other.

The new link up is a full blown partnership, in which Gobus are using a name which implies more of a link to BE than themselves rather than their own name, a livery which is based on that of Bus Eireann, they are using BE facilities and there is to be heavy marketing of the brand it seems from everything I have read so far. If BE decide to end the contract tomorrow, GoBus will have to change the name, the departure points, the livery and will lose a lot. They have nowhere near as much control as they do with the Galway.

If the Galway route collapses GoBus can just carry on regardless as it has very little impact. If the Cork one collapses they have to make major changes to their service. Whatever happens BE don't lose out, because something is better than nothing, especially if it gives them a chance to enter the market longer term.

I should think that some of the industry now will be very hostile towards Jim Burke and will view it as sleeping with the enemy as you'd think privates would want to work together to get more of the market.

bk

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

I should think that some of the industry now will be very hostile towards Jim Burke and will view it as sleeping with the enemy as you'd think privates would want to work together to get more of the market.

Yup, I wonder if it would be wise for Aircoach, CityLink and Dublin Coach to link up and create some sort of partnership.

They don't have any network overlap, they could create a single brand, with a single website, joint advertising pot *, the ability to book through trips (e.g. Galway (CityLink) -> Belfast (Aircoach) via Dublin Airport). It could also give them a stronger negotiating position with the DoT.

* Together they might have enough money to do BE style TV and radio advertising. Imagine the ads, every city in Ireland direct, non stop from just €10 with free wifi, etc.

I feel BE maybe opening a can of worms here and could leave themselves now open to being sued by Aircoach/Citylink/DublinCoach, etc. for access to their stations.

Outkast_IRE

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is messy, surely any company should be allowed to co brand with Bus É and a tariff sheet for access to Busárus should be published and approved as not being 'anti competitive' or 'cross subsidised' by a regulator. Something that has not happened here.

But the big loser will be IE, not Aircoach. The second big loser may well be Cork Airport!

I dont think cork airport will be a loser here, the only customers i see using the route are ones on routes not available from cork, there would have to be a big price difference for someone to deal with the bus trip before and after their holiday i had to do it for a college trip this year on a private direct bus and it really drained me.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Yup, I wonder if it would be wise for Aircoach, CityLink and Dublin Coach to link up and create some sort of partnership.

They don't have any network overlap, they could create a single brand, with a single website, joint advertising pot *, the ability to book through trips (e.g. Galway (CityLink) -> Belfast (Aircoach) via Dublin Airport). It could also give them a stronger negotiating position with the DoT. .

With current ownership and structure of those three companies I cannot see it happening however there are without doubt some connections between the companies which means it cannot be completely ruled out. Generally though the problem is big groups don't often like going into partnership with each other for the long term, If all three companies were independents I could more likely see it happen. Citylink are all but out of the market in everything but name however

Aircoach
- Owned by huge North American and UK transport group FirstGroup since 2004
- Successful for many years but now loss making
- First looking to sell unprofitable parts of business.
- Believed to want to get involved in bus market from 2014
- Most vehicles lack toilets.
- Most vehicles leased to Aircoach directly, others First assets that are sent over
- Managing director used to work for Citylink and Metroline for many years
- Heavily reliant on airport users, now trying to change that

Dublin Coach
- Ran by the former boss of Aircoach
- Has two routes which seem to be doing well.
- Has an iPhone app.
- Whole fleet is leased
- Very good fleet apart from the fact
- It doesn't have toilets.
- I would suspect they are only just breaking even at best.
- Also operates quick park airport parking.
- Seems to allow vehicles to be parked up in same place as Aircoach

Citylink
- Owned by ComfortDelGro, a large Singapore based international transport company.
- Tender against First for London bus operations under the Metroline name.
- All operations now contracted out to Callinan's coaches in Galway
- Don't actually own or lease any vehicles, all carried out by subcontractor
- Aircoach a good few years ago did some work for Citylink.
- Formerly led by current Aircoach MD
- Has the most Intercity routes out of the three.

Also such a team-up is not always good for consumers, go and look at the bus market from Luton Airport to London and you'll see what I mean.

bk

Well seemingly there is already some relationship between CityLink And Aircoach.

At Dublin Airport I believe Aircoach sell tickets for the CityLink service.

SandyfordGuy

The Luton airport is however pretty unusual, it seems that all of the operators on that route, Arriva, EasyBus, Greenline, National Express, Wizzair and Terravision, normally hardly the best of friends to each other all agreed to pool their services together which resulted in one service operating and prices going through the roof.

