Performance enhancing Drugs

Stoner

As the game is developing more towards a fitness running game, it might be reasonable to assume that a county will look for an edge, that extra 5 or 10%. The extra strength or drive to train. A players running, endurance and ability to break a tackle would all be improved with by performance enhancing drugs. In the light Mr. Armstrong and having titles taken from him, is there any chance something like this will happen in the GAA.

Mountainlad

It's not like Lance Armstrong doping is a recent thing. It's been around in cycling and athletics and indeed weightlifting for a long time. I don't think there is an issue in the GAA, I don't think it will happen and I think it would be pointless worrying about it.

There are tests in place already. I'm don't think anyone would get away with it.

RobFowl

Mountainlad wrote: »

There are tests in place already. I'm don't think anyone would get away with it.

Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong never officially failed any of the hundreds of tests they had done.
Doping is unfortunately an issue in all sports and there is no reason GAA would be any different.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Stinicker

Kerry's Aidan O'Mahony tested positive for using an Asthma inhaler after the 2008 all-Ireland, it was nothing untoward but it just shows they can detect stuff in the system.

I remember a few Tyrone players were drugs tested before a game with Meath a few years ago, however they were notified of this in advance and subsequently tested negative. They played very bad and lost the match the same day and IIRC it raised alot of eyebrows.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/gaelic-football/four-tyrone-players-drug-tested-ahead-of-all-ireland-quarter-final-1050654.html

Hammer Archer

Stinicker wrote: »

I remember a few Tyrone players were drugs tested before a game with Meath a few years ago, however they were notified of this in advance and subsequently tested negative. They played very bad and lost the match the same day and IIRC it raised alot of eyebrows.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/gaelic-football/four-tyrone-players-drug-tested-ahead-of-all-ireland-quarter-final-1050654.html

No, it did not raise a lot of eyebrows at all. You really are on top trolling form the last 24 hours.

bruschi

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

any evidence of why you think drug taking is happening? or how players would be harder to get caught at it, considering there has been for a number of years a drug testing regime and informed squads of what is not permitted?

Frankie Lee

There was one team in the late 80's and 90's that allegedly had a competitive edge due to their managers knowledge of herbal medicine.

Neeson

Frankie Lee wrote: »

There was one team in the late 80's and 90's that allegedly had a competitive edge due to their managers knowledge of herbal medicine.

Who?

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Hammer Archer wrote: »

No, it did not raise a lot of eyebrows at all. You really are on top trolling form the last 24 hours.

Credit where credit is due, that was a good attempt:pac:

I'd be surprised myself if the GAA was totally clean. These are only part time players after all, there's bound to be a few on drugs, I'd say by and large it's clean though.

Jimminy Mc Fukhead

Frankie Lee wrote: »

There was one team in the late 80's and 90's that allegedly had a competitive edge due to their managers knowledge of herbal medicine.

In the long term, some prominent members of that team suffered brain damage as a result

Mountainlad

I'm not gonna say there is better testing being done than say by WADA or whatever. I just think that if someone took them, someone else would know, and we'd find out. This is Ireland we're talking about. I'd like to see some GAA players try and conceal a drugs scam with the sophistication of that which Lance Armstrong managed, it's not everyone that manages to evade the authorities for 13 years.

And I don't get why this issue is raised now. Drug taking in sports like cycling and athletics is nothing new, nor are the legitimate suspicions about Armstrong and it would be naive to think that people who could have taken appropriate action against him didn't know what was happening.

darced

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royaler83

Frankie Lee wrote: »

There was one team in the late 80's and 90's that allegedly had a competitive edge due to their managers knowledge of herbal medicine.

Or were they successfull because they had some of the best footballers of that generation.

They played another team regularly around that time who were just as successfull, had they any alleged competitive edge?! :rolleyes:

Clareman

Speculation into teams/individuals carrying out illegal activities such as taking performance enhancing drugs is against the charter, unless you have proof of an act DO NOT SPECULATE. This will be the only warning on this thread.

Clareman

I would point out that the GAA has signed up to drug testing and most inter-county players are tested, and for people who want to cast stones as to the GAA being a secretrative organization that would be clearing up stuff, I would suggest comparing the GAA to other similar organisations with team sports and their catching of offenders. Beside Rio Ferdinand being banned for missing a test and Adrian Mutu failing for cocaine, I can't remember any top level soccer players, in rugby most of the failed tests I believe are for recreational drugs or for players coming through that are trying to bulk up.

Stoner

Do they hold on to the records? is there any indication that in years to come that can strip titles if tests are found to be positive like in the Olympics?

