Olympics Post Mortem

downthemiddle

Some very interesting comments from the RTE panel in particular Ailis McSweeney with plenty of support from David Gillick.
No continuity, 5 high performance directors in 6 years.
"The best prepared Irish team ever". How would the people who made that comment know as they hadn't been in contact with the athletes?
Gillick made the point he didn't even know about some of the support structures in place until he came home.
The lack of full time coaches and the failure to work with other sports were also raised.

darrenoconaill

We've been listening to these same postmortems since god was a child. Expect to be hearing them again after Rio in 4 years time. Nothing changes.

Pisco Sour

The performance has to be better than Beijing. We have had the following top 16 performances:

1) Heffernan - 50k Walk
2) Heffernan - 20k Walk
3) Loughnane - 20k Walk
4) 4x400m Relay
5) Britton - 10000m
6) O'Rourke - 100m H
7) Cuddihy 400m

This is certainly better than in Beijing, where I do not recall as many top 16 performances (Heff, Olive, Hesh but who else? McGettigan maybe)

Don't get me wrong, there have been a lot of disasters in these games (Pena, Hesh, Ryan, Cragg, Len) but it hasn't been all doom and gloom at all, once you take a step back and look at things.

Having our outstanding youngsters competing would have helped us hugely of course. Gregan and English must be tearing their hair out, and how can the OCI just have Jessie Barr sitting up in the stand rather than have her on the track for the hurdles?

K_1

Much as I dislike Jerry Kiernans opinions at times, he had some very good points on radio 1 today and again this evening about developing the sport in schools, searching for talent, and concentrating where we can be competitive - mainly 800, 1500 and field events.

rom

Heffernan has been the standout performance and I hope to see him again as normal on my running route in Cork as I have for years(some of it walking for me,only running recently). Rob is a god and what inspires me. The hard work I see him doing makes my training seem little. I hope mad len comes back as I identify so much with him on a personal level.

Royal Legend

I think there needs to be a putting together of brains to search for and then deciding how to develop talent. I have a lot of thoughts on the subject and have listened to a lot of the comments out of the UK. I am also lead to believe that a high percentage of GB medal winners came from private or fee paying schools as the facilities were of a higher standard.
They have put a lot of effort into cycling and rowing, one of the projects they undertook a few years ago was to look for girls over 5' 10" at 14 and 15 years of age to try out for the rowing program, as these girls may end up over 6' and have a larger armspan.
We have a lot of talent in this country and a lot of talented coaches, these people need to come together and look at how we weed out potential talent for a select number of sports that we can compete at.
GB also done well at the likes of Taekwondo, these as well as boxing, rowing and field sports are areas we can achieve.

thirtyfoot

darrenoconaill wrote: »

We've been listening to these same postmortems since god was a child. Expect to be hearing them again after Rio in 4 years time. Nothing changes.

If we all have this attitude, nothing will change.

Its a poor Games for us but not a surprise. 3/4 months ago the writing was on the wall. As Ailis said, the athletes need to take personal responsibility, you can't keep blaming the 'system' for 100% of the ills.

Gillick made a good point, its all our fault. We all need to look forward. If everyone tries to make a difference that changes things instead of moaning, then change will happen.

There are many things that most of us can't affect. But there are ways that we all can make a difference.

Two questions for everyone, 1) what things would you like to change in athletics in Ireland and 2) what can you do to effect this change.

Pisco Sour

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Two questions for everyone, 1) what things would you like to change in athletics in Ireland Send outstanding B-Standard athletes like Gregan, English and Barr to Olympic Games, send athletes who have reached qualification standards for major championships such as Chesser and Murphy to such events and 2) what can you do to effect this change.Nothing, let's be honest!

.

K_1

My Opinion on some measures that could/should be taken:

- As David Gillick said, more integration of training and coaching, e.g. walkers, marathon runners and triathletes.
- Proper guidelines to allow a b standard athlete to go, based on no. of times the standard is achieved, how close to A standard, age of athlete.
- More focus on field events at schools level. (not as opposed to track but as opposed to PE teachers giving kids a basketball/soccer ball and telling them to get on with it).
- Proper medical assessment - don't give injured athletes a choice to run if its clear they're not fit (or swimmers for that matter).
- Tighten standards - possibly only allow standards run in the olympic year, or if a standard achieved in previous year then at least B standard required in the Olympic year.
- Try poach athletes from traditional team sports (gaa, soccer, rugby) instead of the other way around :P . May work well in Gaa with underachieving counties!
- Copy everything done in boxing in the last 9 years! :P
- Get Br O'Connell to coach here!

thirtyfoot

Pisco Sour wrote: »

.

So you are firmly into moan but do nothing camp. You are talking about the thin end of the wedge, short term and populist answer. We need more creativity. Blank canvas, try again.

thirtyfoot

K_1 wrote: »

My Opinion on some measures that could/should be taken:

- As David Gillick said, more integration of training and coaching, e.g. walkers, marathon runners and triathletes.
- Proper guidelines to allow a b standard athlete to go, based on no. of times the standard is achieved, how close to A standard, age of athlete.
- More focus on field events at schools level. (not as opposed to track but as opposed to PE teachers giving kids a basketball/soccer ball and telling them to get on with it).
- Proper medical assessment - don't give injured athletes a choice to run if its clear they're not fit (or swimmers for that matter).
- Tighten standards - possibly only allow standards run in the olympic year, or if a standard achieved in previous year then at least B standard required in the Olympic year.
- Try poach athletes from traditional team sports (gaa, soccer, rugby) instead of the other way around :P . May work well in Gaa with underachieving counties!
- Copy everything done in boxing in the last 9 years! :P
- Get Br O'Connell to coach here!

