Dramatic fall in number failing maths

djpbarry

This isn’t strictly an economics news story, but it’s relevant to many a discussion that’s been had on this forum in recent times:

In a reversal of recent trends, the number failing maths in the Leaving Certificate has fallen dramatically, while record numbers opted to take the subject at higher level.


While the number failing maths this year is still relatively high at close to 4,000, this is down by 20 per cent on recent years.


Last night, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn welcomed the record number of students who took higher level maths in the exam – 22 per per cent of all maths students took the higher paper, compared to 16 per cent last year. Remarkably, only 256 students of the 11,000-plus who took higher maths failed the paper.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0815/breaking1.html

Of course, there are the inevitable cries of marking standards being “dumbed down”, but I personally view the fact that so many more students have opted for the higher level maths paper as being extremely encouraging. It’s also not bad news for Ireland’s image abroad either.

While I am surprised at the magnitude in the change in attitude towards maths (although I’m sure the bonus CAO points played a big part), I’m not surprised at the general reversal in the recent trend of students shying away from the subject. I think the prosperity of the last 10-15 years helped to foster the idea that “difficult” school subjects were not essential for securing course places, jobs and eventually money. Thankfully, it seems this notion has been consigned to the dustbin.

shedweller

I dont know how that compares to other countries but it is still quite high. I recall my school days and am still puzzled at applied maths being only the preserve of honours students. I would have thought a lesser student would benefit from the more visual nature of applied maths.

Dannyboy83

1 in 10 pupils not sitting Irish also

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/huge-increase-in-number-of-students-not-sitting-irish-one-in-ten-children-exempt-from-studying-language-3194484.html

Huge increase in number of students not sitting Irish - one in ten children exempt from studying language

spank_inferno

The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

Which I feel is unfair on native students.
It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.

The maths stats are encouraging though.
I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.

Boskowski

spank_inferno wrote: »

The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

Which I feel is unfair on native students.
It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.

The maths stats are encouraging though.
I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.

You really didn't think that through did you? I mean as opposed to all other subjects where the native English speaker has an advantage?
Also in spite of Poland being one of the larger European countries I would say that we're mostly talking about French, Spanish, German and Italian here.

djpbarry

spank_inferno wrote: »

The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

Which I feel is unfair on native students.
It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.

I don't really understand what you mean by this?

spank_inferno wrote: »

The maths stats are encouraging though.
I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.

Well, as I said above, I'm just happy to see more students tackle the higher level paper.

Sleepy

Great news on both counts imo.

That only 22% of students are taking the higher paper is still a cause for concern but such a large increase shows that the bonus points for Maths and media focus on the lack of prospects for poorly qualified graduates is moving things in the right direction.

Delighted to see less students wasting their time on Irish too. When my daughter begins secondary school I'll be combing the opt-out rules with a fine-tooth comb for a loophole to get her out of it unless it's been dropped as a compulsory subject by then.

blakfact

Terrible News. The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions. Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.

The Public Sector in this country is a disgrace. Dropping standards to "pass" more people is Fraud. The decreased failure rate is attributed to Public Sector Fraud.

Sleepy

blakfact wrote: »

Terrible News. The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions. Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.

The Public Sector in this country is a disgrace. Dropping standards to "pass" more people is Fraud. The decreased failure rate is attributed to Public Sector Fraud.

Any evidence to back that up or just having a rant?

blakfact

Sleepy wrote: »

Any evidence to back that up or just having a rant?

Evidence huh? What other professional body outside of Ireland actually recognise the Leaving Cert as a legitimate qualification? Feck all really. No country has the ability to audit our courses, except Ireland. Conflicts of interest abound.

djpbarry

blakfact wrote: »

The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions.

So if I were to pick a question at random from a leaving cert maths paper, any question, you'd have no trouble at all producing the correct answer?

blakfact wrote: »

Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.

So there are absolutely no Irish students at Oxford or Cambridge? News to me.

blakfact

djpbarry wrote: »

So if I were to pick a question at random from a leaving cert maths paper, any question, you'd have no trouble at all producing the correct answer?
So there are absolutely no Irish students at Oxford or Cambridge? News to me.

That is beside the point. I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam, which is systemic in Irish Education. It's the reason Ireland will never amount to a super or even mid power. Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task. If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.

Hardly surprising after hearing how easy it was to pick up marks from students after the exam.

I would imagine the rise in passes is due to that, rather than any sort of mathematical revolution taking place beneath out noses.

djpbarry

blakfact wrote: »

That is beside the point.

