Spirituality & The Catholic Church

Northclare

How come some Priests are all for Spiritual Growth and are non judgemental of new age spirituality,because lets face it,its more practical and accessible.

And some people in the Christianity forum think they can knock new age spirituality.

A priest once gave me Anam Cara and said it's a great book,another priest told a Gay friend of mine take no notice of the churches stance on homosexuality and suggested if he doesn't trust the church try something else.

Lets face it there's more than the Catholic way to God.

There's controversy coming up nearly every week now about the Catholic Church....how come the Orthodox church doesn't have this hassle ?

Onesimus

There's controversy coming up nearly every week now about the Catholic Church....how come the Orthodox church doesn't have this hassle

Because they are not the true Church, thats why.

Northclare

Onesimus wrote: »

There's controversy coming up nearly every week now about the Catholic Church....how come the Orthodox church doesn't have this hassle

Because they are not the true Church, thats why.

Who are not the true church ?

Onesimus

Northclare wrote: »

Who are not the true church ?

The Orthodox or the Protestant churches.

Let me put it this way. When I was beginning my conversion back home one thing that played a part in that conversion is that, I noticed the Catholic Church is the most hated Church in the whole world. This is why I stay close to her.

Certainly the devil has a hatred of anyone who believes in Christ but he has a special focus on the true Church and one cannot help but notice that. So he focuses his attention on this one, he attacks from the inside and outside.

Northclare

So in effect what your saying is,the adversary is doing it's best to destroy the Catholic church by corruption and evil etc

He is doing a great Job or a bad job depending on how you look at it.

I can see the RC Church in some sort of battle,whether its internal or external it will fall apart.

I think things will revert back to the teachings of the old Christianity the humble kind,they don't need all that gluttony,greed,lust.....

The RC church needs a total clean out and start again.

skooterblue2

I think the Catholic church does enough without the help of the Quare fella. If they had some openess and accountability, the devil so to speak would be less likely to come knocking.

If ordinary lay people and priests spoke up and said this isnt good enough we want some one held accountable. They are removed from the protection of the Church and can deal with the civil authorities by them selves. Classic example is Fr. Patrick Ryan.

Some people think Canon law is some sort of law that cannot be crossed in this country.

skooterblue2

What you need is a Tribunal where every priest is called at a Dicosese level and you get a chance to publicly confess. If it is genuine that you filed reports and left things in the hands of the civil authorities then you are removed from doubt. But if you with held information and interfered with the civil power you will be removed from the clergy and have to answer questions yourself to the Civil power.

Then guys coming in will have to be properly vetted. Such as see a Psychiatrist (anyone who this is OTT, its standard for DF Officers and Guards), proper background checks, its the only way to reduce the risks

Onesimus

Northclare wrote: »

So in effect what your saying is,the adversary is doing it's best to destroy the Catholic church by corruption and evil etc

He is doing a great Job or a bad job depending on how you look at it.

I can see the RC Church in some sort of battle,whether its internal or external it will fall apart.

I think things will revert back to the teachings of the old Christianity the humble kind,they don't need all that gluttony,greed,lust.....

The RC church needs a total clean out and start again.

Oh no. The enemy knows he cannot destroy the true Church of Christ. Christ has already promised us this. But he will try to take as many souls as he can with him by leading them in all sorts of directions instead of the Narrow path and ark of salvation which is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Knowing he cannot destroy the true Church of Christ does not change the fact that he has a hatred for for us all and the true Church. A hatred that is beyond our ability to understand. Not all the most hating men in the world put together would be a match for his hatred that he has for us and to lead us down the road to perdition ( spiritual ruin).

