THE END for A4

killalanerr

I have being browsing the CI calendar for a few races to finish off the the season to try and pick up the few points needed for the up grade but unless i missed something it looks like like this weekend brings the curtain down on the A4 season
As a vet i see usher have a J+V 3 day but i cant find any info on it and i dont fancy a 35km TT so it looks like thats a wrap ?

Plastik

There'll be A4 racing in the Charleville 2-day in September, but pickings are certainly slim.

daragh_

Guess I picked the wrong time to get a number :rolleyes:

Charleville it is so.

daragh_

Mondello is on again on the 16th if that's any use?

Morrisseeee

It's a real shame alright, especially as it's only early August, and a bit of a bummer if you're hitting form at this stage in the season !!
I guess it's the sportives we'll have to peak for now.

colm_gti

daragh_ wrote: »

Mondello is on again on the 16th if that's any use?

That's a handicap start A4/3/2/1 race, very little chance of picking up points to upgrade from A4 there unless you're very very strong

kenmc

I don't think there are ever upgrade points in a handicap, something to do with if they get the handicaps wrong, the A4s will pick up all the points and the a3/2/1 will get nothing.

That's why they have first N across the line then then first 1/2 unplaced from the remaining groups.
Might be wrong though.

Lumen

kenmc wrote: »

I don't think there are ever upgrade points in a handicap, something to do with if they get the handicaps wrong, the A4s will pick up all the points and the a3/2/1 will get nothing.

That's why they have first N across the line then then first 1/2 unplaced from the remaining groups.
Might be wrong though.

That sounds wrong. If the groups come together and an A4 wins the sprint they must surely get points.

Unplaced prizes are to reward the lesser mortals for their valiant efforts.

dooverylittle

kenmc wrote: »

I don't think there are ever upgrade points in a handicap, something to do with if they get the handicaps wrong, the A4s will pick up all the points and the a3/2/1 will get nothing.

That's why they have first N across the line then then first 1/2 unplaced from the remaining groups.
Might be wrong though.

I got A4 points in a swords handicap race this year.

Esroh

Guys As the Ballinrobe race is A4 only dont let the fact we way out West put you off.
You will make Galway in no time on the motorway and If you follow the signs for Castlebar you arrive in Ballinrobe right outside Sign On 30/40 min later.
3 hours from the heart of the Pale .

morana

the calendar isnt cast in stone! Promoters will put on A4 events and publicise. I am sure there will be more. I seen the other day that Kilmessan are having one. Dont despair!

ednwireland

are you in a club - organize your own

RobFowl

ednwireland wrote: »

are you in a club - organize your own

Don't go there.....
We're in Swords CC

kenmc

Lumen wrote: »

That sounds wrong. If the groups come together and an A4 wins the sprint they must surely get points.

Unplaced prizes are to reward the lesser mortals for their valiant efforts.

dooverylittle wrote: »

I got A4 points in a swords handicap race this year.

Like I said, might be wrong.

killalanerr

kenmc wrote: »

Like I said, might be wrong.

Lumen wrote: »

That sounds wrong. If the groups come together and an A4 wins the sprint they must surely get points.

Unplaced prizes are to reward the lesser mortals for their valiant efforts.

kenmc wrote: »

I don't think there are ever upgrade points in a handicap, something to do with if they get the handicaps wrong, the A4s will pick up all the points and the a3/2/1 will get nothing.

That's why they have first N across the line then then first 1/2 unplaced from the remaining groups.
Might be wrong though.

If you are in the first 6 in a handicap race you will score points but if you get an unplaced pot as i have been a few times this year you get a mention and a few bob but no points,which is a pity cos i would have a sack of points if you did receive points for unplaced
In one race i got €15 for finishing 7th over all and the 1st unplaced A4 got €25
morana any chance we could look at changing things so an unplaced pot would receive points i would say if you are strong enough to get up for an unplaced spot in your class you would be well able to hold your own in the next cat

Lusk Doyle

dooverylittle wrote: »

I got A4 points in a swords handicap race this year.

Probably as a result of doing very little during the race I suspect

See what I did there? Clever!

killalanerr

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

See what I did there? Clever!

