red light camera

jimbobtravis

i stopped my car around a meter past the white line at a red light at blackhall place in dublin. they have installed a red loght camera there at the luas line. i seen the red light and all, but did not stop the car fully behind the white line, but there was still plenty of space ahead of me. as i say the whole car was not over the line at the red light. i seen a white flash at the corner of my eye and looked up and noticed a camera, which i gathered straight away that it took a picture of me breaking a red light. there were many cars at the junction, but i am just wondering is it considered a red light break if the car stops just after the white line.
i know some of ye will think that i am trying to justify it by saying i was barely over the line, but trust me, the line would have been under my seat.

MagicSean

Yes it is.

jimbobtravis

thanks. you just confirmed what i gathered already. as the car is my sisters and not mine, but i am fully insured on it with a full license, how does it work for me to pay it as it will be sent to whoever owns the registration.

seamus

jimbobtravis wrote: »

thanks. you just confirmed what i gathered already. as the car is my sisters and not mine, but i am fully insured on it with a full license, how does it work for me to pay it as it will be sent to whoever owns the registration.

They may not send a fine at all when they review the images (the cameras usually take two pictures to confirm that the vehicle is moving through the red light).

If they do, then check if it incurs penalty points. If it does, then your sister should return notice, nominating you as the guilty party. They will then reissue the penalty notice to you.
If the offence doesn't carry penalty points, then you can just pay it on her behalf.

jimbobtravis

thanks for that information seamus. so its just a waiting game then?

Username99

Jesus where have I been driving, I've never so much as heard of a red light camera, are these common around the country or just around Dublin?

Pkiernan

OP: did any other cars go through the light, or are you certain that you are the person who triggered it?

These cameras tend to be set up to trigger when a car enters a junction after the light has turned red.

If you rolled up to a red light and crossed the line, the camera may have been triggered, but I would be surprised if just being a few feet over the line would cause the camera to take a picture.

If you would, please update us here if you get a ticket.

jimbobtravis

as i did more research with this particular camera on blackhall place i found many articles dating from september 2011 that there was one camera that would be placed on trial and switched between two junctions on the red luas line at blackhall place and queen street.

this is from one such article 'A spokeswoman at Dublin City Council said: "The purpose of this trial is to monitor vehicles breaking red lights at a junction and to ascertain the extent and seriousness of problems and its implications.
this trial would last 12 months.

more information can be found here http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-traffic-trial-to-picture-redlight-jumpers-in-the-act-2866542.html
from my understanding of this article is that these camera's will only be used for the collection of data for the trial period.

jimbobtravis

Pkiernan wrote: »

OP: did any other cars go through the light, or are you certain that you are the person who triggered it?

These cameras tend to be set up to trigger when a car enters a junction after the light has turned red.

If you rolled up to a red light and crossed the line, the camera may have been triggered, but I would be surprised if just being a few feet over the line would cause the camera to take a picture.

If you would, please update us here if you get a ticket.

i was just a few feet across the line and i did see a flash, and yes, there were many cars at the junction on both sides.
i will update if a ticket is received

Procrastastudy

In the space of about 3 weeks there a number of accidents there between the Luas and cars.

It's about time the gardai at the various stations got down to the quays and started to police it or traffic got off their behinds. Pretty much every red light is broken by motorists (going though pedestrian crossings); no turn instructions are widely ignored (again cutting across pedestrian crossings); filters are ignored (guess what - going across pedestrian crossings); there are several retarded lane changes - which the council should he held to account for and finally the speed some people come down here is unbelievable. To be fair to the guards the only thing they do bother with is the speeding - they occasionally have either the van out on Victoria quay or the gun out on the North quays.

jimbobtravis

Procrastastudy wrote: »

In the space of about 3 weeks there a number of accidents there between the Luas and cars.

