Teachers union on rte news last night

average_runner

This totally shocked me last night and totally explain why our country is the way it is.


The union were saying a new teacher 2 years ago would start on salary of 40,000. Now please tell me what other industry where a graduate wet behind the ears started on 40,000?

Then to make matters worst they said the new teacher now starts on 27,000 a year, which is a big salary for a graduate still. But this new teacher had the cheek to say that its unfair for someone with 2 years experience doing the same job to be on a higher salary. The person there has more experience sweetheart than you. Cant believe we still have this attitude.

Not a dig at teacher themselves as they do good work, jsut the union attitude and the starting salary attitude.

sarumite

average_runner wrote: »

This totally shocked me last night and totally explain why our country is the way it is.


The union were saying a new teacher 2 years ago would start on salary of 40,000. Now please tell me what other industry where a graduate wet behind the ears started on 40,000?

Then to make matters worst they said the new teacher now starts on 27,000 a year, which is a big salary for a graduate still. But this new teacher had the cheek to say that its unfair for someone with 2 years experience doing the same job to be on a higher salary. The person there has more experience sweetheart than you. Cant believe we still have this attitude.

Not a dig at teacher themselves as they do good work, jsut the union attitude and the starting salary attitude.

Regardless of what you think of the amount they earn, it is unfair (an absolute disgrace in my opinion) that there is now a two tier system of paying teachers. However, the teachers unions have no ethical argument to make as they were complicit in this. They sacrificed future teachers to protect their existing members pay. If I were new to the profession I wouldn't touch a teachers union with my neighbours barge pole.

average_runner

sarumite wrote: »

Regardless of what you think of the amount they earn, it is unfair (an absolute disgrace in my opinion) that there is now a two tier system of paying teachers. However, the teachers unions have no ethical argument to make as they were complicit in this. They sacrificed future teachers to protect their existing members pay. If I were new to the profession I wouldn't touch a teachers union with my neighbours barge pole.

That two tier system exists in all industries, its a part of life

Solair

I'm not trying to get a dig in at teachers either, but they're definitely living in a rather different reality to the rest of us and even to many other public servants!

From what I can see, education spending increases largely went into paying the same people way more money to do the same job.

The choices are pretty stark - wage reductions or else close down services. If from what I can see, the state has tended to prefer to cut services rather than attempt to reduce costs.

I still think we could save a considerable amount by merging primary schools too. There are too many versions of the same school in the same area ie: various religious orders, Catholic, Church of Ireland, Gaelscoil, Educate Together etc not to mention boys schools and girls schools. Everyone of those has a highly paid principal, à load of overheads like buildings, facilities etc etc

there are major savings that could be made by modernising education. It could also deliver better service in terms of facilities by sharing them and reducing the number of principals and management grades by 50 percent.

We've let vested interests run riot in health and education and it's left us with relatively bad service being provided at enormous cost.

sarumite

average_runner wrote: »

That two tier system exists in all industries, its a part of life

Does that make it fair?

RandolphEsq

sarumite wrote: »

Does that make it fair?

I don't think it does, but life isn't fair! Relative fairness can usually be contrasted to relative unfairness.

3DataModem

Same thing happened in the banks in the 80s. New entrants had a totally different lay scale than existing employees. They were referred to as "yellow pack" staff.

As the poster above said... it's the unions who force this... protect existing salaries at the expense of new staff.

sarumite

RandolphEsq wrote: »

I don't think it does, but life isn't fair! Relative fairness can usually be contrasted to relative unfairness.

Ok, but is there something wrong with an employee complaining about unequal treatment in the workforce? Are they somehow in the wrong if they "have the cheek" to point out this inequality?

Personally I think the government should be the leaders in how to treat employee fairly and not what has happened here where they have made a workplace less fair than it was previously. By taking such regressive actions, it only encourages other employers to follow suit. While I have absolutely no respect for the teachers unions, I can at least sympathise with new teachers who relative to their peers are getting a pretty raw deal.

