New icbf proofs

tismesoitis

Am i right in thinking the new icbf figures will be up tomorrow?
If so i'm hoping Dancer (hcf) Ardlea Dan and Dubai (thz) will be up!!

LivInt20

tismesoitis wrote: »

Am i right in thinking the new icbf figures will be up tomorrow?
If so i'm hoping Dancer (hcf) Ardlea Dan and Dubai (thz) will be up!!

Correct out tomorrow.

New proofs too.

SBV gone, replaced with two indices

1. Terminal
2. Maternal

blue5000

I think the website is down atm anyone else tried it?

LivInt20

blue5000 wrote: »

I think the website is down atm anyone else tried it?

Still up for me.

Will prob be 5pm before proofs released.

bogman_bass

I wouldnt be supprised if it got delayed again. They never seem to hit the deadline with posting proofs

flatout11

will be interesting to see how the new index compares.......

blue5000

Some of the new info is there if you click on 'prev evaluation' still in old format with SBV aug 2012

pakalasa

Good Stuff Blue, ICBF must be thrilled that people are rooting around to find the figures before they have it up fully.

I see STQ has super figures for weanling index, calving nothing to worry about either, ...Legwax on the ball again

APZ, simmental is very easy calving. I used him on big cows. NHL is better than ADX for weanling figures....

tismesoitis

blue5000 wrote: »

Some of the new info is there if you click on 'prev evaluation' still in old format with SBV aug 2012

Can't find this at all where abouts on icbf website is it?? thanks

tim04750

Its on the bull search just tap in the bull code you want to see and when you get the bulls ratings you'll see a clatter of tabs on the top right hand side under the sire and dam ,one of them says" prev eval" tap that and it will give you a page of his changes the latest being aug 12

Bizzum

http://www.icbf.com/taurus/bull_search/index.php?

There's a link.

Min

The bull search will have updated numbers tomorrow.

Bodacious

used OZS on the heifers and he is gone from 5% to 7.8% calving difficulty:mad:

blue5000

Delayed again, it's like feckin christmas:pac:

pakalasa

Up now...very snazzy!!!:D

reilig

What makes a good bull according to the figures??

I have a pedigree limousin bull calf. He had a SBV of Eur128. Now he has a Euro Valve per progeny of Eur 176. He's 5 star all the way through for Docility, Daughter milk, Calving difficulty, Daughter fertility and Carcass weight and 4 star for calving interval.

On ICBF he is ahead of ai limousin bulls like Milbrook Tanko, Graham's Apache etc.

I'm guessing he's one to look after

Munster Magic

Just when I thought I was making sense of the old figures:rolleyes:

Anyone know if it is possible to see the previous figures for a pedigree limousin heifer calf?

Munster Magic

reilig wrote: »

What makes a good bull according to the figures??

I have a pedigree limousin bull calf. He had a SBV of Eur128. Now he has a Euro Valve per progeny of Eur 176. He's 5 star all the way through for Docility, Daughter milk, Calving difficulty, Daughter fertility and Carcass weight and 4 star for calving interval.

On ICBF he is ahead of ai limousin bulls like Milbrook Tanko, Graham's Apache etc.

I'm guessing he's one to look after

Sounds like a good one alright. Whats his breeding like?

pakalasa

It seems to be the same information but presented in a different way.
Why did they get rid of the Weanling Index? They have a Weaning Weight and price per Kg index alright but why did they change it? Surely weanling producers would like the information combined.... STRANGE !!

Bigbird1

pakalasa wrote: »

It seems to be the same information but presented in a different way.
Why did they get rid of the Weanling Index? They have a Weaning Weight and price per Kg index alright but why did they change it? Surely weanling producers would like the information combined.... STRANGE !!

yes the weaning index was very useful and straightforward

Im confused as to whether DEZ is a good bull or not by the figures given,his terminal and maternal indexes are only 1 and 2 star.yet he is 4 and 5 stars for each of the individual traits,apart from calving

pakalasa

Bigbird1 wrote: »

...Im confused as to whether DEZ is a good bull or not by the figures ....

It seems that everthing is now combined into the one figure so, the "Terminal" value takes his very high calving difficulty in account. He has 5 Stars for Carcass Wt & Conformation but it gets dragged down by his calving at 20%....Me thinks anyway.

HWN on the other has 5 full stars for 'Terminal', but his calving difficiculty is lower. He only has 4 1/2 stars for Carcass Conformation & Wt, but the low Calving Diff pulls this up to 5 Full stars for Terminal. PTE is the same way.

So Reilig, a Good Bull (Terminal Value) seems to be one that is easy calving, yet a high Carcass Wt & Conformation. I take it the weanling values are taken into account too

reilig

Munster Magic wrote: »

Sounds like a good one alright. Whats his breeding like?

Sire is Ampertain Commander and dam is off Neuf

Bigbird1

I think the calving ability of daughters index is very useful and important.

