Is there a middle class political party?

Daniel S

One that represents middle class families of teachers, doctors, engineers, technicians, IT specialists etc? Fine Gael/Labour just seem to keep demanding more money from the middle class as it's the easiest target. Would the PD's ideology have been as close as it could have been? I'm not just asking AH who I should vote for in the next general election, but if there is a party (even internationally that would suit Ireland) that would/does represent middle-class Ireland?






Can we take it easy with any "thinly veiled/blast them.../" or thanks whoring?

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, hold on my popcorn is nearly ready.

Daniel S

benwavner wrote: »

Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, hold on my popcorn is nearly ready.

Very witty of you.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Daniel S wrote: »

Very witty of you.

What? It's for the party!

You are around long enough to know there is a more appropriate forum to ask such a question. "Politics", "Irish Economy".

AH was a bad choice, like milk on a warm day in the film Anchorman. I am eagerly awaiting Anchorman 2.

wicklowwonder

Daniel S wrote: »

One that represents middle class families of teachers, doctors, engineers, technicians, IT specialists etc? Fine Gael/Labour just seem to keep demanding more money from the middle class as it's the easiest target. Would the PD's ideology have been as close as it could have been? I'm not just asking AH who I should vote for in the next general election, but if there is a party (even internationally that would suit Ireland) that would/does represent middle-class Ireland?






Can we take it easy with any "thinly veiled/blast them.../" or thanks whoring?

Opposition parties bar Sinn Fein. Last government Fine Gael stood up for the rights of the middle class, got in power and continued the same policies. This time Fianna Fail will start the same talking about standing up for middle class people.... Truthfully no because once a party get to power the middle class are the easy target and the majority of people do they will be squeezed in a recession.

smcgiff

Op, what policies should a middle class centric party pursue?

NinjaK

they are all middle class apart from sinn fein

mikemac1

No class in a Republic :cool:

nlgbbbblth

The Workers Party.
Democratic Left.

Bullseye1

Most if not all the parties in this country are tied to "social protection" of the "vulnerable" to the detrement of everyone else.

Gummy Panda

smcgiff wrote: »

Op, what policies should a middle class centric party pursue?

More star bucks and ugg boots for all?

smcgiff

Gummy Panda wrote: »

More star bucks and ugg boots for all?

Even for the mass unwashed, steady on there!

Daniel S

smcgiff wrote: »

Op, what policies should a middle class centric party pursue?

I'm not 100% certain, that's why I'm asking.

I suppose secular, low motor tax, privitisation of public transport/non-essential large expenses (ie not healthcare and education), liberal, higher corperation tax, no property tax, same VAT (or similar) and higher PAYE for a start.

Daniel S

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Most if not all the parties in this country are tied to "social protection" of the "vulnerable" to the detrement of everyone else.

As in travellers, homeless, pensioners and the disabled?

smcgiff

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Most if not all the parties in this country are tied to "social protection" of the "vulnerable" to the detrement of everyone else.

Unless you give specific policies you are against, it's just lazy ranting. If that's what you're going for, fine, just saying...

drunkmonkey

Swedish House Mafia are getting my number 1 this time round.

Annasopra

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Most if not all the parties in this country are tied to "social protection" of the "vulnerable" to the detrement of everyone else.

oh ok - so vulnerable people only exist in bubbles

jimthemental

Gummy Panda wrote: »

More star bucks and ugg boots for all?

And salad wraps and the like. Breakfast rolls are far too working class.

Pride Fighter

Daniel S wrote: »

I'm not 100% certain, that's why I'm asking.

I suppose secular, low tax, privitisation of public transport/non-essential large expenses (ie not healthcare and education), liberal, higher corperation tax, no property tax, same VAT (or similar) and higher PAYE for a start.

That's what you think, I dont think you can speak for the entire middle class.

Colmustard

FF (Gone forever I hope) FG even Labour are all centre left.

The PDs and the Greens were the only true middle class parties and both their records in government is piss poor.

I to would like a conservative type party here. But it ain't going to happen.

smcgiff

Daniel S wrote: »

I'm not 100% certain, that's why I'm asking.

