"Need" an age card

TheJak01

Yesterday I was trying to buy some drink in Superquinn Blackrock, and as you'd expect for a person of my age, I was asked for ID. I presented my passport to be told that they do not accepted passports, and they are requires by law only to accept Garda age cards as proof of age.

Surely that's a load of rubbish? A passport is an official document that I can travel from country to country with. A Garda age card can be used to prove pretty much jack all anywhere in the world. I even tried to argue that, as I have a German passport, I am visiting (which is not the case, but a valid point none the less) and thus have no need to get a Garda age card as I do not live in the country.

Surely them not accepting a passport is borderline discrimination to anybody not living in the country? If this "law" was actually the case, then nobody visiting the country would be able to buy alcohol, because apparently they have no document by which to prove their age. Especially in a country where the is no national identity card, and you aren't required to have any specific form of identification, only accepting one type, one that is not an official document and only available to those residing in the country, is an absolutely ludicrous policy.

I plan on complaining, I do not have a Garda ID card, nor do I plan on getting one as there's a good chance of me studying abroad. Should I be required to buy a meaningless card to buy alcohol for the times I'm in the country when I have a universally recognised document that does the same thing? But sure, if they want to just forbid all foreigners from buying alcohol in their stores, then so be it. Funnily enough I went to the off license 20m down the road, and the passport was accepted no issues, as it should be. Superquinn have lost a customer, I'll say that much at least.

But yeah, I assume the "law" their quoting is utter crap, and their policy would be something they can't really implement as there is some basic discriminatory issues in there, or would I be incorrect?

jimmycrackcorm

You have no absolute right to be served in a shop so if they want to say you need a specific Id then that's their prerogative.

wmpdd3

As above its not discrimination, google it. Also google the 2010 act covering this. It may be bad service that there are no signs telling you what id you need, but thats it.

Del2005

TheJak01 wrote: »

Yesterday I was trying to buy some drink in Superquinn Blackrock, and as you'd expect for a person of my age, I was asked for ID. I presented my passport to be told that they do not accepted passports, and they are requires by law only to accept Garda age cards as proof of age.

Surely that's a load of rubbish? A passport is an official document that I can travel from country to country with. A Garda age card can be used to prove pretty much jack all anywhere in the world. I even tried to argue that, as I have a German passport, I am visiting (which is not the case, but a valid point none the less) and thus have no need to get a Garda age card as I do not live in the country.

Surely them not accepting a passport is borderline discrimination to anybody not living in the country? If this "law" was actually the case, then nobody visiting the country would be able to buy alcohol, because apparently they have no document by which to prove their age. Especially in a country where the is no national identity card, and you aren't required to have any specific form of identification, only accepting one type, one that is not an official document and only available to those residing in the country, is an absolutely ludicrous policy.

I plan on complaining, I do not have a Garda ID card, nor do I plan on getting one as there's a good chance of me studying abroad. Should I be required to buy a meaningless card to buy alcohol for the times I'm in the country when I have a universally recognised document that does the same thing? But sure, if they want to just forbid all foreigners from buying alcohol in their stores, then so be it. Funnily enough I went to the off license 20m down the road, and the passport was accepted no issues, as it should be. Superquinn have lost a customer, I'll say that much at least.

But yeah, I assume the "law" their quoting is utter crap, and their policy would be something they can't really implement as there is some basic discriminatory issues in there, or would I be incorrect?

The issue here is that the only valid form of ID to avoid a prosecution for selling to under age people is the Garda Age card, so shops to avoid any hassle have adapted the Age Card as the defecto ID. So while a passport, or drivers licence, is valid ID the shops can still be prosecuted if they sell to an under age person who presents one, while if they serve to an under age person who presents an Age Card they aren't prosecuted.

You need to contact the DPP and Gardaí to complain not Superquinn, or any of the other shops that only accept the Age Card.

P. Breathnach

Del2005 wrote: »

The issue here is that the only valid form of ID to avoid a prosecution for selling to under age people is the Garda Age card...