I see panda and cwi are the way to go for replacements.

Bigbird1

reilig wrote: »

What makes a good bull according to the figures??

I have a pedigree limousin bull calf. He had a SBV of Eur128. Now he has a Euro Valve per progeny of Eur 176. He's 5 star all the way through for Docility, Daughter milk, Calving difficulty, Daughter fertility and Carcass weight and 4 star for calving interval.

On ICBF he is ahead of ai limousin bulls like Milbrook Tanko, Graham's Apache etc.

I'm guessing he's one to look after

Good luck with him,could you stick up a recent pic of him

flatout11

seems to be some data missing, if you go into the calving traits you cant see how many or what kind of dams a sire was crossed to

bogman_bass

that data always takes an extra week or two to get put up

pakalasa

Bigbird1 wrote: »

I think the calving ability of daughters index is very useful and important.

I see panda and cwi are the way to go for replacements.

You can add FL21 to that. He is by far the best for this.
Nin, IS4 (Simm) also very good.

Munster Magic

reilig wrote: »

Sire is Ampertain Commander and dam is off Neuf

No wonder his figures are so good. What age is he? When are you planning on selling?

Munster Magic

Munster Magic wrote: »

Just when I thought I was making sense of the old figures:rolleyes:

Anyone know if it is possible to see the previous figures for a pedigree limousin heifer calf?

Anyone? Presume its not possible but just making sure

Have a heifer calf out of Elite Erasmus and thought her figures were better in April

farmerjack

Elite Erasmus figures are after crashing in the last few evaluations and as a result all his progeny will fall too. Mind you I have a couple of crossbred calves off of him and they are beginning to show serious shape.

Black Smoke

Bigbird1 wrote: »

I think the calving ability of daughters index is very useful and important.

I see panda and cwi are the way to go for replacements.

Don't know about Pandaa, but I have calves form both this year and last year from CWI. 6 in all. Off charolais X cows. I'm concerned they are wild by nature. Never, ever stay in the bunch of cattle which walk up towards you when you go into the field, and always seem to gallop at least 30 yards away from you, and observe from that distance. I'm pretty meticuluous about herding at least twice a day, and spending as much time as I can standing in and around my stock. Can leave my hand on most all cows in the herd and also on many of the calves. CWI stock don't like me however:o

Munster Magic

farmerjack wrote: »

Elite Erasmus figures are after crashing in the last few evaluations and as a result all his progeny will fall too. Mind you I have a couple of crossbred calves off of him and they are beginning to show serious shape.

Knew his figures were falling and obviously that will affect progeny but I didn't think they would go this bad, Maternal is -€6 and terminal is €53

As you said though they have serious shape, this heifer is the best calf I have had hence why I am disappointed with her figures

flatout11

farmerjack wrote: »

Elite Erasmus figures are after crashing in the last few evaluations and as a result all his progeny will fall too. Mind you I have a couple of crossbred calves off of him and they are beginning to show serious shape.

what was he like for calving i have heard some bad reports

farmerjack

flatout11 wrote: »

farmerjack wrote: »

Elite Erasmus figures are after crashing in the last few evaluations and as a result all his progeny will fall too. Mind you I have a couple of crossbred calves off of him and they are beginning to show serious shape.

what was he like for calving i have heard some bad reports

I had too big pulls with my 2 calves and that was out of big cows, the Dovea rep was telling me he was used on a lot of heifers and there was a lot of calving trouble. I would reckon that the calving difficulty increase is having most of the effect on the figures. IMO his reliability was way to low, and he should have been marketed as such, he had 5 stars for nearly all areas however his reliability was barely into 2 figures

Min

I have 4 Erasmus calves, 3 bulls and a heifer, three out of belgian blue cows and the other is out of a dairy cow.
The ones out of the BB cows are the best beef calves I ever had, though one cow needed a C section to get the calf out, another came backwards but was fine - used the jack on that one, the other two calved themselves with no problems.
Really nice quality calves, but the whole calving difficulty change from easy to hard calving led to me not using him this year, even with the super calves.

tim04750

"I see panda and cwi are the way to go for replacements".

I have half a dozen cwi calves nice stock but too wild, wide hips on em.
Have a couple of ere bull calves out of plain cows, they're miles ahead in terms of quality both hard calvings, one out the side, and one out the back but was panned for a while.

THE LINK WALSH

i looked up my bulls figures this mornin, bought him a couple of years ago in roscrea.i gave over 5 grand for him.at the time of purchase his sbv was 71 [3 star].he is ronick hawk x ferry.this never bothered me as i was never a big believer in the stars but would keep an eye all the same.his figures didnt change much since until this mornin
he is now 111 for terminal and 106 for maternal.on noticing the change i checked out some ai bulls and big changes up and down have occured.if you were buying a bull solely on these figures like many people are you may end up totally dismayed with the whole thing

Bodacious

i was looking at the linear assessment on the lim sire ardlea Dan ADX with these new split figures he has gone from a very tall bull to a much smaller one:mad:

bogman_bass

the liner traits are the traits of his calves not the bull himself

tanko

bogman_bass wrote: »

the liner traits are the traits of his calves not the bull himself

Are you sure about this? I always thought the linear traits are the bull's figures.

