Football Refereeing

DDC1990

I know we have had many threads on the standard of refereeing over the years on this forum, but I don't think I've ever seen such an abject performance by a referee, then the one I've just witnessed in the Mayo vs Meath Minor Semi-Final.

The RTE analysts described the performance as "Pathetic", and that was putting it mildly.

He constantly broke the flow of the game up in the second half giving needless yellow cards.
He then stopped giving Mayo frees as soon as they went 6 points up. They couldn't get past the half way line because they're game relied on runners off the shoulder, but Meath started to take the runners out off the ball and got away with it.
I know referees like to let a team back in the game, but this was rediculous. Don't get me wrong, Mayo had many other failings. They got tired, they got sloppy and dropped a lot of ball in the back line. They also went ultra defensive, and lost midfield.
However they were still in control of the game until the referee gave Meath a sideline, after a Meath played pushed a Mayo player out over the line with two hands. From the line ball, Meath won the break and had a shot on goal. A Mayo player 3 meters away from the man shooting, slid on one knee and the ball hit off his leg. The referee gave a penalty for a footblock, either not knowing the rules of the game, or deliberatly giving Meath an opportunity to level the game.

The damage was done then, and Meath were piling forward. A Meath player broke through and landed on the ground still holding the ball, which most referee's would give as a free out. He then rolled over and threw the ball towards his nearest teamate, who proceded to control the ball on the ground. The referee ignore this and the Meath player had a shot which was halfblocked and fell to another Meath player, who fumbled the ball before another Meath player kicked the ball to the back of the net.

While the blame cannot be placed on the Referee's shoulders, there is a panel of 24 young men who have missed out on the biggest day of their lives because of Cathal O'Hagan's shambolic display of refereeing. I have refereed at underage and at schools level. I know it can be difficult, and you can't get everything right. An All Ireland Semi-Final brings huge pressure for a referee as well, and mistakes are going to be made. However, it is clear that this referee was not up to refereeing at this level.

Anyway, my question is what can be done? How can we make sure these sort of displays don't become the norm. This display will be ignored because its "only the minors", but the refereeing at Senior level has been shambolic this year as well. The Gaa has money, can they put serious resources into trainign referees? I know despite refereeing at underage level, I'd never be willing to make the step up to senior level, because the pressure, the abuse and the complete lack of training that is available to referees these days.

cossy09

Could not agree more. Well said. It was a complete an utter disgrace to award the line ball and then the penalty for a foot block WTF? I have no loyalty to either team and Mayo did not do themselves any favours by not scoring for most of the second half but the referee completly ruined the game.

DDC1990

As if to enforce my point, David Coldrick has followed a similar line in the senior game, of refereeing one team and not the other.

Donegal seem to get frees for nothing, whereas Cork are being fouled left right and center without any whistle.

Again no loyalty towards any team, but its getting rediculous at this stage!

Tipperary animal lover

Both ref's bad today, the minor one was a disgrace.....

Pegasusbridge

Maybe it looked different on the tv but from my spot in the hogan it looked like coldrick got most of the decisions correct. Donegal won because they were the better team. I agree the ref in the minor match was poor but Meath were on the receiving end of plenty of wrong decisions too. Mayo dominated at times and so did Meath. It was tight but Mayo invited Meath on to them in the second half and Meath took their chances. The ref made a few wrong calls but that happens.

JonathanAnon

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Both ref's bad today, the minor one was a disgrace.....

That foot block decision was absolutely shocking.

DDC1990

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

Maybe it looked different on the tv but from my spot in the hogan it looked like coldrick got most of the decisions correct. Donegal won because they were the better team. I agree the ref in the minor match was poor but Meath were on the receiving end of plenty of wrong decisions too. Mayo dominated at times and so did Meath. It was tight but Mayo invited Meath on to them in the second half and Meath took their chances. The ref made a few wrong calls but that happens.

I dunno, his interpretation of the tackle varied hugely today. Cork lads were being tugged back by ther jersey quickly, and surrounded by guys flailing arms in, but free's out were given.