You said a trained chimp could sit the exam – surely, even without preparation, you could answer one question that a chimp could answer?

blakfact wrote: »

I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam...

Not so much in the case of the maths exam, no – it’s relatively easy to ask the same question in a variety of different ways in order to test whether students really understand the material. But, without seeing this year’s exam, I cannot really comment. But then, neither can you.

blakfact wrote: »

Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task.

You basically said that anyone applying to Oxford or Cambridge on the basis of their Leaving cert would be “laughed out the door” – you’re now backtracking from that statement?

blakfact wrote: »

If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.

You’re constructing a straw man – I never said the Leaving cert was particularly respected. But, for the purposes of university entry, it is essentially treated as equivalent to A- and O-levels here in the UK (and vice-versa).

Sleepy

http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/apply/requirements/#irish
http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/international_applicants/international_qualifications/index.html

There you go both the University of Cambridge and University of Oxford accept the Leaving Cert as an entrance exam.

Or are the two most famous universities in the world not good enough for you?

p1akuw47h5r3it

blakfact wrote: »

That is beside the point. I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam, which is systemic in Irish Education. It's the reason Ireland will never amount to a super or even mid power. Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task. If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.

It's taught in Libya also.

Also the Honors Maths paper isn't easy. I'm out of school 3 years and anyone I know who did honours maths basically spent all their study time trying to learn and be able to do it. if it was so easy this wouldn't be the case.

djpbarry

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Hardly surprising after hearing how easy it was to pick up marks from students after the exam.

I heard the reaction was decidedly mixed:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0611/breaking38.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0609/1224317568258.html

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would imagine the rise in passes is due to that, rather than any sort of mathematical revolution taking place beneath out noses.

Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

I heard the reaction was decidedly mixed:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0611/breaking38.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0609/1224317568258.html
Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.

Exactly, it's because of the bonus points.

The question is whether we should applaud this kind of ducking and diving around attempts to completely overhaul the system as some sort of achievement?

Sleepy

How can an increase in students attempting and passing the higher level paper not be an achievement? TBH, I see it as evidence that the bonus points scheme is beginning to yield fruit.

Overhauling the entire educations system will take at least a decade. In the meantime, every piecemeal step we can take that improves it should be taken imo. Especially one like this that was effectively a matter of the stroke of a pen.

ardmacha

When my daughter begins secondary school I'll be combing the opt-out rules with a fine-tooth comb for a loophole to get her out of it unless it's been dropped as a compulsory subject by then.

Are there loopholes for people indoctrinating their children with an anti Irish disposition?

Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.

Teenagers act in herds without any real logic in many cases and parents often do little to advise them. The bonus points lead to people choosing honours maths, but it also creates an environment where doing maths is seen as sensible and eliminates the perverse attitudes that were discouraging people from doing maths or persevering at it.

Sleepy

ardmacha wrote: »

Are there loopholes for people indoctrinating their children with an anti Irish disposition?

I don't know, haven't read the rules yet in the (perhaps overly-optimistic) belief that I may not have to, it'll be 9 years before it's relevant to me.

I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

Besides, at that point the Irish education system will have already had 8 years to indoctrinate her with their grá for the language.

ardmacha

I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.

Dave!

ardmacha wrote: »

Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.

I don't think the poster is suggesting his child play video games while the other children are studying Irish.

Sleepy

Personally, I'd see it as attempting to maximise the educational benefit of my daughter's time in secondary school but we're never going to agree on this subject. I must say that the notion that being against compulsory Irish is anti-education seems a little over-the-top view for even the most militant supporter of the language imo.

Since I'm never going to convince you of my opinion that keeping the language compulsory is both unfair to students without a propensity for a second language and of little to no use for those that do and you're not going to convince me that the study of Irish should be compulsory at secondary level because you (and, admittedly, many others) see it as part of our "cultural identity" why don't we just agree to disagree and not derail this topic further?

djpbarry

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Exactly, it's because of the bonus points.

I couldn’t care less if more students are attempting higher level maths because the Easter bunny told them to – it’s still a positive sign.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The question is whether we should applaud this kind of ducking and diving around attempts to completely overhaul the system as some sort of achievement?

Regardless of whether a complete overhaul is required, such an overhaul is not going to be implemented overnight. It’s going to require small, incremental steps over time. Furthermore, many of those changes are going to be subject-specific. For example, I see a lot more wrong with how languages than I do with how maths is taught. If it were up to me, I’d be tweaking the maths course (and/or how it’s taught) rather than tearing it all up and starting again.