That's a good start, some good discussion points there and not the obvious ones like your approach on standards.

MrCreosote

As it's an Olympics post-mortem thread, and the ultimate aim in the Olympics is medalling, the best approach would be:

Slash funding for Irish Athletics
Pump the cash into sports with a high likelihood of medalling- rowing, sailing, canoe/kayak etc. The British team consciously targetted track cycling for this reason- small number of competing countries, good payback from technological advances and lots of medals on offer.

Forget about T&F being the flagship sport at the Games. People are happy with medals- give them some!

Pisco Sour

MrCreosote wrote: »

As it's an Olympics post-mortem thread, and the ultimate aim in the Olympics is medalling, the best approach would be:

Slash funding for Irish Athletics
Pump the cash into sports with a high likelihood of medalling- rowing, sailing, canoe/kayak etc. The British team consciously targetted track cycling for this reason- small number of competing countries, good payback from technological advances and lots of medals on offer.

Forget about T&F being the flagship sport at the Games. People are happy with medals- give them some!

That's a load of crap. Athletics gets piss all funding as it is. If you want more money pumped into the above sports then have a look at the stupid amount Horse Racing and GAA get, sports which do not need that level of funding. Don't steal from the poor to feed the poor.

Pisco Sour

thirtyfoot wrote: »

So you are firmly into moan but do nothing camp. You are talking about the thin end of the wedge, short term and populist answer. We need more creativity. Blank canvas, try again.

How about the AAI try to work with the GAA with regards sharing of personel and skills right from Under 9's all the way up. The GAA was originally set up to support athletics, both organisations have skills that can benefit each other. It works perfectly well in the USA with regards American Footballers and sprinters at high school level. Rather than try poach people from GAA, why not work with them? The problem in Ireland is that most sporting organisations see themselves as competitors. It doesn't have to be that way.

average_runner

Pisco Sour wrote: »

thirtyfoot wrote: »

So you are firmly into moan but do nothing camp. You are talking about the thin end of the wedge, short term and populist answer. We need more creativity. Blank canvas, try again.

How about the AAI try to work with the GAA with regards sharing of personel and skills right from Under 9's all the way up. The GAA was originally set up to support athletics, both organisations have skills that can benefit each other. It works perfectly well in the USA with regards American Footballers and sprinters at high school level. Rather than try poach people from GAA, why not work with them? The problem in Ireland is that most sporting organisations see themselves as competitors. It doesn't have to be that way.

Alot of things needs to change. Gaa have a great setup. Summer camps during peak season etc.

Now look at our sport. Peak season and no summer camps that I see. Community games down home used to be in wexford gaa park. This was a big day out. Happens no more.

We need to work with gaa instead of compete against them.

shels4ever

Pisco Sour wrote: »

That's a load of crap. Athletics gets piss all funding as it is. If you want more money pumped into the above sports then have a look at the stupid amount Horse Racing and GAA get, sports which do not need that level of funding. Don't steal from the poor to feed the poor.

If you want medals in the olympics you need to pick the events for medals. If this thread is about pure olympic medals money needs to go into sports with a greater chance of medals. Sailing , horses, track cycling .

rom

I see the secondary school next door to me do PE some days on the way to work. It consists of them going for a walk. wtf ?

thirtyfoot

MrCreosote wrote: »

As it's an Olympics post-mortem thread, and the ultimate aim in the Olympics is medalling, the best approach would be:

Slash funding for Irish Athletics
Pump the cash into sports with a high likelihood of medalling- rowing, sailing, canoe/kayak etc. The British team consciously targetted track cycling for this reason- small number of competing countries, good payback from technological advances and lots of medals on offer.

Forget about T&F being the flagship sport at the Games. People are happy with medals- give them some!

This is an athletics forum. How will not focusing in athletics be good for athletics?

Pisco is correct, Athletics is the Olympics.

thirtyfoot

Pisco Sour wrote: »

How about the AAI try to work with the GAA with regards sharing of personel and skills right from Under 9's all the way up. The GAA was originally set up to support athletics, both organisations have skills that can benefit each other. It works perfectly well in the USA with regards American Footballers and sprinters at high school level. Rather than try poach people from GAA, why not work with them? The problem in Ireland is that most sporting organisations see themselves as competitors. It doesn't have to be that way.

Interesting concept. Would need a lot of strong leadership. Most of the best athletics coaches in Ireland earn their crust off the GAA as it is. The seasons are in direct competition though. Rugby could be a better link. Backs for track, forward for field maybe.

thirtyfoot

shels4ever wrote: »

If you want medals in the olympics you need to pick the events for medals. If this thread is about pure olympic medals money needs to go into sports with a greater chance of medals. Sailing , horses, track cycling .

