First we had 'Legitimate Rape', now there's 'Rape creates Extraordinary People'

g'em

From Gawker:

Why is everybody so down on rape? This is what Mike Huckabee wanted to know today, on his radio program, which also featured Rep. Todd "Legitimate Rape" Akin as a guest. For instance, did you know that Ethel Waters was conceived when her mother got raped? Do you know what a world without rape would look like? A world without Ethel Waters, that's what.

This is what Mike Huckabee said today, as transcribed by the Los Angeles Times' James Rainey, about the upside of being raped and then getting pregnant:

"Ethel Waters, for example, was the result of a forcible rape," Huckabee said of the late American gospel singer. One-time presidential candidate Huckabee added: "I used to work for James Robison back in the 1970s, he leads a large Christian organization. He, himself, was the result of a forcible rape. And so I know it happens, and yet even from those horrible, horrible tragedies of rape, which are inexcusable and indefensible, life has come and sometimes, you know, those people are able to do extraordinary things."

For once I'm genuinely at a loss for words...

Diapason

Surely at some point even the average rank-and-file mouthbreather must think "this isn't right". Real news at the moment is virtually indistinguishable from The Onion.

Tombi!

I can see his point completely but he's completely insane if he thinks that it's a logical or even something you'd say to any normal person.
If anything wouldn't the extraordinary people be the mothers rather than the kids?

I'm still trying to understand why he said that about rape.

g'em

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand why he said that about rape.

Huckabee? It was on his syndicated radio show that also had Todd Akin on it. I guess he was trying to smooth over the crevasses of destruction that his good buddy the Toddmeister had said not 24 hours previously. This guy is a previous Governor of Arkansas and was at one time in the running for Presidential Candidate.

Extraordinary rape-babies for some, miniature flags for others. Such is the Republican way.

Logical Fallacy

What the **** is up with these guys and the trend of putting qualifiers before the word rape? Are they trying to say there is "fake rape" and "pretend rape" or something?

AnonoBoy

Rape - it seems like there's nothing it can't do in the eyes of American politicians.

Tombi!

g'em wrote: »

Huckabee? It was on his syndicated radio show that also had Todd Akin on it. I guess he was trying to smooth over the crevasses of destruction that his good buddy the Toddmeister had said not 24 hours previously. This guy is a previous Governor of Arkansas and was at one time in the running for Presidential Candidate.

Extraordinary rape-babies for some, miniature flags for others. Such is the Republican way.

I dunno about politics, really. So I'm not sure what republicans fit into.

I remember yer man alright yesterday, I think. The chap who said that tripe about legitimate rape not being that common during rapes and then we have someone trying to cover for him by saying pregnancies through rape is a good thing?

People look at North Korea as being messed up and often forget just how screwed up America is. It's genuinely frightening to think.

Nodin

g'em wrote: »

From Gawker:



For once I'm genuinely at a loss for words...

One car crash piling into another.

jhegarty

g'em wrote: »

From Gawker:



For once I'm genuinely at a loss for words...

Except that's not what he said.

Here is the actual quote :

"Ethel Waters, for example, was the result of a forcible rape," Huckabee said of the late American gospel singer. One-time presidential candidate Huckabee added: "I used to work for James Robison back in the 1970s, he leads a large Christian organization. He, himself, was the result of a forcible rape. And so I know it happens, and yet even from those horrible, horrible tragedies of rape, which are inexcusable and indefensible, life has come and sometimes, you know, those people are able to do extraordinary things."

Tombi!

jhegarty wrote: »

Except that not what he said.

Here is the actual quote :

"Ethel Waters, for example, was the result of a forcible rape," Huckabee said of the late American gospel singer. One-time presidential candidate Huckabee added: "I used to work for James Robison back in the 1970s, he leads a large Christian organization. He, himself, was the result of a forcible rape. And so I know it happens, and yet even from those horrible, horrible tragedies of rape, which are inexcusable and indefensible, life has come and sometimes, you know, those people are able to do extraordinary things."