There is a holy war right now going on all around us between the angels of Christ and those of darkness that the world does not see, but feels the effects of it only. and yet is ignorant to it all. Blind and deaf, we walk in ignorance to it. and St.Augustine said that the worst temptation is not to be tempted at all. What does this mean?

one of St.Francis of Assisis followers had the gift of seeing and speaking with his guardian angel. One day the guardian angel gave him a vision of a fellow brother who was praying and trying to change his ways. around this brother were 15,000 demons or more all prowling around him discussing what was the best tactic to bring him down.

he then took him to the local pub in town and showed to him all the people in the pub, outside the pub was just one demon.

the brother asked, how come all these people and only one demon? yet my fellow brother had 15,000 around him? the guardian angel explained because these people are already blind and lost and the demons don't need to really tempt them at all. They willingly walk in the footsteps of the beast and think that their life is grand and that they lead a happy life in what they do.

Its the same with the true Church. He has a special desire to see it reduced and go to ruin so that he can destroy many souls in the process and prevent them from getting to Heaven.

newmug

Northclare wrote: »

Lets face it there's more than the Catholic way to God.

No there isn't. It is the single, ultimate, one and only way.

skooterblue2

Righttttt! Thats sorted that then.

15,000 demons? Holy war? I am there!!

skooterblue2

newmug wrote: »

No there isn't. It is the single, ultimate, one and only way.

Lets take Chang. Chang is an illiterate peasant farmer living in Siberia who still thinks the Tsar runs Russia. He spends his day looking after and milking his goats and goes back to his wife in his cabin. He has no formal education and only understands his own world. But he lives a good life, doesnt beat his wife, loves his kids and gives a fair rate of exchange in bartering his milk and cheese.

Is this guys soul doomed because nobody bothered to go past mosquito infested swamps around Siberian and brave the harsh weather?

Slav

Northclare wrote: »

How come some Priests are all for Spiritual Growth and are non judgemental of new age spirituality,because lets face it,its more practical and accessible.

And some people in the Christianity forum think they can knock new age spirituality.

A priest once gave me Anam Cara and said it's a great book,another priest told a Gay friend of mine take no notice of the churches stance on homosexuality and suggested if he doesn't trust the church try something else.

Lets face it there's more than the Catholic way to God.

Christianity, Catholicism including, is not about spirituality but about Christ. Let's face it, if someone offers some sort of spirituality instead of Christ then they have nothing to do with Christianity.

There's controversy coming up nearly every week now about the Catholic Church....how come the Orthodox church doesn't have this hassle ?

Unfortunately, it does. Maybe not to that extent but still plenty.

Onesimus wrote: »

Let me put it this way. When I was beginning my conversion back home one thing that played a part in that conversion is that, I noticed the Catholic Church is the most hated Church in the whole world. This is why I stay close to her.

Interesting logic. With this approach it's really a miracle you didn't end up with Jehovah Witnesses or some totalitarian sect. Compared to them RCC is an example of total admiration.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Lets take Chang. Chang is an illiterate peasant farmer living in Siberia who still thinks the Tsar runs Russia.

Yes, there is plenty of Chinese immigrants in Siberia now but they are all literate. They are rarely farmers though, more like in retail or wholesale business.

Snappy Smurf

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I think the Catholic church does enough without the help of the Quare fella. If they had some openess and accountability, the devil so to speak would be less likely to come knocking.

If ordinary lay people and priests spoke up and said this isnt good enough we want some one held accountable. They are removed from the protection of the Church and can deal with the civil authorities by them selves. Classic example is Fr. Patrick Ryan.

Some people think Canon law is some sort of law that cannot be crossed in this country.

You are living in the past. RCC is the safest place in Ireland today for kids. We have the best child protection policies and practice.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

What you need is a Tribunal where every priest is called at a Dicosese level and you get a chance to publicly confess. If it is genuine that you filed reports and left things in the hands of the civil authorities then you are removed from doubt. But if you with held information and interfered with the civil power you will be removed from the clergy and have to answer questions yourself to the Civil power.

Then guys coming in will have to be properly vetted. Such as see a Psychiatrist (anyone who this is OTT, its standard for DF Officers and Guards), proper background checks, its the only way to reduce the risks

Why should people publicly denounce themselves of past mistakes or even crimes? Isn't it for the police to investigate crimes?

