What makes me wrong!!!

oldat31

A few days ago I had what I think was one of the weirdest conversations I have ever had, I got talking to a guy who is a very strong believer in the RC religion and have talked to him before but because I dont have a belief in any religion or any sort of spirituality I have never talked about religion.

I believe its not my place to question what another thinks or believes so I always steer clear of the topics. But today this guy kicked off questioning me and how I raise my children..

Because I dont teach my children the word of god I am condeming them?.... I believe once they reach the age of making up their own mind they can do as they will. I dont teach them that god is wrong or right, I will let them learn from their own life.

This guy has kids and TBH I could have argued the same thing to him about his kids, but I did'nt because its not my place to question another.

The other part of the issue with it is he believes everyone has a right to believe what they like but because I am not a believer he puts himself above me as a human.... To him I am not worth the time because I will never be turned to god.

Now the reason I posted here is because I have never come across this mindset before and when I look at my circle I actully dont have any believer friends, but I am not sure if its because I am a non-believer or because I just dont have any RC practising friends......

So heres the questions....:

1) Am I over thinking things?
2) Why am I a lower life form for not believing or is that just a small minded person that is a believer???

Onesimus

His behaviour is not Christian. Christians only ever invite or propose people live the Gospel but never impose upon anyone.

enough said really.

lmaopml

oldat31 wrote: »

A few days ago I had what I think was one of the weirdest conversations I have ever had, I got talking to a guy who is a very strong believer in the RC religion and have talked to him before but because I dont have a belief in any religion or any sort of spirituality I have never talked about religion.

I believe its not my place to question what another thinks or believes so I always steer clear of the topics. But today this guy kicked off questioning me and how I raise my children..

Because I dont teach my children the word of god I am condeming them?.... I believe once they reach the age of making up their own mind they can do as they will. I dont teach them that god is wrong or right, I will let them learn from their own life.

This guy has kids and TBH I could have argued the same thing to him about his kids, but I did'nt because its not my place to question another.

The other part of the issue with it is he believes everyone has a right to believe what they like but because I am not a believer he puts himself above me as a human.... To him I am not worth the time because I will never be turned to god.

Now the reason I posted here is because I have never come across this mindset before and when I look at my circle I actully dont have any believer friends, but I am not sure if its because I am a non-believer or because I just dont have any RC practising friends......

So heres the questions....:

1) Am I over thinking things?
2) Why am I a lower life form for not believing or is that just a small minded person that is a believer???

Well I think you can over think things that are not worth while and under think things that are worthwhile -

Look, nobody is 'perfect' - just like you will come across people that you feel are abrasive about so many things other than actual 'faith' - You yourself are responsible for doing your best and being honest about it.

You are not a 'lower' person, you are exactly the same as everybody else - no better, no worse.

bonniebede

oldat31 wrote: »

A few days ago I had what I think was one of the weirdest conversations I have ever had, I got talking to a guy who is a very strong believer in the RC religion and have talked to him before but because I dont have a belief in any religion or any sort of spirituality I have never talked about religion.

I believe its not my place to question what another thinks or believes so I always steer clear of the topics. But today this guy kicked off questioning me and how I raise my children..

Because I dont teach my children the word of god I am condeming them?.... I believe once they reach the age of making up their own mind they can do as they will. I dont teach them that god is wrong or right, I will let them learn from their own life.

This guy has kids and TBH I could have argued the same thing to him about his kids, but I did'nt because its not my place to question another.

The other part of the issue with it is he believes everyone has a right to believe what they like but because I am not a believer he puts himself above me as a human.... To him I am not worth the time because I will never be turned to god.

Now the reason I posted here is because I have never come across this mindset before and when I look at my circle I actully dont have any believer friends, but I am not sure if its because I am a non-believer or because I just dont have any RC practising friends......

So heres the questions....:

1) Am I over thinking things?
2) Why am I a lower life form for not believing or is that just a small minded person that is a believer???

Sorry you had a conversation which seems to have gone so wrong. one of the things i like about Jesus is in the gospels it is clear he spends a lot of time talking things through with people. I've been both an atheist and am now a catholic, and i've never felt god could be offended by my asking questions or trying to figure things out, after all thats what he gave me a brain for. In fact just the opposite, I am often startled out of my complacency by the new light on things that i get from somethiong in the bible, makes me re examine my thinking time and again.

In terms of thinking too much or too little, i think you can easily judge that based on the intrinsic importance of the question under examination. For example, look at all the time spent discussing fashions, I don't get that, its just not important enough to spend huge amounts of time thinking about the colour of the latest lipstick when next year you will be informed that that is so unflattering and now you have to try this. :rolleyes:

on the other hand, the question of whether of not you have an immortal soul is certainly worth somne thought, and the wuestion of what happens to you after you die, especially if anything you do during this life can have an effect on what comes next certainly bears csome consideration.

I'd look at it this way. there are things in my life now both good and bad which are consequences of things i did years ago, sometimes they were things i did without much thought for the long term consequences. Now that I am mature enough (nicer phrase than old enough) to be able to see the follow through of choosing a course of action, i am more careful about weighing things up.
So, whatever answer you give to the question of life after death, your answer is bound to have consequences for the actions you choose now, so its worth some consideration.

bnt

Onesimus wrote: »

His behaviour is not Christian. Christians only ever invite or propose people live the Gospel but never impose upon anyone.

enough said really.

Well, that particular Christian obviously disagrees, and would object to your opinion that he's not a Christian. He's not alone either. Invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy isn't going to make the OP's concerns go away.

Captain Commie

As a person that professes Christ as my Lord and Saviour I am sickened by the attitudes portrayed by the person you were having the conversation with.

The biggest point of scripture that I keep thinking of when reading this is that we were all given free will. God wants us to make our own decisions, and obviously He wants us to chose to live for Him. However, I believe that it is not our place to berate others over their faith. If I did have that belief (which clearly this guy does) then I would have been run out of my current country of residence about 5 mins after I landed.