Note the interesting co-branding on the vehicle for several operators:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trolleyfan/7208741482/

This is not nearly like it because of the different regulation regime we have here, and the fact there will be two services operating at any one time anyway, regardless if Aircoach drop out and Bus Eireann take on their former partners.

One more thing, the actual move to allow online bookings only is a rather smart tactic which I'm sure was put in place by GoBus, if you think about how such users of the service will have to go about booking their tickets and what details they have to give, you may make some conclusion about how it would help them if Bus Eireann were to file for divorce!

bk

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

normally hardly the best of friends to each other all agreed to pool their services together which resulted in one service operating and prices going through the roof.

But that would be the beauty of Aircoach, DublinCoach, and CityLink teaming up. They have no overlapping services, so no possibility for collusion or monopoly here.

- However how they benefit is reduced cost from having one website and booking infrastructure rather then three.

- And much greater advertising impact by pooling their resources.

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

One more thing, the actual move to allow online bookings only is a rather smart tactic which I'm sure was put in place by GoBus, if you think about how such users of the service will have to go about booking their tickets and what details they have to give, you may make some conclusion about how it would help them if Bus Eireann were to file for divorce!

I'm not sure how smart it is if your direct competitor offers far greater flexibility and ease of us. The only reason GoBus will get away with this is because people might want to guarantee a bus with a toilet. But if Aircoach eventually fix this, then GoBus will likely lose customers due to this inflexibility.

If GoBus do go down this route, then I think they will need to improve their online booking system by:

1) Allowing bookings up to 15 minutes before departure.

2) Allowing bookings to be shown on an email on a smart phone (no need to print out the ticket) or even better a sms ticket.

3) Perhaps create iphone and android apps that allow you quickly and easily book a ticket shortly before a bus and use that ticket on the phone.

In other words to make up for the lack of flexibility in booking online, make the online booking system as flexible and last minute as possible.

devnull

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure how smart it is if your direct competitor offers far greater flexibility and ease of us. The only reason GoBus will get away with this is because people might want to guarantee a bus with a toilet. But if Aircoach eventually fix this, then GoBus will likely lose customers due to this inflexibility.

Yes, but there are no ideal situations, as has been pointed out, if BE and GB go their separate ways later on, everyone who buys tickets will have given their telephone number and email address to GoBus,who would the me able to cheaply message such people via email or SMS without having to run an expensive marketing campaign.

BE meanwhile may then be able to run services itself from the bus stations it has kicked the competition out of, but all the customers that the former joint service had would be aware that their service has now moved out of there. They will not gain any walk-up customers who are looking for a service from Busaras or Parnell Place, because such people would have been educated to and had to book online in advance and would know about the split and book with Gobus, as they would be reguarly visiting the GoBus site as you cannot book tickets through GoBe.ie, only GoBus.

This is a perfectly sensible move for GoBus to carry out to safeguard itself from any possible split later on. I agree it's not perfect, but partnerships rarely are in the business world.

cabincrewifly

As a regular user of AirCoach, Ive always found the service to be just what I needed. I would be interested in trying Gobe. €25 return to Dublin Airport and AirCoach €28.

devnull

It'll be interesting to see if they target rail passengers pro-actively in this arrangement now, seeing as you'd think with BE involved in this new service they'd be less inclined to want to attract Irish Rail passengers, as part of the CIE Group to a service ran by a competitor even if they are partnering up at the end of the day.

dowlingm

devnull wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if they target rail passengers pro-actively in this arrangement now, seeing as you'd think with BE involved in this new service they'd be less inclined to want to attract Irish Rail passengers, as part of the CIE Group to a service ran by a competitor even if they are partnering up at the end of the day.

Well it's not as if IE is under pressure on the Galway-Dublin route these days...

bk

devnull wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if they target rail passengers pro-actively in this arrangement now, seeing as you'd think with BE involved in this new service they'd be less inclined to want to attract Irish Rail passengers, as part of the CIE Group to a service ran by a competitor even if they are partnering up at the end of the day.

The fact that the service exists will put IR under pressure.

Even if they don't do great advertising, word of mouth is spreading quickly amongst the people of Cork.

However GoBus will have to advertise this service well due to the online booking only nature of the service.

devnull

As I said before, this service is totally different to the Galway situation so any comparisons are not really relevant as it's nothing more than a marketing deal with very little else. The Cork one is a fully blown partnership that BE are being expected to push and support much more heavily than the Galway market as they are much more deeper involved in this.