Again, you're living in the past. New entrants to seminary are vetted and psychologically examined.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Lets take Chang. Chang is an illiterate peasant farmer living in Siberia who still thinks the Tsar runs Russia. He spends his day looking after and milking his goats and goes back to his wife in his cabin. He has no formal education and only understands his own world. But he lives a good life, doesnt beat his wife, loves his kids and gives a fair rate of exchange in bartering his milk and cheese.

Is this guys soul doomed because nobody bothered to go past mosquito infested swamps around Siberian and brave the harsh weather?

Chang is a Chinese name and I don't think the frozen wastes of Siberia are covered in mozzi-infested swamps.

Benny_Cake

Northclare wrote: »

How come some Priests are all for Spiritual Growth and are non judgemental of new age spirituality,because lets face it,its more practical and accessible.

And some people in the Christianity forum think they can knock new age spirituality.

A priest once gave me Anam Cara and said it's a great book,another priest told a Gay friend of mine take no notice of the churches stance on homosexuality and suggested if he doesn't trust the church try something else.

Ok, I'm no longer a practising Catholic, but I fail to see how New Age (a vague term) is more "practical". Any priest worth his salt would believe in nurturing spiritual growth. I also think you are doing John O'Donohue a disservice by lumping him in as just another new age writer.

Northclare wrote: »

Lets face it there's more than the Catholic way to God.

There's controversy coming up nearly every week now about the Catholic Church....how come the Orthodox church doesn't have this hassle ?

Pussy Riot? The reason you here far more about controversy in the Catholic Church is because you live in a country where it is the largest religious body. As Slav says, Orthodox Christianity has it's own problems, as does any church.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post to be honest.

Northclare

I'm now starting to realize how tha RC church fills naive people with fear and guilt etc

The more I read these RC posts the more I realize why it's all messed up and people are walking away, I cant believe some people still live in the dark ages its really sad

homer911

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Lets take Chang. Chang is an illiterate peasant farmer living in Siberia who still thinks the Tsar runs Russia. He spends his day looking after and milking his goats and goes back to his wife in his cabin. He has no formal education and only understands his own world. But he lives a good life, doesnt beat his wife, loves his kids and gives a fair rate of exchange in bartering his milk and cheese.

Is this guys soul doomed because nobody bothered to go past mosquito infested swamps around Siberian and brave the harsh weather?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209:41&version=NIV

Northclare

Exactly and what he said to the thief on the cross pretty much sums up the fear that's dished out here is Evil

Jesus is a good guy he would never tell poor misfortunes they will burn in hell if they don't follow what the gangsters tell them to follow..

homer911

Northclare wrote: »

How come some Priests are all for Spiritual Growth and are non judgemental of new age spirituality,because lets face it,its more practical and accessible.

For the Christian, there is a world of difference between Spiritual Growth and new age spirituality - a bit like arriving at a T-Junction and choosing which way to turn.

All Christians aim to grow spiritually by studying the Bible, praying, fasting, having fellowship with other christians and contributing to the life of their christian and non-christian communities. The bible warns against "new age" spirituality (which is in fact as old as the hills!)

If you are being told otherwise, you are being misdirected, and those giving such direction will be judged harshly by God in the fullness of time

Northclare

As for someone who said something about my comment on John Donohue,well I haven't said anything negative about him...

Northclare

homer911 wrote: »

Northclare wrote: »

How come some Priests are all for Spiritual Growth and are non judgemental of new age spirituality,because lets face it,its more practical and accessible.

For the Christian, there is a world of difference between Spiritual Growth and new age spirituality - a bit like arriving at a T-Junction and choosing which way to turn.

All Christians aim to grow spiritually by studying the Bible, praying, fasting, having fellowship with other christians and contributing to the life of their christian and non-christian communities. The bible warns against "new age" spirituality (which is in fact as old as the hills!)

If you are being told otherwise, you are being misdirected, and those giving such direction will be judged harshly by God in the fullness of time

Well maybe your right

homer911

Northclare wrote: »

Exactly and what he said to the thief on the cross pretty much sums up the fear that's dished out here is Evil

Jesus is a good guy he would never tell poor misfortunes they will burn in hell if they don't follow what the gangsters tell them to follow..