As a son of the Living God, I believe that we are to evangelise the message of the scriptures, but not in a way that makes people feel like how the OP has been made to feel. Christ's ministry was one of love and compassion towards all, and that is how we are called to live our lives.

Onesimus

bnt wrote: »

Well, that particular Christian obviously disagrees, and would object to your opinion that he's not a Christian. He's not alone either. Invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy isn't going to make the OP's concerns go away.

I never said he was not Christian. But that his behaviour is not Christian.

J C

Onesimus wrote: »

His behaviour is not Christian. Christians only ever invite or propose people live the Gospel but never impose upon anyone.

enough said really.

... where did the guy impose anything on oldat31?

He asked him a few probing personal questions ... and that was about it.

... and this idea (amongst some Atheists) that they will not allow their children to be taught anything about God ... and they will let their children make their own minds up ... when they reach 18 years old ...
... would be like a Christian saying that they will not allow their children to go to school ... and they will allow their children make their own minds up ... about Science, English, French, Geography, etc. ... when they reach 18 years old !!!!:eek::)

dharma200

J C wrote: »

... where did the guy impose anything on oldat31?

He asked him a few probing personal questions ... and that was about it.

... and this idea (amongst Atheists) that they will not allow their children to be taught anything about God ... and they will let their children make their own minds up ... when they reach 18 years old ...
... would be like a Christian saying that they will not allow their children to go to school ... and they will allow their children make their own minds up ... about Science, English, French, Geography, etc. ... when they reach 18 years old !!!!:eek::)

That really is a very very strange analogy.
What has english french geography got to do with religion.
I think many Atheists would be more than happy for their children to be taught about the many many gods/godesses dieties etc that may or may not have existed in the history of mankind. being taught about one god, however, kind of gives a slant on religion in schools that might seem a bit shortsighted and indoctrination -like.

I cant possibly think why a Christian would stop their child being taught languages or geography, or anything that is not belief based. English and French and Geography are certainly not as open to interpretation as the teaching of religion, by religious people, in religious schools, to non religious students???

J C

Captain Commie wrote: »

As a person that professes Christ as my Lord and Saviour I am sickened by the attitudes portrayed by the person you were having the conversation with.
...
As a son of the Living God, I believe that we are to evangelise the message of the scriptures, but not in a way that makes people feel like how the OP has been made to feel. Christ's ministry was one of love and compassion towards all, and that is how we are called to live our lives.

Saying anything about Jesus Christ will often make an un-Saved person 'uncomfortable' ... but c'est la vie.:)

... I felt 'uncomfortable' once when challenged by a Christian ... but when I thought about it ... he was totally right ... and that was one of the factors that led to my Salvation!!!

J C

dharma200 wrote: »

That really is a very very strange analogy.
What has english french geography got to do with religion.

My point is that knowledge ... is required before somebody can make their minds up about anything ... including God.

dharma200 wrote: »

I think many Atheists would be more than happy for their children to be taught about the many many gods/godesses dieties etc that may or may not have existed in the history of mankind. being taught about one god, however, kind of gives a slant on religion in schools that might seem a bit shortsighted and indoctrination -like.

I have no problem with a broad liberal education for children, including information on other religions, including Atheism, once the case for Jesus Christ is fairly and comprehensively presented. If Atheists and other religious people share my liberalism, that's great.

dharma200 wrote: »

I cant possibly think why a Christian would stop their child being taught languages or geography, or anything that is not belief based. English and French and Geography are certainly not as open to interpretation as the teaching of religion, by religious people, in religious schools, to non religious students???

The point I was making is that, without knowledge ... nobody can make their minds up about any topic.
It is just as ridiculous to keep children in ignorance of God ... and then claim that you will allow them to make their minds up about Him when they become adults ... as it would be to keep children in ignorance of Science, for example, and then claim that you will allow them to make their minds up about it when they reach adulthood!!!

joseph brand

J C wrote: »

My point is that knowledge ... is required before somebody can make their minds up about anything ... including God.

I have no problem with a broad liberal education for children, once the case for Jesus Christ is fairly and comprehensively presented. If Atheists share my liberalism, that's great.


The point I was making is that, without knowledge ... nobody can make their minds up about any topic.
It is just as ridiculous to keep children in ignorance of God ... and then claim that you will allow them to make their minds up about Him when they become adults ... as it would be to keep children in ignorance of Science and then claim that you will allow them to make their minds up about it when they reach adulthood!!!

Which god are you thinking of? It's okay to teach children the many different gods and religions. The problem is indoctrination in a particular one, (dependent on geography*), from a very young age.

*In Ireland, Spain, Italy, Brazil it's jesus, in Saudi Arabia it's allah and in India there's 33 gods. The list of gods worldwide is huge and would take up a lot of time better spent on English, Science and Maths.

Personally I'd like to see Gaeilge and Religion replaced with subjects more beneficial in terms of employment. An educated workforce is vital.

J C

joseph brand wrote: »

Which god are you thinking of? It's okay to teach children the many different gods and religions. The problem is indoctrination in a particular one, (dependent on geography*), from a very young age.

I have said that I have no problem with a broad liberal education for children, including information on other religions, including Atheism, once the case for Jesus Christ is fairly and comprehensively presented. Do you share my liberalism on this issue?

joseph brand wrote: »

*In Ireland, Spain, Italy, Brazil it's jesus, in Saudi Arabia it's allah and in India there's 33 gods.

... and now it is proposed to only teach that there is No God.
Going from one extreme to another isn't what I would call progress!!!

joseph brand wrote: »

The list of gods worldwide is huge and would take up a lot of time better spent on English, Science and Maths.

There is One God, Jesus Christ ... that is held to be God by over 80% of Irish People ... I have no problem with my children learning about other religions ... but I agree that it will be impossible to cover every religion that has ever existed.
You present a false dichotomy in claiming that if children learn about God that this necessarily compromises their ability to learn about English, Science, Maths, etc.
Nobody is suggesting (nor is it happening) that religious education should be any more than a few classes per week ... which has no practical effect on the teaching of other subjects.

joseph brand wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see Gaeilge and Religion replaced with subjects more beneficial in terms of employment. An educated workforce is vital.