The partnership would really want to avoid targeting rail passengers directly because most if not all of the revenue made on GoBE will go straight to Jim Burke, and Bus Eireann would want to avoid shifting revenue from it's sister company into a private company it had partnered with, not just for money reasons but for long term security as well should the partnership break down. GoBus on the other hand will WANT to try and get such revenue away from CIE, and into their account, which is why Aircoach really now need to target such passengers in and around IR stations to attempt to cause both friction in the partnership and force BE to help take scalps out of a sister company which would be of more benefit to GoBus than itself.

dowlingm

devnull wrote: »

The partnership would really want to avoid targeting rail passengers directly because most if not all of the revenue made on GoBE will go straight to Jim Burke, and Bus Eireann would want to avoid shifting revenue from it's sister company into a private company it had partnered with, not just for money reasons but for long term security as well should the partnership break down.

Which leads to the question - if BE don't get a lot of income and there is a possibility of CIE passengers being stolen, why would they sign the deal? Jedi mind tricks by Jim Burke? Plainly there must be a significant upside for BE particularly given their letting Gobus into PP/Busaras.

As for as "sister companies", I would submit that BE hasn't much given a crap what happens to IE in the past, particularly when one recalls BE getting the bright idea for the 51X a mere 8 months after Limerick-Galway rail launched.

devnull

dowlingm wrote: »

Which leads to the question - if BE don't get a lot of income and there is a possibility of CIE passengers being stolen, why would they sign the deal? Jedi mind tricks by Jim Burke? Plainly there must be a significant upside for BE particularly given their letting Gobus into PP/Busaras.

Bus Eireann are excluded form Dublin to Cork direct without this agreement with no chance of getting involved no chance of ANY revenue from such services and will also lose passengers from their own Dublin to Cork service as they will not get a license.

GoBus themselves would need to invest a lot of money in establishing a service from scratch and from reading elsewhere balked at paying out high infrastructure and bus stop costs. This way they benefit from marketing and PR that the Bus Eireann link-up gives them and use of their facilities.

Bus Eireann without this agreement would just hemorrhage customers to GoBus, and Aircoach as they cannot respond as they're excluded from a market. They can offer GoBus things GoBus needs, and this hopefully will then allow GoBE service to fight Aircoach, who along with Citylink, thanks to their ownership, would be deemed more of a threat to BE long term.

If GoBus can beat Aircoach and remove them from the marketplace, this would free a license up on the corridor that BE could apply for to go it alone in future. The deal is not perfect for either company, in an ideal world GoBus would have the resources to not need Bus Eireann, and Bus Eireann would have their own license so they don't need to piggy back on someone elses, but it's not an ideal world.

Even with a bad deal, which they haven't got by the way, Bus Eireann is better off than what the had before yesterday, which is nothing and GoBus would have took advantage of that in it's negotiating tactics.

foggy_lad

Will people who can't get a seat on these new services be accommodated on the later X8 services using the same online ticket? This is just something that could very easily happen in Busáras because of the way CIE companies and staff operate/

Quorum

bk wrote: »

Looking at the schedule, interestingly GoBus claim they can get Cork to Dublin Airport in 3 hours 15 minutes!! While it might be possible at off peak times, I don't think it is realistic at peak times

I've even seriously doubt it at off-peak times. I've been on Aircoach late at night a few times when they'll been able to bomb it the whole way and these journeys have been between two hours 45 minutes and two hours 50 minutes. Hmmm, I suppose an extra 25 minutes would be enough to get to the airport at very quiet times, but that's it.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

Will people who can't get a seat on these new services be accommodated on the later X8 services using the same online ticket? This is just something that could very easily happen in Busáras because of the way CIE companies and staff operate/

Doubt this will happen - seats will be sold online only so sales will stop when capacity is reached.

There won't be any "Golden Tickets" accepted so no chance of somebody turning up because they've finished their buying and selling at an earlier time than planned.

Of course if Gobus decide to overbook services as a matter of course then all bets are off.

It sounds like an interesting service and I wish GoBus well.

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

Doubt this will happen - seats will be sold online only so sales will stop when capacity is reached.

There won't be any "Golden Tickets" accepted so no chance of somebody turning up because they've finished their buying and selling at an earlier time than planned.

Of course if Gobus decide to overbook services as a matter of course then all bets are off.

It sounds like an interesting service and I wish GoBus well.

