Is the Vatican facing a world-wide schism?

robindch

The Vatican hasn't had to face down a serious schism, or the threat of one, since Luther's Reformation in the 16th Century, but over the last few years, there's been so much political jockeying in and around the Catholic Church, and so much of it has done openly, that I can't finally help but wonder if it's starting to face one now.

Inputs into this are the ongoing, unpleasant and increasingly open, fight between the conservative and liberal wings of the church; the afterburn of the worldwide pedophile scandal and the Vatican's cold response to it; increasing centralization and legalistic application of dry church doctrine and policy at the expense of human decency; declining believerships in many countries; populations of priests and nuns who are becoming fewer, but older; the open homophobia and deceit concerning sex education; the control of schools and their use as indoctrination centers; weird goings-on within the Vatican Bank; the increasingly shrill tone of many current catholic publications; Ratzinger's evident inability to connect on a human level with just about anybody; associations like the ACP in Ireland which openly defy Vatican policy; occasional talk even amongst hard-liners of schism. And so on and so on.

Has the Vatican finally navigated itself so far up the only creek it could, that it's finally on the verge of breaking apart?

Sarky

I hope so. I've never seen a schism before, I think it'd be fascinating. All those priests saying "no, THAT bit of imaginary theology is bollocks" without a trace of irony...

krudler

Vatican III: Vatican With A Vengeance.

Galvasean

Considering the amount of Catholics (not just laypeople, but priests too) saying things along the lines of, "The Pope aint the boss of me!" these days, it doesn't appear far off. I would not be surprised if in the next ten years we had a breakaway 'Irish Church of Catholics' or some such.

Dades

I heard some elderly country folk over the weekend talking about how priests should be allowed marry.

Even this demographic can see how outdated and detrimental the whole celibacy concept is.

aidan24326

The nuns are being criticised by the Vatican, for, amongst other things -

NYT wrote:

...being silent in the church’s fight against abortion and same-sex marriage while pouring energy into working for the poor and disenfranchised.

Imagine that, striving to help the poor and the needy while ignoring the fight against the evil sodomites! Should they be burned at the stake or merely excommunicated?

yeppydeppy

I don't see it happening - Herr Kommandant Ratzinger is 85 and so there can't be too much diesel left in that tank. Once he's browners they'll elect a middle of the road pope and keep the money rolling in ship afloat.

krudler

Galvasean wrote: »

Considering the amount of Catholics (not just laypeople, but priests too) saying things along the lines of, "The Pope aint the boss of me!" these days, it doesn't appear far off. I would not be surprised if in the next ten years we had a breakaway 'Irish Church of Catholics' or some such.

Irish Church of Catholics? fcuk off we're the Catholic Irish Church.

vibe666

krudler wrote: »

Irish Church of Catholics? fcuk off we're the Catholic Irish Church.

splitters!

what about the REAL Catholic Church?

worked for them IRA fellas having a *REAL* branch. :pac:

robindch

Looking at the way the church seems to be splitting, what about The Continuity Catholics?

Mistress 69

Galvasean wrote: »

Considering the amount of Catholics (not just laypeople, but priests too) saying things along the lines of, "The Pope aint the boss of me!" these days, it doesn't appear far off. I would not be surprised if in the next ten years we had a breakaway 'Irish Church of Catholics' or some such.

How about The PCCOI, The Provisional Catholic Church Of Ireland..:pac:

seamus

Sarky wrote: »

I hope so. I've never seen a schism before, I think it'd be fascinating. All those priests saying "no, THAT bit of imaginary theology is bollocks" without a trace of irony...

In reality that should probably be read in Dara O'Briain's voice, but just because it was you who posted it, I read it in Billy Connolly's voice.

Sarky

But I sound nothing like him, as this shameless podcast plug will attest!

Actor

robindch wrote: »

The Vatican hasn't had to face down a serious schism, or the threat of one, since Luther's Reformation in the 16th Century, but over the last few years, there's been so much political jockeying in and around the Catholic Church, and so much of it has done openly, that I can't finally help but wonder if it's starting to face one now.

