Fines for hanging of laundry in the balcony

AndyG7

Hi,

Is it legal for the board to change house rules and set fines for hanging of laundry in the balcony?

silja

Was there an AGM where this was voted on?

Paulw

Fines, no. Penalties, yes.

I'm sure such issues were discussed at your last management company AGM, and the information would have been available there.

In many cases, depending on the contracts, etc, the development rules can be changed and penalties can be introduced.

AndyG7

Not voted yet, only discussed. I just find it odd that an institution like a private management company can so easily set fines (financial penalties) for breaching such ridiculous house rules like hanging of laundry in the balcony!?

Marcusm

Of drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.

odds_on

I think many complexes have that rule. Imagine the sight if everyone was to hang out their washing on their balconies - not my personal choice of a complex to live in.
If the apartments are rented out, they must provide a dryer washer/dryer when there is no outside provision for drying clothes.

Marcusm

If the drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.

athtrasna

Marcusm wrote: »

If the drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.

I would totally disagree. A penalty can be imposed if there is evidence such as a photo. A cherry picker is not something that can be organised instantly whereas clothes can be moved inside in seconds.

OP are you sure the ban on drying clothes on balconies isn't already in the development rules or leases of the apartments but just not policed yet? It would be pretty standard in developments with balconies.

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

I would totally disagree. A penalty can be imposed if there is evidence such as a photo. A cherry picker is not something that can be organised instantly whereas clothes can be moved inside in seconds.

OP are you sure the ban on drying clothes on balconies isn't already in the development rules or leases of the apartments but just not policed yet? It would be pretty standard in developments with balconies.

Unless the lease provides for a financial penalty it's unlikely to be enforceable at law. In practice, if the threat is of an unenforceable penalty, the behaviour is unlikely to be abated. The freeholder/management company (likely the same legal entity) will, however, be entitled to recover its costs in enforcing the terms of the lease. Additionally, if the clothes are retained pending payment, payment is likely to be forthcoming.

I live in 2 apartment developments and I agree that a cherry picker is not an ongoing solution. However, a blitzkrieg approach to remove the offending items (including perhaps bicycles on balconies) will give a much higher level of compliance for a period of time.

Bleating notes reminding people of their obligations together with meaningless demands are unlikely to suffice if there's a real problem.

One o f the issues with outside clotheslines is they're like rats - they spread very quickly!!!!

TheTurk1972

They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

It is an ugly sight though.

omega666

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

It is an ugly sight though.

This is what i was thinking, how would a management company force anybody to pay a fine?

jimmycrackcorm

omega666 wrote: »

This is what i was thinking, how would a management company force anybody to pay a fine?

It's no different to trying to collect management fees.

athtrasna

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

It is an ugly sight though.

Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it

MadsL

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

It is an ugly sight though.

Last apartment complex I lived in the management company retained ownership of all common areas including balconies.

As owners of the balconies the management company could prevent access to those balconies through injunction if owners/tenants did not comply with the rules.

omega666

athtrasna wrote: »

Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it

As someone already said Unless the lease details a financial penalty it's unlikely to be enforceable by law. Also a renter isn't going to be too worried about all this. They can be sent all the legal treats in the world but the chances of the Management company taking someone to court over this are fairly slim.

RichardFrench

A notice, unless consented to, is contractually bound; If you didn't agree to such a charge in your contract, the law won't enforce it.
As always, acquiescence of tactic consent holds true.

odds_on

RichardFrench wrote: »

A notice, unless consented to, is contractually bound; If you didn't agree to such a charge in your contract, the law won't enforce it.
As always, acquiescence of tactic consent holds true.

If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?

RichardFrench

odds_on wrote: »

If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?

That's my point. If you don't agree to the contract, don't sign it.
Contracts are fluid and dynamic by their very nature but alteration and changes are noticed (the legalese definition, not English) to all interested parties. Ignoring a notice means you agree to it's terms.

RATM

OP do what I did. Go down to a DIY shop like Homebase and pick up a big roll of wicker fencing the same height as your balcony railings. Also get cable ties and then tie it onto the railings of the balcony. Now no-one will be truly be able to tell what is on your balcony without getting really up close to it and squinting their eye to peer in.