Clareman

I've never heard of a team being punished because of an individual failing a test (excluding relay teams of course)

Nermal

Clareman wrote: »

I would point out that the GAA has signed up to drug testing and most inter-county players are tested, and for people who want to cast stones as to the GAA being a secretrative organization that would be clearing up stuff, I would suggest comparing the GAA to other similar organisations with team sports and their catching of offenders. Beside Rio Ferdinand being banned for missing a test and Adrian Mutu failing for cocaine, I can't remember any top level soccer players, in rugby most of the failed tests I believe are for recreational drugs or for players coming through that are trying to bulk up.

The only reason more positive tests show up in cycling and athletics is that testing in all other sports is laughable. The reason you don't see failed tests is that the tests are infrequent, can't catch what is being taken (just look at Balco - the only reason their designer steroids were found was because of a whistleblower providing a sample) and are calibrated never to show false positives.

Informed observers would say most (definitely 60%+) athletes at the Olympics are dopers - depending on the event, close to 100%. There's no reason to think that soccer, rugby or GAA is any different. Amateurism is no shield. If you think that someone wouldn't dope in a skills-based sport like soccer - you don't think recovering from training faster helps? Getting over injuries faster, or having more gas at the end of the game? Every edge counts, no matter how small (this is why I laugh at TeamGB cycling's explanation for it's "stunning" performance, "multiple small advantages").

I have to say a side-effect of doing a bit of digging in this means watching sport is no longer really enjoyable.

Stoner

neither have I, I guess it depends on the scale, for example if there were two or three players from the same team who future tests showed they used recreational drugs removing a league or AI title might be harsh, but if a team that four or five guys who had performance enhancing drugs and were discovered 5 years later it would be a different story. Big can of worms I guess, every team they won against would claim the vacant title, if it ever did happen it would possible just become a void title. Big if though.

I actually meant to put the removing of the titles in the OP as may happen to Armstrong.

Clareman

Armstrong didn't beat anyone else though, he was the fastest to go around the course, they can award the prize to whomever is the next fastest. For knockout sports this is completely different, for example, the team who were beaten in the semi final could say they were better than the team beaten in the final, e.g. lost by 2 points in the semi whereas the team in the final lost by 3, or the guys who were banned didn't score in the final but did in the semi, and so on and so on.

Mountainlad

I would be confident that none of the inter county players in my county are doping. I would be confident that if there are any cases at club level, they are very much so the exception in the County. Recreational drug use is different, and there would definitely be some cases of that but there are no benefits to that, are there?

I know GAA has progressed a lot in terms of training and the demands but on players, but it is still nothing on the demands of some Olympic sports and cycling in the Tour de France.

And while things have improved a lot in cycling, the testing was a joke for a very long time.

And I don't think cheating is as rewarding for GAA players.

Think about how much money out of endorsements that Armstrong has made. You won't get that in the GAA, and while Lance Armstrong may know be shamed, it would be nothing in comparisons to a GAA player walking into his local pub and not a friendly word spoken to him.

At the very worst, there could be a small minority at the highest level of the sports guilty of it, but even then I'd like to see some actual evidence being given by the people who have done their 'digging' rather than accusations like 'it must be happening because it happens in other sports'.

Stoner

Clareman wrote: »

Armstrong didn't beat anyone else though, he was the fastest to go around the course, they can award the prize to whomever is the next fastest. For knockout sports this is completely different, for example, the team who were beaten in the semi final could say they were better than the team beaten in the final, e.g. lost by 2 points in the semi whereas the team in the final lost by 3, or the guys who were banned didn't score in the final but did in the semi, and so on and so on.

i agree, it was more or less my point too. I understand that its a difficult post for you to Mod, and I have zero evidence at hand I was just considering how important strength, stamina etc are in the game now. If we look back at how Michelle smith was treated, the testers were suspicious because she went from a good competitor to winning 4 medals in a what they decided was a short period of time, they said she came from nowhere so they zoned in on her. She/we still have the medals, regardless of what way you look at it mud sticks, so it was possibly not a wise thread to start, I for one have zero objection to it being closed if its going to sit here a tempt a dodgy post.

johnayo

Mod EditVery poor troll attempt

Clareman

If someone wants to have a dodgy post then they can have a ban

With individuals there can be a marked improvement in performance that can look out of place, this can be tracked, for teams this is different, in the GAA there is usually a history of underage success (e.g. Clare and Offaly in the 90s linked to the 89 minors), in soccer you can have new signings/coaches, in rugby there usually a transformation over a few years.