That's still messed up.
Well done, you admit rape exists. Now you're trying to make it out like it's "not always a bad thing if the women gets pregnant.".

g'em

jhegarty wrote: »

Except that's not what he said.

Here is the actual quote :

You're right, sorry. What I find inexcusable is that something as horrific a crime as rape is being turned on its head to find a positive. Instead of attending to and addressing the needs of a woman who has suffered from something so traumatising is she then supposed to sit back and think of the extraordinary babies that have come about as a result of such a trauma and think "well maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones?"

Tombi!

g'em wrote: »

You're right, sorry. What I find inexcusable is that something as horrific a crime as rape is being turned on its head to find a positive. Instead of attending to and addressing the needs of a woman who has suffered from something so traumatising is she then supposed to sit back and think of the extraordinary babies that have come about as a result of such a trauma and think "well maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones?"

Well after was the other man said, it had to have some sort of damage control.

I have a feeling the next one is going to be "all we were saying is that being raped and getting pregnant is a good thing; motherhood is something wonderful to experience".

Colmustard

A quote from a nobody gets a thread, the internet is amazing. Its a stupid argument, without rape we may not have had your woman whoever she is, or perhaps we never would have had Einstein or Mozart or Hitler or Stalin.

B0jangles

He also repeatedly uses the phrase "forcible rape", which to me suggests he believes that there is "non-forcible rape" which he thinks is less abhorrent.

Gyalist

There is a large bloc in the Republican Party that shares Akin's beliefs. They are only trying to mitigate his comments now because they know that it won't win them votes.

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.) opened up a can of controversy on Sunday when he claimed that women who are the victims of "legitimate rape" are unlikely to become pregnant. (Akin was defending his belief that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest.) Then Akin, who is running against Democratic incumbent Claire McCaskill for Senate, issued the obligatory statement saying he simply misspoke and really feels very deeply for women who are raped.

But here's the thing: Akin didn't make this idea up. That women can't get pregnant when they're raped is a thing that some people actually believe. I stumbled across this several months ago while researching another story. It turns out to be an idea held and repeated by individuals who oppose abortion in any circumstance.

Todd Akin: Wrong, But Not Alone

Fenian Army

I think thats a reasonable enough thing to say, and I think the OP should change her post to show what actually was said and not a wildly spun version of it.


What he is getting at (I think) is that he thinks that pregnancy as a result of rape should not necessitate an abortion, the child and families involved can go on and have good, productive lives despite these horrible things.

He's certainly not saying rape is good.

Fenian Army

B0jangles wrote: »

He also repeatedly uses the phrase "forcible rape", which to me suggests he believes that there is "non-forcible rape" which he thinks is less abhorrent.

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape. (obviously all kinds of rape are abhorrent)

I'm not an american republican supporter(far from it) but I think people are being unfair on Huckabee.

Gyalist

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Two patterns emerging here in what is already a very dirty election lead in.

1. Just because 1 republican says something indefensible does not mean he speaks for the entire republican party.

Maybe you are just not paying close attention.

The Republican Party is set to once again enshrine into its official platform support for "a human life amendment" to the Constitution that would outlaw abortion without making explicit exemptions for rape or incest, according to draft language of the platform obtained exclusively by CNN late Monday.

LINK

Or the counterpoint
2. Any woman who votes republican in the upcoming election is dumb.

There are many women in the Republican Party who are leading the attempt to restrict reproductive rights.

LINK

B0jangles

Fenian Army wrote: »

I think thats a reasonable enough thing to say, and I think the OP should change her post to show what actually was said and not a wildly spun version of it.


What he is getting at (I think) is that he thinks that pregnancy as a result of rape should not necessitate an abortion, the child and families involved can go on and have good, productive lives despite these horrible things.

He's certainly not saying rape is good.

These are people who want to make it illegal for a woman to have an abortion even in the context of having become pregnant as the result of rape. Dressing it up by saying that fetus might grow up to be the next Einstein is just a frilly way to cover up the reality which is that they do not want the women involved to be able to choose what to do with their own bodies.