Languages, Music, Art, etc may not make somebody a better engineer ... but there is more to life that employment ... who wants to be an educated technocrat who is a cultural and philosophical ignoramus?!!!:eek:
Indeed, the employability of such a 'nerd' would be in serious doubt ... if they were competing for a job with somebody who had the qualification for the job ... and also had a broad liberal education and was a 'rounded and grounded' person, as a result.

oldat31

J C wrote: »

... where did the guy impose anything on oldat31?

By saying that I am wrong for not believing and he is right?

J C wrote: »

He asked him a few probing personal questions ... and that was about it.

Nop he tryed to force his opinion on me and got aggressive when I would'nt agree with him.

J C wrote: »

... and this idea (amongst some Atheists) that they will not allow their children to be taught anything about God ... and they will let their children make their own minds up ... when they reach 18 years old ...
... would be like a Christian saying that they will not allow their children to go to school ... and they will allow their children make their own minds up ... about Science, English, French, Geography, etc. ... when they reach 18 years old !!!!:eek::)

For start, I never said I stop my children for learning about anything, it is part of their education so they learn what their school teaches them.

Also, my eldist is 11 and believes that J.C is God... So the schools aint doing a very good job of it.

Now heres a question: Would you allow your children to go to a non christian school?

oldat31

J C wrote: »

Saying anything about Jesus Christ will often make an un-Saved person 'uncomfortable' ... but c'est la vie.:)

UN-Saved? Who are you to brand a person, who are you to judge anyone as an ( un-saved ) person.........

The one thing about the ( saved ) is they are very quick to judge a person on what they believe, but yet the ( un-saved ) dont really care what you believe........ :eek:

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

By saying that I am wrong for not believing and he is right?

... happens all the time on the Boards.ie:)
... so are you going to never post again for fear that somebody will tell you that you are wrong???

oldat31 wrote: »

Nop he tryed to force his opinion on me and got aggressive when I would'nt agree with him.

... happens all the time on the Boards.ie:)

oldat31 wrote: »

For start, I never said I stop my children for learning about anything, it is part of their education so they learn what their school teaches them.

Also, my eldist is 11 and believes that J.C is God... So the schools aint doing a very good job of it.

That's probably the work of the Holy Spirit!!!

oldat31 wrote: »

Now heres a question: Would you allow your children to go to a non christian school?

Yes ... in fact I attended one myself ... and found its religion classes both thought-provoking and orthodox (when it came to teaching about the Christian Faith).

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

UN-Saved? Who are you to brand a person, who are you to judge anyone as an ( un-saved ) person.........

:

I wasn't judging anybody ... merely pointing out that the un-Saved can be 'uncomfortable' when a Christian witnesses to their faith in Jesus Christ in their presence.
It's a fact.

oldat31 wrote: »

The one thing about the ( saved ) is they are very quick to judge a person on what they believe, but yet the ( un-saved ) dont really care what you believe........ :eek

Try telling an Atheist of your acquaintance that you believe that Creation Science should be taught in school ... and watch them 'shrug their shoulders' ... and tell you that they don't really care what you believe ... and that they welcome such diversity of belief with open arms.:rolleyes:
I'm currently patiently waiting for Ken Ham's invitation to speak at the next Skeptics Meeting!!!:eek::)
... must have got lost in the post!!!:)

Sin City

To be honest , even though I am an atheist I am still going to tell my kids about God. I mean I wouldnt tell them Santa isnt real either till they are old enough to understand. Leave them enjoy the magic with their friends till they are old enough to decide themselves

J C

Sin City wrote: »

To be honest , even though I am an atheist I am still going to tell my kids about God.

What exactly are you going to tell them?
... and do you have any problem with the case for Jesus Christ being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school?

Sin City wrote: »

I mean I wouldnt tell them Santa isnt real either till they are old enough to understand. Leave them enjoy the magic with their friends till they are old enough to decide themselves

I can empathise ... I often feel the same about Spontaneous Evolution!!!:eek::)

Sin City

J C wrote: »

What exactly are you going to tell them?
... and do you have any problem with the case for Jesus Christ being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school?

None at all, sure at that age its all fairy tales and ann and barry books

J C wrote: »

I can empathise ... I often feel the same about Spontaneous Evolution!!!:eek::)

Hey Im not going to argue

Plenty of people still believe in UFO abductions

Its up to you decide what you believe

Your a big boy and able to make big boy decsions

oldat31

J C wrote: »

I can empathise ... I often feel the same about Spontaneous Evolution!!!:eek::)

AHHH now I get you, I was starting to think you were some sort of nut!...

You are a true believer, Adam and Eve and all that. No such thing as evolution because then God didn't create us, we grew from a goo...

All of the answers you gave to my reply's were utter crap, take this answer:

J C wrote: »

Yes ... in fact I attended one myself ... and found its religion classes both thought-provoking and orthodox (when it came to teaching about the Christian Faith).

I anked would you send your kids to a non-christian school? ( an Atheist school) where religion has no place?

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by Sin City
To be honest , even though I am an atheist I am still going to tell my kids about God.

Posted by J C
What exactly are you going to tell them?
... and do you have any problem with the case for Jesus Christ being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school?

Sin City
None at all, sure at that age its all fairy tales and ann and barry books

They are also capable of studying Maths, English, Science ... and information about God.:)

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

AHHH now I get you, I was starting to think you were some sort of nut!...

You are a true believer, Adam and Eve and all that. No such thing as evolution because then God didn't create us, we grew from a goo...

All of the answers you gave to my reply's were utter crap, take this answer:

Your unfounded insults don't make up for your inability to counter my arguments.:)

oldat31 wrote: »

I asked would you send your kids to a non-christian school? ( an Atheist school) where religion has no place?