Donegal on the other hand were given some very soft frees, some for literally running at the Cork player and going down. Thats Barging IMO, but Donegal often win frees for that.

Not saying that the referee had anything to do with Cork losing or Donegal winning, I just thought he was very tough on Cork and quite easy on Donegal. When Donegal really got a run on Cork, Coldrick was anonymous, which is the best compliment you can pay a referee. It was fast paced and he let the game flow very well.

I don't think I'd put too much blame on Coldrick, because the tackle law is so so vague, it was just odd that some frees were given to one side that the other side were never going to get.

woodoo

As a neutral i felt that the ref started to give cork a few soft decisions when they were 5 or 6 points down.

DDC1990

woodoo wrote: »

As a neutral i felt that the ref started to give cork a few soft decisions when they were 5 or 6 points down.

Still, thats no better.

The minor referee did that, and Meath ended up winning!

There has to be a solution, before it gets out of hand!

The "Give Respect Get Respect" campaign has failed miserably, because the Intercounty Referees are so poor, that they often have a major bearing on which way the match is decided, which leads to a lot of fustrated players!

yop

Ref in 2nd game had a good game, did slip a bit in the 2nd half but felt he did his job.

As for the minor, well it was the worst I have seen in a long time. That said 27 mins without a score isn't good.

bohsboy

Thought that Mayo team were filthy, that back three kicked, punched and goaded Meath players on and off the ball. Delighted Meath came back.

Senior match, I was very impressed with the ref. Best display of the season imo.

homerjay2005

to be honest lads, i dont totally blame the refs, i blame the authorities. im playing football for 23 years and i did a reffing course a few years back. the amount of bulls*it rules in there is astounding and these refs are being pressured every week into enforcing them.

letting a game flow, is not allowed according to the rules, there is no advantage rule as such in the rule book and this is something that needs to come in and be rectified.

yop

bohsboy wrote: »

Thought that Mayo team were filthy, that back three kicked, punched and goaded Meath players on and off the ball. Delighted Meath came back.
.

LOL, you have to be trolling us with tripe like that! We are talking about Meath here..... comment of the day that.

RoscommonTom

Well if i was a mayo man I would be raging, that ref was pure diar, worst I have ever seen I think. They did themselfs no favors with the deep defending in the second half though and the two lads what went off injured after running into each other had been playing great. Must be a sickener to lose cos of a clown of a ref like that, he must be having relations with the meath manager. Thought the ref in the second game was very good

bohsboy

yop wrote: »

LOL, you have to be trolling us with tripe like that! We are talking about Meath here..... comment of the day that.

No, I stand by it. Check the "groping" incident by the Mayo defender after yet another free given against him. Around the 45 minute mark. Couldn't believe my eyes.

Not a Meath fan at all but delighted to see them come back and win.

Frankie Lee

In the first half of the Senior game Coldrick definitely was giving cork nothing while Donegal were getting very handy frees.
Another thing that annoys me with Coldrick is the way he wastes so much time giving lectures along with his yellow cards.

rebel girl 15

Most of the regular posters in here would know me as fairly unbiased, and knowledgeable about the rules but I thought Coldrick made some bad calls in the first half, especially with the pickups. I didn't see a foul in the last free he gave Donegal, but I could be biased in that one, thought it was a 50:50 challenge. In fairness, he was good overall, so can't fault him

There is big problems with both halves of the official guide, rugby in comparison is very black and white, whereas GAA has a lot of interpretation and grey areas left to the referees which ends up with a lot of disparities between games. Problem is that intercounty referees are very focused on the assessor that is rating them, and that can play into getting calls right and wrong on the day.

The abuse referees are getting at club games is actually stopping the growth of younger referees in the game - potential new intercounty referees are being hindered at club level

Intercounty referees actually lose money doing games - between the cost of travelling to the game and then feeding their umpires on the way home etc. A lot could be done to improve the rule book to help referees. I'll have a think and come back with a proper list!

daniels.ducks

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Intercounty referees actually lose money doing games - between the cost of travelling to the game and then feeding their umpires on the way home etc. A lot could be done to improve the rule book to help referees. I'll have a think and come back with a proper list!