I suppose secular, low tax, privitisation of public transport/non-essential large expenses (ie not healthcare and education), liberal, higher corperation tax, no property tax, same VAT (or similar) and higher PAYE for a start.

Higher paye and lower taxes?!?

If you have higher CT would a lot of middle class lose their jobs in fleeing multinationals?

If you lower taxes what expenditure would you cut?

Privatisation could mean higher taxes for the middle class - who uses the toll roads?

mikemac1

Say no to mugs a tay and hang sandwiches

Say yes to cappuccinos and paninis

Benny_Cake

Daniel S wrote: »

smcgiff wrote: »

Op, what policies should a middle class centric party pursue?

I'm not 100% certain, that's why I'm asking.

I suppose secular, low tax, privitisation of public transport/non-essential large expenses (ie not healthcare and education), liberal, higher corperation tax, no property tax, same VAT (or similar) and higher PAYE for a start.

What, the "middle class" don't use public transport? Or pay PAYE?

Quorum

Labour.

jimthemental

Daniel S wrote: »

I'm not 100% certain, that's why I'm asking.

I suppose secular, low tax, privitisation of public transport/non-essential large expenses (ie not healthcare and education), liberal, higher corperation tax, no property tax, same VAT (or similar) and higher PAYE for a start.

Feck off now with your higher corporation tax, it's the only thing we have going for us and I already pay too much PAYE.

steddyeddy

Daniel S wrote: »

One that represents middle class families of teachers, doctors, engineers, technicians, IT specialists etc? Fine Gael/Labour just seem to keep demanding more money from the middle class as it's the easiest target. Would the PD's ideology have been as close as it could have been? I'm not just asking AH who I should vote for in the next general election, but if there is a party (even internationally that would suit Ireland) that would/does represent middle-class Ireland?






Can we take it easy with any "thinly veiled/blast them.../" or thanks whoring?

Define middle class?

mikemac1

If you work you are working class

When I own a huge portfolio of shares and property and investments and don't have to work then I'll call myself something else

Bullseye1

smcgiff wrote: »

Unless you give specific policies you are against, it's just lazy ranting. If that's what you're going for, fine, just saying...

There is a certain amount of ranting I admit but i do believe that most if not all parties do not consider those still working are "vulnerable" and therefore try to squeeze even more out of them to protect who they consider vulnerable.

LETHAL LADY

There is no middle class in Ireland. The majority of people in this country like it or lump it are working class. Yes we may now know our claret from our beaujolais still doesnt make us middle class. A programme that I think represents how fooking deluded some folks are here that they are all that is The Restaurant. You have these fooking gob****es seated around tables criticising food when you know they were reared on spuds and cabbage water. I am proud to be from an honest working class background and I dont need some descendants of cattle rustlers in a suit to reaffirm my ideology.

Balmed Out

Colmustard wrote: »

FF (Gone forever I hope) FG even Labour are all centre left.

Ok FF and Labour are lefties but id think FG are centre centre right

smcgiff

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There is a certain amount of ranting I admit but i do believe that most if not all parties do not consider those still working are "vulnerable" and therefore try to squeeze even more out of them to protect who they consider vulnerable.

Who else are they going to squeeze it out of, or what cuts do you think need to be made?

steddyeddy

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

There is no middle class in Ireland. The majority of people in this country like it or lump it are working class. Yes we may now know our claret from our beaujolais still doesnt make us middle class. A programme that I think represents how fooking deluded some folks are here that they are all that is The Restaurant. You have these fooking gob****es seated around tables criticising food when you know they were reared on spuds and cabbage water. I am proud to be from an honest working class background and I dont need some descendants of cattle rustlers in a suit to reaffirm my ideology.

Indeed! I must be of the intelligent class who dont believe in scientific illiteracies like "class".

bnt

I would say that all political parties represent the middle class - or try to. That is where the bulk of the votes are. You don't get elected to power here by appealing only to a minority. That's the normal state of affairs (though it is changing).

They might not agree with your definition of "middle class", though. Engineers, Doctors, IT folks etc. are a minority, more of an intellectual class than a "middle class". They might not have all the money, but money is not a guarantee of class, as the stories in the tabloids illustrate daily. "Middle Class" is a statistical definition i.e. where the most people are, there's your middle class.