The Clown Man

I just learned yesterday from a teacher, just hired, that she and all the other teachers in the school will be going in a day early before the term starts to do what they call their "Croke Park Hours."

Essentially, they are going to sit in the school for 6 hours to get their unpaid overtime hours agreed in the CPA "out of the way."

I find this frankly disgusting.

That on top of the many other stories I have heard directly from teachers regarding their union makes me think they are by far the most anti-Ireland union in the country. Seriously, how do they get away with this?

average_runner

sarumite wrote: »

Ok, but is there something wrong with an employee complaining about unequal treatment in the workforce? Are they somehow in the wrong if they "have the cheek" to point out this inequality?

Personally I think the government should be the leaders in how to treat employee fairly and not what has happened here where they have made a workplace less fair than it was previously. By taking such regressive actions, it only encourages other employers to follow suit. While I have absolutely no respect for the teachers unions, I can at least sympathise with new teachers who relative to their peers are getting a pretty raw deal.

Yes they are wrong to complain, because the other person had 2 years more experience. If she had said the person that started the same day as her was on 13g more for the same job, then i would agree.

Solair

At the figures being quoted, those are still very good entry level wages.
It might be fairer to just give the whole profession and the Department of Education itself a % reduction across the board, but we all know that's just never going to happen.

The Government is afraid to take on the unions because it doesn't really have the bottle to.

I also suspect that they're terrified that if the 'markets' see large-scale industrial action in Ireland that it might tarnish our image as having handled this adjustment with a more 'Northern European' stoic, calm, approach.

The reality of the situation is that the public sector wage bill was inflated based on windfall taxes on property speculation which was coming from borrowed money entering the system from the banking sector via mortgagees granted to property developers and home buyers.

If we cannot pay those wages out of taxation, then we have to either cut them, or increase taxes massively. We cannot just keep going on borrowing more and more money. It just does not add up.

The Clown Man

Also,

The union has worked hard to keep their existing members cosy and safe in their overpaid (by EU equivilent standards) jobs at the expense of the new generation of teachers, unhired, who are all moving to Korea and the like to do TEFL courses simply because the education budget is being absorbed by incumbant teachers on boomtime wages.

Fact is that the job market is flooded with keen new teachers who just want a job in Ireland rather than move abroad, and will happily accept 27k (a very good starting wage compared to their peers in almost any other industry) just to start their careers.

Supply and demand created by the union in the first place. What did they think was going to happen exactly?

Let these kids get a job and even on 27k their future looks a whole lot brighter than it did before.

juan.kerr

I thought the unions were all for 'increments'...

average_runner

The Clown Man wrote: »

Also,

The union has worked hard to keep their existing members cosy and safe in their overpaid (by EU equivilent standards) jobs at the expense of the new generation of teachers, unhired, who are all moving to Korea and the like to do TEFL courses simply because the education budget is being absorbed by incumbant teachers on boomtime wages.

Fact is that the job market is flooded with keen new teachers who just want a job in Ireland rather than move abroad, and will happily accept 27k (a very good starting wage compared to their peers in almost any other industry) just to start their careers.

Supply and demand created by the union in the first place. What did they think was going to happen exactly?

Let these kids get a job and even on 27k their future looks a whole lot brighter than it did before.

I think after the next budget, you can see middle class Ireland saying enough is enough and massive walk on the dail some sat.

Jogathon

The Clown Man wrote: »

I just learned yesterday from a teacher, just hired, that she and all the other teachers in the school will be going in a day early before the term starts to do what they call their "Croke Park Hours."

Essentially, they are going to sit in the school for 6 hours to get their unpaid overtime hours agreed in the CPA "out of the way."

I find this frankly disgusting.
QUOTE]

How is this disgusting? We are doing ours today (at ten!) before school tomorrow. It'll be a hard day of meetings and organising. I think it's exactly what overtime should be used for. However, the teacher you know could have described what she does a little better. We certainly won't be sitting there counting down the hours. I've got a major clean-up operation planned for after the meeting too!