A non-christian school isn't an Atheist School ... an Atheist School is an Atheist School.
I didn't attend an Atheist School ... like I said, I attended a non-christian school that had a liberal religious programme ... including full coverage of the Atheistic Humanism Religion.
BTW why do you believe that the tenets of Atheism should be the only religion be allowed in Atheist schools?
... sounds highly intolerant to me!!!:(
You are in danger of becoming a parody of your own prejudices!!!:eek:

Your statement that religion has no place in an Atheist School is logically saying that religious children also have no place there as well.

It is also a fallacy, as the tenets of Atheism will inevitably pervade all aspects of an Atheist School ... so what you are actually saying is that the only religion allowed in Atheist Schools is the Religion of Atheistic Humanism.

J C

J C wrote: »

[...] and do you have any problem with the case for Jesus Christ being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school?

Do you have any problem with the case for Muhammad, as the prophet of Allah, being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school? Presented on an equal footing to the case for Jesus Christ?

oldat31

J C wrote: »

Your unfounded insults don't make up for your inability to counter my arguments.:)


A non-christian school isn't an Atheist School ... an Atheist School is an Atheist School.
I didn't attend an Atheist School ... I attended a non-christian one that had a liberal religious programme ... including full coverage of the Atheist Religion.
BTW why do you believe that the tenets of Atheism should be the only religion be allowed in Atheist schools?
... sounds highly intolerant to me!!!:(

Then why should the Catholic religion be part of our schools and not others... Why should the Church have any sort of hand in any school, in fact why should any religion be in any school.

I never said Atheist religion should be the only one, I asked a simple question that you wont answer,.... Would you send your child to a school that has no religious education?....

BTW, I'm not Atheist.

oldat31

J C wrote: »

You are in danger of becoming a parody of your own prejudices!!!:eek:

I have no prejudices, so I cannot become parody to anything!

J C

gvn wrote: »

Do you have any problem with the case for Muhammad, as the prophet of Allah, being fairly and comprehensively presented to your children as part of a liberal religious programme at school? Presented on an equal footing to the case for Jesus Christ?

No problem.

J C

J C wrote: »

No problem.

It's good to see that you're consistent. I personally have no problem with children learning about Jesus or Muhammad or other religious leaders and prophets while they're in school, they are an extremely important part of our history and development after all. I'd hope that it would not be taught as an absolute truth -- as it was taught to me -- but instead taught from a historical and philosophical persective. I'd like to see the whole subject of religious education absorbed into a wider philosophical education programme, but that's an argument for another day.

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

Then why should the Catholic religion be part of our schools and not others... Why should the Church have any sort of hand in any school, in fact why should any religion be in any school.

I never said Atheist religion should be the only one, I asked a simple question that you wont answer,.... Would you send your child to a school that has no religious education?.....

No such school exists ... if it is an Atheist School it will be pervaded with the beliefs of Atheistic Humanism ... and it will therefore be a very 'cold place' for Christian children and their parents.
Ye guys aren't even pretending to tolerate Christianity ... ye are vociferously condemning it ...and refusing point blank to allow a Divine Foot inside your doors.

oldat31 wrote: »

BTW, I'm not Atheist.

I know that you are not an Atheist.
BTW despite what you may have been told ... Jesus loves you ... and you can be Saved ... if you believe on Him.

oldat31

J C wrote: »

Ye guys aren't even pretending to tolerate Christianity ... ye are vociferously condemning it ...and refusing point blank to allow a Divine Foot inside your doors.

I know that you are not an Atheist.
BTW despite what you may have been told ... Jesus loves you ... and you can be Saved ... if you believe on Him.

Its this sort of stuff that I cant understand from christians. Why is it so hard to understand that no one is wrong...
I would never ever say a christian is wasting his time by going to church or I would never stop my children being though about it in school....

But yet christians will tell the world they are the only ones that know the truth..? That the rest of us are ignorant!

Well my friend, I am not ignorant because I have read the books and educated myself. I was even an alter boy once, sure I remember a time when my perants thought I was going to be a pirest.

But I still choose to believe its complete fiction and that the pope is the leader of one of the richest cults in the world....

I still choose to believe that the whole christian bubble that surrounds the world is completely corupt and has been nothing but bad for Ireland in the past.

I also believe that in the very near future religion will be removed from the school curriculum, because TBH its not needed in life to get a job, its not needed to get into college, its not needed to do anything really. It also means every school will save 40k a year because it will need 1 less teacher.

Then the church can setup its own schools and perants can then choose to send their children, its win win for everyone.

Northclare

JC I'd say you'll have some people so wound up they will be going round the wrong side of a roundabout by 5 o clock this eve

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

Its this sort of stuff that I cant understand from christians. Why is it so hard to understand that no one is wrong...

If you are saying, like you seem to be saying, that religious education should be banned from school ... you are objectively wrong ... it's an essential part of any liberal education worthy of the name ... and it is in line with the opinions of in excess of 90% of Irish people, who are Theists.
Indeed, I don't see any reason why liberal Atheists wouldn't also welcome a liberal religious education, that includes a fair and comprehensive presentation of their faith position (in the non-existence of God}.

oldat31 wrote: »

I would never ever say a christian is wasting his time by going to church or I would never stop my children being though about it in school....

Very fair, and reasonable ... I must say.
However, your apparent tolerance, is completely undermined by the fact you have said that religion has no place in school ... and some leading Atheists have compared the passing on of the Christian Faith to children as a form of 'child abuse'.
Both of these positions are misguided at best!!
Quote: oldat31 "Why should the Church have any sort of hand in any school, in fact why should any religion be in any school."

oldat31 wrote: »

But yet christians will tell the world they are the only ones that know the truth..? That the rest of us are ignorant!

I respect the liberal Atheist position of live and let live ... but this position is increasingly rare ... as hardline Atheists take over ... who are becoming increasingly intolerant of alternative opinions to their own.
I certainly don't think Atheists are ignorant people ... far from it, they are generally highly intelligent and often very witty ... the late great Christopher Hitchins springs to mind.
In any event, the fact that their worldview is based on an objectively false premise doesn't mean that we can't all be friends!!!:)

oldat31 wrote: »

Well my friend, I am not ignorant because I have read the books and educated myself. I was even an alter boy once, sure I remember a time when my perants thought I was going to be a pirest.