That surprises me. Can you give a citation please?

ResearchWill

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That surprises me. Can you give a citation please?

All the relevant law is contained in the following case http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Waxy

I believe there is a SC appeal which has not been heard yet.

Relevant section


Subsection 4 of s. 31 of the Act of 1988, as enacted provided as follows:-

“In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.”

This subsection was amended by s. 14(1)(b) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000, (No. 17/2000), by the substitution of the following provision:-

“In any proceedings for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person or, if the defendant is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to either of those subsections, to prove that an age card relating to the person to whom the intoxicating liquor was sold or delivered was produced by that person to that other person.”

Procrastastudy

Any idea why the legislation was worded in such a narrow manner? Was there a specific reason why they only wanted an age card to be used.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Any idea why the legislation was worded in such a narrow manner? Was there a specific reason why they only wanted an age card to be used.

Up until 2000 reasonable belief was a defense, that was removed as I assume it was abused. I am only assuming that as the age card was there and relatively easy and cheap unlike passport or driving license then it could be used as a valid defense. Also if not allowed as a defense publicans would not accept them.

Procrastastudy

ResearchWill wrote: »

Up until 2000 reasonable belief was a defense, that was removed as I assume it was abused. I am only assuming that as the age card was there and relatively easy and cheap unlike passport or driving license then it could be used as a valid defense. Also if not allowed as a defense publicans would not accept them.

But 'Age Document' would seem to be the sensible compromise. Art 15 looks less and less reasonable every day

Thanks RWill really interesting.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

But 'Age Document' would seem to be the sensible compromise. Art 15 looks less and less reasonable every day

Thanks RWill really interesting.

Maybe the law was changed to force uptake of the Age Card.

Procrastastudy

I realise my comments are dragging this OT but it's amazing to me as a first year law student that the most mundane of cases can end up looking at fundamental areas of law. It's only right that this ends up in the SC but it still amazes me.

Then again I suppose its not that uncommon given a bottle of ginger beer and a snail.

dudara

A shop can refuse to serve you, if they so wish. You have no grounds for complaint with the shop.

TheJak01

dudara wrote: »

A shop can refuse to serve you, if they so wish. You have no grounds for complaint with the shop.

Yes, entirely agreed. But what irks me a bit is that the policy just blatantly states "if you are not from this country you cannot purchase alcohol from this store". If it was a case of not believing I was 18 or that the ID I produced was fake/not mine, I'd say fair enough, but it's the fact that they refused to serve me for producing identification that will identify me for virtually any purpose, anywhere in the world. Fair enough, I'm not entitled to be served under any circumstances, whether they accept passports, think I'm not 18 or simply don't like the look of me, but it just seems fairly ridiculous that the only thing they can accept is a piece of card that would be laughed off even north of the border. It's a bit annoying to think I might be in the UK for 10 months next year and will be unable to buy drink in this country for not having a card I have no actual obligation to hold. I assume German ID cards are also off the cards too, despite the fact those also prove my age and identity. I just don't really see why the only form of identification accepted is one that is exclusive to Ireland, it's a policy you'd see nowhere else in the world.

Strange though, that the off licenses I have been using, the other supermarkets I have frequented and on occasion even the same branch of Superquinn have never had any issue with me producing my passport. Though, from what I've read here, maybe it's them I should be taking issue with, rather than superquinn in this instance.

Just as far as the act is concerned, I'm fairly interested as I'd at least like to know on what grounds they're refusing my custom (I'm sure they've some reason, misinterpretation or overly strict interpretation, for refusing me, rather than just not wanting to serve me, as that's never happened before at that shop or any other). At least then I can have a snigger if I see people are doing something wrong, even if it inconveniences me in the process. Any chance you could give me a link, wmpdd3, or at least give me the name of the act and I'll have a sit down and read/scan through it.