In fairness referees travelling outside the county will usually get an allowance for himself, umpires and linesmen of up to €25 per person. That's to cover food. Then the ref would get a match fee.

rebel girl 15

daniels.ducks wrote: »

In fairness referees travelling outside the county will usually get an allowance for himself, umpires and linesmen of up to €25 per person. That's to cover food. Then the ref would get a match fee.

I've spoken to a few intercounty referees who were out of pocket at the end of the year, think that figure pp has gone up in recent years though

Umpires would be with the referee, linesmen are appointed by the same committee that would appoint the referee

daniels.ducks

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I've spoken to a few intercounty referees who were out of pocket at the end of the year, think that figure pp has gone up in recent years though

Umpires would be with the referee, linesmen are appointed by the same committee that would appoint the referee

I have experience of this, I am a referee. I've only ever done the line for one inter-county match. Cork and CIT in the McGrath cup final. All the linesmen and umpires went to the same place for grub on the way back. We were looked after very well.
Even for county finals in my own county the seven officials are given an allocation to spend on food afterwards as well as that the referee gets a match fee and fuel expenses for travelling outside his own division.

curry-muff

I know it might sound like the phrase is getting a bit overused at this stage, but refereeing a gaelic match is really one of the toughest sports to officiate.

As annoyed as I've gotten with referees myself, I do feel for the poor guys.

homerjay2005

curry-muff wrote: »

I know it might sound like the phrase is getting a bit overused at this stage, but refereeing a gaelic match is really one of the toughest sports to officiate.

As annoyed as I've gotten with referees myself, I do feel for the poor guys.

soccer and rugby have a very basic set of rules, but to ref in GAA you need to have a degree at this stage things are so complicated.

daniels.ducks

homerjay2005 wrote: »

soccer and rugby have a very basic set of rules, but to ref in GAA you need to have a degree at this stage things are so complicated.

And this causes GAA referees to have their own styles which leads to frustration amongst players

Padkir

homerjay2005 wrote: »

soccer and rugby have a very basic set of rules, but to ref in GAA you need to have a degree at this stage things are so complicated.

That might be true to an extent, to do with things like the tackle. But there are simple rules that Cathal (minor ref) got very wrong yesterday, i.e. foot block, over-hand hand pass, picking off the ground and a 2 handed push over the sideline as the Mayo man was about to kick.

General areas like men coming together and intense tackles like that, I give the ref a bit more credit as it's tough to make those decisions and as long as there's some decent level of consistency it's hard to complain too much.

But no ref at any level should be getting the decisions I mentioned above wrong!

Pegasusbridge

Padkir wrote: »

homerjay2005 wrote: »

soccer and rugby have a very basic set of rules, but to ref in GAA you need to have a degree at this stage things are so complicated.

That might be true to an extent, to do with things like the tackle. But there are simple rules that Cathal (minor ref) got very wrong yesterday, i.e. foot block, over-hand hand pass, picking off the ground and a 2 handed push over the sideline as the Mayo man was about to kick.

General areas like men coming together and intense tackles like that, I give the ref a bit more credit as it's tough to make those decisions and as long as there's some decent level of consistency it's hard to complain too much.

But no ref at any level should be getting the decisions I mentioned above wrong!

I don't think it's as simple as that. The rules state that blocking or attempting to block with the foot is a foul when an opposition player is kicking from the hand. The mayo player slid feet first at the player kicking. I know most people looking at the replay felt the defender was too far away from the attackers foot to call it a foot block but that is their interpretation of the rule. The ref only saw it once and I would argue that by the letter of the law he was correct.
Many refs don't view it like that and so we get differences between referees and fans get annoyed.

Padkir

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as that. The rules state that blocking or attempting to block with the foot is a foul when an opposition player is kicking from the hand. The mayo player slid feet first at the player kicking. I know most people looking at the replay felt the defender was too far away from the attackers foot to call it a foot block but that is their interpretation of the rule. The ref only saw it once and I would argue that by the letter of the law he was correct.
Many refs don't view it like that and so we get differences between referees and fans get annoyed.