B0jangles

Fenian Army wrote: »

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape.

I'm not an american republican supporter(far from it) but I think people are being unfair on Huckabee.

Rape is rape - by attempting to divide rape into types like forcible and presumably non-forcible, they are trying to create the impression that these other types of rape aren't really proper rapes at all.

g'em

Point taken re: quote, I've included it. My bad.

Fenian Army wrote:

He's certainly not saying rape is good.

No, but he's encouraging people to look at a 'bright side' of rape. It's underhand emotional guilt-tripping. It's not reasonable in any way.

Tombi!

Fenian Army wrote: »

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape.

I'm not an american republican supporter(far from it) but I think people are being unfair on Huckabee.

Unfair?
Are you insane?

What if, for example, your family were all murdered and you're mourning and I say "hey, at least there's no chance of them going on to murder someone else so get over your family being murdered, it's not a bad thing
".
It's the same thing as "well, least you know your baby might grow up to be something special, so get over being raped, it's not a bad thing".

g'em

Fenian Army wrote: »

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape.

There's a difference?? That opinion right there is what every woman who brings a rape case to trial fears. There is no kinda bad rape or kinda excusable rape or kinda understandable rape. It's rape. End of.

Tombi!

g'em wrote: »

There's a difference?? That opinion right there is what every woman who brings a rape case to trial fears. There is no kinda bad rape or kinda excusable rape or kinda understandable rape. It's rape. End of.

Of course there is. Neither is better/worse than the other, though.
I think after the comment yesterday, they're basically trying to say "well if you pass out/get drugged/are scared to say no" it's "not that bad, you might get the next Nobel Prize winner as your baby".

It's still really messed up but at least that's how I saw it.

Fenian Army

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Unfair?
Are you insane?

What if, for example, your family were all murdered and you're mourning and I say "hey, at least there's no chance of them going on to murder someone else so get over your family being murdered, it's not a bad thing
".
It's the same thing as "well, least you know your baby might grow up to be something special, so get over being raped, it's not a bad thing".

I think people are being unfair on him given the way his words were spun and your attempt to read something (which I don't think is there) into his words regarding "forcible rape".

That's unfair.

I'm not saying I agree with the man fwiw.

ballsymchugh

is what he said about rape or abortion? seems to me like he was being more pro life in his statement than trying to legitimise rape

Tombi!

Fenian Army wrote: »

I think people are being unfair on him given the way his words were spun and your attempt to read something (which I don't think is there) into his words regarding "forcible rape".

That's unfair.

I'm not saying I agree with the man fwiw.

Well look at this part:
the result of a forcible rape. And so I know it happens, and yet even from those horrible, horrible tragedies of rape, which are inexcusable and indefensible, life has come and sometimes, you know, those people are able to do extraordinary things."

So basically: if you were forced into having sex and get pregnant, you might have a chance at having a great child.

You could have that chance with any child! I know you're not agreeing but come on, it's a very, very messed up thing to say.

Fenian Army

g'em wrote: »

There's a difference?? That opinion right there is what every woman who brings a rape case to trial fears. There is no kinda bad rape or kinda excusable rape or kinda understandable rape. It's rape. End of.

Did I say that?


No. (of course you knew that before your post).

cristoir

The stupidity from some members of the GOP is breathtaking. The economy appears fairly weak and there is a democratic incumbent in the white house. You'd think they would run on that. But no they want to fight a culture war they can't win instead.

B0jangles

Fenian Army wrote: »

Did I say that?


No. (of course you knew that before your post).

I have to point out, you did post this:

Fenian Army wrote: »

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape.

Which I took to mean that you think there is a meaningful distinction between the two, with date rape not being as bad.

Fenian Army

B0jangles wrote: »

I have to point out, you did post this:



Which I took to mean that you think there is a meaningful distinction between the two, with date rape not being as bad.