Permabear

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The Clown Man

Jogathon wrote: »

How is this disgusting? We are doing ours today (at ten!) before school tomorrow. It'll be a hard day of meetings and organising. I think it's exactly what overtime should be used for. However, the teacher you know could have described what she does a little better. We certainly won't be sitting there counting down the hours. I've got a major clean-up operation planned for after the meeting too!

She's a new teacher. She describes it like she sees it. Or like she was told it was. One way or the other it reeks.

Isn't pre-planning supposed to be done as part of the 3-4 months of paid summer vacation? Or is that just a straight perk and nothing is expected to be done at all?

Also, before the CPA, was this pre-planning done as a matter of course?

Sleepy

average_runner wrote: »

That two tier system exists in all industries, its a part of life

Not really no. In my industry (IT) you're paid a function of what you're worth and what you can negotiate. Where you end up being paid less than what you're worth, you find someone who will pay you what your worth or you lump it. Where you've negotiated a higher salary than the value you bring to the organisation, you're let go or given a pay-cut.

The two tier system is inherently unfair: it was bull**** when the IBOA negotiated it with their employers in the 80's and it's arguably worse to see the teachers unions doing it when so many teachers burn out and end up worth less than the new entrants whilst they wait out their pensions in virtually unsackable positions.

This is where the government should have been paying attention to the real private sector. Margaret Heffernan has actually shown them how to deal with the unions in her dealings with Mandate: negotiate one thing with them and then turn around and give the staff a better deal. Divide and conquer. Make the unions look like the morons they are.

In the case of the Education Sector, Minister Quinn should be turning around and saying "Well, we've realised it's unfair to new entrants to be on a different scale to the existing staff so we're putting everyone on this new scale that's somewhere between the two". Divide and conquer. Make the newer teachers realise that the unions don't give a fvck about them and if the older teachers don't deem their reduced salary worth their while, let them leave. We're not exactly short of qualified teachers looking for work.

Pebble on the Beach

The Clown Man wrote: »

Isn't pre-planning supposed to be done as part of the 3-4 months of paid summer vacation? Or is that just a straight perk and nothing is expected to be done at all? QUOTE]

Not all teachers get paid for their summer vacation .....

The Clown Man

Pebble on the Beach wrote: »

Not all teachers get paid for their summer vacation .....

Please do expand on that ...

Geuze

I do think it's a bit unfair that new teachers face 3-4 cuts to pay, while recently retired teachers took 1 (small) cut to their pensions.

juan.kerr

Geuze wrote: »

I do think it's a bit unfair that new teachers face 3-4 cuts to pay, while recently retired teachers took 1 (small) cut to their pensions.

And the 'recently retired' teachers are probably coming back as temps etc.

Geuze

Graduates joining the Aldi area management programme start at 60k.

For the long-run success of society, isn't it important that we attract high quality candidates into teaching?

Yes, they should be more accountable, yes they should be more flexible, yes outdated work practices must cease, but I don't think any successful society that values education will thrive by paying teachers low wages. Mind you, starting on 27k is still ok.

Tipp Man

Why are we not moving all teachers to the new pay scale is the question that should be asked?

(corresponding movement in retired teachers pensions also)

mikemac1

Geuze wrote: »

Graduates joining the Aldi area management programme start at 60k.

For the long-run success of society, isn't it important that we attract high quality candidates into teaching?

Yes, they should be more accountable, yes they should be more flexible, yes outdated work practices must cease, but I don't think any successful society that values education will thrive by paying teachers low wages. Mind you, starting on 27k is still ok.

And Aldi will have you working 60-70 hours a week

Teachers on full hours won't come near that and then there is the Christmas, Easter and summer break which don't exist in most jobs

We had a huge thread on Aldi, big money, big stress and hardly anyone can last beyond a few years
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054960661

60k for 52 weeks a year versus 27k for shorter hours and longer holidays.
The difference isn't as far apart as you think

juan.kerr

Geuze wrote: »

Graduates joining the Aldi area management programme start at 60k.