Inputs into this are the ongoing, unpleasant and increasingly open, fight between the conservative and liberal wings of the church; the afterburn of the worldwide pedophile scandal and the Vatican's cold response to it; increasing centralization and legalistic application of dry church doctrine and policy at the expense of human decency; declining believerships in many countries; populations of priests and nuns who are becoming fewer, but older; the open homophobia and deceit concerning sex education; the control of schools and their use as indoctrination centers; weird goings-on within the Vatican Bank; the increasingly shrill tone of many current catholic publications; Ratzinger's evident inability to connect on a human level with just about anybody; associations like the ACP in Ireland which openly defy Vatican policy; occasional talk even amongst hard-liners of schism. And so on and so on.

Has the Vatican finally navigated itself so far up the only creek it could, that it's finally on the verge of breaking apart?

So long as the renegades break away and don't expect the Church to fund their endeavours; all the best to them. They'll soon see how hard evangelising is once they have to put their hands in their pockets. The Church is funded by the Faithful down through the ages and this good-will should not be used to fund heretical outfits such as the ACP.

Sarky

No doubt they'll just finance it through sodomy. They're evil heretics, after all.

muppeteer

Actually what happens to pooled assets in clubs when a split occurs? Do the splitters get a proportional share or just told to fcuk off and get your own priceless art collection?

Subpopulus

I don't think we'll see a huge schism per say, but more of a gradual spalling off of national churches. I can certainly see a split happening in the Irish church with a more moderate group heading off and allowing greater lay participation and allowing married priests.

If that were to happen it would be quite messy, I'd imagine all the Bishops and other clergy further up the pecking order would be still quite loyal to the Vatican and would be reluctant to relinquish any power to a new church.

On the other hand none of that might happen and the church might continue to limp on in it's state of decrepitude, becoming ever more out of touch and continuing to fade in influence.

The Mad Hatter

muppeteer wrote: »

Actually what happens to pooled assets in clubs when a split occurs? Do the splitters get a proportional share or just told to fcuk off and get your own priceless art collection?

With any luck both sides will claim to be the real catholic church and a lengthy legal battle and/or infighting will ensue. That would be funny.

GLaDOS

There is a lot of Irish people who would like to call themselves Catholic while not actually Catholic rules, would certainly suit them.

Galvasean

krudler wrote: »

Irish Church of Catholics? fcuk off we're the Catholic Irish Church.

The Catholic People's Front?

robindch

muppeteer wrote: »

Actually what happens to pooled assets in clubs when a split occurs?

When the Soviet Union was dissolved, each derivative republic grabbed whatever Aeroflot 'planes happened to be sitting on their own sovereign territory.

I'm sure the Vatican could manage something equivalent.

muppeteer

robindch wrote: »

When the Soviet Union was dissolved, each derivative republic grabbed whatever Aeroflot 'planes happened to be sitting on their own sovereign territory.

I'm sure the Vatican could manage something equivalent.

I suppose it would depend on the size of each portion that was splitting off.
A single parish priest and a chunk of the local congregation would probably be told to feck off and get out of church property.
If however a bishop and a whole diocese were to split I would imagine they would have enough legal claim to keep the buildings, cars, pension funds etc.

The thing is though a split would be unlikely to be so neatly divided, with bits and pieces of parishes splitting all over the country. This would leave the splitters with little power and little claim to assets.

Would be interesting to see how it would all pan out, though I suspect it will come to nothing.
Those liberal enough to disagree with the Vatican will be drawing on al a carte Catholics for a base of support, they will moan and fight as best they can but I can't see them causing such huge a huge upheaval. A bit like trying to organise a pot smokers protest:D

The parallels with the Soviet breakup with the liberalising and conservative forces vying for power are interesting too. I'm sure the irony will be lost on them:)

aidan24326

robindch wrote: »

what about The Continuity Catholics?

Who would surely run into disagreement with the Real Irish Religious Association of Catholics ?

kylith

Probably Acquiris Quodcumquae Rapis (you get what you grab)as they say*, with the first priest to get to the church calling dibs.

*On the Discworld anyway.

the culture of deference

Caption this

Subpopulus

the culture of deference wrote: »

Caption this

Santa: Frohe Weihnachen!
Putin: Why is Santa not have beard?

Kivaro

the culture of deference wrote: »

Caption this

Popey: How do you like my outfit?
Putin: It's a bit camp.
Popey: But the masses love it!

robindch

Ratzinger: Youthful fascism is so easy to get over, innit?
Putin + Ratzinger: lol!

joseph brand

magicbastarder

how would they pick a leader of the new church? democracy sounds like an atheist plot.

Dades

the culture of deference wrote: »

Voiceover: "Two, there always are."