You were wrong. I think all kinds of rape are bad, and I didn't read his comments as saying that other kinds of rape are not bad or as bad.

Logical Fallacy

Fenian Army wrote: »

I read it as meaning violent rape rather than say date rape.

Because date rape is never violent?

I think you need to learn from these Republican and think clearly about what you are saying, before you say something that appears to make you look stupid.

Fenian Army

Pitchforks are truly out it seems.

Slán.

lazygal

Fenian Army wrote: »

Pitchforks are truly out it seems.

Slán.

Don't let the door hit you forcibly on the way out.

tbh

g'em wrote: »

No, but he's encouraging people to look at a 'bright side' of rape. It's underhand emotional guilt-tripping. It's not reasonable in any way.

No - with respect, he's not. He's saying "two wrongs don't make a right".


What he's doing is expressing an opinion which is entirely consistent with his views on abortion. He considers abortion to be murder.
A lot of people who don't consider abortion to be murder generally counter this argument by saying "well what about the victims of rape or incest?" because that's a hard question. nobody wants to be seen to further "punish" victims of rape.
However, what huckabee was saying is that if a woman gets pregnant as a result of a rape and then has an abortion, it is the child that is punished.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with him, but I can definiately see (a) what he is saying and (b) why he was saying it.

Nobody would argue that it would be fair to punish a rapist by executing his six-year-old child. Huckabee would be of the opinion that abortion would be the same.

tbh

cristoir wrote: »

The stupidity from some members of the GOP is breathtaking. The economy appears fairly weak and there is a democratic incumbent in the white house. You'd think they would run on that. But no they want to fight a culture war they can't win instead.

I think you would be surprised at how much support Huckabee's viewpoint would have in middle america.

Diapason

tbh wrote: »

I think you would be surprised at how much support Huckabee's viewpoint would have in middle america.

Indeed, and I suspect it will ultimately be enough to hand the upcoming election to the Republicans.

I think we get a *slightly* jaundiced view of Republicanism in the media here, and while there's no doubt that the extreme edge is on the rise, when you're dealing with a 2-party system like the US, various aspects of Republicanism are going to appeal to a large proportion of the population.

[flame suit]You also have to bear in mind that if a party is going to prey on the fears of those with below-average intelligence, then they're already appealing to 50% of the electorate. The Republicans are better at that than the Democrats. (No, I'm not saying that if you vote GOP you're stupid by definition).[/flame suit]

My name is URL

g'em wrote: »

You're right, sorry. What I find inexcusable is that something as horrific a crime as rape is being turned on its head to find a positive.result of such a trauma and think "well maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones?"

Saying that good people have been conceived out of rape isn't putting a positive spin on rape. Would it be nicer or fairer to say or hold the view that the opposite is true? Loads of women have given birth to and raised children conceived out of rapes.. they've been victimised enough without wider society holding the belief that no good can come from them bringing a child into the world in such circumstances.

Fact is that many people have been conceived in such circumstances, and many have gone on to do great things. It doesn't mean that every woman should choose not to have an abortion, but they shouldn't all be expected to either just because that's what everyone else sees as being the best choice for them.

Many Democrats and Liberals hold similar views in that regard.. Martin Sheen and his wife for example; who was actually conceived when her mother was raped, have long been of the opinion that rape victims should not automatically be expected to abort just because others see it as the right thing to do.

Tombi!

My name is URL wrote: »

Saying that good people have been conceived out of rape isn't putting a positive spin on rape.

It is, in a way. I'd say it's more accurate to describe it as "well you got raped, get over it because the good news is your child could be someone amazing!".

Anyone's child can turn out to be the next genius/artist/whatever.

DrumSteve

The way I look at it is: Rape is Rape. It's not "forced" rape or "unforced" rape or any of your other garden variety rapes. It's not even "rape" in quotation marks.

When someone is raped, they are brutally violated. The only extra-ordinary thing about it is the fact these women (and men) who are subjected to this are able to continue on with their lives without breaking down. The fact that they get impregnated by this act is a moot point (and that these idiots believe that the womens bodies can resist this beggars belief). The child itself is innocent of the act, but will always act as a reminder.