But he wasn't diving AT the player kicking, he was diving across in the space between the man and the goal, with every limb outstretched. It was just unfortunate it hit his foot. If it was his knee it hit he'd have been called a hero.

And that doesn't explain the others, picking from the ground, blatantly incorrect hand-pass, push over the sideline...

gearoidc

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as that. The rules state that blocking or attempting to block with the foot is a foul when an opposition player is kicking from the hand. The mayo player slid feet first at the player kicking. I know most people looking at the replay felt the defender was too far away from the attackers foot to call it a foot block but that is their interpretation of the rule. The ref only saw it once and I would argue that by the letter of the law he was correct.
Many refs don't view it like that and so we get differences between referees and fans get annoyed.

Anyone with an ounce of cop-on knows what was intended with this rule. It is there to prevent the possibility of injury to the kicker and in this particular case simply did not apply.
The ref deserves a kick up the arse and certainly doesn't deserve people making excuses for him.

celt262

Padkir wrote: »

But he wasn't diving AT the player kicking, he was diving across in the space between the man and the goal, with every limb outstretched. It was just unfortunate it hit his foot. If it was his knee it hit he'd have been called a hero.

And that doesn't explain the others, picking from the ground, blatantly incorrect hand-pass, push over the sideline...

Did it even hit his foot, i just seen it once and though it hit him above the knee?

Pegasusbridge

Padkir wrote: »

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

But he wasn't diving AT the player kicking, he was diving across in the space between the man and the goal, with every limb outstretched. It was just unfortunate it hit his foot. If it was his knee it hit he'd have been called a hero.

And that doesn't explain the others, picking from the ground, blatantly incorrect hand-pass, push over the sideline...

But It didn't hit his knee. If he dived hand first he would have blocked it with no risk of a foul. I accept most people don't view it as a foot block but I think the rule isn't that precise and it's not a completely unreasonable decision. You are right of course that the ref got some decisions wrong but most of those are blatant with the aid of slow motion replays. The ref didn't have that advantage The ref was playing an advantage to Meath when the hand pass/pickup occurred and that might have influenced him. Of course it shouldn't but everyone makes mistakes.

Pegasusbridge

gearoidc wrote: »

Anyone with an ounce of cop-on knows what was intended with this rule. It is there to prevent the possibility of injury to the kicker and in this particular case simply did not apply.
The ref deserves a kick up the arse and certainly doesn't deserve people making excuses for him.

You might well be correct but I think some people were making the point that gaa rules are a bit imprecise and open to interpretation. I would agree with that point and I think that makes it more difficult for referees. The rule just states you can't attempt to block with the foot. I think more precise rules might help refs make less mistakes. I'd also like to see the use of video technology to help refs. Remember the incident happened very quickly and most people sitting beside me in the stand(mostly Donegal fans) felt it was a foot block. It was only when I saw it on the Sunday game that I realised that it was a contentious call.

daniels.ducks

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as that. The rules state that blocking or attempting to block with the foot is a foul when an opposition player is kicking from the hand. The mayo player slid feet first at the player kicking. I know most people looking at the replay felt the defender was too far away from the attackers foot to call it a foot block but that is their interpretation of the rule. The ref only saw it once and I would argue that by the letter of the law he was correct.
Many refs don't view it like that and so we get differences between referees and fans get annoyed.

My interpretation of that rule is when a defending player goes at the player with his foot. I'd nearly even go as far to say in most instances it is only an offence if a player shows studs.
What happens if there is a bit of a huddle and a player tries to kick the ball low through it and it comes off the back/side of a defending players boot. That is not a foul even though technically it is a foul as he stopped the ball from being played using his foot... i.e footblocked. This could even happen if a defeng player runs across a player kinking the ball low and it happens to come of the defending players boot.

blackbelt

DDC1990 wrote: »

I know referees like to let a team back in the game, but this was rediculous. .

As a an adult (junior) and minor level I have to take this up from my point of view.No referee is out to get a team despite what fans think (which is understandable) as the fans are the ones on the sideline supporting their team and everything that goes against their team is the wrong decision.That is bias playing up.There are poor referees out there though.