In a post mortem to see how we can improve athletics, diverting money and time away from it is not a goo outcome for athletics.

the_real_lamp

I agree to some extent with Jerry ananlysis that the field events and 800m and 1500m ( I assume racewalking is a given) but still think there is potential in 100, 110 and 400mh hurdles. However we are let down by the level of coaching in schools. GAA and Soccer are remain the focus (rugby in fee paying schools), and with PE now needing around 500 (?) in the CAO, we will end up with academically minded PE teachers and a lot less male PE teachers.

thirtyfoot

A couple mention GAA. That's built in the strength of the club. That would be a good start but would take a long, long time. We have 20 or so great juvenile clubs and 6 or so great senior clubs. If in 5 years that was doubled and in 10 doubled again that would be 80 and 24. That would widen the base of the pyramid of athletes and coaches.

thirtyfoot

the_real_lamp wrote: »

I agree to some extent with Jerry ananlysis that the field events and 800m and 1500m ( I assume racewalking is a given) but still think there is potential in 100, 110 and 400mh hurdles. However we are let down by the level of coaching in schools. GAA and Soccer are remain the focus (rugby in fee paying schools), and with PE now needing around 500 (?) in the CAO, we will end up with academically minded PE teachers and a lot less male PE teachers.

I think focusing on certain events is a good idea. Look at events where athletes, like Irish athletes can excel, and maybe focus on those.

MrCreosote

Pisco Sour wrote: »

That's a load of crap. Athletics gets piss all funding as it is. If you want more money pumped into the above sports then have a look at the stupid amount Horse Racing and GAA get, sports which do not need that level of funding. Don't steal from the poor to feed the poor.

Athletics got 2 million from the sports council last year, GAA got 3 million. Hardly a stupid amount for a sport that is WAY less popular. It's stealing from the unsuccessful to feed the successful

thirtyfoot wrote: »

This is an athletics forum. How will not focusing in athletics be good for athletics?

Pisco is correct, Athletics is the Olympics.

The thread is not about the good of athletics. And it's a very one-eyed view to narrow the Olympics down to a single sport, even if it's the one you enjoy yourself. This is why people continue to complain about Ireland's performance at these Olympics despite it being our most successful since 1956.

Funding Elite athletics is a black hole. There has been no return for the investment. Most of this is not the athletes' fault, but throwing more money at the problem is an utter waste. Especially when there are more deserving sports around. It also sucks out the funding out of nonelite athletics

My own solution would be to split up AI into two new bodies- one for recreational, nonelite athletics who keep or increase their funding. One for elite athletics who get the level of funding their current success deserves- a tiny fraction of what they now have.

shels4ever

thirtyfoot wrote: »

In a post mortem to see how we can improve athletics, diverting money and time away from it is not a goo outcome for athletics.

My point was that if it was only about olympic medals I would believe the same as you that Athletics is the olympics. But the way things are going any investment needs returns and I can see the men at the top looking at how the can increase the medal tally rather then improving athletics.
I know the boxers did well but i'd give up all their medals for one on the track.

shels4ever

thirtyfoot wrote: »

I think focusing on certain events is a good idea. Look at events where athletes, like Irish athletes can excel, and maybe focus on those.

I was thinking about that too, What events would you pick? 400,400h, 800,1500, shot , hammer ,LJ, Hj . But did Rupp not show that we cold be in the mix in the 10k with propper coaching too? We did have a Mark Carol before there must be more out there undeveloped.

MrCreosote

One other thing- people always say if we fund successful athletes that it will pay for itself by inspiring young people to take up the sport.

The opposite is also true- pouring money into athletes who persistently underperform, or are never going to make the top grade has the effect of turning people off.

This is what's happening now- I personally know the effort, talent and sacrifice that goes into even making the Olympics, but all Joe Public sees is yet another athlete going out in the first round.

So in fact the current system actually is worse for Irish Athletics than doing nothing at all.

Krusty_Clown

MrCreosote wrote: »

As it's an Olympics post-mortem thread, and the ultimate aim in the Olympics is medalling, the best approach would be:

Slash funding for Irish Athletics
Pump the cash into sports with a high likelihood of medalling- rowing, sailing, canoe/kayak etc. The British team consciously targetted track cycling for this reason- small number of competing countries, good payback from technological advances and lots of medals on offer.

Forget about T&F being the flagship sport at the Games. People are happy with medals- give them some!

UK Sport invested in all Olympic sports, not just those where they have a greater chance to medal, or those where team GB have a history. They didn't specialize at all. They invested in everything. And it seems to have paid off. Here's the breakdown of their investment: by sport

While cycling will have been their most profitable sport (by medal irrespective of colour), other sports are not as predictable (in order of medal profitability):
Cycling
Taekwondo
Shooting
Triathlon
Equestrian
Gymnastics
Rowing
Boxing (Amateur)
Judo
Canoeing
Athletics
Sailing
Diving
Swimming
Hockey
Table Tennis
Weightlifting
Wrestling
Fencing
Handball
Water Polo
Synchronised Swimming
Volleyball
Archery
Modern Pentathlon
Badminton
Basketball

So the answer is not in taking from one sport to give to another, but to increase investment in all sports. In terms of Olympic medal tally, athletics has been our second most succesful medal earner. While 16 of our Olympic medals have come from boxing, 6 have come from Athletics. The others? 1 from sailing, 1 from equestrian, and 4 from (*cough*) swimming. Also, if we took your suggested approach, would we ever again have a John, Sonia or Ronnie? We won't always win medals in athletics, but when we do, like the boxing, it's a momentous occasion.

thirtyfoot

McCr - this is an athletics forum and the thread is on the back of an RTE discussion by athletes about state of Irish athletics.