It's about time the gardai at the various stations got down to the quays and started to police it or traffic got off their behinds. Pretty much every red light is broken by motorists (going though pedestrian crossings); no turn instructions are widely ignored (again cutting across pedestrian crossings); filters are ignored (guess what - going across pedestrian crossings); there are several retarded lane changes - which the council should he held to account for and finally the speed some people come down here is unbelievable. To be fair to the guards the only thing they do bother with is the speeding - they occasionally have either the van out on Victoria quay or the gun out on the North quays.

sorry but what has that got to do with this thread. i understand where u are coming from, but i did not come here for a lecture on what the gardai should or should not be doing. i was seeking information regarding what constitutes a broken red light cause correct me if i am wrong, but isnt that what boards is for??
at the same time i totally agree, but who can actually claim to be a model citizen by adhering to all rules of the roads whether being a driver, cyclist or pedestrian. even some gardai do not obey them!
i recommend you take your concerns regarding this matter to somewhere where you could make a difference and benefit from them, cause you wont make your arguement heard from sitting at your computer and typing it into this boards thread.

Procrastastudy

I think this is a case of doth protest to much.

This is a legal discussions forum and I was adding to the discussion in general about why that camera is there. Pontificating at the same time - yes fair enough.

To be frank if you want this directed at you - you shouldn't have a license if you don't know what breaking a light is or what the rules are regarding a box junction, which - hang on let me look out my window, that is. You would have been blocking the pedestrian crossing at the same junction.

jimbobtravis

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I think this is a case of doth protest to much.

This is a legal discussions forum and I was adding to the discussion in general about why that camera is there. Pontificating at the same time - yes fair enough.

To be frank if you want this directed at you - you shouldn't have a license if you don't know what breaking a light is or what the rules are regarding a box junction, which - hang on let me look out my window, that is. You would have been blocking the pedestrian crossing at the same junction.

the model citizen there!!! get off your high horse and dont judge people!

Procrastastudy

No one was judging anyone the charter specifically does not allow tailored legal advice. Sometimes when people either don't read or don't understand that problems will be dealt with in the abstract. Thats what I was doing - not directing my comments at you. Perhaps they were OT if so sorry.

I am far from a model citizen - I drive, illegally, on my learners permit. Every time I drive somewhere I have to come down on to the quays though that junction. The red traffic light, camera, box junction, pedestrian crossing, luas tracks and red flashing lights in the road have given me a clue each time not to jump the light.

jimbobtravis

Procrastastudy wrote: »

No one was judging anyone the charter specifically does not allow tailored legal advice. Sometimes when people either don't read or don't understand that problems will be dealt with in the abstract. Thats what I was doing - not directing my comments at you. Perhaps they were OT if so sorry.

I am far from a model citizen - I drive, illegally, on my learners permit. Every time I drive somewhere I have to come down on to the quays though that junction. The red traffic light, camera, box junction, pedestrian crossing, luas tracks and red flashing lights in the road have given me a clue each time not to jump the light.

ok, i understand what you are saying, and i know i should have stopped quicker. i accept it is my fault, sure why wouldnt it be?
i attached a jpeg of the junction, and it shows how far i went by the line.

Slide1.JPG

if i was in my own car, i would have just accepted what happened and waited for the fine, if any. since i was driving my sisters car that i am insured on, i wanted to inform her that she will be receiving a fine, but not to worry as the fine is for me.

Procrastastudy

Your still proceeding from the assumption I was having a go at you - I'm wasn't. You query had been answered and a couple of people had posted about not hearing about the camera etc. I was just posting in general - okay pontificating more than informing but the information was there.

OP - I seriously wasn't having a lamp at you - I know you can go over the line fairly easily there thinking its clear and then some asshat chages lane and you have to slam on to avoid being in the box.

Fair play though most well defend post ever - even resorting to googlemaps!

Paulw

jimbobtravis wrote: »

if i was in my own car, i would have just accepted what happened and waited for the fine, if any. since i was driving my sisters car that i am insured on, i wanted to inform her that she will be receiving a fine, but not to worry as the fine is for me.

By the strict letter of the law, if you cross the line you have crossed the line. So, you can tell your sister that she may receive a fine, but she should just direct it to you.

A camera doesn't know the difference between 1ft and 10ft. If it sees a subject cross the line, it should snap a pict.

You could always try to fight it in court and state that you only crossed it by a bit.