PS: if (as others have posted above) it seems as if there is no middle class any more, that's another issue. The distribution of wealth in Ireland is not concentrated in the middle as it used to be, and the same is true in other countries such as the UK and USA. In the USA in particular the "middle class" used to be the people who could make a decent life for themselves by hard work (even if they didn't go to university), have a house, car and a couple of kids, and retire in their 60s. Those days are gone. Young people have to take on massive student debt to get the education they need to find jobs at all - so they have less money left to afford those "middle class" things that have also become far more expensive and out of reach.

Where is the money going? In to the hands of "rentiers" who now control the resources people need. Yet "middle class" Americans still don't seem to realise how the dice are loaded against them now, so much so that this coming November they're going to choose between (a) an elitist college professor and populist speaker whose economic policy was dictated by Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street investment firms, who will reap the rewards after he leaves office, and (b) an elitist financier who made his billions through saddling businesses with massive debts in the name of "restructuring" and taking massive fees regardless of how well it worked - Gordon Gekko without the snarl, basically. Neither represents the "middle class": the bulk of the people might be "middle class", but nowadays the bulk of the money isn't, and it's money that gets you elected in the USA now, not votes alone. Is Ireland going to go the same way?

mikemac1

Sure everyone is an engineer these days

The title doesn't mean much

Bullseye1

smcgiff wrote: »

Who else are they going to squeeze it out of, or what cuts do you think need to be made?

There needs to be a better balance between necessary tax increases and reduction of our national bill which includes public sector pay and pensions and the social welfare bill. As a self employed person I have no safety net if work drys up and the rise in VAT to 23% has made getting work more difficult. The social contract is not equal.

smcgiff

mikemac1 wrote: »

If you work you are working class

When I own a huge portfolio of shares and property and investments and don't have to work then I'll call myself something else

I think that's being pedantic with the term.

I'm on a phone at the minute and this tapping away is killing me. Briefly...

Working class would mean those with elements of the following:-

Those that work in unskilled jobs, have lower remuneration, have lower education and their earnings would mostly only cover basics and little or no luxuries. It also covers, strangely enough, those that are unemployed for a long period of time and relying on SW.

middle class would be those with third level education etc...

mikemac1

Where do farmers fit in?

Are they middle class as they can own land and property and equipment and machinery?

Or working class as its a laboring job?

Thread is about politics and nobody knows more about lobbying and using the vote then farmers

So what class are they?

And nowadays you go to Gurteen or do courses with Teagasc
Learn to be a farmer in the classroom

smcgiff

mikemac1 wrote: »

Where do farmers fit in?

Are they middle class as they can own land and property and equipment and machinery?

Or working class as its a laboring job?

Thread is about politics and nobody knows more about lobbying and using the vote then farmers

So what class are they?

And nowadays you go to Gurteen or do courses with Teagasc
Learn to be a farmer in the classroom

Ah, farmers are interesting.

They cut across all the "classes" - they can be the poorest of the poor, comfortable or the very gentry themselves. There's even the gentleman farmer

Colmustard

Balmed Out wrote: »

Ok FF and Labour are lefties but id think FG are centre centre right

I wouldn't say so, I would say more the same as FF.

You have to understand a right party, the conservative use to be, the American Republican party still are.

I don't know why the right get stuck on the roundabout of "traditional family values" whatever the hell they are, but the individual responsibility, low taxation and less government interference is something I agree with.

At some stage in everyones life you get sick of generous rent allowance, single parents allowance and paying for Dicinta's communion dress. Especially now when my ends are not meeting and all I can do is hope I don't get taxed more, which I will and I have no chance of obtaining overtime or a second part-time job.

LETHAL LADY

smcgiff wrote: »

Ah, farmers are interesting.

They cut across all the "classes" - they can be the poorest of the poor, comfortable or the very gentry themselves. There's even the gentleman farmer

Farmers asset rich and cash poor apparently.

steddyeddy

smcgiff wrote: »

I think that's being pedantic with the term.

I'm on a phone at the minute and this tapping away is killing me. Briefly...

Working class would mean those with elements of the following:-

Those that work in unskilled jobs, have lower remuneration, have lower education and their earnings would mostly only cover basics and little or no luxuries. It also covers, strangely enough, those that are unemployed for a long period of time and relying on SW.

middle class would be those with third level education etc...

