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scientifically illiterate politics

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Matt_Trakker


    Yea, I really don't get this type of stuff, I firmly believe that to hold a ministerial position you should have, at the very least, a Master Thesis achieved in the subject.

    And if you're a health minister you can't be fat or smoke. Mary Harney was a pure embarrassment, if a person cannot even take charge of their own health issues then how they hell can we expect them to take charge of the health institutes of the nation.

    I'd welcome a system where after a general election results came out then we'd be allowed to vote for the people to take up ministerial position where we'd actually be able to pick the people with the best experience and knowledge for the post they are running for.

    Won't happen though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,482 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Yea, I really don't get this type of stuff, I firmly believe that to hold a ministerial position you should have, at the very least, a Master Thesis achieved in the subject.

    And if you're a health minister you can't be fat or smoke. Mary Harney was a pure embarrassment, if a person cannot even take charge of their own health issues then how they hell can we expect them to take charge of the health institutes of the nation.

    I'd welcome a system where after a general election results came out then we'd be allowed to vote for the people to take up ministerial position where we'd actually be able to pick the people with the best experience and knowledge for the post they are running for.

    Won't happen though.

    That's what happens when our government is made up of mainly teachers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    That's what happens when our government is made up of mainly teachers.

    primary school teachers (science is not included in the curriculum)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    Sean Sherlock and the 'series of toobs' lad are far worse


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Richard Dah-kins lead the charge, insisting that the Trust should not have given in to pressure from “intellectual baboons”

    He said it was regrettable that the Trust had “paid lip-service to the ignorant bigotry” of fundamentalists.

    I'm only guessing that the OP is some kind of fan of this ejit. Before he writes another speech he should read a fucking dictionary.
    Definition of bigoted
    adjective
    having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    squod wrote: »
    I'm only guessing that the OP is some kind of fan of this ejit. Before he writes another speech he should read a fucking dictionary.

    In this case Dawkins has all of science on his side. He has every right to disregard the nonsense of these modern day puritans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Ush1 wrote: »
    our government is made up of mainly teachers.
    I'm sure you won't mind providing a source for this gem?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    In this case Dawkins has all of science on his side. He has every right to disregard the nonsense of these modern day puritans.

    No he doesn't. Also, I take a bleak view of any ''scientician'' who manages to offend peoples beliefs in order to pleasure themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Matt_Trakker


    squod wrote: »
    No he doesn't.

    No, err, he does actually.
    squod wrote: »
    Also, I take a bleak view of any ''scientician'' who manages to offend peoples beliefs in order to pleasure themselves.

    Yea, spreading knowledge is a terrible, terrible thing and those responsible for such heinous acts should be burned at the stake and their eyes gouged out & fed to the pigs. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    squod wrote: »
    I'm only guessing that the OP is some kind of fan of this ejit. Before he writes another speech he should read a fucking dictionary.


    "Definition of bigoted
    adjective
    having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others"

    Whether you're accusing Dawkins of being a bigot or simply excusing the young-earth creationists of it, you appear to have missed an important word in your definition: "obstinate"

    ob·sti·nate/ˈäbstənit/
    Adjective:
    Stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.

    The demand for equality doesn't extend to things of a factual nature. Creationists don't have their own set of facts - they've got nonsense.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,231 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    amadain17 wrote: »
    I came across this article entitled "Kentucky Lawmakers Shocked To Find Evolution In Biology Tests" in slashdot:

    http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/08/17/1533234/kentucky-lawmakers-shocked-to-find-evolution-in-biology-tests

    You'd think that Ireland would be free from this sort of anti-science stream of unthought but we have a bad habit of following the States. In fact, had pressure not been but to bear on Conor Lenihan when he was in government, we might have our former Minister for Science endorsing anti-science whackos:

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/138007-conor-lenihan-minister-science-launch-anti-evolution-book.html

    Also just across the border, our closest neighbours also show that anti-science is on the rise:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0810/1224321879998.html

    In the 21st century should we be worried that there are groups with political muscle that are actively trying to return us to the dark ages?