Either way, you won't know for sure until a fine arrives .... or doesn't.

murrayp4

I've been flashed by that particular camera when I was coming the other way. It was 7am on a bank hol Monday. Similar to the OP I never noticed it before. Have no idea why it flashed as I wasn't speeding was coming the opposite way the OP was travelling and didn't break or almost break any lights. Didn't hear anything since...(approx. 4 months)

jimbobtravis

murrayp4 wrote: »

I've been flashed by that particular camera when I was coming the other way. It was 7am on a bank hol Monday. Similar to the OP I never noticed it before. Have no idea why it flashed as I wasn't speeding was coming the opposite way the OP was travelling and didn't break or almost break any lights. Didn't hear anything since...(approx. 4 months)

i have read in articles that they are on a 12 month trial period to gather information to ascertain the seriousness of the problems that have arisen with drivers breaking the light due to the luas still being a good bit away. it says that the one camera will be switched from the junction at blackhall and the junction at queen street. why wouldnt they not just one at both? maybe they are not in a position to issue fines yet, and i doubt 4 months can pass before they send a fine out, but then again, i could be wrong.
anyway, its just a waiting game now.

Our man in Havana

That camera is not yet an approved device so no fines can be issued yet.

murrayp4

Funnily enough I was sitting on blackhall place in a parked car last night and saw this camera flashing for no reason, there was no traffic on the road at the time.

whiteonblu

Procrastastudy wrote: »

The red traffic light, camera, box junction, pedestrian crossing, luas tracks and red flashing lights in the road have given me a clue each time not to jump the light.

that would do it right enough

Grolschevik

murrayp4 wrote: »

Funnily enough I was sitting on blackhall place in a parked car last night and saw this camera flashing for no reason, there was no traffic on the road at the time.

Yeah; it's been flashing at nothing every few minutes for days now. Some sort of testing, range-finding, or calibration, I'd guess. As far as I'm aware, it's just a bog-standard fixed speed camera anyway.

Victor

Grolschevik wrote: »

Yeah; it's been flashing at nothing every few minutes for days now. Some sort of testing, range-finding, or calibration, I'd guess. As far as I'm aware, it's just a bog-standard fixed speed camera anyway.

It doesn't check speed.

Procrastastudy

I see one is now affixed on the lights on the James Joyce bridge.

K.Flyer

jimbobtravis wrote: »

.... i seen the red light and all, but did not stop the car fully behind the white line...

...but i am just wondering is it considered a red light break if the car stops just after the white line.

...i know some of ye will think that i am trying to justify it by saying i was barely over the line, but trust me, the line would have been under my seat.

If you look carefully enough you will see small cameras attached to or very close to a lot of the traffic lights around Dublin City.

JimBob, you are supposed to stop before your front wheels cross the line, you say the line ended up almost under your seat even though you saw the red light.
In a driving test that would be an instant fail and is considered breaking a red light apart from possibly being a nuisance to other road users as well as pedestrians.
C'mon the white line is there for a reason.

targus

I was coming up the quays this morning through the junction at Church St. As I drove through the junction towards the four courts I saw a flash, I presumed it was a photographer initially but now I'm thinking was it a red light camera as the lights were Amber as I approached them.

I know there is a camera at the Luas junction but wasn't aware there was one in this location. Anybody any ideas of where these cameras are located around the city's?

Cheers in advance.

MarkAnthony

targus wrote: »

I was coming up the quays this morning through the junction at Church St. As I drove through the junction towards the four courts I saw a flash, I presumed it was a photographer initially but now I'm thinking was it a red light camera as the lights were Amber as I approached them.

I know there is a camera at the Luas junction but wasn't aware there was one in this location. Anybody any ideas of where these cameras are located around the city's?

Cheers in advance.

Generally on traffic lights. I find a pro tip is to obey the lights in all instances.

targus

My question was in relation to camera locations. If I required advice on what to do at a set of traffic lights I would have asked.

MarkAnthony

targus wrote: »

My question was in relation to camera locations. If I required advice on what to do at a set of traffic lights I would have asked.