Splitting AI, what's defined as recreational? Maybe 10% of the sport is recreational, in the main a fad which may be gone in 10 years unlike competitive athletics which won't be going anywhere. How will funding that and cutting funding for the other 90% not kill the sport? Reminder, the thread is about improving Irish athletics not killing it.

I'm not saying throw money at this. You could half the money and get twice the return if things were done correctly. That what I am trying to get ideas on. Any ideas on that other than kill the sport?

ecoli

Personally I think we need to forget about the funding angle simply because we are not going to get any more in fact most likely we will get less this year after an Olympic cycle.

Universities are complaining about no funding to build a track do you really think the Government are going to spout any different

We need to get proactive

- We need to upskill coaches and from here create the demand for these coaches. Clubs need to be proactive in talent identification. We need to get into the schools and create better links. These are talent pools which need to be consistently targeted. Its great having people come back into the sport later in life but we need to find them young and do are best to keep them interested

- Look to create links with other sports. If you look at Rugby there seems to be a correlation between talent here and field events (Costello and Luke Mangan are two who come to mind) There are literally hundreds fall off when not making teams and we need to exploit that.
Another would be gymnastics while not that big in this country its still a pool for Pole Vaulting talent as there are many similarities in the skill sets and it is not surprising that many US and other nations Pole vaulters (especially female) have a gymnastic background
The people in these sports have already been identified for there sports they have the talents so we need to further this with the development of their skills. Athletics can offer these sports increased levels of fitness/speed etc. and in some cases can work well side by side due to the scheduling of the seasons.

- Training Camps. Rather than the current set up perhaps aim to try and link up with other nations targeting some of our weaker events (Jumps throws etc) sending them to the likes of the US or Eastern Europe. By linking up with other nations (doesn't have to be national teams) it gives the benefit of team atmosphere which is normally associated with training camps but also creates a learning environment where you see other Jumpers/Throwers and how they train/ setup. Send coaches to to up skill our coaches as well as showing the athletes what is required and hopefully enable them to pick up valuable information to bring home and apply to their training.

We need to get away from the Funding issue because realistically there is no hope of this changing in the near future (in fact will probably just get worse)

thirtyfoot

shels4ever wrote: »

I was thinking about that too, What events would you pick? 400,400h, 800,1500, shot , hammer ,LJ, Hj . But did Rupp not show that we cold be in the mix in the 10k with propper coaching too? We did have a Mark Carol before there must be more out there undeveloped.

I think the 400/400H/800 is an area we can be competitive at. I think throws, maybe hammer could be a good focus but not so up to speed on the field.

MrCreosote

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So the answer is not in taking from one sport to give to another, but to increase investment in all sports. In terms of Olympic medal tally, athletics has been our second most succesful medal earner. While 16 of our Olympic medals have come from boxing, 6 have come from Athletics. The others? 1 from sailing, 1 from equestrian, and 4 from (*cough*) swimming. Also, if we took your suggested approach, would we ever again have a John, Sonia or Ronnie? We won't always win medals in athletics, but when we do, like the boxing, it's a momentous occasion.

The list is interesting- but predictable enough I would have said. Individual sports high, team sports low. A few sports like Taekwondo and triathlon pushed up by outstanding performances from individuals.
The UK were in a different position as they specifically funded everything to a level where they'd be able to compete for these games. It'll be a very different story in 4 or 8 years.

Our athletics medals are worthy of celebration, but times have changed too much since the 80s when we last were competitive. We just won't be able to compete with the athletic powerhouses that have now developed.

As for Sonia O'Sullivan- she was a once-off. Would have been the most successful female athlete ever if she wasn't at her peak in the EPO years of the 90s. But the likelihood of another athlete coming along as good as her is remote- too low to justify the current funding.

thirtyfoot wrote: »

McCr - this is an athletics forum and the thread is on the back of an RTE discussion by athletes about state of Irish athletics.

Splitting AI, what's defined as recreational? Maybe 10% of the sport is recreational, in the main a fad which may be gone in 10 years unlike competitive athletics which won't be going anywhere. How will funding that and cutting funding for the other 90% not kill the sport? Reminder, the thread is about improving Irish athletics not killing it.

I'm not saying throw money at this. You could half the money and get twice the return if things were done correctly. That what I am trying to get ideas on. Any ideas on that other than kill the sport?

I'm well aware it's an athletics forum. My point is that the current funding is actively harming the sport. Increasing it will harm it further. Completely changing the organisation is necessary. Even just shutting down Athletics Ireland completely and setting nothing up in its place would improve things.

TheZ

We've won medals at 5000m before

Silly to just pick events I think. Outside 100m and 200m no reason we can't be competitive from 400m to 10,000. Boxing model with all athletes working together can be looked at but also look at grant system forcing athletes to race when perhaps they would be better training towards championships.

However from speaking to former Irish athletes a lot of them say that if they had a kid who was sporty/gifted they would not necessarily encourage them into athletics as there are other sports which are so much more financially lucrative even at an average level. Unless you are top 15 in world you won't mAke much money in athletics. Professionalism in rugby has seen explosion in interest. At 14, 15 years old athletics loses about 90 per cent of kids as you are then moving into a six day a week training regime and unless you are going to go somewhere then for most people not worth the effort and sacrifice involved.

thirtyfoot

McCr - shut down the organisation! How would we hold the hundreds of national and thousands of locals competitions? Get them all doing 10k on the road?