My stance on drugs is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, if someone is taking/doing something now that is improving their performance but it isn't banned then they are fine, the examples I usually bring out when discussing doping are the South Africa rugby team of 95, they pretty much kicked every ball dead over the end line to regain possession from the 22 drop out, the rules were changed afterwards for a scrum back and the suits in swimming, the records still stand.

An easy example would be to even look at a player who has started off with a really skinny frame and suddenly bulked up to the average players weight, eg 12 stone?

That's the scenario where it would crop up, it would be players who find it impossible to gain weight as apposed to players coming our looking like rugby players.

It would not be noticeable to your average fan and would probably be done over say two off seasons so the results wouldn't be drastically noticeable, that said I doubt many would do it but I imagine it has been done.

Clareman

There wouldn't be a huge benefit for a team to have 1 player "bulk" up, most training plans would be done for individuals in a team environment, I would imagine if 1 player was to start to stand out they management would sport something, could also lead to impacts with the skills of the game.

solarith

Mountainlad wrote: »

I would be confident that none of the inter county players in my county are doping. I would be confident that if there are any cases at club level, they are very much so the exception in the County. Recreational drug use is different, and there would definitely be some cases of that but there are no benefits to that, are there?

I know GAA has progressed a lot in terms of training and the demands but on players, but it is still nothing on the demands of some Olympic sports and cycling in the Tour de France.

And while things have improved a lot in cycling, the testing was a joke for a very long time.

And I don't think cheating is as rewarding for GAA players.

Think about how much money out of endorsements that Armstrong has made. You won't get that in the GAA, and while Lance Armstrong may know be shamed, it would be nothing in comparisons to a GAA player walking into his local pub and not a friendly word spoken to him.

At the very worst, there could be a small minority at the highest level of the sports guilty of it, but even then I'd like to see some actual evidence being given by the people who have done their 'digging' rather than accusations like 'it must be happening because it happens in other sports'.

Doping doesn't have to be the extreme nature of Armstrong's blood transfusions. Under the GAA regulations, things like Berocca and even lemsip would fail a drugs test and constitute doping.

Clareman

1 type of lemsip makes you fail, can't remember is it's the blackcurrant or the lemon 1 that did it, 1 was safe and the other wasn't

TheNap

Interesting topic.

Would people consider creatine and other types of supplements as Performace Enhancers ?

Obviously is one team is taking them and another isnt then they have an unfair advantage.

Where do you draw the line

solarith

TheNap wrote: »

Interesting topic.

Would people consider creatine and other types of supplements as Performace Enhancers ?

Obviously is one team is taking them and another isnt then they have an unfair advantage.

Where do you draw the line

It's not classed as a performance enhancer as it naturally occurs in the body. I know some other things naturally occur in body and you can fail for extreme levels but not creatine AFAIK.

TheNap

solarith wrote: »

It's not classed as a performance enhancer as it naturally occurs in the body. I know some other things naturally occur in body and you can fail for extreme levels but not creatine AFAIK.

Im just saying if one person is taking it and the other isnt then is it not an unfair advantage. And taking a scoop of powder out of a tub mixing it with water and ramming it down your throat 2 times a day doesnt seem natural to me. Maybe im just old school

fearcruach

TheNap wrote: »

Im just saying if one person is taking it and the other isnt then is it not an unfair advantage. And taking a scoop of powder out of a tub mixing it with water and ramming it down your throat 2 times a day doesnt seem natural to me. Maybe im just old school

Creatine is found naturally in beef. Powders (protein, creatine) are for convenience.

solarith

TheNap wrote: »

Im just saying if one person is taking it and the other isnt then is it not an unfair advantage. And taking a scoop of powder out of a tub mixing it with water and ramming it down your throat 2 times a day doesnt seem natural to me. Maybe im just old school

But the person who drinks 2 bottles of water a day has an advantage, too?

Mountainlad

solarith wrote: »

Doping doesn't have to be the extreme nature of Armstrong's blood transfusions. Under the GAA regulations, things like Berocca and even lemsip would fail a drugs test and constitute doping.

I heard that before yeah. But they can take some painkillers, so there are exceptions.

Obviously, if someone failed a drugs test on account of having a berocca you would say 'Well it was stupid, he should know the rules' but he wouldn't be shamed.

It's not really cheating though for someone to forgetfully have a lemsip when they're sick.

I'm talking about accusations of people actually cheating here.

Mountainlad

TheNap wrote: »

Im just saying if one person is taking it and the other isnt then is it not an unfair advantage. And taking a scoop of powder out of a tub mixing it with water and ramming it down your throat 2 times a day doesnt seem natural to me. Maybe im just old school

It's not an advantage if everybody is allowed use it. The people that aren't taking it, could take it, if they decided it would be beneficial.