You are a lot of things LD but clever i pushing it

Lusk Doyle

killalanerr wrote: »

You are a lot of things LD but clever i pushing it

You work for me now, don't forget!

dougal01

Its not only the A4 season thats coming to an end Very little left in Leinster for any cats after this weekend.Nat A3 and jun champs next week.Problem is most promoters want to run events early in the year where the fields are guaranteed.After the end of June its hit and miss with numbers.I f you get small fields at this time of the year its hard to pay all the bills[ambulance prizes etc].Perhaps a september open league would be a runner?

Leroy42

Why is the season so skewed to March to June? Why not move it back a few months from May to September. People then aren't forced to train hard in the cold dark winter months and then when the weather is supposed to be better in Aug/Sept we all sit around and spin until next winter training begins.

Many big events happen in the summer (W200, Leinster Loop, Etape etc), not to mention the increased awareness that must be caused by Tour de France, but if anybody comes off those wanting to try racing they are told it is pretty much done.

dooverylittle

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Probably as a result of doing very little during the race I suspect

See what I did there? Clever!

Ha ha, Yep, but still did more then I should have.

Esroh

Black Rose lads told us about this on Sunday

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Rose-Racing/330959691888

They will have a A4 race if 25 + turn up otherwise it will be a generous Handicap.

This has a bit of a Hill.

joker77

Plastik wrote: »

There'll be A4 racing in the Charleville 2-day in September, but pickings are certainly slim.

Any details on this? The CI Calendar says A2/A3 only

buffalo

joker77 wrote: »

Any details on this? The CI Calendar says A2/A3 only

From Facebook:

On Saturday and Sunday 1st & 2nd September 2012 the 12th Annual Charleville Park Hotel 2 day 3 Stage cycle race takes place in Charleville. This the 12th Anniversary of the race it is widely regarded as the biggest 2 day race in the south of Ireland. This year the usual A2/3 race will once again be centre stage, But for 2012 we will once again have a seperate race for the A4'S. Unfortunitily we could not have the A4'S last year, so i am delighted to be able to run a race for them again. Stage 1 for 2012 is similar to last year, but with the inclusion of a 0.8 km climb within the last 7 km with a twisty narrow decent into Dromina which could break up the field before the fast run in to a new finish which is situated 1.2 km before last years finish long straight road, The stage last year was won by Olan Barrett Fermoy cc in 1h 59:11 stage 2 time trial is the same 6.4 km won in 2011 by Stephen Clancy Limerick cc in 8:43.90 and the final stage 3 is the same as last year won by Stephen Butler DMG in 1h 48:57 after an epic race.

Orwell have some lads heading down, drop me a mail.

BryanL

Is the Falling Leaves race on this year?

wav1

Was on 2 weeks ago.Now the ''SERC GP''

BryanL

wav1 wrote: »

Was on 2 weeks ago.Now the ''SERC GP''

Pity, it was a great late season race. The whole Irish calendar and riders are too RAS focused. Early June the season is winding down.

lovingitUA

As far as I was aware, you don't need points to upgrade from a4 to a3 as its stated the category is for first years andbeginners. Obviously upgrading from a3 upwards you need points. I think the idea of points with a4 is to stop people sitting there nd winning races week in week out because obviously if you have the points your upgraded

RobFowl

lovingitUA wrote: »

As far as I was aware, you don't need points to upgrade from a4 to a3 as its stated the category is for first years andbeginners. Obviously upgrading from a3 upwards you need points. I think the idea of points with a4 is to stop people sitting there nd winning races week in week out because obviously if you have the points your upgraded

That was the original idea but last year especially lots of people upgraded themselves to do the likes of the Gorey then asked for downgrades immediately after. As a result they changed the rules so all upgrades are by points scored only. If you feel you should be A3 but don't have the points you can appeal to the grading committee but you'd need a very convincing reason.

lovingitUA

RobFowl wrote: »

That was the original idea but last year especially lots of people upgraded themselves to do the likes of the Gorey then asked for downgrades immediately after. As a result they changed the rules so all upgrades are by points scored only. If you feel you should be A3 but don't have the points you can appeal to the grading committee but you'd need a very convincing reason.

Hmm...I see the point but not convinced, to downgrade you have to be off radar for something like 3 years. A4 is only around for 4 years or so anyway. I believe the whole system is screwed in this sense anyway; hold alicence, your attached to that group however, buy a one day licence with no recognition whatsoever, do whatever you want, heck, race a1 for the sake of it. Not that's its any benefit but there are silly loops obviously no odl for stage races

harringtonp

RobFowl wrote: »

That was the original idea but last year especially lots of people upgraded themselves to do the likes of the Gorey then asked for downgrades immediately after. As a result they changed the rules so all upgrades are by points scored only. If you feel you should be A3 but don't have the points you can appeal to the grading committee but you'd need a very convincing reason.