So no medical support for athletes, no underage internationals, no coaching development, no national competitions. Sounds like a quick way to kill the sport.

Ecoli- good points there as you'd expect. Making the clubs stronger is something that would be very positive.

ecoli

thirtyfoot wrote: »

McCr - shut down the organisation! How would we hold the hundreds of national and thousands of locals competitions? Get them all doing 10k on the road?

So no medical support for athletes, no underage internationals, no coaching development, no national competitions. Sounds like a quick way to kill the sport.

Ecoli- good points there as you'd expect. Making the clubs stronger is something that would be very positive.

I think effectively we need to naturally build up clubs into natural high performance centres to a point (our old point of the "super clubs" from discussion in years gone past)

MrCreosote

thirtyfoot wrote: »

McCr - shut down the organisation! How would we hold the hundreds of national and thousands of locals competitions? Get them all doing 10k on the road?

Not quite what I was saying (just using an extreme example). But AI is harming athletics by wasting resources on high-level athletes.

That's why splitting the organisation into two, one for nonelite/local athletics, one for top-level, is the way to go. The recreational side increase their funding, the elite get the amount they deserve based on results (i.e. a fraction of what they now receive).

downthemiddle

ecoli wrote: »

Personally I think we need to forget about the funding angle simply because we are not going to get any more in fact most likely we will get less this year after an Olympic cycle.

Universities are complaining about no funding to build a track do you really think the Government are going to spout any different

We need to get proactive

- We need to upskill coaches and from here create the demand for these coaches. Clubs need to be proactive in talent identification. We need to get into the schools and create better links. These are talent pools which need to be consistently targeted. Its great having people come back into the sport later in life but we need to find them young and do are best to keep them interested

- Look to create links with other sports. If you look at Rugby there seems to be a correlation between talent here and field events (Costello and Luke Mangan are two who come to mind) There are literally hundreds fall off when not making teams and we need to exploit that.
Another would be gymnastics while not that big in this country its still a pool for Pole Vaulting talent as there are many similarities in the skill sets and it is not surprising that many US and other nations Pole vaulters (especially female) have a gymnastic background
The people in these sports have already been identified for there sports they have the talents so we need to further this with the development of their skills. Athletics can offer these sports increased levels of fitness/speed etc. and in some cases can work well side by side due to the scheduling of the seasons.

- Training Camps. Rather than the current set up perhaps aim to try and link up with other nations targeting some of our weaker events (Jumps throws etc) sending them to the likes of the US or Eastern Europe. By linking up with other nations (doesn't have to be national teams) it gives the benefit of team atmosphere which is normally associated with training camps but also creates a learning environment where you see other Jumpers/Throwers and how they train/ setup. Send coaches to to up skill our coaches as well as showing the athletes what is required and hopefully enable them to pick up valuable information to bring home and apply to their training.

We need to get away from the Funding issue because realistically there is no hope of this changing in the near future (in fact will probably just get worse)

There are two issues that, for me, need addressing if things are to improve, structures and leadership.
In boxing talent is identified at an early age and these boxers are exposed to the high performance system. They get to see what is expected of them and what is required to compete at the highest level. They are part of a structure that exposes them to top level coaching from an early stage.
Contrast this with athletics. What structures are put in place to develop our young athletes? Every year we have schools internationals and Celtic Games teams. There is no follow up with these athletes worth talking about. These are our most talented young athletes, why aren't we looking to develop them further?
The point about gymnastics is one close to my own heart. I have a daughter who is a reasonable gymnast, good enough to medal at national level. She wants to do the pole vault. So far she has managed to do three training sessions. A current pole vaulter has been good enough to do these sessions with her. As he is competing himself he is unable to devote the time to coaching. He does however hope to set up a development squad for the winter. I'm involved in athletics, what chance would someone with no background in the sport have of getting their child involved in the pole vault or most other field events for that matter?
In general the people at the top of Athletics Ireland are there because they have always been there. We badly need new blood. We need people with initiative, purpose and vision. Unfortunately most people involved in the sport at grass root level don't want to get involved in the politics of the organisation. They are too busy in the wind and the rain developing young athletes despite the inertia of the governing body. The new president does appear to be a man of action. Hopefully he can overhaul the structures and get some fresh new blood involved who will give a new impetus to the organisation.
We need an immediate overhaul of the sport at high performance level. Otherwise after Rio we will be asking why Mark English, Ciara Mageean and Thomas Barr etc haven't reached their potential. It is time to ask serious questions.

Dan man

Whilst results from athletics at these Olympics from an Irish perspective where on the most part disappointing, Irish athletics is possibly experiencing it's most exciting period ever. Any cut in funding would actually be shooting ourselves in the foot in terms of our Olympic medal prospects for 2016 and 2020.

Look at the juniors coming through:

Conor McCullough: World Junior Champion in Hammer (2010), World Junior Silver (2008)

Kate Veale (Race Walking): World Youth Champion (2011); 4th place in Youth Olympic Games (2010)

Mark English (800m): 5th place at World Junior Championships (2012)....2 of the medallists in that event went on to win Olympic medals in London, showing how brilliant Mark done to come 5th against a top class field, not just at junior level.

Ciara Mageean (1,500m): Silver at World Junior Championships (2010).