You need to take care to understand that passage and its context. Jesus indicated that we are all in fact guilty, but if our guilt has not been revealed to us, we wont be judged by it. Once our guilt is revealed, we become responsible for it, and will be judged accordingly. God uses all sorts of people to further his kingdom, none of them are perfect. While your choice of words is confrontational and extreme, the truth of God's word remains. The evangelical christian message is one of love and forgiveness, (and also one of ultimate judgment) but not one of threats, which simply dont work in leading people to Christ

Northclare

I take it homer your not Catholic then.

So are you saying if we realize were sinners,become born again through Christ well be saved,but that's if we take a personal inventory admit were wrong say sorry,try and behave as best we can....

Then were onto salvation

Benny_Cake

Northclare wrote: »

As for someone who said something about my comment on John Donohue,well I haven't said anything negative about him...

That was me. I realise you weren't saying anything negative about him, but I disagree that he was a new age writer, he is much more in the tradition of Christian mysticism. Interesting guy, I heard an interview with him done at the Greenbelt festival a few years ago and he seemed like a lovely man - sorely missed. My objection to New Age philosophy is it's tendency to grab random bits and pieces from other religious traditions - it lacks depth. If others choose to walk that path good luck to them.

homer911

Northclare wrote: »

I take it homer your not Catholic then.

So are you saying if we realize were sinners,become born again through Christ well be saved,but that's if we take a personal inventory admit were wrong say sorry,try and behave as best we can....

Then were onto salvation

No, I'm not Catholic, but being evangelical about our faith, and being born again is what being a christian is all about, (and its not necesarily a road-to-Damascus type experience)

I doubt if any christian has formulaically followed steps a through z as you seem to put it - recognising our own sinfulness, and God's grace to forgive us if we ask for it, with a willingness to change, is what becomming a christian is about, the rest is spiritual growth

Northclare

I like your post thanks Homer it good to read that approach to Christianity

Slav

homer911 wrote: »

You need to take care to understand that passage and its context. Jesus indicated that we are all in fact guilty, but if our guilt has not been revealed to us, we wont be judged by it. Once our guilt is revealed, we become responsible for it, and will be judged accordingly.

Does the passage really say that? I always thought John 9:13-41 is completely about something else and not about who's guilty and who'll be judged. John 9:41 does not even have the words guilt and judgement...

skooterblue2

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

RCC is the safest place in Ireland today for kids. We have the best child protection policies and practice.


Why should people publicly denounce themselves of past mistakes or even crimes? Isn't it for the police to investigate crimes?

Again, you're living in the past. New entrants to seminary are vetted and psychologically examined.


Chang is a Chinese name and I don't think the frozen wastes of Siberia are covered in mozzi-infested swamps.

Some people Slappy might have issues with quality control issues. Previous history is something that tends to linger in peoples minds. You dont see too many Lada Rivas on the streets do you compared to Toyota Corollas?

The only people who are afraid of the law and Tribunals are the ones fleeing the law (Burke, Lawlor) the only ones clambering out of their death beds to get there, are men who want the truth on record (James Gogarty). One clean sweep would allow the church to to start to rebuild community relations.

It is only in the past couple of years that these new recruiting practices have been introduced. Also the Chinese races are expanding westward into Mongolia and beyond. My friends have done the London-Mongol rally and they came across mosquito infested swamps on the periphery of Siberia in the summer. It was one of the most unpleasant experiences in their lives, they said.

homer911

Slav wrote: »

Does the passage really say that? I always thought John 9:13-41 is completely about something else and not about who's guilty and who'll be judged. John 9:41 does not even have the words guilt and judgement...

The passage is specifically about spiritual blindness - in this case Jesus is talking about the pharisees and their refusal to see the truth, while claiming that Jesus is a sinner and not the messiah - ie those who have a high opinion of their own wisdom will become blind to the truth, reject God's grace and their guilt will remain. Clealy we will all face judgment, but those who reject God's grace will be judged guilty.