That's hardly representative of the private sector.

Zulu

Sleepy wrote: »

In the case of the Education Sector, Minister Quinn should be turning around and saying "Well, we've realised it's unfair to new entrants to be on a different scale to the existing staff so we're putting everyone on this new scale that's somewhere between the two". Divide and conquer. Make the newer teachers realise that the unions don't give a fvck about them and if the older teachers don't deem their reduced salary worth their while, let them leave. We're not exactly short of qualified teachers looking for work.

Kudos Sleepy, great post. Where do I sign up?

ardmacha

From what I can see, education spending increases largely went into paying the same people way more money to do the same job.

At one level teaching, being a Judge etc may be much the same job in 2012 as in 1912, as you suggesting that people just be paid 1912 salaries? Provided they do their job to current standards, they should get current salaries.

However, a good deal the education spending has gone into teaching more students. The view here seems to be that if people have more children that teachers salaries should be reduced accordingly to keep expenditure down.

The two tier thing will have to go and seems an obvious thing to address as we move away from the CPA. However you cannot demand a low starting rate for graduates and then oppose increments as a means of those graduates earning more later in their careers.

Permabear

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20Cent

According to the salary scale it takes 8 years to be on 40k. Where does this 40k after two years come from?

http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html

Permabear

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AwayWithFaries

The Clown Man wrote: »

Isn't pre-planning supposed to be done as part of the 3-4 months of paid summer vacation? Or is that just a straight perk and nothing is expected to be done at all? QUOTE]

Not all teachers get paid for their summer vacation .....

You're telling me a teacher on 27,000 per year doesn't get paid for summer holidays?

Does that mean in reality the they are only getting 20250(27000/12 *9) a year?

juan.kerr

Permabear wrote: »

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Is this like the Garda rent allowance that every Guard can claim even if not renting? I teach on the island...of Ireland...

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Still not adding up to 40k unless you teach science through Irish in a comprehensive school on an island.

Geuze

A teacher's pay is made up of three elements.

Basic pay + degree allowance + H.Dip.Ed. allowance.

Also, you may be looking at the new, 10% lower scales.

On the old scales, with an honours degree and a honours H.Dip.Ed, starting at point 3, the salary was about 40k.

Permabear

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Zulu

Permabear wrote: »

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But I live in an Irish speaking area & can speak Irish. And I know science.

juan.kerr

Permabear wrote: »

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in flower picking or some other subject that has no relevance to the job.

Permabear

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CONSI

To be fair to teachers they are regularly the one's that get it in the neck at this time of year, and yes they have had cuts to deal with. I know teachers will say that it was an option open to everyone to become a teacher and that people shouldn't complain about the wages etc as they could have gone down that route and thats fair enough, I'd make an awful teacher so not something I would like to do. However teachers don't have to deal with the daily, "is what we've sold enought to cover our outlays" concerns. They are generally protected, very few "bad" teachers get found out, and there are some (very few) out there,but they are not losing their jobs due to results...€27k is a good start wage when you can add a few extra €k for degree(with should be minimum requirement for teacher really). I've hired a few people this year on €22k and we had lots of people willing to take that for what is a tough job with challenging targets which if we don't achieve means the job isn't there anymore...these teachers are complaining about starting on say €27k+€3k? and only getting their increments then..not performance based as far as I know. I know if my company doesn't perform their is no bonus and their has been no pay rise for 6 years, and this year we had to take unpaid holidays...so teachers, I know you feel hard done by, but feel a bit of compassion for the private sector..we all didn't make millions out of the good years...and it's not a go at teachers per say, rather the overall public sector, it's just this time of year is when you get in the spotlight...

folan

the island allowance is to allow for the commuting to and from the islands. very few teachers live where they work.