No problem with any of that. One of the reasons I am debating with you is that I respect your incisive, able, intelligent mind.:)

oldat31 wrote: »

But I still choose to believe its complete fiction and that the pope is the leader of one of the richest cults in the world....

I still choose to believe that the whole christian bubble that surrounds the world is completely corupt and has been nothing but bad for Ireland in the past.

there are certainly elements of truth there ... but nobody and no church is perfect.
Could I also respectfully suggest that you shouldn't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' ... and paint all Christians with the one brush!!!

oldat31 wrote: »

I also believe that in the very near future religion will be removed from the school curriculum, because TBH its not needed in life to get a job, its not needed to get into college, its not needed to do anything really. It also means every school will save 40k a year because it will need 1 less teacher.

Then the church can setup its own schools and perants can then choose to send their children, its win win for everyone.

You forget that Churches have already set up their own schools ... so why would they have to do so again? ...
You also seem to believe that you are entitled to simply walk in and take over schools and kick out the Christians who run them ... while the 90% plus Church members in the surrounding community should simply 'roll-over' and allow you to exclusively indoctrinate their children with noGod/anti-God Athesim in former Christian Schools that were set up by their parents and grandparents!!!
A great plan ... if you can get away with it!!!!:eek:
... but forgive me if I have my doubts!!!:D

If you have your way, it would be a very retrograde step ... and a further move towards churning out technocratic nerds with no cultural or philosophical foundation.

Education should also be for living and life ... and this is just as important as getting a good technical education ... and the two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Who would want to be technocratic 'nerd' that was a 'dumbed-down' cultural and philosophical moron?
... and if we have to pay an extra teacher in each school to have a philosophically and culturally enlightened population ... it's well worth it!!!

J C

Northclare wrote: »

JC I'd say you'll have some people so wound up they will be going round the wrong side of a roundabout by 5 o clock this eve

Hopefully NOT!!!

lmaopml

oldat31 wrote: »

A few days ago I had what I think was one of the weirdest conversations I have ever had, I got talking to a guy who is a very strong believer in the RC religion and have talked to him before but because I dont have a belief in any religion or any sort of spirituality I have never talked about religion.

I believe its not my place to question what another thinks or believes so I always steer clear of the topics. But today this guy kicked off questioning me and how I raise my children..

Because I dont teach my children the word of god I am condeming them?.... I believe once they reach the age of making up their own mind they can do as they will. I dont teach them that god is wrong or right, I will let them learn from their own life.

This guy has kids and TBH I could have argued the same thing to him about his kids, but I did'nt because its not my place to question another.

The other part of the issue with it is he believes everyone has a right to believe what they like but because I am not a believer he puts himself above me as a human.... To him I am not worth the time because I will never be turned to god.

Now the reason I posted here is because I have never come across this mindset before and when I look at my circle I actully dont have any believer friends, but I am not sure if its because I am a non-believer or because I just dont have any RC practising friends......

So heres the questions....:

1) Am I over thinking things?
2) Why am I a lower life form for not believing or is that just a small minded person that is a believer???

You will meet many people with many differing opinions and ways of expression during your lifetime. I bet you've met some people who are zealous about lots of stuff that you just pass on by - it's interesting that this person seems to cause you some kind of 'hurt' ? or maybe hurt is not the right word.

You know I'm an RC I've never been 'evangelised', I've answered my door to Mormons ( and respected them, because they gave their hearts ) and answered my door and phone to people who are in the business of selling so many varied things.

I think you answered your own question - you are over thinking things....

Still, it's cool to 'think' sometimes, and every opportunity that passes imo as a Christian and a Catholic one at that, is a tap on the shoulder to do so is important as opportune times.

Unless one would like to live as a hermit to everything.

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

So heres the questions....:... and here's the answers!!

1) Am I over thinking things? Yes
2) Why am I a lower life form for not believing or is that just a small minded person that is a believer???You are not any 'lower' for not believing ... and neither are believers any 'lower' for believing.

... it's just when you start dictating to Christians about what they should teach their children in their schools ... that you are 'out of line'
... I still love you ... and forgive you.:)

Clockwork Owl

J C wrote: »

If you are saying, like you seem to be saying, that religious education should be banned from school ... you are objectively wrong

J C wrote: »

I certainly don't think Atheists are ignorant people [...]
In any event, the fact that their worldview is based on an objectively false premise doesn't mean that we can't all be friends!!!:)

I think you might be confusing the definition of 'objectively'. Both of the above statements appear to be influenced by your personal opinions and beliefs and, with that in mind, I think that the more appropriate and accurate word would be 'subjectively'.

On-topic, I don't think it's common Christian behaviour to berate others for whether they choose to raise their children in faith or not. I was raised as a Christian and went to church from a young age, but now consider myself a fairly open-minded agnostic. It frustrates me now that I felt forced into a faith that might not have naturally been mine for sixteen years and, were I ever to have children, I wouldn't raise them with a particular religion in mind. However, that doesn't mean they can't be informed about the cultures and beliefs of various faiths - just that I wouldn't expect a child to worship as one of them before they were of an age to intelligently make that call themselves.

It's a pretty simple distinction in my mind: "X happened" vs. "Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/Jews believe that X happened".

oldat31

J C wrote: »

If you are saying, like you seem to be saying, that religious education should be banned from school ... you are objectively wrong ... it's an essential part of any liberal education worthy of the name ... and it is in line with the opinions of in excess of 90% of Irish people, who are Theists.
Indeed, I don't see any reason why liberal Atheists wouldn't also welcome a liberal religious education, that includes a fair and comprehensive presentation of their faith position (in the non-existence of God}.

How is it a liberal education when they teach 1 religion and 1 religion only?