It's a pretty horrible situation to be in without these assholes making political capital out of it.

sheesh

I suppose we can only hope they are doing it on purpose to prevent romney from becoming president.

Wibbs

DrumSteve wrote: »

The way I look at it is: Rape is Rape. It's not "forced" rape or "unforced" rape or any of your other garden variety rapes. It's not even "rape" in quotation marks.

While I agree with the rest of your post, especially your last line I'd disagree here, or at least consider degrees of rape. We consider degrees in assault and unlawful killing, but not rape. Rape is another crime against the person and as such those degrees must objectively exist. Yet to even suggest that, even in this thread garners responses like lazygal and Logical Fallacy's above. Hey I'm NOT singling them out as I'm part of that too and I was about to hit the thanks button on those posts myself. The word "Rape" almost invites a "!" after it. I'm in two minds as to whether this is always a good thing, particularly with tackling the subject in our society.

Look at G'em's opening post and the following WTF?!! posts who all got thanked including by me. Then came jhegarty's post which clarified what the man actually said. Even though it still has a serious case of WTF about it, it's not nearly as inflammatory as first impressions led us to believe. Even so the feelings agin him are more to do with those first impressions than what he actually said. The word rape is not unlike the Mohammad cartoons that caused controversy among Muslims, some level of reason tends to go out the window at times. At least debate over the finer points. IE the given that rape is rape and equal regardless of context. I'm sorry, IMHO anyway, a case of rape where say a woman feels pressured into and unhappy with sleeping with her boyfriend is a world away from say a war rape in Kosovo, or at least there are degrees separating them. Yes they are both rapes, but just like if I get my nose broken in an assault, compared to me ending up in hospital in a coma from an assault there are degrees involved.

Rape as a crime exists in an odd mind environment in our culture. On the one hand it's almost a sacred cow of a crime, considered the very worst thing that could happen to the person and beyond any grey area questioning of that or the circumstances of an individual case, on the other hand you have the undercurrent of "she was asking for it you know" and shíte like 6 month sentences for sexual assault and lines of mouthbreathers queuing up to shake the hand of a convicted rapist.

Diapason

Wibbs wrote: »

Look at G'em's opening post and the following WTF?!! posts who all got thanked including by me. Then came jhegarty's post which clarified what the man actually said. Even though it still has a serious case of WTF about it, it's not nearly as inflammatory as first impressions led us to believe. Even so the feelings agin him are more to do with those first impressions than what he actually said.

Completely agree, Wibbs, and I'm sorry I wasn't a bit more circumspect with my early response. On another day I'd be arguing that the basic idea is completely reasonable (that even children born of rape can be amazing people) and that within the viewpoint espoused, 100% logical (if you believe abortion = murder, then abortion = murder even in the case of rape).

Speaking personally, I'm "concerned" by the tone and thrust of some of the GOP positions in recent years, because I think society is moving backwards, and like it or not this has a knock-on effect on the rest of the world. Against that backdrop it's hard not to react to something that seems, on the face of it, to be yet another anti-woman screed.

DrumSteve

Wibbs wrote: »

While I agree with the rest of your post, especially your last line I'd disagree here, or at least consider degrees of rape. We consider degrees in assault and unlawful killing, but not rape. Rape is another crime against the person and as such those degrees must objectively exist. Yet to even suggest that, even in this thread garners responses like lazygal and Logical Fallacy's above. Hey I'm NOT singling them out as I'm part of that too and I was about to hit the thanks button on those posts myself. The word "Rape" almost invites a "!" after it. I'm in two minds as to whether this is always a good thing, particularly with tackling the subject in our society.