And I answered that question. They're on top of the traffic light.

targus

MarkAnthony wrote: »

And I answered that question. They're on top of the traffic light.

FYI they are motion sensors as opposed to cameras.

MarkAnthony

AFAIK there is only one near the LUAS due to the inordinate amount of collisions and it's not a fine in the post thing. I'm open to correction ofc.

torrevieja

Myvother half was going down here the lights were green and And turning orange as she went over

What's the story does it have to turn red as you go through or if you go straght through on a red ?

Victor

If you cross the stop line and the light is red, you broke the law.

Fred Swanson

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Paulw

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Is that not for an orange light? Stop unless it is unsafe to do so? While a red means stop.

brian_t

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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But the camera doesn't make any allowence as to whether it was safe to stop or not.

Fred Swanson

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Little CuChulainn

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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You sure you are not confusing red with orange there?

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

If you cross the stop line and the light is red, you broke the law.

That is strictly not true. You are allowed to carry on where stopping would cause an accident.

Paulw wrote: »

Is that not for an orange light? Stop unless it is unsafe to do so? While a red means stop.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

That would be for a court of law to decide.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You sure you are not confusing red with orange there?

The Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 (as amended) say the following for red and amber:-

30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 001, RTS 002, RTS 003, RTS 004 or RTS 013 (referred to in these Regulations as ‘traffic lights’) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 (stop line) where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

No mention of unless not safe to do so on red.

30. (2) A driver of a vehicle approaching traffic lights in which a non-flashing amber light is illuminated, shall not drive the vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 (stop line) when such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights, save when the vehicle is so close to the traffic lights that it cannot safely be stopped before passing the traffic lights or traffic sign number RRM 017.

Not safe to do is only mentioned for amber.



But, any rule in the regulations would not apply where "compliance is not possible as a result of an obstruction to traffic or pedestrians or because of an emergency situation confronting a road user which could not reasonably have been expected or anticipated".

Would preventing an accident be considered an "emergency situation"? It's possible yes, but as Fred points out it would be for a court to decide. I'd say however there would be very few situations where you could succesfully argue that not stoping prevented an accident as usually such a situation rather creates the risk of a potential accident.

RayCun

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who seem to think red is "stop, unless. .." with a long list of things that follow the "unless"

Denny_Crane

Okay I understand people getting confused with amber but is there some confusion what red means or am I picking this up wrong?

Red means stop, stop now, stop even if it means slamming on giving yourself whiplash. The amber is there for the 1% of times you get caught a bit short and is essentially a stop signal.

Now do I frequently 'push it a bit' like about 40% of people out there, of course - please tell be there aren't actually people who think that's the right thing to do.

Shannon757

So I take it the OP didn't get a fine?

Denny_Crane

Shannon757 wrote: »

So I take it the OP didn't get a fine?

I must have jumped that light on a weekly if not daily basis. It's only there for the loon bags that hit the LUAS.

Victor

Denny_Crane wrote: »

I must have jumped that light on a weekly if not daily basis. It's only there for the loon bags that hit the LUAS.

**cough**

Denny_Crane

Victor wrote: »

**cough**

The road literally lights up. It's not as if you can't know when a LUAS is coming. I concede you're right though and I've been behaving since I got done at 36.5MPH beating James May's record.

mynamejeff

as far as i know those cameras are for traffic monitoring and not enforcement


so relax your kacks

Denny_Crane

mynamejeff wrote: »

as far as i know those cameras are for traffic monitoring and not enforcement


so relax your kacks

No so much that you crash into the LUAS though, seemed to happen about once every 6 months at one point. That and the collisions with the James Joyce Bridge.

mynamejeff

Denny_Crane wrote: »

No so much that you crash into the LUAS though, seemed to happen about once every 6 months at one point. That and the collisions with the James Joyce Bridge.

yes but my point is that they arent like gatso camaras . has any one gotten a letter and fine for breaking a red light ?

Denny_Crane

mynamejeff wrote: »

yes but my point is that they arent like gatso camaras . has any one gotten a letter and fine for breaking a red light ?

No one ever if the driving on the Quays is anything to go by.

mynamejeff

so op has nothing to worry about