When you see results from Laura Reynolds (20th place at Olympics in 20km walk) and Brendan Boyce (29th place in 50km walk)....they will surely improve as they are very young for their events and won't be peaking until about 2020 or beyond.

Plenty more exciting prospects that I haven't mentioned but you get my point, athletics in Ireland is on the cusp of delivering success for us on the Olympic stage, a cut in funding could really damage some of our best medal prospects for the next Olympic cycle.

I know people will probably reply to say that we are continually looking at the next Olympic cycles for success, but there were never anywhere near as many exciting prospects on the horizon that I can remember.

Same goes for swimming....on the face of it, people would look at it and say we have no hope of success after an "embarrassing" showing in London. But with Grainne Murphy and in particular Sycerika McMahon, Irish swimming has huge medal prospects for 2016. Sycerika I am sure will be in medal range by Rio, she's a superb talent.

ecoli

downthemiddle wrote: »

There are two issues that, for me, need addressing if things are to improve, structures and leadership.
In boxing talent is identified at an early age and these boxers are exposed to the high performance system. They get to see what is expected of them and what is required to compete at the highest level. They are part of a structure that exposes them to top level coaching from an early stage.
Contrast this with athletics. What structures are put in place to develop our young athletes? Every year we have schools internationals and Celtic Games teams. There is no follow up with these athletes worth talking about. These are our most talented young athletes, why aren't we looking to develop them further?
The point about gymnastics is one close to my own heart. I have a daughter who is a reasonable gymnast, good enough to medal at national level. She wants to do the pole vault. So far she has managed to do three training sessions. A current pole vaulter has been good enough to do these sessions with her. As he is competing himself he is unable to devote the time to coaching. He does however hope to set up a development squad for the winter. I'm involved in athletics, what chance would someone with no background in the sport have of getting their child involved in the pole vault or most other field events for that matter?
In general the people at the top of Athletics Ireland are there because they have always been there. We badly need new blood. We need people with initiative, purpose and vision. Unfortunately most people involved in the sport at grass root level don't want to get involved in the politics of the organisation. They are too busy in the wind and the rain developing young athletes despite the inertia of the governing body. The new president does appear to be a man of action. Hopefully he can overhaul the structures and get some fresh new blood involved who will give a new impetus to the organisation.
We need an immediate overhaul of the sport at high performance level. Otherwise after Rio we will be asking why Mark English, Ciara Mageean and Thomas Barr etc haven't reached their potential. It is time to ask serious questions.

Perhaps this is a case for the revival of International style duel meets that were held previously. Or maybe having these could be held to coincide the Training camp idea I proposed.

I do see your point regarding structure and perhaps there could be a case for emulating triathlons talent identification format or even perhaps setting up a network similar to the regional development officers to work in tandem with the coaches where talent identification is a full time job for a few around the country

I do think there have been cases where people have tried to make a change but there has been some opposition so I would agree with you regarding an overhaul of personnel

Pisco Sour

I think a lot of things can be learned from Australia.

Firstly their Little Aths really is exceptional and second to none. Check out the organisation of this website:

http://www.littleathletics.com.au/

The setup gives kids a wealth of competitive competition, not just with other kids their age, but also with themselves. For example every week after a track meet they give kids a score card. The card has each child’s P.Bs for the events they did that day. They get one each week and get to see their progression.

Rob and Marian Heffernan were training in Australia earlier in the year and they experienced the entire setup on a regular basis and had nothing but good things to say about it.

Another area that Australia does well is their club culture. I can only speak for Victoria, and cant comment on the rest of the country but it's funny that you should mention the idea of "super clubs" as there are only around 50 clubs in the whole of VIC, which has a population around that of Ireland. However these clubs are very well established with good membership numbers.

Their equivalent of the National League is a very well run competition called the AV Shield:

http://www.athsvic.org.au/viewPage.php?webPageID=138

Basically the state of Victoria is divided into 6 regions, with each region having 12 rounds starting in October, ending in February. The top clubs from each region qualify for the AV Shield Final in February. This is in huge contrast to the National League which has just 2 rounds and a grand final. In addition, unlike the National League which only allows one competitor per club, per event, the AV Shield allows an unlimited number of competitors per club, per event, with 6 from each club scoring points per event. Overall, there is just a lot of competition there for athletes. Underage athletes are allowed to compete against adults. I have run against 13 year olds at times. If an underaged athlete is good enough he/she will get to run regularly against some of the best seniors. Overall the grassroots culture is top notch there.

I'll try get some facts and figures when I go back as to the finances behind the whole thing, but I know for a fact AV have less staff than AAI so they are not exactly loaded with cash.

ecoli

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I think a lot of things can be learned from Australia.

Firstly their Little Aths really is exceptional and second to none. Check out the organisation of this website:

http://www.littleathletics.com.au/

The setup gives kids a wealth of competitive competition, not just with other kids their age, but also with themselves. For example every week after a track meet they give kids a score card. The card has each child’s P.Bs for the events they did that day. They get one each week and get to see their progression.

Rob and Marian Heffernan were training in Australia earlier in the year and they experienced the entire setup on a regular basis and had nothing but good things to say about it.

Another area that Australia does well is their club culture. I can only speak for Victoria, and cant comment on the rest of the country but it's funny that you should mention the idea of "super clubs" as there are only around 50 clubs in the whole of VIC, which has a population around that of Ireland. However these clubs are very well established with good membership numbers.