Return legs of journeys do not have to be specified at time of booking so some services could end up running with few passengers and other services could have lots of return leg passengers who have left the return date/time open but it does state clearly that if you don't specify a return service you won't be guaranteed a seat. It could end up with people queuing up for hours to get a few empty seats on each bus that leaves!

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Return legs of journeys do not have to be specified at time of booking so some services could end up running with few passengers and other services could have lots of return leg passengers who have left the return date/time open but it does state clearly that if you don't specify a return service you won't be guaranteed a seat. It could end up with people queuing up for hours to get a few empty seats on each bus that leaves!

I don't think it will work this way for the new Cork service.

I don't think there will be any open return tickets, when you buy a return ticket, you have to specify a return date and time.

ynotonavillus

This is just a case of trying to hurt Air Coach, who are providing a fantastic service.

The book online, and be there 15minutes beforehand, is typical IE BE public service mindset, they are attempting to train passengers in order make life easier for the service provider.

They would do better to actually tailor the service to the realities of life, i.e. people want/need the flexibility of a walk-up service.

Somewhere within the calculations no doubt is a large figure showing the extra revenue from unused tickets as a profit. Anyway the price will probably creep up as the train did, when the honeymoon period is over.

dowlingm

ynotonavillus wrote: »

This is just a case of trying to hurt Air Coach, who are providing a fantastic service.

The book online, and be there 15minutes beforehand, is typical IE BE public service mindset, they are attempting to train passengers in order make life easier for the service provider.

They would do better to actually tailor the service to the realities of life, i.e. people want/need the flexibility of a walk-up service.

Somewhere within the calculations no doubt is a large figure showing the extra revenue from unused tickets as a profit. Anyway the price will probably creep up as the train did, when the honeymoon period is over.

The insistence by some people on this board who pick a business model they like (in this case walk up ticketing) and demand ALL public transport operations adhere to it is quite perplexing. One of the pitfalls of BE in particular and Aircoach to a lesser extent is the problem of overbooking - I have experienced it myself from both companies. Gobe have adopted a different approach where they run a certain amount of capacity but the customer can depend on getting a seat (apparently). Why does it wind people up so much when companies try to differentiate on something other than price?

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

I don't think it will work this way for the new Cork service.

I don't think there will be any open return tickets, when you buy a return ticket, you have to specify a return date and time.

http://www.gobe.ie/terms.html

The Following conditions apply to the issue of e-Tickets:
You must print your Order Confirmation number to board the coach. You must be at your departure point 15 minutes prior to departure to guarantee your reservation.Tickets are only valid for travel on the selected journey date and time. Passengers with open return tickets must pre-book the return journey to guarantee a seat. Luggage carried at owner’s risk. Issued subject to standard conditions of carriage.

I also note this part of the terms and conditions,

Make sure you are on the correct service: You are responsible for boarding and getting off the service at the correct destination.
You should arrive at the boarding point at least 15 minutes before departure: You should arrive at the boarding point for a service at least 15 minutes prior to the timetable departure for that service. The Company may give your seat to another passenger if you arrive later than the scheduled check in time, in which case you will be considered to have missed the service. The Company shall not be liable for any loss in such circumstances.

This requirement adds a further 15 minutes to the timetabled time as having to be at the departure point prior to departure should be seen as part of the journey!

bk

Foggy I'm guessing they just copied over their existing terms and conditions from the Galway service and that it won't actually be possible to do this.

Looking at the GoBus site, this seems to be the case. You can't buy a return ticket online, without specifying a return date and time. And since you can't buy tickets on the bus, therefore no open returns.

This requirement adds a further 15 minutes to the timetabled time as having to be at the departure point prior to departure should be seen as part of the journey!

Every company has this condition, no one actually enforces it. Aircoach do too and usually the bus doesn't even turn up until a minute before the scheduled departure time anyway.

BTW I think Irish Rail says 30 minutes beforehand.

ynotonavillus

dowlingm wrote: »

The insistence by some people on this board who pick a business model they like (in this case walk up ticketing) and demand ALL public transport operations adhere to it is quite perplexing. One of the pitfalls of BE in particular and Aircoach to a lesser extent is the problem of overbooking - I have experienced it myself from both companies. Gobe have adopted a different approach where they run a certain amount of capacity but the customer can depend on getting a seat (apparently). Why does it wind people up so much when companies try to differentiate on something other than price?

Who is demanding that all public transport companies adhere to anything??, I was pointing out a negative aspect of their model in the context of a discussion on the service.

Air coach. Has online booking, which guarantees you your seat, if you are there on time.