As regards “achievement” – has anyone hailed it as such?

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

I couldn’t care less if more students are attempting higher level maths because the Easter bunny told them to – it’s still a positive sign.
Regardless of whether a complete overhaul is required, such an overhaul is not going to be implemented overnight. It’s going to require small, incremental steps over time. Furthermore, many of those changes are going to be subject-specific. For example, I see a lot more wrong with how languages than I do with how maths is taught. If it were up to me, I’d be tweaking the maths course (and/or how it’s taught) rather than tearing it all up and starting again.

As regards “achievement” – has anyone hailed it as such?

Come on now, rigging the system to make conditions as favorable as possible to people who seem to know the least about the subject is hardly a positive if you examine anything other than failure rates.

djpbarry

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Come on now, rigging the system to make conditions as favorable as possible to people who seem to know the least about the subject is hardly a positive if you examine anything other than failure rates.

The failure rate has most likely only declined because the number sitting the exam has increased - the absolute number failing is still pretty high.

Dannyboy83

Sleepy wrote: »

I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

The irony is that the kids who are forced to do Irish are the ones with the anti-Irish disposition!

As for honours maths - why don't we force everyone to do honours Maths too? LOL :pac:

Sleepy

I think the bonus points are incentive enough. The students who are capable of technical subjects in university are well capable of honours maths/ I struggled with it myself in secondary school but despite being advised to drop to Ordinary Level, I still achieved an honour (just about, a C3) in the subject in the end.

There's no point in forcing subjects on students that are incapable of passing them but when the vast majority of them take as important a subject as Maths at lower or foundation level, we need to incentivise them to do so.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.

WTF? Wanting your child to do something more useful than Irish at school is the opposite of "anti education" in my book. If "basket weaving" was a compulsory subject would you view that in the same light should a parent wish their child not to partake in lessons on it?

Irish is not useful in the real world for 99.9% of school leavers.

doc_17

The fall in numbers failing is partly due to the actual numbers doing the LC this year compared to last year. The failure rate at OL (which was the biggest contributor to the numbers failing) has only dropped from 9.8% last year to 9.5% this year.

viclemronny

shedweller wrote: »

I dont know how that compares to other countries but it is still quite high. I recall my school days and am still puzzled at applied maths being only the preserve of honours students. I would have thought a lesser student would benefit from the more visual nature of applied maths.

It tends to be a subject done externally as an extra subject. Generally, if you're going to do an extra subject it's for the points or because you really really love the subject, both of which would mean that you'll likely do higher level. It's better for a student to do a subject that s/he can sit at higher level if they are looking for extra points and people don't tend to like things they are bad at.

An Coilean

The numbers taking Higher Level Maths has risen by 35% this year and Higher level Irish by 11%

The numbers taking higher level Irish most likely rose because this was the first Leaving cert year that 50% of the marks were allocated to Oral and Aural.

Maths saw a significant rise in numbers taking the higher level paper due to an extra 25 CAO points being allocated to it.
However is it all rosy in the garden? The Project Maths Syllabus being introduced in an effort to make Maths more acessable has been described as an impending disaster by one of the writers of the Text books that will be used to teach it.

spurious

An Coilean wrote: »

The numbers taking Higher Level Maths has risen by 35% this year and Higher level Irish by 11%

The numbers taking higher level Irish most likely rose because this was the first Leaving cert year that 50% of the marks were allocated to Oral and Aural.

Maths saw a significant rise in numbers taking the higher level paper due to an extra 25 CAO points being allocated to it.
However is it all rosy in the garden? The Project Maths Syllabus being introduced in an effort to make Maths more acessable has been described as an impending disaster by one of the writers of the Text books that will be used to teach it.

Sounds like a smart person (not).

I can only judge by our students who were very happy going into their Maths exam in June, stayed most of the time and were pleased with their marks today.

It's not all bad news and paper never refused ink for stories about any sort of change in education, which many moan about by default.

I'm delighted for the kids who did well today in Irish and Maths because of the recent changes.

RichardAnd

I said the following last year and I am about to repeat myself.

Well done to all those who have completed their leaving certs. I wish the best to those who have received the results they wished for but to those who did not, do not worry as there is always another way to achieve an aim. Further, do not let anyone ever tell you that academic performance is the measure of a man (or woman), because it's not.