Rynox45

This really does seem stupid. If a passport can be used to travel between countries or take out a loan but can't be used to buy alcohol, it implies that smuggling or fraud are lesser concerns than under-aged drinking.

Procrastastudy

TheJak01 wrote: »

Yes, entirely agreed. But what irks me a bit is that the policy just blatantly states "if you are not from this country you cannot purchase alcohol from this store". If it was a case of not believing I was 18 or that the ID I produced was fake/not mine, I'd say fair enough, but it's the fact that they refused to serve me for producing identification that will identify me for virtually any purpose, anywhere in the world. Fair enough, I'm not entitled to be served under any circumstances, whether they accept passports, think I'm not 18 or simply don't like the look of me, but it just seems fairly ridiculous that the only thing they can accept is a piece of card that would be laughed off even north of the border. It's a bit annoying to think I might be in the UK for 10 months next year and will be unable to buy drink in this country for not having a card I have no actual obligation to hold. I assume German ID cards are also off the cards too, despite the fact those also prove my age and identity. I just don't really see why the only form of identification accepted is one that is exclusive to Ireland, it's a policy you'd see nowhere else in the world.

Strange though, that the off licenses I have been using, the other supermarkets I have frequented and on occasion even the same branch of Superquinn have never had any issue with me producing my passport. Though, from what I've read here, maybe it's them I should be taking issue with, rather than superquinn in this instance.

Just as far as the act is concerned, I'm fairly interested as I'd at least like to know on what grounds they're refusing my custom (I'm sure they've some reason, misinterpretation or overly strict interpretation, for refusing me, rather than just not wanting to serve me, as that's never happened before at that shop or any other). At least then I can have a snigger if I see people are doing something wrong, even if it inconveniences me in the process. Any chance you could give me a link, wmpdd3, or at least give me the name of the act and I'll have a sit down and read/scan through it.

Err the case was linked which clearly explains the situation and gives the act and the amendment which is causing you an issue. It even has a brief discussion of legislative interpretation.

This can all be traced back to the amending SI - the only person who you should really be angry at is the minister concerned. Everyone else has acted properly.

TheJak01

1988 act =/= 2010 act, unless I'm missing something on that one? Apparently there's a 2010 act, which I have not seen names anywhere in this thread. If they're the same, then grand, I've have a more in depth glance at the other one here.

And surely, somebody down the line of events, of one place refusing a passport on legal grounds and another accepting it has done something wrong, even if it's the other way round as I perhaps expected going into this? Or is accepting a passport in this case perfectly allowed, with the shop simply accepting the risk that if it turns out I am in fact underage they are liable. I've understood that they have grounds not to serve me, even if I consider it a ridiculously stupid rule for reasons I've outlined above, but I'd just like to find out if a passport entirely is not on, and thus those shops that have been accepting it have not been acting properly, or whether them accepting a passport is fine, even if it perhaps comes with a few risks for them in the long run (which is the conclusion I have reached at this stage). Just want to put the thread to bed and clarify the last few things that I'm confused about.

Procrastastudy

It's pretty clear from the case but to be fair I've had some (very small) experience of reading cases - I would suggest that if reading the case has proved difficult reading an Act may result in a pounding headache. Also, I'm unfamiliar with the German civil system - but laws in Ireland can be modified by statutory instrument (SI) - it's an SI that's at issue not an Act per se.

ResearchWill has highlighted the relevant sections for you. As you'll see the SI amends the defence to one of the age card alone.

The shop could 'take the risk' by looking at your passport and relying on that but they obviously have a conservative solicitor working for them.

EDIT: Oh sorry I see you are now referring to a 2010 Act - what is the act in relation too? You might be able to look it up here.

Only one I can find is No. 9/2010 — Intoxicating Liquor (National Conference Centre) Act 2010
Looking at the SIs The commencement order for the 2008 act is in there but doesn't effect section 31.

Jesus that headache is coming on!

ResearchWill

TheJak01 wrote: »

1988 act =/= 2010 act, unless I'm missing something on that one? Apparently there's a 2010 act, which I have not seen names anywhere in this thread. If they're the same, then grand, I've have a more in depth glance at the other one here.