Min

tanko wrote: »

Are you sure about this? I always thought the linear traits are the bull's figures.

That is right, given the cow/heifer would also be passing on traits.

pakalasa

In ICBF there are 2 tabs, one for Trait Distribution which is for the progeny of the bull and one for Own, which is for the bull himself.

cow man

It was far better the old way sometimes people should learn to leave things alone,changing the bull's evaluation is neccessary to keep it up to date but the rest should have been left as it was

Bigbird1

So have they sort of replaced the weanling index with the carcass confirmation index?

pakalasa

Bigbird1 wrote: »

So have they sort of replaced the weanling index with the carcass confirmation index?

It looks that way. Why did they get rid of the Weaning Index? Don't weanling producers count or something...:mad:

49801

pakalasa wrote: »

It looks that way. Why did they get rid of the Weaning Index? Don't weanling producers count or something...:mad:

Never understood why there was a Weanling Index in the first place.
Surely its all about beef traits at the end of the day... conformation and weight. just my 2 cents

Bigbird1

49801 wrote: »

pakalasa wrote: »

It looks that way. Why did they get rid of the Weaning Index? Don't weanling producers count or something...:mad:

Never understood why there was a Weanling Index in the first place.
Surely its all about beef traits at the end of the day... conformation and weight. just my 2 cents

I would agree,it was called weaning export,aimed at those shapey weanlings, not all of exported weanlings go to Italy,Spain and other countrys want lesser quality cattle,yet when people talk about export quality they are on about the top end bracket.

pakalasa

Bigbird1 wrote: »

I would agree,it was called weaning export,aimed at those shapey weanlings, not all of exported weanlings go to Italy,Spain and other countrys want lesser quality cattle,yet when people talk about export quality they are on about the top end bracket.

It was a weanling index, for ALL weanlings. Not just the top export quality. The typical suckling herd sells it's weanlings in the autumn. They don't really care about slaughter kill out's, conformation etc.
It's obvious who's calling the shots in the Irish Beef industry.

49801

pakalasa wrote: »

It was a weanling index, for ALL weanlings. Not just the top export quality. The typical suckling herd sells it's weanlings in the autumn. They don't really care about slaughter kill out's, conformation etc.
It's obvious who's calling the shots in the Irish Beef industry.

Sorry... struggling with the point you are trying to make here.

Why should the weanling producer not care about slaughter type index's?
Does the weanling producers buyer not care what sort of carcuss will be produced? The factories reward for better carcuss's so the buyer certainly does!

I would argue that the weanling producer certainly should care what sort of carcuss his cattle are producing. I am not talking about producing export type cattle as some of their calving difficulties can be outragous and its a spealist job. Just that at the end of the day the factories pay on the carcuss and beef cattle are for hanging from a hook and everyman on the production line should be focused on that. Being a weanling is only a milestone in an animals path to the slaughter house anyways.

pakalasa

The point I'm making is that the weanling index reflected the price the weanlings made in the marts across Ireland, regardless of whether they went for export or not. If you are selling weanlings, then obviously, you want to maximise the price you get. The weanling index was great in this regard. Now, in the new system, you don't know what kind of weanlings a bull will produce.

Take the simmental bull HKG for example - In the old system, he had a very low Weanling value, but a high Slaughter value. Now if you look at HKG on the new system, The terminal Value, you would think he was a great bull for weanlings, which in fact he is not.

STQ the BB bull, on the other hand, is the opposite. He has a very high weanling value, but a low Terminal value.

The new system suits the finisher, not the small west of Ireland weanling producer.

49801

pakalasa wrote: »

The point I'm making is that the weanling index reflected the price the weanlings made in the marts across Ireland, regardless of whether they went for export or not. If you are selling weanlings, then obviously, you want to maximise the price you get. The weanling index was great in this regard. Now, in the new system, you don't know what kind of weanlings a bull will produce.

Take the simmental bull HKG for example - In the old system, he had a very low Weanling value, but a high Slaughter value. Now if you look at HKG on the new system, The terminal Value, you would think he was a great bull for weanlings, which in fact he is not.

STQ the BB bull, on the other hand, is the opposite. He has a very high weanling value, but a low Terminal value.


The new system suits the finisher, not the small west of Ireland weanling producer.

Ah right.... I think I am with you now... you were just using the wealning index as a tool/aid to put a value on your weanlings in comparison to the current maket values. And it was a nice and easy thing to do for you and your buyer.