Verse 39 talks about judgment and 41 about guilt. As a minimum vs 35-41 should be read together

I cant claim to be a biblical scholar, but thats certainly what I draw out of this passage - happy to be corrected

Northclare

It's like when it was said turn the other cheek,that meant walk away not get a slap on the other side.

One has to be Esoteric to understand Jesus

Slav

homer911 wrote: »

The passage is specifically about spiritual blindness - in this case Jesus is talking about the pharisees and their refusal to see the truth, while claiming that Jesus is a sinner and not the messiah - ie those who have a high opinion of their own wisdom will become blind to the truth

Yes, more or less what I thought but I still don't understand how this:

if our guilt has not been revealed to us, we wont be judged by it

is derived from it and how in general the passage is related to that illiterate Chinese farmer Chang from Siberia, the loyal subject of His Majesty Tsar Vladimir I of all Russia.

Verse 39 talks about judgment and 41 about guilt.

I'm not sure. I don't think judgement in 39 is meant to be that final judgement as it's generally understood by Western Christian theology and what was probably meant in that Cheng example. As I understand it Jesus said that he has come to this world for judgement, so it's not the judgement of the second coming but the judgement of incarnation: people are judged by meeting the truth. In this case the blind starts seeing and those who considered themselves sighted being confronted by the truth revealed themselves to be blind. Both the blind and the pharisees had been judged already by mere presence of Christ among them but it was not that Final Judgement.

41 does not mention guilt unless we consider 'sin' and 'guilt' to be the exact synonyms.

I cant claim to be a biblical scholar

Neither can I!

happy to be corrected

me too!

Slav

Northclare wrote: »

One has to be Esoteric to understand Jesus

So the message of Jesus was to be understood only by esoterics (small group of initiated or special by definition) and that's why he sent the apostles "to all the world to proclaim the gospel to all creation"?

Northclare

Well Ahem maybe I'm wrong.

But who is right there's so many interpreters,maybe the messages come across in different ways,but the catholic church is by far the furthest from the real Christian message.

The Catholic Church is more like Disney land or Coca Cola compared to the Evangelical churches which are more like spring water....

Benny_Cake

Northclare wrote: »

Well Ahem maybe I'm wrong.

But who is right there's so many interpreters,maybe the messages come across in different ways,but the catholic church is by far the furthest from the real Christian message.

The Catholic Church is more like Disney land or Coca Cola compared to the Evangelical churches which are more like spring water....

In what way? The Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches have a wealth of history and tradition which lend themselves to very rich expressions, particularly in sacred art and music, but all that comes with a degree of historical baggage. Evangelical churches are a more modern expression of Christian faith so they tend to be able to respond more quickly to modern needs (their decentralised nature helps too), but can sometimes be a little too quick to dismiss ancient traditions. Anglicans and Lutherans fall somewhere in between. What I'm saying is, all are trying to serve Christ in their own way, and all fall short in many aspects, but Christianity wouldn't be where it is today without all of these people.

There have been disagreements throughout the history of Christianity, but the core has remained surprisingly consistent - take the Apostles and Nicene Creed for example. There is far more that unites than divides the various churches which is just another why sectarianism is so tragic.

Northclare

Ok Benny thanks,I read John Moriartys book Serious Sounds he went from Catholic to somewhere like me where he questioned a lot of stuff etc and went back to Jesus, his writing is supposed to be comparable to Bishop Berkley and some of the Rhineland Mystics.

Anyway I'm not trying.to be a smart ass even though it might appear that way at times.

All I need is a clear picture in some way.

Thanks everyone, for your help I'm off now for a surf I hear there's a good swell out there on the beaches in Clare

God be with ye

newmug

Northclare wrote: »

So are you saying if we realize were sinners,become born again through Christ well be saved,but that's if we take a personal inventory admit were wrong say sorry,try and behave as best we can....

Then were onto salvation

You've basically summed up Catholicism there!

totus tuus

Michael Voris pretty much sums it up on what needs to be done with the 'elite' in the Church.