Its not a lot of posts that make me shut up but your's is one of them. Great description in fairness!

Annasopra

FG are not right wing?

That's the most hilarious thing I've ever read on the internet!

Daniel S

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That's what you think, I dont think you can speak for the entire middle class.

I know, that's just my own personal opinion.

smcgiff wrote: »

Higher paye and lower motor taxes?!?

If you have higher CT would a lot of middle class lose their jobs in fleeing multinationals?

If you lower taxes what expenditure would you cut?

Privatisation could mean higher taxes for the middle class - who uses the toll roads?

Whoops, mistake! Maybe not lower, but at least a reform of it as it's extortionate. Tax should be in the fuel.

Regarding CT, I know it gives us an advantage over the rest of Europe and I know Germany/France were putting pressure on use to change it at one stage (if not still). The low CT brought the multinationals to Ireland, but our educated workforce is what's keeping them. IMO we can only compete with expensive goods, not low cost mass production. How many other English speaking countries are there with a CT as low as ours? We can afford to raise it slightly. If not and the companies will go, leave it?

Don't let people claim from society/"the system" who have never contributed to it.

Save expenses by not spending stupidly. The new number plates are the first things that come to mind.

Privatisation would also mean more competition with toll roads. The old WestLink toll made a fortune.




Also, I don't agree with "There is no middle class in Ireland" and "whoever works is middle class". That's BS in my opinion.

Daniel S

mikemac1 wrote: »

Where do farmers fit in?

Are they middle class as they can own land and property and equipment and machinery?

Or working class as its a laboring job?

Thread is about politics and nobody knows more about lobbying and using the vote then farmers

So what class are they?

And nowadays you go to Gurteen or do courses with Teagasc
Learn to be a farmer in the classroom

Depends on how successful they are doesn't it? If they own a mahooooosive farm in Meath with good land and machinery I'd put them in a different class to those in boggy land with poor machinery in a small area. I suppose it all comes down to how much profit they're making.

Annasopra

Daniel S wrote: »

I know, that's just my own personal opinion.


Whoops, mistake! Maybe not lower, but at least a reform of it as it's extortionate. Tax should be in the fuel.

Regarding CT, I know it gives us an advantage over the rest of Europe and I know Germany/France were putting pressure on use to change it at one stage (if not still). The low CT brought the multinationals to Ireland, but our educated workforce is what's keeping them. IMO we can only compete with expensive goods, not low cost mass production. How many other English speaking countries are there with a CT as low as ours? We can afford to raise it slightly. If not and the companies will go, leave it?

I don't see why we shouldn't have graduated rates of CT instead of a flat rate. If your profits are over a certain amount then maybe CT should be 11%

Daniel S

mikemac1 wrote: »

Sure everyone is an engineer these days

The title doesn't mean much

That pisses me off to no end...

Surely we should have our profession protected like doctors. It's a bit odd as nutritionist is not legally protected, whereas the title of dietitian is. In time I hope to become chartered.

smcgiff

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't see why we shouldn't have graduated rates of CT instead of a flat rate. If your profits are over a certain amount then maybe CT should be 11%

Corporates are more mobile than individuals, and while taxing a more successful company more, it may mean they are the very ones more capable of transferring out of ireland.

Annasopra

Daniel S wrote: »

That pisses me off to no end...

Surely we should have our profession protected like doctors. It's a bit odd as nutritionist is not legally protected, whereas the title of dietitian is. In time I hope to become chartered.

Why should professions be protected?

Daniel S

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't see why we shouldn't have graduated rates of CT instead of a flat rate. If your profits are over a certain amount then maybe CT should be 11%

Then surely they'll just divide the business into two so they don't pay a higher amount? Or combine businesses so they get to pay a lower amount?

Daniel S

mango salsa wrote: »

Why should professions be protected?

Because it damages the profession. Engineers build, design, manufacture while solving problems. We don't go to college to fix your washing machine or install your boiler.

Although, most of us love doing that!

smcgiff

mango salsa wrote: »

Why should professions be protected?

Ah now, that's crazy talk... Or the very least a subject of a different thread.