And surely, somebody down the line of events, of one place refusing a passport on legal grounds and another accepting it has done something wrong, even if it's the other way round as I perhaps expected going into this? Or is accepting a passport in this case perfectly allowed, with the shop simply accepting the risk that if it turns out I am in fact underage they are liable. I've understood that they have grounds not to serve me, even if I consider it a ridiculously stupid rule for reasons I've outlined above, but I'd just like to find out if a passport entirely is not on, and thus those shops that have been accepting it have not been acting properly, or whether them accepting a passport is fine, even if it perhaps comes with a few risks for them in the long run (which is the conclusion I have reached at this stage). Just want to put the thread to bed and clarify the last few things that I'm confused about.

There is nothing illegal about a shop accepting any I'd they wish. The issue arises if it turns out that the person served the drink are in fact underage (in other words they have used a fake ID) the relevant section of the legislation allows only one defense to the act of serving drink to a person under 18 that defense is the person offered an Age Card as proof of ID.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

It's pretty clear from the case but to be fair I've had some (very small) experience of reading cases - I would suggest that if reading the case has proved difficult reading an Act may result in a pounding headache. Also, I'm unfamiliar with the German civil system - but laws in Ireland can be modified by statutory instrument (SI) - it's an SI that's at issue not an Act per se.

ResearchWill has highlighted the relevant sections for you. As you'll see the SI amends the defence to one of the age card alone.

The shop could 'take the risk' by looking at your passport and relying on that but they obviously have a conservative solicitor working for them.

It was the intoxicating liquor act 2000 which amended the 1988 Act not an SI. The SI was the SI that created the Age Card scheme but did not effect the defense issue that was done by the 2000 Act.

TheJak01

Ah, so I had understood that part correctly. Cheers for clearing that up. Perhaps the anger was unjustified, even if I'll remain forever confused that I've used my passport there numerous times before without any issue. But I'll put that down to shoddy people working the register and let it be. Might try my luck in the future, simply to have a laugh if they ever decide it's fair enough for them to accept a passport. Though, all that said, I may still go on the odd in store rant to try get my way if this happens to me again

Procrastastudy

TheJak01 wrote: »

Ah, so I had understood that part correctly. Cheers for clearing that up. Perhaps the anger was unjustified, even if I'll remain forever confused that I've used my passport there numerous times before without any issue.

It's not an offence for them to do this but they may have well not bothered as it's not a defence either. (E.g. its not due diligence)

TheJak01 wrote: »

But I'll put that down to shoddy people working the register and let it be. Might try my luck in the future, simply to have a laugh if they ever decide it's fair enough for them to accept a passport. Though, all that said, I may still go on the odd in store rant to try get my way if this happens to me again

Ranting at someone doing their job is bullying and will make you few friends here. If you're referring to the off licenses that accept your passport as being shoddy then thats not strictly accurate. SuperQuinn on the other hand are simply being cautious.

TheJak01

Don't worry, "rant" was lighthearted, but a simple "I'm here to visit and thus don't have an age card" or similar to try convince them to turn a blind eye isn't out of the question. Sure, all they can say is "we're sticking by our policy, we can't serve you without an age card", and fair enough if they do so. Nothing wrong with trying to give a reason as to why they should change their mind, and nor will I be convinced otherwise.

yer man!

Well that's ridiculous, I worked in Dunnes and we stopped taking driver's licence's as they were flimsy and easily forget so we were asked to only accept passports or age cards. The passport was really the preferred option as it is the best ID any Irish citizen can have to prove who they are and how old they are. It also allowed foreign people to buy alcohol, it was a city centre dunnes so there were a lot of tourists. If a person had a fake passport to identify themselves as being 18 or over then that is a much more serious offence than underage drinking. I was in Tesco before and the person on the till would only accept an age card off one of my friend's, he called over the manager and the manager carried out the transaction. It's silly for superquinn to do this, they aren't doing that well as it is.....