J C wrote: »

Very fair, and reasonable ... I must say.
However, your apparent tolerance, is completely undermined by the fact you have said that religion has no place in school ... and some leading Atheists have compared the passing on of the Christian Faith to children as a form of 'child abuse'.
Both of these positions are misguided at best!!
Quote: oldat31 "Why should the Church have any sort of hand in any school, in fact why should any religion be in any school."

I never said it should not, If you read the quote without being defencive it is a question of why should?

J C wrote: »

I respect the liberal Atheist position of live and let live ... but this position is increasingly rare ... as hardline Atheists take over ... who are becoming increasingly intolerant of alternative opinions to their own.
I certainly don't think Atheists are ignorant people ... far from it, they are generally highly intelligent and often very witty ... the late great Christopher Hitchins springs to mind.
In any event, the fact that their worldview is based on an objectively false premise doesn't mean that we can't all be friends!!!:)

Why do you keep quoting atheists, I am not an atheist. I dont have a brand. I am who I am.

J C wrote: »

there are certainly elements of truth there ... but nobody and no church is perfect.
Could I also respectfully suggest that you shouldn't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' ... and paint all Christians with the one brush!!!

I never said anything about christians, I was talking about the cult as a whole.

J C wrote: »

You forget that Churches have already set up and own schools ... so why would they have to do so again ...
You also seem to believe that you are entitled to simply walk in and take over schools and kick out the Christians who run them ... while the 80% plus Church members in the surrounding community should simply 'roll-over' and allow you to exclusively indoctrinate their children with noGod/anti-God Athesim in former Christian Schools that were set up by their parents and grandparents!!!
A great plan ... if you can get away with it!!!!:eek:
... but forgive me if I have my doubts!!!:D

If the church already have their own school then why should religion be apart of main stream school, its not like the church has anything to do with the government or the board of education.....?

J C wrote: »

If you have your way, it would be a very retrograde step ... and a further move towards churning out technocratic nerds with no cultural or philosophical foundation.

I have no clue what a technocratic nerd is, but I cant see how teaching 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year olds makes any difference to them.....

J C wrote: »

Education for life and living ... is just as important as getting a good technical education ... and the two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Who would want to be technocratic 'nerd' that was a 'dumbed-down' cultural and philosophical moron?
... and if we have to pay an extra teacher in each school to have a philosophically and culturally enlightened population ... it's well worth it!!!

Again you are thinking on a personal level, nearly every reply has been on a personal level of how you feel the christian faith is so important to man kind. I have lived the very same as yourself, I am happy, educated, a very social person but yet I dont have a religion. So how do we differ?

My view on the whole thing is people have a choice on how to raise their kids, how they are educated and where. So why should'nt they have a choice on religion and no religion... Why is religion compulsory in mainstream school?

lmaopml

[QUOTE=oldat31;

My view on the whole thing is people have a choice on how to raise their kids, how they are educated and where. So why should'nt they have a choice on religion and no religion... Why is religion compulsory in mainstream school?

I hope you don't mind me butting in In particular JC too..

Freedom of religion means also freedom of choice, how one is educated, or even self educates, if they have the will - one could say that freedom only comes with maturity or position - Tommy Rot!!. That's a double edged sword. I think it's more honest to recognise that freedom of Religion and choices exist as much as freedom to say one is an atheist, and a Christian exist than to pretend they don't..silly person that thinks they can plead...


I often get pretty piddled off when I hear that those who love a secular state will 'tolerate' me...lol...well, I think I don't really need your 'toleration' because I tolerate you....that's what my 'Religion', my Catholic Faith teaches me, that 'choice' and 'freedom' is not given to me by the State or by virtue of some really cool Atheist person who likes freedom. Neither do I extend the freedom to non belief under state law as a 'tolerance' - and not an actual 'human' right.

Freedom for both the Atheist and the Christian is a 'human right' - it's not a tolerance for one or the other, it's not given by one or the other side - it's recognised as such because it IS such. Always has been. I don't succumb to those think practice of my faith should be private, no more than I succumb to those who are mouth pieces for either the Christian community or the Atheist Community who never shut up in public. That's freedom of speech. That's Christianity and it's values - freedom to choose....

oldat31

Thats my point, choice should not be given or earned. Its should just be......

I chose not to believe but while I was in school I was never told its a choice to be a believer or non believer. I was told if I don't believe then I am damned to hell, and JC has told me the same.

In his eyes I have no choice, I must believe because he believes.

Another thing I am guilty of is allowing my kids to be baptised and allowing them to make their communion because it was a choice that was forced on me in a few ways.

1: Family, my grandmother and mother are religious so if I had not conformed to their beliefs I was in danger of causing a rift in our relationships.

2: Other kids, If my child was the only child not to make their communion they would become socially different, and we all know how cruel kids can be, so to make it easier on them I had to conform again. But the funny part is I know about 80% of the perants were doing what I was doing because non of them are religious.

So just by having that belief system connected to the mainstream education it has created a place where people have no choice.

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

Thats my point, choice should not be given or earned. Its should just be......

I chose not to believe but while I was in school I was never told its a choice to be a believer or non believer. I was told if I don't believe then I am damned to hell, and JC has told me the same.

In his eyes I have no choice, I must believe because he believes.

I fully respect your right to believe whatever you wish to believe.
I also agree that your right to believe what you wish to believe is grounded in the fact that you are a Human Being with sovereignty of will ... and not because any other person or group of persons 'grants' you this freedom.
I see no problem with people discussing what they believe with other people in a civil manner ... and that includes listening to the criticism of one's beliefs from others ... that's how we all develop our thinking on different issues and cast aside beliefs that are shown to be false ... it's also one of the primary reasons for the existence of the Boards.ie.

oldat31 wrote: »

Another thing I am guilty of is allowing my kids to be baptised and allowing them to make their communion because it was a choice that was forced on me in a few ways.

1: Family, my grandmother and mother are religious so if I had not conformed to their beliefs I was in danger of causing a rift in our relationships.

2: Other kids, If my child was the only child not to make their communion they would become socially different, and we all know how cruel kids can be, so to make it easier on them I had to conform again. But the funny part is I know about 80% of the perants were doing what I was doing because non of them are religious.