Brussels Sprout

I think that we'll have to wait and see whether the news today represented an actual improvement in the mathematical abilities in this country or if the insertion of the supposedly easier Project Maths has had an immediate impact.

George Humphries, who has written text books on the new course, was on News Talk on Monday. He felt that the direction of the new syllabus, with it's emphasis on Euclidian geometry, Statistics and Probability (as well as its obsession with worded problems) at the expense of vectors, matrices and certain areas of calculus is essentially dumbing down the subject.

If we hear of a higher than average drop out rate from Science and Engineering courses next few years then we'll have some indicator if his worst fears are coming to pass. (I think only half the course was PM this year so we won't know the full effect of it until at least 18 months time)

K-9

Thread on Irish and Maths merged as there seems to be more discussion on this thread.

Sleepy

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If we hear of a higher than average drop out rate from Science and Engineering courses next few years then we'll have some indicator if his worst fears are coming to pass.

Even back in 1998 when I started my degree, NUIG had to include Maths as a first year subject in Commerce due to the poor standard of maths amongst those entering the course. It was nothing more than a repeat of chunks of the Higher Level Leaving Certificate syllabus.

I'm open to correction but I'd be very, very surprised if a similar module isn't still in place in Commerce, never mind Scientific or Engineering courses.

Kinski

Colour me cynical, but the first year of Project Maths, and there's a "dramatic fall" in the failure rate? I guess they can call it a "resounding success."

djpbarry

Kinski wrote: »

Colour me cynical, but the first year of Project Maths, and there's a "dramatic fall" in the failure rate? I guess they can call it a "resounding success."

People seem to be consistently overlooking the fact that the absolute number failing is still pretty high.

Kinski

djpbarry wrote: »

People seem to be consistently overlooking the fact that the absolute number failing is still pretty high.

Have heard similar cynicism from someone who was actually involved in marking the papers.

ClovisI

Hi all,
I believe that project maths is a good first step in the right direction, but it does not by itself constitute a remedy for the serious problem that is second level maths in Ireland. There should be a new, more challenging syllabus brought in in the future.

As far as I can see we have 3 main problems at the moment:

• Bad attitude towards learning maths - The biggest problem we have, there are two parts to it. Firstly, there is the idea students have that maths is too difficult to even try to understand and they would be better off spending their time learning off algorithms. Secondly, students often feel there is no use to learning maths if they don't want to become engineers or scientists. On the contrary, maths is the best way to give structure to your mind, which is important no matter what they do later.
• The level isn't high enough - The level of second level maths was low enough before the change compared to other countries' like France or Germany. Although it covered almost as many concepts it lagged far behind in terms of the ingenuity required of students. Now students have to be more creative but the syllabus is more restricted.
• Bad teaching - Personally I haven't had much experience with this but I suspect that when it does occur it is due to a cycle of uninterested students (ie. fix the other two problems and you fix this one).

Project Maths sets out to fix the first of these problems, and I'm sure it will - in it's own way. So far, though, it has only aggravated the second which I will now focus on.

Let's take France as an example. French kids study maths in more depth in the same time as Irish kids, yet more ingenuity is required to get the same grade. Why? Well aside from greater motivation, French kids haven't all grown up with the idea that an A is the norm. In most French classes (30 students) only one or two students would consistently get over 80%. This allows third level establishments to differentiate between the good and the very good. In terms of higher/ordinary, students decide in 5th year if they want to put a greater emphasis on scientific or literary subjects, with a different syllabus according to their choice. Science/Literary subjects then also count more or less in their final "points".

We cannot immediately expand the syllabus as students will need at first to get used to thinking creatively with the present PM syllabus. But in a few years it will be time to increase the depth of the course. Won't kids get worse results then, leading to lower CAO points? Yes, at first, but only slightly. And is that such a bad thing? Maintaining the 25 bonus points for Higher level should be enough to keep students interested.

To sum up : I propose that the syllabus be expanded and exam questions go into more depth in some kind of "Project Maths 2", and that this should begin as soon as possible after 2014.

Whether you agree or disagree I would love some opinions on this.
ClovisI

djpbarry

ClovisI wrote: »

French kids study maths in more depth in the same time as Irish kids...

According to OECD rankings, French kids' performance in maths is only marginally better than Irish kids?

sock puppet

Kinski wrote: »

Colour me cynical, but the first year of Project Maths, and there's a "dramatic fall" in the failure rate? I guess they can call it a "resounding success."