I think a referee is out to ref the game fairly and have a good game without criticism of any sort but he is not out to cost a team by getting them back into the game.I refereed a game where the final result was 4-17 to a point as the final result and I had no intention of being softer on the losing team.

I do however agree with a lot of your points regardin the minor referee on Sunday.That was never a footblock and the application of the footblock rule only comes into effect when an opposing player dangerously puts his foot in to prevent the player in possession from picking up,kicking the ball from his/her hands.

The Mayo player simply stretched his leg out

When the ball was in flight going toward the goal.So we have now had two decisions going in favour of Meath over Mayo in Croke Park.The previous time being a soft penalty going to Meath seniors when it was clearly a Mayo sideline in the run up to the "penalty" in 2009. Then you have the 1996 All Ireland Final and the schmozzle that put Mayos heads down.

Mayo must really hate Meath.

JFlah

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Most of the regular posters in here would know me as fairly unbiased, and knowledgeable about the rules but I thought Coldrick made some bad calls in the first half, especially with the pickups. I didn't see a foul in the last free he gave Donegal, but I could be biased in that one, thought it was a 50:50 challenge. In fairness, he was good overall, so can't fault him

There is big problems with both halves of the official guide, rugby in comparison is very black and white, whereas GAA has a lot of interpretation and grey areas left to the referees which ends up with a lot of disparities between games. Problem is that intercounty referees are very focused on the assessor that is rating them, and that can play into getting calls right and wrong on the day.

The abuse referees are getting at club games is actually stopping the growth of younger referees in the game - potential new intercounty referees are being hindered at club level

Intercounty referees actually lose money doing games - between the cost of travelling to the game and then feeding their umpires on the way home etc. A lot could be done to improve the rule book to help referees. I'll have a think and come back with a proper list!

Could,nt agree more I'm involved with u10 girls team and some of the abuse refs are getting even at that level in what are 100% non-competitive games is disgraceful. Knock on effect besides people being un-willing to ref is kids being taken from clubs to other sports by parents that find the behavior of the 'adults' un-acceptable.The same parents are also the ones that 'encourage' their kids by telling them everything they are doing wrong and NEVER praising what they do right!
Good one recently at a girls u10 blitz one parent was giving so much abuse and criticism to the ref that he handed her the whistle and says
"there you go see if you can do better" , not a word out of her for remainder of game

On another note re Coldrick I generally find him ok , despite his constant explanations to players but even as a Kerry man I though Cork got the shorter end of the stick on Sunday, an example that stood out for me was lateish in second half. Colm O Neill was blown up for a foul on a Donegal defender when quite obviously another Donegal defender who was on the ground fouled O neill as he rose and prevented him getting the ball, Donegal eventually scored from the play

Pegasusbridge

blackbelt wrote: »

As a an adult (junior) and minor level I have to take this up from my point of view.No referee is out to get a team despite what fans think (which is understandable) as the fans are the ones on the sideline supporting their team and everything that goes against their team is the wrong decision.That is bias playing up.There are poor referees out there though.

I think a referee is out to ref the game fairly and have a good game without criticism of any sort but he is not out to cost a team by getting them back into the game.I refereed a game where the final result was 4-17 to a point as the final result and I had no intention of being softer on the losing team.

I do however agree with a lot of your points regardin the minor referee on Sunday.That was never a footblock and the application of the footblock rule only comes into effect when an opposing player dangerously puts his foot in to prevent the player in possession from picking up,kicking the ball from his/her hands.

The Mayo player simply stretched his leg out

When the ball was in flight going toward the goal.So we have now had two decisions going in favour of Meath over Mayo in Croke Park.The previous time being a soft penalty going to Meath seniors when it was clearly a Mayo sideline in the run up to the "penalty" in 2009. Then you have the 1996 All Ireland Final and the schmozzle that put Mayos heads down.

Mayo must really hate Meath.