I like the original idea. Did quite a few A4 races this year and a couple last year so feel I have done my apprenticeship. Don't have a decent sprint, not a climber and am old (mid forties) so I'm not likely earn my way to A3 (too many good young guns coming through each year).

On the other hand I now find sitting in the bunch in A4 easy (average speeds and effort are quite a bit lower than at midweek club racing) and in recent races I'd prefer to try and waste myself rather than another anonymous bunch finish. I feel like I'd be good enough to sit in on most A3's.

The main problem I have with A4's is that they are short. Fine if they are on your doorstep but if you live in the west, driving 4-5-hours round trip for 90 minutes of racing does not make sense.

On a ODL, anyway next year I'll be ringing CI, making a case and seeing can they issue a full A3.

colm_gti

harringtonp wrote: »

On the other hand I now find sitting in the bunch in A4 easy (average speeds and effort are quite a bit lower than at midweek club racing)

That's because most people seem to be willing to sit around in the bunch, let one poor sod at the front drag them around, and do no work themselves in order to preserve themselves for a few hundred meters of effort at the finish, or at least that seemed to be the case in the few A4 races I done anyway....

harringtonp

colm_gti wrote: »

That's because most people seem to be willing to sit around in the bunch, let one poor sod at the front drag them around, and do no work themselves in order to preserve themselves for a few hundred meters of effort at the finish, or at least that seemed to be the case in the few A4 races I done anyway....

yes I've noticed that you regularly get proper breaks in A3 but on the same circuit in A4 it rarely happens. The only A4 race this year I did with clean break(s) was the Ras Clare

joker77

harringtonp wrote: »

On the other hand I now find sitting in the bunch in A4 easy (average speeds and effort are quite a bit lower than at midweek club racing) and in recent races I'd prefer to try and waste myself rather than another anonymous bunch finish. I feel like I'd be good enough to sit in on most A3's.

That's just the way A4 races are - an attack goes, the 'workers' up the front bust themselves to chase it down, rather than trying to bridge across and actually place in a race. It's very very rare that a worker - having been peddling like mad to bring a break back, actually ends up placing. And those guys that I've seen do this end up in A2 pretty quickly.

I think the vast majority of people in A4 would be able to 'sit in' the bunch in A3, you're nothing special there.

joker77

Oh - and applying for an A3 next year is as simple as just ticking the A3 box when you're filling out the license form

RobFowl

joker77 wrote: »

Oh - and applying for an A3 next year is as simple as just ticking the A3 box when you're filling out the license form

Not any more !
You can tick as many boxes as you like now but no points means no A3......

harringtonp

joker77 wrote: »

Oh - and applying for an A3 next year is as simple as just ticking the A3 box when you're filling out the license form

Actually is it ? Are you sent out what you tick ?

Plastik

Breaks haven't been working in A4 for a number of reasons. The people in the break aren't riding hard enough for long enough together. There's an element of people not knowing how to bridge across properly. Some riders are terrified to put in a dig to get across lest they fail in no-mans land and have to sit up. They'd rather ramp the pace up a notch. Maybe 'rather' is the wrong word, maybe that's all their strong enough to do.

And there's the fact that there's no team work, even though you could have a fair few club mates in the race. If there's a team mate in the break the rest of the guys should be moving to the front and make themselves a nuisance. What happens is that everyone in it for themselves and they just sit in, content that they don't have to pull at the front because of 'their man', but doing nothing else to help him out. To lay it all at the door of the man at the front of the peloton is a little unfair.

I don't know whether I'm happy or sad to see the self-upgrade to A3 gone. I was in two minds as to whether I was going to avail of it myself. In one sense I really want to earn the rest of the points to get there, but on the other hand I was considering moving up to avail of some of the stage racing the A3's can do that the A4's can't.

On a thread related note, there might be a few more Corkagh Park races for A4's in the pipeline.

joker77

RobFowl wrote: »

Not any more !
You can tick as many boxes as you like now but no points means no A3......

Perhaps morena can clear this up.