So just by having that belief system connected to the mainstream education it has created a place where people have no choice.

As social creatures we all sometimes use 'discretion rather than valour' when it comes to socially-sensitive issues.
Don't 'beat yourself up' about this.
... I also don't think that it is a reason to remove religious education from schools ... no more than the teaching of spontaneous evolution as a fact and other Materialist Dogmas (like 'what you can physically sense is all there is') should be banned from schools either.
It's all part of a rounded liberal education.

PDN

oldat31 wrote: »

Why is it so hard to understand that no one is wrong...

But I still choose to believe its complete fiction and that the pope is the leader of one of the richest cults in the world....

With one breath you say no-one is wrong - but then you go on to say the Catholic Church is wrong.

oldat31

PDN wrote: »

With one breath you say no-one is wrong - but then you go on to say the Catholic Church is wrong.

The church, not the people that believe. The church has been corupted by greed and power and Irelands history is testament to that.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
If you are saying, like you seem to be saying, that religious education should be banned from school ... you are objectively wrong

Originally Posted by J C
I certainly don't think Atheists are ignorant people [...]
In any event, the fact that their worldview is based on an objectively false premise (that God doesn't exist) doesn't mean that we can't all be friends!!!

Clockwork Owl
I think you might be confusing the definition of 'objectively'. Both of the above statements appear to be influenced by your personal opinions and beliefs and, with that in mind, I think that the more appropriate and accurate word would be 'subjectively'.

Complex specified functional machinery cannot be improved by making non-intelligently directed changes to it ... even with a post-change selection mechanism ... and this is a mathematical (i.e. objective) fact!!!
... so the presence of organisms containing vast quantities of exceedingly high quality CFSI is objective incontravertible evidence of the existence an intelligence / intelligences i.e. a God or Gods.
In relation to my first point about the proposed banning of religious education in schools ... this is objectively wrong as it is advocating censorship of knowledge transmission ... and is a fundamental interference with the rights of parents to have a comprehensive liberal education delivered to their children.

Clockwork Owl wrote:

On-topic, I don't think it's common Christian behaviour to berate others for whether they choose to raise their children in faith or not. I was raised as a Christian and went to church from a young age, but now consider myself a fairly open-minded agnostic. It frustrates me now that I felt forced into a faith that might not have naturally been mine for sixteen years and, were I ever to have children, I wouldn't raise them with a particular religion in mind. However, that doesn't mean they can't be informed about the cultures and beliefs of various faiths - just that I wouldn't expect a child to worship as one of them before they were of an age to intelligently make that call themselves.

People learn many things from their parents and at school ... that they subsequently reject or never use again, when they reach adulthood. However, this is not a reason to ban the teaching of Differential Calculus, Spontaneous Evolution ... or Religious Education from school!!
The point is ... that without knowledge of religious Faiths ... a young person will be unable to make an informed decision about which Faith, if any, to adopt, when they reach adulthood ...
... so, if you want children to make an informed decision, about their adult Faith position, like you say you do ... they need a high quality religious education, if they are to do so.

Clockwork Owl wrote:

It's a pretty simple distinction in my mind: "X happened" vs. "Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/Jews believe that X happened".

Such distinctions also apply to many of the things that Atheists and anti-theists believe.

J C

oldat31 wrote: »

How is it a liberal education when they teach 1 religion and 1 religion only?

They don't do that anymore ... the focus is on Christianity in Christian Schools ... but other belief systems are also covered.

oldat31 wrote: »

I never said it should not, If you read the quote without being defencive it is a question of why should?

They were rhetorical questions ... and therefore statements by you ... and not questions.
... or are you now saying that you don't think that religion should be banned from school?

oldat31 wrote: »

Why do you keep quoting atheists, I am not an atheist. I dont have a brand. I am who I am.

... whatever, you're one of the 'fellow travellers' on the crusade to remove religion from schools!!!

oldat31 wrote: »

If the church already have their own school then why should religion be apart of main stream school, its not like the church has anything to do with the government or the board of education.....?

You seem to forget that over 90% of the Irish population profess themselves to be Christians ... so, by any objective definition, their schools are as 'mainstream' as you're going to get.

oldat31 wrote: »

I have no clue what a technocratic nerd is, but I cant see how teaching 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year olds makes any difference to them.....

... you were the one saying that we need to focus education on skills for jobs ... at the expense of subjects like Irish and Religious Education ... it is even more preposterous to do this with 5-10 year olds ... who won't be taking up jobs for another 10-15 years!!!

oldat31 wrote: »

Again you are thinking on a personal level, nearly every reply has been on a personal level of how you feel the christian faith is so important to man kind. I have lived the very same as yourself, I am happy, educated, a very social person but yet I dont have a religion. So how do we differ?

I'm not advocating enforced censorship in schools ... by banning any viewpoint within them ... whereas you are saying that 'religion' should be banned.

oldat31 wrote: »

My view on the whole thing is people have a choice on how to raise their kids, how they are educated and where. So why should'nt they have a choice on religion and no religion... Why is religion compulsory in mainstream school?

Schools are key institutions in the transmission of knowledge, values and culture between the generations ...
... what you are advocating isn't a choice between religion and no religion ... you are actually advocating the censorship of knowledge about religion in schools ... with full freedom to transmit the dogmas of Materialism throughout the school day ... ideas like spontaneous evolution and 'what you can physically sense is all there is' ... and 'this life is all there is'!!!
... so you get your core beliefs taught as 'fact' throughout the curriculum ... while any dissenting religious views are banned from the building!!!

lmaopml

J C wrote: »

I fully respect your right to believe whatever you wish to believe.
I also agree that your right to believe what you wish to believe is grounded in the fact that you are a Human Being with sovereignty of will ... and not because any other person or group of persons 'grants' you this freedom.

Exactly. Where do you think it comes from? This truth...