So no issue if you want to book in advance and and tie yourself to an outward and return time.

I have been to Dublin and back three times in the last few weeks and the real difference in the train and the bus is this flexibility. (aside from the cost)

Online booking only is not an attempt to differentiate on quality, other than in a negative sense, it is a way of obtaining an unseen profit from unused return tickets...

It is not a business model that favors the consumer, but it greatly disadvantages the traveler who has an upset to his plans

devnull

ynotonavillus wrote: »

Air coach. Has online booking, which guarantees you your seat, if you are there on time.

So no issue if you want to book in advance and and tie yourself to an outward and return time.

Note that you are notied to a particular date and time on Aircoach, you can use it on any service just you only are guaranteed a seat on the service you book.

Single Tickets booked online:
Will be accepted for travel on any departure on your chosen route, on the date specified on your booking. Your seat is only guaranteed on the timed journey (where applicable) specified on your booking.[

Return Tickets booked online.
The outward portion of your booking will be accepted for travel on any departure on your chosen route, on the date specified on your booking. Your seat is only guaranteed on the timed journey (where applicable) specified on your booking For the return journey your seat is only guaranteed on the date and timed journey (where applicable) specified on your booking. You can, however, use the return portion of your ticket on any journey, on any date, on your chosen route.

dowlingm

ynotonavillus wrote: »

Who is demanding that all public transport companies adhere to anything??, I was pointing out a negative aspect of their model in the context of a discussion on the service.

Online booking only is not an attempt to differentiate on quality, other than in a negative sense, it is a way of obtaining an unseen profit from unused return tickets...
[...]
It is not a business model that favors the consumer, but it greatly disadvantages the traveler who has an upset to his plans

It has been pointed out that open return systems do not guarantee seats on the return leg, and by their nature operators cannot predict loads. Yes, they will pick up some revenue from people who miss their service but that is within the control of the traveller to know the restriction and ensure they are there on time. Is that a less ethical business model than advertising a service but not being able to fulfill it because the bus is already full and a relief bus is not immediately available?

In your original post you said "They would do better to actually tailor the service to the realities of life, i.e. people want/need the flexibility of a walk-up service" - well, if people want that they will not travel on Gobe, they have alternatives to choose from. Let's see what happens rather than mould a new entrant to provide the same or similar service as incumbents.

SandyfordGuy

Just noticed on the Aircoach website that prices of the Dublin to Cork route have now been cut for online bookings and are now cheaper than the new services on most type of fares.

Latest online fares below

Cork City to Dublin City:
Adult Single: €9 (Aircoach) / €10 (GoBus)
Adult Return: €18 (Aircoach) / €20 (GoBus)
Child Single: €7 (Aircoach) / €10 (GoBus)
Child Return: €14 (Aircoach) / €15 (GoBus)

Dublin Airport to Cork
Adult Single: €15 (Aircoach) / €15 (GoBus)
Adult Return: €25 (Aircoach) / €25 (GoBus)
Child Single: €9 (Aircoach) /€12 (GoBus)
Child Return: €18 (Aircoach) / €20 (GoBus)

ynotonavillus

dowlingm wrote: »

It has been pointed out that open return systems do not guarantee seats on the return leg, and by their nature operators cannot predict loads. Yes, they will pick up some revenue from people who miss their service but that is within the control of the traveller to know the restriction and ensure they are there on time. Is that a less ethical business model than advertising a service but not being able to fulfill it because the bus is already full and a relief bus is not immediately available?

In your original post you said "They would do better to actually tailor the service to the realities of life, i.e. people want/need the flexibility of a walk-up service" - well, if people want that they will not travel on Gobe, they have alternatives to choose from. Let's see what happens rather than mould a new entrant to provide the same or similar service as incumbents.

I think you are carefully avoiding the salient point.

Air coach offer all of the convience and certainty that is offered by GOBE, IE they offer the customer the oppertunity to book on line and thus priority/certainty in the event that the bus is full. There is nothing unethical in that. in addition , They offer a walk up service.

Gobe oblige the customer to book on line.

New entrants need to be moulded to provide at least as good a service as the existing providers, if they propose to charge similar prices for essentially the same product.

They ought not be supported unless they do so, because if the new entrant succeeds he may encourage the existing provider to lower his level of service to the new standard.

As i said previously, the system that has been put in place is to suit the provider and not the customer...

cabincrewifly

Just travelled on the 14.30 from Dublin Airport to Cork with air coach....absolutely packed, 2 seats left. Majority boarded in Dublin City Centre.