Does it state in the rules that the foot block rule only comes into play if the defender dangerously puts his foot towards the ball? I didn't think it did and so that is your interpretation but another ref might interpret it differently.
Also I'm sure far more then 2 decisions have gone against Mayo for Meath in Croke Park but plenty of decisions have gone for Mayo too. It's too simplistic to blame the ref.

K-9

JFlah wrote: »

On another note re Coldrick I generally find him ok , despite his constant explanations to players but even as a Kerry man I though Cork got the shorter end of the stick on Sunday, an example that stood out for me was lateish in second half. Colm O Neill was blown up for a foul on a Donegal defender when quite obviously another Donegal defender who was on the ground fouled O neill as he rose and prevented him getting the ball, Donegal eventually scored from the play

I think Donegal got a couple of soft frees but Cork seemed to get the benefit of the doubt on barging, Donegal got penalised a couple of times for that. Plus I think O'Neill might have helped McGee misread the ball a little for the goal! Overall he was good, tried to let the game flow which it did and not too over bearing. It was a pretty clean game.

JFlah

K-9 wrote: »

I think Donegal got a couple of soft frees but Cork seemed to get the benefit of the doubt on barging, Donegal got penalised a couple of times for that. Plus I think O'Neill might have helped McGee misread the ball a little for the goal! Overall he was good, tried to let the game flow which it did and not too over bearing. It was a pretty clean game.

Ah yeah I'm not criticizing him really was just a few I thought went Donegals way more than Cork got he had no real bearing on the result , hence good performance. Credit to the players too , they were easy to ref

J Cheever Loophole

I didn't see the minor match, but I've heard enough to suggest that Mayo were hard done by. I think in the modern era, with modern television coverage, the pressure on referees, through minute analysis of their every decision, has never been greater. It is a tough job.

That said, I was flicking channels last night and caught the last five minutes of the Offaly v Kerry match in 1982. Before my next comment, I should state that I vividly recall the moment THE goal went in back then, and jumping out of the seat, and being absolutely thrilled for Offaly. However, watching in the calmness of a quiet Wednesday night, some thirty years later, I would have to say that great Kerry team were on the receiving end of some very dubious calls in the little time I watched.

Now I am not talking about the push on Tommy Doyle, but rather the two frees that brought Offaly to within two points of Kerry. They were soft in the extreme. After Darby's goal went in, Kerry were able to mount one last attack. Tom Spillane went on a run that I thought was illegally blocked, close to goal. The ball ended up with Martin Furlong out in the Canal / Hogan Stand corner, where he lost the ball and proceeded to chase after it like a bull in a china shop, barging into Mike Sheehy who was attempting to gather, and Mike went to ground. Kerry received no free that would have seen the opportunity to rescue the 5-in-a-row dream.

In the interests of balance - has anyone ever seen recently the free given against Paddy Cullen in 1978 from which Mike Sheehy got the famous chipped goal?!? :eek: Even my own beloved Armagh - we got a penalty in the opening minutes of the 1977 All Ireland Final which was essentially a player falling over whiilst trying to change direction on a heavy surface.

All three incidents were in favour of the perceived underdog and hardly an eyelid was batted by anyone - the decisions were just accepted, and yet in two of the matches referred, the decisions had momentous consequences.

Referees are only human - and they are prone to mistakes like everyone else, and that includes being prone to being incompetent, and yes, that can have very harsh consequences on teams on the receiving end. There is therefore room for improvement, but I still think that the referees we have today are probably of the highest standard we have ever had.

blackbelt

Pegasusbridge wrote: »

Does it state in the rules that the foot block rule only comes into play if the defender dangerously puts his foot towards the ball? I didn't think it did and so that is your interpretation but another ref might interpret it differently.
Also I'm sure far more then 2 decisions have gone against Mayo for Meath in Croke Park but plenty of decisions have gone for Mayo too. It's too simplistic to blame the ref.

It states in the rulebook "To block an opponent from kicking from the hands with the boot". Ok they may not be the exact phrases or order of words but the ball was clearly in flight as a shot on goal and the Mayo defender posed no danger and did not block the Meath attacker with the boot from kicking from his hands.

Only referees who are too easily influenced by players who call on it may give it or use poor judgements.