At the start of this season you could choose which license to take - A3 or A4. Some riders in our club took A3 that didn't have enough points.

The rule was then that once you took the A4 at the start, you could not upgrade mid-season.

So unless it's changed, when the time rolls around to renew the license, you can tick the A3 box.

joker77

Plastik wrote: »

On a thread related note, there might be a few more Corkagh Park races for A4's in the pipeline.

A4 only? i.e. separate races and not handicaps?

Do tell

Plastik

joker77 wrote: »

A4 only? i.e. separate races and not handicaps?

Do tell

No more info from me unfortunately, but I'd imagine that they'll be handicapped. Not as good as an A4 only race for us, but at least it's a race. It'll depend on numbers perhaps, I've raced there twice - once in an A4/A3 only race and the other in an A1-A4.

manwithaplan

I think it's a bit optimistic of anyone to believe that they are strong enough to take part in a successful break in an A3 race if they are not strong enough to get the points to get out of A4. Having said that, it's not easy to get the points in a single season as the opportunities are a bit limited, particularly is you don't have the time to take part in the few A4 stage races.

Lusk Doyle

manwithaplan wrote: »

I think it's a bit optimistic of anyone to believe that they are strong enough to take part in a successful break in an A3 race if they are not strong enough to get the points to get out of A4. Having said that, it's not easy to get the points in a single season as the opportunities are a bit limited, particularly is you don't have the time to take part in the few A4 stage races.

So basically ignore what you just said? :P

Lusk Doyle

Plastik wrote: »

Breaks haven't been working in A4 for a number of reasons. The people in the break aren't riding hard enough for long enough together.....And there's the fact that there's no team work, even though you could have a fair few club mates in the race.

I tried a break in my last a4 race in donore. I even had killalaner ready to get blocking on the front for me when I went. I ended up on my ar$e about 10 seconds after I made the move! It didn't work :'(

Beasty

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

. I ended up on my ar$e about 10 seconds after I made the move! It didn't work

Gave the rest of us a laugh though:D

Diarmuid

I think the big problem in A4 races and even A3s, is that riders don't fully commit to an attack/break. They ride hard for a short while but if it looks like the bunch is riding behind, they sit up. Instead you may as well put the head down and ride as hard for as long as you can. If you blow up and the bunch rides through you, well at least you tried.

Beasty

Does anyone know how many got promoted out of A4 into A3 this season?

It seems to me there's a bottleneck being created, with lots of A4 riders now battling for the relatively few points available. I'm not sure how many come into the sport at A4 level each year, but there seems to me to be a big risk that A4 will balloon in size with total numbers in A1 to A3 actually starting to drop off as not enough come through to replace those that drop back down into A4 or out of racing altogether.

manwithaplan

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

So basically ignore what you just said? :P

It's not easy to get 10 points in a single season but if you are perennially stuck in A4 there's no point fooling yourself that you would be sailing away in breaks in A3. Does that not make sense?

Lusk Doyle

manwithaplan wrote: »

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

So basically ignore what you just said? :P

It's not easy to get 10 points in a single season but if you are perennially stuck in A4 there's no point fooling yourself that you would be sailing away in breaks in A3. Does that not make sense?

I was being sarcastic! You must get that?

manwithaplan

Diarmuid wrote: »

I think the big problem in A4 races and even A3s, is that riders don't fully commit to an attack/break. They ride hard for a short while but if it looks like the bunch is riding behind, they sit up. Instead you may as well put the head down and ride as hard for as long as you can. If you blow up and the bunch rides through you, well at least you tried.

I'd agree with this. It's actually surprising how often the bunch gets quite close to a break and stops riding. You really have to commit when you are in a break and only give up when you are definitively doomed.

I was being sarcastic! You must get that?

Sorry - I must have come over all american for a minute

joker77

Beasty wrote: »

Does anyone know how many got promoted out of A4 into A3 this season?

It seems to me there's a bottleneck being created, with lots of A4 riders now battling for the relatively few points available. I'm not sure how many come into the sport at A4 level each year, but there seems to me to be a big risk that A4 will balloon in size with total numbers in A1 to A3 actually starting to drop off as not enough come through to replace those that drop back down into A4 or out of racing altogether.

I'm sure the numbers would be easy enough to come by. I don't think there's a problem with A4 bunches being too big though - A3 seems like the biggest group to me. There's a lot of passengers in A3 by the looks of it