Their equivalent of the National League is a very well run competition called the AV Shield:

http://www.athsvic.org.au/viewPage.php?webPageID=138

Basically the state of Victoria is divided into 6 regions, with each region having 12 rounds starting in October, ending in February. The top clubs from each region qualify for the AV Shield Final in February. This is in huge contrast to the National League which has just 2 rounds and a grand final. In addition, unlike the National League which only allows one competitor per club, per event, the AV Shield allows an unlimited number of competitors per club, per event, with 6 from each club scoring points per event. Overall, there is just a lot of competition there for athletes. Underage athletes are allowed to compete against adults. I have run against 13 year olds at times. If an underaged athlete is good enough he/she will get to run regularly against some of the best seniors. Overall the grassroots culture is top notch there.

I'll try get some facts and figures when I go back as to the finances behind the whole thing, but I know for a fact AV have less staff than AAI so they are not exactly loaded with cash.

The only problems I would have with that are we have a little athletics programme and a National League already and have not really had any bearing on elite development (Admittedly the one athlete per event thing is a difference)

Also couple that with fact that Australia are after coming off 3 of there worst athletics medals haul (3 here and 4 in Beijing and 3 in Athens)

james1992

I'm not involved in athletics but a big fan and follow the Irish.

lost's of interesting and good ideas on many area's that can be improved.

But my main one would be level of coaches firstly and the training programs they have in place for there athletes.
Let's say all the athletes named on the athletics ireland website for junior squad. These athletes are obviuosly the best underage talent we have involved in athletics at this current time and is there a stucture in place for these athlete's to progress to the next level ???? that would concern me looking in from the general athletics fan point of view.
Are all the coaches of these athletes the best coaches for these talented athletes ?? ...Have these coaches experience in dealing with such talented athletes ?? Are they getting advice from a coaching manger in Athletics Ireland??? .........

Listening to Sky News during the games and they were talking about how British athletics have really made an effort to upskill coaches over the past few years.

Are our coaches as good as they can be ?? obviously there are some great coaches in Ireland but can that number be improved ??

Dan man

Eamonn Sweeney's thoughts on the state of Irish athletics, another kick in the teeth for Kevin Ankrom as well as Alistair Cragg and Tori Pena:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/on-a-fast-track-to-irrelevance-3197116.html

Pisco Sour

ecoli wrote: »

The only problems I would have with that are we have a little athletics programme and a National League already and have not really had any bearing on elite development (Admittedly the one athlete per event thing is a difference)

Also couple that with fact that Australia are after coming off 3 of there worst athletics medals haul (3 here and 4 in Beijing and 3 in Athens)

There is no comparison between the Little Aths programme in Ireland and in Australia. Maybe if they adopt the same structure they have in Australia then perhaps it WILL have a bearing on elite development.

People here have suggested more of a club culture. Well the AV Shield system in Australia does exactly that. I think there would be merits to changing the National League setup. 2 rounds and a grand final, where just one person per club per event can compete doesn't do much to foster a club culture IMO.

3 medals for a country of 21 million people is a pretty good result, especially given the fact they face the same problems as us, having to compete against the more popular sports of AFL (think GAA popularity x 2), Cricket and Rugby League.

thirtyfoot

Not sure Aussie model is the benchmark based on their Olympics. Out of interest, how have the state of Victoria done in London, don't know where the Aussies athletes are from?

Also, on club thing, when I or ecoli speak of improving clubs, it's not at a recreational track level but more turning them all into Ferrybanks or DSDs or Mullingar. Leagues are only a small part of this, coaching in clubs is more important. Broadening the appeal of t&f as Pisco suggests would be good but not sure what return you would get on your investment.

shotgunmcos

PE teachers should have to have a mandatory decathlon program in schools. You could spot talent from that quickly enough

Kurt Godel

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Also, on club thing, when I or ecoli speak of improving clubs, it's not at a recreational track level but more turning them all into Ferrybanks or DSDs or Mullingar. Leagues are only a small part of this, coaching in clubs is more important. Broadening the appeal of t&f as Pisco suggests would be good but not sure what return you would get on your investment.

You'd have a much larger crop of teenage athletes training for T&F, that would feed into higher performances down the line. There's a good club structure in many parts of Ireland, but its non-existant in others. Those barren areas (I live in one) are inundated with kids doing Community Games every year, on a GAA pitch. There's a load of talent, and performances develop as the (half-yearly) training season continues. Over the years, any fast boys will be pushed towards GAA, any fast girls that aren't built for Camogie just stop when they hit secondary education. I've seen at least one huge teenage talent just stop, when she didn't have any support structure around her.

One solution would be to build a tartan track, with all T&F equipment, at every secondary school in Ireland (say over a 500 enrollment), like they have in most high schools in America (or most other developed countries). Fund it through a tax on alcohol so the booze-swilling "best fans in the world" get to contribute to their sporting heroes' development. PE teachers would bite your hand off for this.

A "bottom-up" approach doesn't have to conflict with your "top-down"; both strands would encourage participation, competition, and ultimately performance.