    A

    Scientists have given nuclear states the capability of sending us back to the stone age, so the dark ages will be slightly better.:P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭lily09


    amadain17 wrote: »
    primary school teachers (science is not included in the curriculum)


    Yes it is:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    Yes it is

    I never knew this. Have primary schools got science labs now? I thought it was just secondary schools. Well you live and learn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭lily09


    amadain17 wrote: »
    I never knew this. Have primary schools got science labs now? I thought it was just secondary schools. Well you live and learn


    Science labs, I wish!We have one toilet for 15 people with no hot water and a draught! No science labs but there is an ambitous science currriculum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    Science labs, I wish!We have one toilet for 15 people with no hot water and a draught! No science labs but there is an ambitous science currriculum.

    Is it individual teacher or state driven?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭aaronjumper


    It's reading things like this that make me believe
    humankind has gotten as advanced as it ever will.
    Mentally anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭lily09




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17



    Thank you. Maybe we will advance regardless. I fear the introduction of "creation science" in the science curriculum


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭lily09


    amadain17 wrote: »
    Thank you. Maybe we will advance regardless. I fear the introduction of "creation science" in the science curriculum

    God, doesnt bear thinking about!!
    Dont think that will ever happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Gbear wrote: »




    The demand for equality doesn't extend to things of a factual nature. Creationists don't have their own set of facts - they've got nonsense.

    Maybe what you have is a ''prejudiced intolerance''?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    Maybe what you have is a ''prejudiced intolerance''?

    are you actually arguing FOR creationism?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    amadain17 wrote: »
    are you actually arguing FOR creationism?

    I'm arguing for the right of people not to be made a monkey of. Believe this guys crap all you want. You have every right to.

    Likewise, people of faith should not be talked down to by some ejit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    squod wrote: »
    Likewise, people of faith should not be talked down to by some ejit.
    Would you agree to teaching science in science class and nonsense fantasy mythology dogma religion in religion class?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    squod wrote: »
    Maybe what you have is a ''prejudiced intolerance''?

    I'm not sure you understand what "tolerance" means.

    It doesn't mean you have to be nice. It doesn't mean you have to say "I respect your beliefs".
    Saying Creationism is bull**** isn't intolerance. Barring the doors of a church to stop people going to mass is intolerance. Shooting people you don't agree with is intolerance.

    As for "prejudiced". Richard Dawkins knows enough about geology to know that the creationist explanation for the Giant's Causeway is bollocks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Would you agree to teaching science in science class and religion in religion class?

    I'd agree that the education I got during those years at a Catholic school was more than adequate.

    I didn't once have to listen to anyone try make a monkey out of me. If you would like to believe you're a monkey than that is your right. Once we don't step on each others toes in this dance it's all good.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    I didn't once have to listen to anyone try make a monkey out of me. If you would like to believe you're a monkey than that is your right. Once we don't step on each others toes in this dance it's all good.

    you are a primate and share a common ancestor with modern monkeys. Does your status in the world pose a problem to you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    squod wrote: »
    I'd agree that the education I got during those years at a Catholic school was more than adequate.

    I didn't once have to listen to anyone try make a monkey out of me.

    If your understanding of science allows you to reject evolution, I think I'd have to disagree with your understanding of the word 'adequate'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,779 ✭✭✭up for anything


    I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist over believing that we are descended/have evolved from apes (not monkeys!). I'd sooner trace my line back to them than to two people who broke God's law and couldn't even keep their hands off a miserable apple. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    amadain17 wrote: »
    you are a primate and share a common ancestor with modern monkeys. Does my status in the world pose a problem to you?

    Go ahead and believe your a monkey. As I said earlier you've every right to.
    Gurgle wrote: »
    If your understanding of science allows you to reject evolution, I think I'd have to disagree with your understanding of the word 'adequate'.

    Apologies if I have offended your belief system. I'm ''allowed'' to think as I like. Do you seek permission from other monkeys before you make a decision?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    squod wrote: »
    Go ahead and believe your a monkey.

    It seems you're having difficulty with understanding the basics of evolution. You've also every right to believe that grass is red and that 1+1 =3 but don't expect us to think every kid should be taught the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭amadain17


    Apologies if I have offended your belief system. I'm ''allowed'' to think as I like.