I dry clothes on the balcony during the summer (I don't have a dryer despite renting the place). The neighbours can't really tell from a distance what I have on the balcony (I've looked at it myself too and the wicker fencing blocks most things out). Actaully a few of my neighbours have taken to doing the same thing lately so the idea has caught on and now that a good few of us are doing it then it makes it less likely the mgmt co will try to tackle a group of people compared to tackling just one person. The fact that you can't really see clothes from any distance beyond a few meters helps alot, out of sight, out of mind.

The main reason the rule is there is they want to avoid complexes looking like council flats where everyone hangs clothes and sheets from their balconies. So if you find a solution where it can't really be seen that you're doing it then I suspect you'll be left along.

cookie1977

MadsL wrote: »

Last apartment complex I lived in the management company retained ownership of all common areas including balconies.

This is what would normally be the case. The balcony is yours to use but is actually owned by the management company. You have to obey their rules regarding its use. Check the details of your contract/apt manual

number66

odds_on wrote: »

I think many complexes have that rule. Imagine the sight if everyone was to hang out their washing on their balconies - not my personal choice of a complex to live in.
If the apartments are rented out, they must provide a dryer washer/dryer when there is no outside provision for drying clothes.

Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying. My lease states that no laundry on balcony, luckily I have a room that is not used and i hang my laundry there to dry.

Normal crap, Rules that are totally unworkable and wasteful just so place can look 'nice'. If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.

jd

number66 wrote: »

If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.

I presume you mean your landlord?

odds_on

number66 wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying. My lease states that no laundry on balcony, luckily I have a room that is not used and i hang my laundry there to dry.

Normal crap, Rules that are totally unworkable and wasteful just so place can look 'nice'. If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.

So, you're a tenant and when you don't like the view of washing being dried on balconies, you can move out. However, owners who live in their apartments do not want their complexes looking like the back end of old council flats, not to mention the possibility that such breach of Management company regulations may also decrease the value of their property.

So many tenants just do not respect the property they are renting - just check the number of PRTB claims where properties have been damaged beyond normal wear and tear.

TheTurk1972

Oh i forgot. People can also post on the interweb telling you about how you can be forced to pay any charges imposed for hanging your washing out.

But just ask them to show you any proof that anyone has been punished by the law for not paying a "fine" for putting their washing on the balcony.

They wont be able to produce it.

Then let the post some more about fictional things they can do.

cookie1977

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Oh i forgot. People can also post on the interweb telling you about how you can be forced to pay any charges imposed for hanging your washing out.

But just ask them to show you any proof that anyone has been punished by the law for not paying a "fine" for putting their washing on the balcony.

They wont be able to produce it.

Then let the post some more about fictional things they can do.

The people cant be forced to pay the fines but they will reside on the property so if and when it's ever sold a solicitor wont allow it to be bought until all debts are paid.

TheTurk1972

cookie1977 wrote: »

The people cant be forced to pay the fines but they will reside on the property so if and when it's ever sold a solicitor wont allow it to be bought until all debts are paid.

Not true either. Trust me, I know. I've been on various committees over the years. And its the fear that the they can make you pay is all that they have. If you have no fear of it, then they have nothing, because they cant enforce it.

A solicitor would make short work of any board who tried to hold up a sale because of an outstanding "fine" for hanging washing on a balcony. I've seen them crumble for other similar efforts.

cookie1977

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Not true either. Trust me, I know. I've been on various committees over the years. And its the fear that the they can make you pay is all that they have. If you have no fear of it, then they have nothing, because they cant enforce it.

A solicitor would make short work of any board who tried to hold up a sale because of an outstanding "fine" for hanging washing on a balcony. I've seen them crumble for other similar efforts.

Again it depends on whats in the apartment owners handbook

"Fine" is probably the wrong word too. Maybe extra charges on the annual fee or something.

TheTurk1972

cookie1977 wrote: »

Again it depends on whats in the apartment owners handbook

"Fine" is probably the wrong word too. Maybe extra charges on the annual fee or something.