I see no problem with people discussing what they believe with other people in a civil manner ... and that includes listening to the criticism of one's beliefs from others ... that's how we all develop our thinking on different issues and cast aside beliefs that are shown to be false ... it's also one of the primary reasons for the existence of the Boards.ie.

Well discussion is good. As a Christian I personally believe that everything 'good' comes from God....not necessarily 'boards'...lol....but boards is it's members, real people, otherwise it's just a few lines of code.

As social creatures we all sometimes use 'discretion rather than valour' when it comes to socially-sensitive issues.
Don't 'beat yourself up' about this.

I don't beat myself up anymore...I've never felt more free than the moment I knew Christ.....it's also a burden a cross too, but one that I can't help but grab with both hands, with joy as mad as it sounds....Strange language, it's almost impossible to express it properly to somebody who may not really even begin to understand....but those who 'begin' will get it I'm quite sure.

... I also don't think that it is a reason to remove religious education from schools ... no more than the teaching of spontaneous evolution as a fact and other Materialist Dogmas (like 'what you can physically sense is all there is') should be banned from schools either.
It's all part of a rounded liberal education.

Well, I don't really have too much to say on this other than I think a school with an 'ethos' a Christian ethos is not necessarily a bad thing - do long as they follow the curriculum, I'm happy out. The advantage for me as a Christian is that God is not set aside during learning time, but that morning prayer, and grace before a meal is not going to do my children any particular damage, but only good. I 'like' the idea that Christian Schools exist, I don't 'like' the idea that one size fits all - I parent my kids, other parents will parent theirs as they see fit.

J C

lmaopml wrote: »

I 'like' the idea that Christian Schools exist, I don't 'like' the idea that one size fits all - I parent my kids, other parents will parent theirs as they see fit.

Variety is the spice of life ... but when you have nationally determined curriculums (for very good reasons) ... variety inevitably must suffer.

... so it may very well come down to religion or no religion being taught in every school ... and you may not be able to parent your children as you see fit!!!
... certainly, if the idea that religious education is a form of 'child abuse' were to take hold ... you could have your children taken into care, if you attempted to teach them about Jesus Christ ... and the 'thought police' were to find out about it.

Sonics2k

J C wrote: »

They don't do that anymore ... the focus is on Christianity in Christian Schools ... but other belief systems are also covered.

I usually prefer to just step around you JC, because your writing style is quite annoying to read at times, but I just want to clear this up.

The 'other belief systems' you say they teach, aren't actually taught. From both personal experience, as well as working with younger people who have just finished college, they really don't teach anything about other religions.

When I was in school our religion teacher referred to the Hare Krishna's as Harry Karshnus, had no idea of it's foundations in Hinduism. She spoke of Buddhism as an Asian Cult. Had no idea about the various forms of Judaism or Islam and basically thought it was just one gigantic religion. This was less than 10 years ago, and little has changed since.

Now. I'd personally see one of two options. Either there is a dedicated theology class, where all religions are taught -correctly-, or no religion is taught at all. Of course this would only apply to a State run non-denominational school, and not to a dedicated religious school.
Give parents a proper choice.

lmaopml

J C wrote: »

Variety is the spice of life ... but unfortunately, when you have nationally determined curriculums ... variety inevitably must suffer.

... so it may very well come down to religion or no religion being taught in every school ... and you may not be able to parent your children as you see fit!!!
... certainly, if the idea that religious education is a form of 'child abuse' were to take hold ... you could have your children taken into care, if you attempted to teach them about Jesus Christ ... and the 'thought police' were to find out about it.

I don't have all the answers JC, I trust in providence, and thank God for those who really showed me what 'love' is. I do believe that people are for the most part seeking good..Most parents bring up their children the best way they know how, and really good parents know that they are only on loan to us..

We teach them, we instill a spirit of seeking for themselves, and we let them sprout roots. I think the best a parent can do is give them the gift of faith.....that's where wisdom finds its source. That's where freedom and an accute understanding of freedom of will resides and respect for others on the journey.

lmaopml

Sonics2k wrote: »

Now. I'd personally see one of two options. Either there is a dedicated theology class, where all religions are taught -correctly-, or no religion is taught at all. Of course this would only apply to a State run non-denominational school, and not to a dedicated religious school.
Give parents a proper choice.

Yikes Sonics2k, I didn't think you were of the dictator variety where only two choices fit in...namely at the detriment of any school that doesn't take it's ethos from the State at any given time....

Freedom doesn't come from the State, it's not State given....

Neither yours or mine.

Freedom is instrinsically tied with freedom of religion, freedom of worship...anything less is well 'less' and restricting. No?

J C

Sonics2k wrote: »

I usually prefer to just step around you JC, because your writing style is quite annoying to read at times, but I just want to clear this up.

The 'other belief systems' you say they teach, aren't actually taught. From both personal experience, as well as working with younger people who have just finished college, they really don't teach anything about other religions.

When I was in school our religion teacher referred to the Hare Krishna's as Harry Karshnus, had no idea of it's foundations in Hinduism. She spoke of Buddhism as an Asian Cult. Had no idea about the various forms of Judaism or Islam and basically thought it was just one gigantic religion. This was less than 10 years ago, and little has changed since.

Now. I'd personally see one of two options. Either there is a dedicated theology class, where all religions are taught -correctly-, or no religion is taught at all. Of course this would only apply to a State run non-denominational school, and not to a dedicated religious school.
Give parents a proper choice.

I'm certainly not claiming the current religious education system is perfect.
Religion (or lack of it) is a very important issue in everybodies lives ... and it becomes even more important in multi-cultural societies, like we are becoming.
Like I have said, a fair and comprehensive presentation of each religious position is an essential requirement for any liberal religious education programme.

doctoremma

J C wrote: »

Like I have said, a fair and comprehensive presentation of each religious position is an essential requirement for any liberal religious education programme.

Do you have any real concept if how long that would take? Really? There are thousands of religions and gods. How do you propose to teach each religious position in a comprehensive fashion without detriment to other subjects?

Of course, I don't believe for one minute that you think all religions should be taught in a fair and comprehensive manner....