Woddle

Firstly I'd have athletics Ireland set up a week long brain storming conference, invite all the top juvenile club coaches from around the country who are having success and invite other nations coaches who are having success (Britain, America) and have them devise an athletic curriculum. The curriculum would map out the development of a kid from the age of 8 all the way up to 18. Make it as detailed as possible, How many times should an 8 year old train, what type of sessions, whatever you can think of, better games.
Have this curriculum taught to every club in the country, similar to the level 1 and 2 set up but much more detailed.
Have the curriculum published and sent out to every club in the country so as club coaches who have a difference of opinion no longer can because all they have to do is refer to the new bible.
Target only the age groups of 8-12 year olds (as of 2012 with the 2024 games in mind, need to think longer term) with the curriculum and make it compulsory for clubs to follow through with it, have the RDO's or whoever in AI visit and inspect the clubs commitment to the curriculum.

Another idea I suggested at our own club meeting was an end of season type school report for parents. I suggested that our club have an updated google doc with restricted access to the coaches alone. On the google doc it would have every kid registered with the club, it would then have details of all their races but also to include Time trials (400m) for every kid so as to accurately record each kid’s progression or lack of. This also can help identify talent.

Now maybe if every club was to do sth similar and athletics Ireland published 400m standards for all age groups and if a kid in your club reached that standard that that information would be passed on to AI who have their own database and now they are in a position to track these kids themselves and invite to specialised workshops.

Also at our club meeting there was bit off a 50/50 split on the time trials, those that were against didn't actually have a reason for it other than they felt it was too much for the kids? Is this half the problem have we gone too soft on our kids with all the ''you'll burn them out'' having gone to a ridiculously stupid level.

Pisco Sour

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Not sure Aussie model is the benchmark based on their Olympics. Out of interest, how have the state of Victoria done in London, don't know where the Aussies athletes are from?

Also, on club thing, when I or ecoli speak of improving clubs, it's not at a recreational track level but more turning them all into Ferrybanks or DSDs or Mullingar. Leagues are only a small part of this, coaching in clubs is more important. Broadening the appeal of t&f as Pisco suggests would be good but not sure what return you would get on your investment.

Yeh but, while the AV Shield is good for recreational athletes like myself, that doesn't get in the way of the top guys. The AV Shield is there for all athletes and provides regular competition for the best athletes, as well as people like me.

For example, Steve Cain, the best decathlete in Australia, who but for injury would have made the Olympic B qualifier this year for sure, is at the AV Shield week in, week out, competing in various events. Make no mistake, the standard is high. The presence of people like me does not get in the way of that.

Regards the Victorian athletes in London, here is a list of them:

http://www.athsvic.org.au/cache/NewsFile/6390Athlete%20Profiles%20%28full%29.pdf

Of their 3 medalists, only Tallant is from Victoria. Kathryn Mitchell came 9th in the women's javelin. Ben Harradine came 9th in the men's discus. They would be the best performances off the top of my head. They certainly aren't world beating by any means, though better than our performances. Qualification in Australia is fairly tough though and Athletics Australia set their own criteria which is usually tougher than the Olympic A-Standards for certain events. The main problem with Australia is that their summer is the European winter, so their track season finishes just as the European track season starts which makes it hard to peak when it matters. They aint perfect by any means with how they run their sport, but there are certainly elements from their models which can be applied, or at least considered, here. The Little Aths is a big thing anyway. The way they do it in Australia is very impressive, and when you've got top Irish athletes raving about it then they have to be doing something right.

I guess Australia is a good example to perhaps benchmark how sport in general is run. Notwithstanding a poor Olympics by their standards, they consistently perform better than their population of 21 million would suggest they should. If anything, athletics has it tougher down there than it does here. It gets zero TV coverage, except the Olympics and World Champs. If you want Diamond League you need Eurosport. There are far more sports down there. The market is saturated with sport, and the big sports such as AFL, Cricket and Rugby League eat into everything, leaving little for other sports. There is not a lot of money in Australian Athletics, but what they do have, they put to good use. Anybody who has seen the new facility at Albert Park will know what I mean.

http://pallefreestyle.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/20111212-000506.jpg

thirtyfoot

Kurt Godel wrote: »

You'd have a much larger crop of teenage athletes training for T&F, that would feed into higher performances down the line. There's a good club structure in many parts of Ireland, but its non-existant in others. Those barren areas (I live in one) are inundated with kids doing Community Games every year, on a GAA pitch. There's a load of talent, and performances develop as the (half-yearly) training season continues. Over the years, any fast boys will be pushed towards GAA, any fast girls that aren't built for Camogie just stop when they hit secondary education. I've seen at least one huge teenage talent just stop, when she didn't have any support structure around her.

One solution would be to build a tartan track, with all T&F equipment, at every secondary school in Ireland (say over a 500 enrollment), like they have in most high schools in America (or most other developed countries). Fund it through a tax on alcohol so the booze-swilling "best fans in the world" get to contribute to their sporting heroes' development. PE teachers would bite your hand off for this.

A "bottom-up" approach doesn't have to conflict with your "top-down"; both strands would encourage participation, competition, and ultimately performance.

Not saying a top-down, simply saying the Victoria Shield concept of its been almost a recreational t&f league that makes the sport more accessible to a recreational type runner of day 25+ may not benefit the sport based on investment. Look at the clubs who are most successfully and they will also have the most members in their county. They cater for all levels of juvenile.

the_real_lamp

Paul Hession's article in the Indo is a good read (unusual for the Indo) he basically emphasises that facilities are not as important as coaches and good coaches are essential. Look at the Brits, yes they have great facilities but they have brought in foreign coaches in cycling, athletics and swimming in the past. It will cost money but Zaur Antia proves that you cannot beat quality.