    You certainly are. You can believe in Fairies and the Easter Bunny and Noah's Ark as much as you want but you can't teach any of this in science class because it isn't science. This thread was about politicians, and people in powerful positions, having these silly beliefs and the fear that this could lead to laws that affect all of us. Teachers of our children also come into the powerful position category.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Yea, I really don't get this type of stuff, I firmly believe that to hold a ministerial position you should have, at the very least, a Master Thesis achieved in the subject.

    And if you're a health minister you can't be fat or smoke.
    I agree they should have the education relevant to the work they do but I don't see how being fat or enjoying smoking has any baring on their ability to do their job. If we had a fit Mary Harney would she really be better at her job or worse because she'd be spending all her time in the gym?

    It's all about whether you can do the job, looks shouldn't come into it.


    Politicians are attention whores. All of them without exception would say the sky is green if it meant keeping their job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,482 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Gurgle wrote: »
    I'm sure you won't mind providing a source for this gem?

    I can't, it's purely anecdotal and from what I've seen. I'd be interested to see a report on the professions of all politicians prior to entering politics. Is there such a one?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    squod wrote: »
    Do you seek permission from other monkeys before you make a decision?
    Well I wouldn't declare that a scientific discovery which was tested, studied and verified by lots of smarter monkeys is wrong. Even if I was convinced that my imaginary friend had planted all the evidence as a wind-up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Jernal wrote: »
    It seems you're having difficulty with understanding the basics of evolution. You've also every right to believe that grass is red and that 1+1 =3 but don't expect us to think every kid should be taught the same.

    70% of people who voted, voted for people like this. Do you have an issue with understanding democracy?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    amadain17 wrote: »
    You certainly are. You can believe in Fairies and the Easter Bunny and Noah's Ark as much as you want but you can't teach any of this in science class because it isn't science. This thread was about politicians, and people in powerful positions, having these silly beliefs and the fear that this could lead to laws that affect all of us. Teachers of our children also come into the powerful position category.

    I'd imagine believing you're a monkey is way more dangerous to the nation than a belief in God.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,482 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    squod wrote: »
    Go ahead and believe your a monkey. As I said earlier you've every right to.

    We're actually apes, not monkeys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    squod wrote: »
    70% of people who voted, voted for people like this. Do you have an issue with understanding democracy?

    No I don't. It's mob rule where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the other 49 if they so wish.* Thankfully, we don't live in a democracy.


    *Jefferson paraphrased..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    squod wrote: »
    Go ahead and believe your a monkey. As I said earlier you've every right to.



    Apologies if I have offended your belief system. I'm ''allowed'' to think as I like. Do you seek permission from other monkeys before you make a decision?

    You are a primate. You share a common ancestor on the path of evolution with other modern day primates. You are not a monkey, nor are any of the rest of us, but you do share a common ancestor. If you think this makes you a monkey, then what's failing you is your understanding of English. If, on the other hand, you think you're the divine equivalent of playdough, then you're entitled to that belief, but the rest of us are entitled to feel it's complete horseshít, and there's only supporting evidence for one of these positions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I can't, it's purely anecdotal and from what I've seen. I'd be interested to see a report on the professions of all politicians prior to entering politics. Is there such a one?

    A dig around wikipedia gives this mix for the cabinet:

    Enda Kenny Teacher
    Eamonn Gilmore Unions
    Simon Coveney Farmer
    Jimmy Deenihan Footballer
    Frances Fitzgerald Social Worker
    Pat Rabbitte Unions
    Ruairi Quinn Architect
    Phil Hogan Teacher
    Michael Noonan Teacher
    James Reilly Medical Doctor
    Richard Bruton Economist
    Alan Shatter Solicitor
    Brendan Howlin Teacher
    Joan Burton Accountant
    Leo Varadkar Medical Doctor


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    In all honesty I don't really care what they're professional background is prior to entering into politics. I'd just rather they actually had some aptitude and competency in their designated area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    squod wrote: »
    I'd imagine believing you're a monkey is way more dangerous to the nation than a belief in God.
    It's not a believing it's a classification system, just like bottle nosed dolphins are a member of the porpoise family. Classification and knowing how mammals work, what makes them different and what sets them apart has huge benefits which allow us to do all sorts of things like test drugs on other animals rather than people. Believe in god just seems to make people believe incredulous nonsense despite all evidence to the contrary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Gurgle wrote: »
    A dig around wikipedia gives this mix for the cabinet:

    Enda Kenny Teacher
    Eamonn Gilmore Unions
    Simon Coveney Farmer
    Jimmy Deenihan FootballerTeacher
    Frances Fitzgerald Social Worker
    Pat Rabbitte Unions
    Ruairi Quinn Architect
    Phil Hogan Teacher
    Michael Noonan Teacher
    James Reilly Medical Doctor
    Richard Bruton Economist
    Alan Shatter Solicitor
    Brendan Howlin Teacher
    Joan Burton Accountant
    Leo Varadkar Medical Doctor

    FYP

    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/teachers-still-top-of-class-for-31st-dail-representation-2560128.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭MarkHitide


    squod wrote: »
    No he doesn't. Also, I take a bleak view of any ''scientician'' who manages to offend peoples beliefs in order to pleasure themselves.

    Scientitian


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    squod wrote: »
    No he doesn't. Also, I take a bleak view of any ''scientician'' who manages to offend peoples beliefs in order to pleasure themselves.
    squod wrote: »
    I'm arguing for the right of people not to be made a monkey of. Believe this guys crap all you want. You have every right to.

    Likewise, people of faith should not be talked down to by some ejit.
    squod wrote: »
    I'd agree that the education I got during those years at a Catholic school was more than adequate.

    I didn't once have to listen to anyone try make a monkey out of me. If you would like to believe you're a monkey than that is your right. Once we don't step on each others toes in this dance it's all good.

    I was going to argue with you but I sincerely doubt anyone is so ignorant as to believe all of this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I presume the general notion of having a Senate is related to this - you've got one house of the common people and one house of people who are granted power based on their standing in the community.

    There are far too few scientists and engineers in politics. I'd say by their nature they're generally not suited to it - style over substance winning out every time.

    I'd be inclined to think that having some sort of technocracy at least in part, might be a good idea.
    Experts in various fields would be given some executive power by virtue of having more knowledge and technical experience than the ordinary punter.

    It kinda ties in with the whole "balance" notion propagated in the media - somehow it's seen as "balance" when you've got somebody pedaling bull**** like homeopathy being given equal air time as somebody basing their opinions on evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭gibraltar


    squod wrote: »
    I'd imagine believing you're a monkey is way more dangerous to the nation than a belief in God.


    Lets begin with a reality we both know, nobody believes they are monkeys, lets respect each other and not pretend otherwise ok?

    Now as for which has been more dangerous to Ireland - a belief in evolution or a belief in God (two things which as you know are not mutually exclusive) - have you ever heard of a decades long systematic cover up of child abuse by senior people associated with evolution in this country?

    now ask the same question about senior people associated with religion...


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Surprised this wasn't posted yet: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/atheists.png


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Anyway, as sad as it is when things like this come up one can only hope the great Hitchens, blessings and peace be upon him, was right when he reckoned that it's just the death-throes of widespread mysticism and idiocy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    squod wrote: »
    I'd agree that the education I got during those years at a Catholic school was more than adequate.

    I didn't once have to listen to anyone try make a monkey out of me. If you would like to believe you're a monkey than that is your right. Once we don't step on each others toes in this dance it's all good.
    Catholic education in Ireland does not involve the substitution of fact with religious ideology. Sure, there may be some moral claims made in religion class with which people may disagree, but when it comes to the hard sciences the curriculum is free from religious bias.

    Whatever worldview you subscribe to may bring you to believe that evolution is a lie but the reality is that it is regarded as fact, a model so robust that it is no longer disputed. You mighn't care if they start teaching creationism in schools, but if you were to start transposing fact with fiction in other areas you might see how ridiculous it is to let ideology dictate course content. - imagine you had schools where they taught that water boiled at 150 degrees celcius and pi = 3, for example. I'm just thankful that whilst such nonsense may fly in America's Red States, it's laughed out of the room in Europe.

    And FYI evolution is taught in Biology class in Catholic schools, which is not exactly surprising given that the Church accepts evolution.


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