Procrastastudy

TheJak01 wrote: »

Don't worry, "rant" was lighthearted, but a simple "I'm here to visit and thus don't have an age card" or similar to try convince them to turn a blind eye isn't out of the question. Sure, all they can say is "we're sticking by our policy, we can't serve you without an age card", and fair enough if they do so. Nothing wrong with trying to give a reason as to why they should change their mind, and nor will I be convinced otherwise.

The reason why is the law - you might think the law is stupid - but thats hardly SuperQuinn's fault or indeed the checkout worker. Vote with you feet and buy somewhere else if you don't like a store's policy.

yer man! wrote: »

Well that's ridiculous, I worked in Dunnes and we stopped taking driver's licence's as they were flimsy and easily forget so we were asked to only accept passports or age cards. The passport was really the preferred option as it is the best ID any Irish citizen can have to prove who they are and how old they are. It also allowed foreign people to buy alcohol, it was a city centre dunnes so there were a lot of tourists. If a person had a fake passport to identify themselves as being 18 or over then that is a much more serious offence than underage drinking. I was in Tesco before and the person on the till would only accept an age card off one of my friend's, he called over the manager and the manager carried out the transaction. It's silly for superquinn to do this, they aren't doing that well as it is.....

It might be the preferred option of the company but isn't a defence.

noodler

The DoFA don't really want to be encouraging people to carry passports around with them either in fairness.

Although in the OP's case - he didn't seem to have any choice.

yer man!

Even in Tesco they think my age card is fake half the time despite it being in mint condition and the photo being perfectly adequate, you'd swear I was buying a gun.

Del2005

noodler wrote: »

The DoFA don't really want to be encouraging people to carry passports around with them either in fairness.

Although in the OP's case - he didn't seem to have any choice.

What has the DoFA got to do with the production of valid proof of age? They issue documents, which you need to carry as ID in most countries you visit, but won't let us use them at home

And as it the OP's, and I'm sure many tourists have had similar issues, they are refusing to accept an ID which is the most recognised ID system in the world.

Just shows how disjointed our government is when they want to increase tourism, selling the Irish craic in the pub, and then making it a law that you can only purchase alcohol with Irish issued ID if your lucky enough to luck young so no foreigners need come

noodler

Del2005 wrote: »

What has the DoFA got to do with the production of valid proof of age? They issue documents, which you need to carry as ID in most countries you visit, but won't let us use them at home

Is that what you think? Well, try losing your passport and see what happens.



In Ireland, it remains the property of the DoFA and is not intended as a proof of age document.

Del2005

noodler wrote: »

Is that what you think? Well, try losing your passport and see what happens.



In Ireland, it remains the property of the DoFA and is not intended as a proof of age document.

So why do you require it to get an Age Card if it's not a proof of age? Which is in affect all that a passport is, it's a document issued by our Government to prove who we are when we travel. Who we are includes are age, so it is a proof or age document.

Procrastastudy

Del2005 wrote: »

So why do you require it to get an Age Card if it's not a proof of age? Which is in affect all that a passport is, it's a document issued by our Government to prove who we are when we travel. Who we are includes are age, so it is a proof or age document.

As has already been implied in this thread - the loss of passports by drunken teenagers is probably one of the reasons why the legislation specifies an age card.

Del2005

Procrastastudy wrote: »

As has already been implied in this thread - the loss of passports by drunken teenagers is probably one of the reasons why the legislation specifies an age card.

But an age card only works here and passports are lost all over the world, by drunken teenagers/non drunken teenagers and sober/drunk adults . If they didn't want Irish people using their passports as ID, which is impossible as it's the only internationally recognised ID we have, they should have legislated for it, not make it impossible for non nationals to use their passports to purchase goods in this country.

Also it makes it impossible for a non national, and technically me if I was ever asked for ID:(, to consume alcohol in this country if they only accept an ID that only locals can get.