Really, they cant enforce a "fine"/charge/anything for hanging washing on a balcony. If its ever happened the we can be shown a case where it has happened though. Otherwise everyone in the thread can beat around the bush forever. There is no such case.

and yes, fine is wrong. Thats why whenever I said fine, i put it in quotes.

cookie1977

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Really, they cant enforce a "fine"/charge/anything for hanging washing on a balcony. If its ever happened the we can be shown a case where it has happened though. Otherwise everyone in the thread can beat around the bush forever. There is no such case.

and yes, fine is wrong. Thats why whenever I said fine, i put it in quotes.

If the balcony is common area then the owner has to abid by the rules as it's not theirs

Yawns

Marcusm wrote: »

Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder.

This. What are you smoking and can you share it please? You want to steal someone's clothes? You think a cherry picker to enable someone to take someone's items without permission is the solution. If it were legal to do so, they wouldn't be going about clamping cars but instead towing them away. Same principal applies. How it's taken this long to be pointed out tho...

cookie1977

They (managemenet company) could say something like "use of balcony for drying/hanging/storing clothes 200euro per apt" and levy it as part of the apartment maintenance charges and if it's not paid it would be down as unpaid maintenance charges.

It would be just another charge like having a car park space would be a maintenance charge on those people that own one

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it

I agree that forfeiture is the ultimate sanction and that "house rules" as they're often termed can be introduced (although laundry on a balcony is often specified in the lease itself) but I am not familiar with any resi leases where financial penalties are provided for in the manner you describe. However, I have seen plenty of leases providing for lessees to bear the reasonable COSTS incurred by the freeholder in enforcing the lease covenants/house rules. These are different things and I find it hard to believe that a management company properly advised would withhold consent in the manner you describe (ie where the lease is silent on PENALTIES as opposed to COSTS) as that would leave the MC open to significant legal costs and claims for damages.

Marcusm

odds_on wrote: »

If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?

The lease may facilitate a change in the rules or more restrictions on the use and enjoyment of the property but would not be capable of I,posing a pealty unless provided for or consented to in the initial lease. Think about it, coud you be financially bound by 2 independent parties without your agreement?

Solair

In Spain they provide screened areas of large balconies for drying, and in the US they provide fast, cheap, commercial-size dryers in the building.

Irish rental apartments typically provide you with a very cheap washer-dryer that is about as useful as trying to dry your clothes with a washing machine that has a hair-dryer attached to it!

My experience of them is they go around and around for hours and then produce your clothes as a hot, mass of wrinkles that smells like burnt rubber.

Did the designers of these places forget that people needed to actually wash and clothes?!

I would doubt many of the architects or developers have ever had to use an apartment-size developer-special washer-dryer. They probably all have their expensive Miele dryer at home.

It's one of the many reasons why apartments in Ireland aren't exactly attracting many buyers other than people who wanted to do buy-to-let property flipping.

Also things like lack of choice of broadband suppliers in some developments that tried to lock people into the property management company's own service.

No communal space for hosting satellite dishes. Surely they realised that people may want to use them. All they needed to do was run 2 coax cables from each apartment to the roof and provide some visually unobtrusive space to put your dish, or alternatively a hook up to cable or whatever you needed fed through that coax.

Most newer apartments also have no communal gardens / landscaping / play areas and many landlords rent spaces separately and even rent don't provide the designed-in storage units / bike racks that were provided in many buildings (as part of their planning applications).

Also, a lot of the management companies don't exactly do very much other than levy fees.

Marcusm

number66 wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying.

is it a condenser drier? If yes, you need to Empty the water tray!

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

is it a condenser drier? If yes, you need to Empty the water tray!

They said a washer-dryer. They condense the water by running tap water thorough a condenser in the machine and pumping it away.

They are almost invariably utterly useless as dryers.

A proper condenser dryer actually works quite well i.e. one that isn't just a washing machine with a hairdryer in it.

The majority of them could dry maybe a pair of socks but, that's about it.