Croke park hours are a joke, it doesnt help planning or any cross teacher supports as it can only be counted if all teachers are present at the same time. so all its doing is making sure that the previously unhelpful and not interested are just there now, making the hard work the teachers who do care are doing more disjointed and less helpful.

at the end of the day, the crux of the issue is the competency of the teachers means nothing. as already pointed out, theres a massive percentage of teachers who are performing in an unsatisfactory manner, coasting by on their cushy wages and doing the bare minimum, while young, educated and motivated teachers are left on a lower salary with no job security. if the unions really cared about the students, and they really dont come across as caring about anyone other than themselves, they would be more welcoming of a reform of teacher tenure and mandatory inspections.

folan

Permabear wrote: »

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head of company eventually hires less skilled worker.

Heroditas

folan wrote: »

the island allowance is to allow for the commuting to and from the islands. very few teachers live where they work.

Very few people live where they work – they don’t get an allowance for their travel though.

folan

Heroditas wrote: »

Very few people live where they work – they don’t get an allowance for their travel though.

very few people commute to islands too. theres no tax saver ticket for ferries.

also, its something thats considered when accepting a salary.

folan

would everyone be as upset with teachers if their salaries were reduced, but the money moved into learning support, resources etc?

It my firm belief that the answer is no. And if the Dept gives the choice to the Unions, I cant see the Union gaining any support.

probably doesnt help that the leaders of the country are teachers too though.

Permabear

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Dave0301

To give a perspective from a NQT the hate towards teachers in the public sector is both understandable and yet frustrating.

The unions most certainly hung all NQT out to dry for the sake of keeping current wages intact. There are some teachers I know that due to getting their Dept. of Education payroll say a month apart will now have different salaries due to the freeze on extra pay for qualifications. The result being a two tier pay system which is frustrating.

However people saying that teaching graduates starting on €27000 is a great salary, the fact of the matter is none of us are. All that has to be done is take a cursory look at the teaching forum on here or any of the teaching job listings to see that there are no full time teaching posts available. Some posts being as little as 6 hours. This if only part time, won't include pay during the summer.

Out of I think 27 graduating from my year roughly 16 will be moving abroad or going on to post graduate study. Maybe teaching was a handy number a few years ago but it most certainly isn't the case for the foreseeable future.

folan

Permabear wrote: »

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seeing as were still hearing about a shortage in a large number of technology sectors, yes there is. its the relevance of the degree.

im not saying that the degree automatically should entitle a teacher to more money. It should be an expectation of the position.

however, additional RELEVANT training, degrees, diplomas should be reflected in salaries (though a bump of 3+k is crazy large). otherwise, there will be no innovations in the classroom. this is, of course, without mandating such courses over the summer break for teachers, required for their CPD. training is both a right and a responsibility, and a means to a better career and thus better salary

SerialComplaint

Permabear wrote: »

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Comparing base salaries like this across countries is meaningless - apples and oranges. Unless you start comparing cost of living too.

folan wrote: »

would everyone be as upset with teachers if their salaries were reduced, but the money moved into learning support, resources etc?

Why would we expect teachers to pay the prices of learning supports and other resources? If we need extra learning supports and other resources, we pay for them out of taxation - it's not up to teachers to fund other public services.

Geuze

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-prior-to-january-2011/

Here's the higher scale.

Starting at point 3 = 33,041
plus Hon degree = 4,918
plus hon H.Dip.Ed = 1,236

means 39,195 starting pay.

NB: not many starting teachers got full-time permanent jobs.

folan

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Why would we expect teachers to pay the prices of learning supports and other resources? If we need extra learning supports and other resources, we pay for them out of taxation - it's not up to teachers to fund other public services.

good point. I accept the premise, but reject the idea that its not up to teachers to fund other public services.

my point is this.
The Dept pays for Teachers, learning support etc etc.
it currently pays what many see as an overly large salary to teachers, leaving a lot less for the other services.
what im suggesting is re appropriating the cost, reducing the teacher wage bill and increasing spend on other areas.

What your suggesting is raising everyones taxes, which has taken a massive toll on everyone, teachers included, to pay for them. Leading to lower teacher salaries anyway.