The number of A grades in ordinary level maths has fallen dramatically. It could be the case that many of those who previously did ordinary level were capable of sitting the higher level paper but didn't bother because of the perceived amount of work.

edit: what I mean is that it could be mostly down to bonus points.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If we hear of a higher than average drop out rate from Science and Engineering courses next few years then we'll have some indicator if his worst fears are coming to pass. (I think only half the course was PM this year so we won't know the full effect of it until at least 18 months time)

Not really. The makeup of these types of courses is changing significantly anyway because of the recession and the relative resilience of the IT sector. If college grades fall it'll be hard to tell what's causing it.

ClovisI wrote: »

Well aside from greater motivation, French kids haven't all grown up with the idea that an A is the norm. In most French classes (30 students) only one or two students would consistently get over 80%. This allows third level establishments to differentiate between the good and the very good.

Less than 1% of all students achieved an A1 in honours level maths.

Kinski

sock puppet wrote: »

The number of A grades in ordinary level maths has fallen dramatically. It could be the case that many of those who previously did ordinary level were capable of sitting the higher level paper but didn't bother because of the perceived amount of work.

edit: what I mean is that it could be mostly down to bonus points.

Maybe, but the thing I've never understood about bonus points is that it already made much more sense to take Honours over Pass if there was any prospect you wouldn't fail, as a mere D1 at Honours level garners the same points as an A1 at Pass.

Maths may be a special case though, with the perception that the workload at Honours is so much more onerous than any other subject.

Brussels Sprout

sock puppet wrote: »

Less than 1% of all students achieved an A1 in honours level maths.

source?

sock puppet

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

source?

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=st&sc=r12

This year's results are there.

Brussels Sprout

sock puppet wrote: »

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=st&sc=r12

This year's results are there.

Fascinating stuff. I must admit that I thought you had pulled that figure out of your ass. I'm shocked. So even though more people are doing maths the numbers getting A1s has actually been falling dramatically from 629 in 2010 to 486 last year and this year only 345 managed it.

I did an engineering degree in college and went back later on to do a masters in applied maths so through those courses I've met a lot of people who were really good at the subject. It must have completely skewed my impression of the mathematical abilities of the general population though as I would have thought the numbers would have been way higher than that.

astrofool

Kinski wrote: »

Maybe, but the thing I've never understood about bonus points is that it already made much more sense to take Honours over Pass if there was any prospect you wouldn't fail, as a mere D1 at Honours level garners the same points as an A1 at Pass.

Maths may be a special case though, with the perception that the workload at Honours is so much more onerous than any other subject.

It depended if you were relying on maths for points or not. The risk of failing maths meant failing the leaving cert overall, so taking OL was the safwr choice. The bonus points just skewed the probabilities to make it a better choice to go with HL.

Brussels Sprout

I've already talked abou the drop in the numbers of A1s above. Now if you go further down the grades the numbers do increase (A2s rose from 618 to 712, B1s from 824 to 1169, B2s from 947 to 1414 and B3s from 1021 to 1592).
So if we look at just those grades we see an excess from 2011 to 2012 of 1336. 2896 extra students sat the paper this year, so that means the remainder, or 1,560 got a C1 or less.

So what does this all mean? Well I would guess that what is happening is that obviously the 25 bonus points is a game changer. Kids who, in the past would have dropped down to pass and diverted their energies into their other subjects have felt the need to stick up at honours and slog out an average grade. I'd imagine the maths grinds business was booming last year at the lower end of the market (The "please get me a pass" brigade).

I hear that they're going reviewing the 25 points already. I mean if you think about it it's a bit farcical that students who are competing for things like Law, Medicine and Dentistry which all require ordinary level maths, if at all basically must do honours maths since the competition is so fierce to get in. Totally unfair in my opinion. The 3rd level institutes or some body should go through the college courses and specify the ones that actually require mathematical ability e.g. Engineering, Science, Economics, Computer Science.

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on why the numbers of A1s have dropped by 45% in the past 2 years. That's shocking. The only possible reasons I can think of are

(a) This year's exam had some really difficult parts that were unavoidable

or

(b) The excess numbers of students sitting honours diverted teachers attention and dragged down the grades of the top students

djpbarry

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on why the numbers of A1s have dropped by 45% in the past 2 years. That's shocking.

Why? I think you're getting a little hung up on specific grades. Besides, the number of students earning an A1 should be relatively low.