Marcusm

Yawns wrote: »

This. What are you smoking and can you share it please? You want to steal someone's clothes? You think a cherry picker to enable someone to take someone's items without permission is the solution. If it were legal to do so, they wouldn't be going about clamping cars but instead towing them away. Same principal applies. How it's taken this long to be pointed out tho...

Not smoking anything; it's occasionally happened in complexes to remove bicycles from balconies. The items are securely keptand returned to the owners. As a result, the MC can legitimately add a cost to the annual charge. To be honest, it's only of the few means to deal with issues like this if lessees are unwilling to abide by the leases. I'm not advocating it but equally I wouldn't send letters demanding money which is not due. In respect of cars, different issues can apply. Including the fact that towing cars is incredibly expensive and simply impractical in underground car parks.

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

They (managemenet company) could say something like "use of balcony for drying/hanging/storing clothes 200euro per apt" and levy it as part of the apartment maintenance charges and if it's not paid it would be down as unpaid maintenance charges.

It would be just another charge like having a car park space would be a maintenance charge on those people that own one

They can't unilaterally impose charges but more importantly, this would cause the problem to persist.

Solair

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

cookie1977

Marcusm wrote: »

They can't unilaterally impose charges but more importantly, this would cause the problem to persist.

No just charge those that take use of the service. Take pics as evidence. No unilateral charges

cookie1977

Solair wrote: »

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

Depends on who owns the balcony. Think of signs on railings saying "Bikes will be removed"

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

They said a washer-dryer. They condense the water by running tap water thorough a condenser in the machine and pumping it away.

They are almost invariably utterly useless as dryers.

A proper condenser dryer actually works quite well i.e. one that isn't just a washing machine with a hairdryer in it.

I agree that some of them pump te water away but more of them condense the water into a tray at the bottom and it needs to be removed and poured down the sink - I have 2 of this latter kind.

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

I agree that some of them pump te water away but more of them condense the water into a tray at the bottom and it needs to be removed and poured down the sink - I have 2 of this latter kind.

The ones with a tray are almost always a dedicated dryer. They're not a washer-dryer.

A condenser-dryer is a stand-alone dryer, which uses an air-to-air heat exchanger i.e. draws air from the room in to cool a condenser (and blows hot air back out to the room). The water either comes out in a tray at the bottom (cheap models), pumped into a drawer at the top (more expensive models) or is pumped straight down the drain (if plumbed in).

Washer-dryers use a different system. They are a washing machine, with a heater and a fan and a water-cooled condenser. Water from the mains is trickled through a condenser and the pump sucks it out as it drys. It goes down the same drain hose as the waste water from the wash cycle. There's no air cooled condenser.

They're very very poor dryers.

The only washer-dryers I've ever seen that work are EXTREMELY pricy Miele and Siemens/Bosch models which landlords would never splash out on!

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

It might but as there is no "intent to permanently deprive" the owner of te property, the Gardai will (rightly) deem it a civil matter and walk away.

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

The ones with a tray are almost always a dedicated dryer. They're not a washer-dryer.

I can only attest to having two ofthem currently as washer driers and one of te dedicated driers with such a tray!

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

No just charge those that take use of the service. Take pics as evidence. No unilateral charges

But the point is that the OP wants to stop them at all costs not just regulate and tax them; this is Prohibition!

cookie1977

Marcusm wrote: »

But the point is that the OP wants to stop them at all costs not just regulate and tax them; this is Prohibition!

The only way he/she can do that is get enough votes to vote it down at an AGM

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

The only way he/she can do that is get enough votes to vote it down at an AGM

I'd be shocked if the lease (and i do mean the lease rather than the house rules) did not already preclude it!!!

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

I can only attest to having two ofthem currently as washer driers and one of te dedicated driers with such a tray!

Never seen a washer-dryer with an actual condenser that produced water in a tray, but, maybe there's some model out there. Used to work in an electrical shop in the summers in uni

MadsL

This



€35 in IKEA and folds away under the bed.

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

Never seen a washer-dryer with an actual condenser that produced water in a tray, but, maybe there's some model out there. Used to work in an electrical shop in the summers in uni

Each of the two I currently have are different models and cost no more that £250 - they're in the UK, perhaps more common there.