Look at G'em's opening post and the following WTF?!! posts who all got thanked including by me. Then came jhegarty's post which clarified what the man actually said. Even though it still has a serious case of WTF about it, it's not nearly as inflammatory as first impressions led us to believe. Even so the feelings agin him are more to do with those first impressions than what he actually said. The word rape is not unlike the Mohammad cartoons that caused controversy among Muslims, some level of reason tends to go out the window at times. At least debate over the finer points. IE the given that rape is rape and equal regardless of context. I'm sorry, IMHO anyway, a case of rape where say a woman feels pressured into and unhappy with sleeping with her boyfriend is a world away from say a war rape in Kosovo, or at least there are degrees separating them. Yes they are both rapes, but just like if I get my nose broken in an assault, compared to me ending up in hospital in a coma from an assault there are degrees involved.

Rape as a crime exists in an odd mind environment in our culture. On the one hand it's almost a sacred cow of a crime, considered the very worst thing that could happen to the person and beyond any grey area questioning of that or the circumstances of an individual case, on the other hand you have the undercurrent of "she was asking for it you know" and shíte like 6 month sentences for sexual assault and lines of mouthbreathers queuing up to shake the hand of a convicted rapist.

I get what your saying, though, to me it doesnt matter if someone is pressuring you or holding a gun to your head, if someone fúcks someone when they dont want to be fúcked, thats rape. There is no inbetween.

(on phone so will address your other points when I get to a PC)

Faolchu

B0jangles wrote: »

He also repeatedly uses the phrase "forcible rape", which to me suggests he believes that there is "non-forcible rape" which he thinks is less abhorrent.

See in the non forced rape they ask you nicely for permission to rape you

Min

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

What the **** is up with these guys and the trend of putting qualifiers before the word rape? Are they trying to say there is "fake rape" and "pretend rape" or something?

RTE did a thing on fake rape on Prime time investigates and it cost them a lot of money.

Chucky the tree

B0jangles wrote: »

He also repeatedly uses the phrase "forcible rape", which to me suggests he believes that there is "non-forcible rape" which he thinks is less abhorrent.

Consentual sex between someone over the age consent and someone under it would be considered "non-forcible rape".

Wibbs

DrumSteve wrote: »

I get what your saying, though, to me it doesnt matter if someone is pressuring you or holding a gun to your head, if someone fúcks someone when they dont want to be fúcked, thats rape. There is no inbetween.

Oh sure, but like I said, if you punch me in the face and crack my nose, that's assault, if you beat me into a hospital bed and a coma, that's also assault, yet the majority would agree that there is a quantitative difference between the two crimes. Take the analogy further. If you had the choice between those two assaults which would you choose? My point was rape is almost unique among crimes in that no such relativity of degree will be even countenanced. The very word itself is enough to knock that on the head and IMHO there are degrees of severity. This does not mean that the person who is raped is under some daft obligation to not feel as violated if their particular degree is "lesser". Not at all. Indeed the so called "date rape" may lead to even more feelings of "I should have done more compared to having an actual gun to my head"(very wrongly). I'm just interested in how rape is perceived in a particular way as a crime.

Scanlas The 2nd

B0jangles wrote: »

He also repeatedly uses the phrase "forcible rape", which to me suggests he believes that there is "non-forcible rape" which he thinks is less abhorrent.

Do you think every single act of rape is equally as bad?

Surely rape in conjunction with physical torture is worse all other things equal?

B0jangles

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Do you think every single act of rape is equally as bad?

Surely rape in conjunction with physical torture is worse all other things equal?

But that's not the intent of the implied comparison. By saying forcible rape, they bring to mind a "totally innocent" woman dragged into a dark alleyway. Ther obvious comparison is with acquaintance rape, which is in fact infinitely commoner. They appear to believe that the victims of acquaintence rape are less injured, less victimized, less innocent and somehow more responsible for what happened to them.

I belived it is important to establish firmly that most rapes are not the "alleyway" type - they are the acquaintance type; I've read several studies where a disturbing percentage of young college aged men admitted to raping women as long as the word rape was not used . As far as they were concerned "Jump out of alley and grab woman = rape" but "have sex with mostly comatose girl at a party = scoring. "

This perception needs to be changed.