Rugby Championship 2012 (4 Nations) superthread

thomond2006

18 August 2012: (GMT)
11:05AM: Australia vs New Zealand at ANZ Stadium, Sydney
16:00PM: South Africa vs Argentina - DHL Newlands, Cape Town

25 August 2012: (GMT)
08:35AM: New Zealand vs Australia at Eden Park, Auckland
19:10PM: Argentina vs South Africa - Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza

1 September 2012: Travel Bye

8 September 2012:
Australia vs South Africa at Patersons Stadium, Perth
New Zealand vs Argentina at Westpac Stadium in Wellington

15 September 2012:
Australia vs Argentina at Skilled Park, Gold Coast
New Zealand vs South Africa at Forsyth Barr in Dunedin

22 September 2012: Travel Bye

29 September 2012:
South Africa vs Australia - Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria
Argentina vs New Zealand - Estadio Ciudad de La Plata, La Plata

6 October 2012:
South Africa vs New Zealand - FNB Stadium, Johannesburg
Argentina vs Australia - Estadio Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario

http://www.sanzarrugby.com/therugbychampionship/about-trc/



All Blacks squad:
Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Tony Woodcock, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano, Sam Whitelock, Sam Cane, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam, Kieran Read, Adam Thomson, Victor Vito,

Aaron Smith, Piri Weepu, Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden, Tamati Ellison, Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith*, Israel Dagg, Hosea Gear, Cory Jane, Ben Smith, Julian Savea.

*Injured for initial rounds, SBW expected to feature in his absence.



Australian squad:
Ben Alexander, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Berrick Barnes, Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper, Dave Dennis, Kane Douglas, Anthony Fainga'a, Saia Fainga'a, Will Genia, Liam Gill, Mike Harris, Scott Higginbotham, Michael Hooper, Rob Horne, Digby Ioane, Sekope Kepu, Drew Mitchell, Stephen Moore, Nick Phipps, David Pocock (captain), Tatafu Polota-Nau, Benn Robinson, Radike Samo, Jake Schatz, Nathan Sharpe, Rob Simmons, James Slipper, Sitaleki Timani, Nic White

*James O'Connor is out of the initial rounds at least.



Springbok squad: Willem Alberts, Andries Bekker, Pat Cilliers, Marcell Coetzee, Keegan Daniel, Jean de Villiers (capt), Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, JJ Engelbrecht, Eben Etzebeth, Dean Greyling, Bryan Habana, Francois Hougaard, Elton Jantjies, Zane Kirchner, Siya Kolisi, Juandré Kruger, Patrick Lambie, Tendai Mtawarira, Lwazi Mvovo, Ruan Pienaar, JP Pietersen, Jacques Potgieter, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Pierre Spies, Frans Steyn, Morné Steyn, Adriaan Strauss, Flip van der Merwe, Jano Vermaak.



Argentina squad to face South Africa:

By position:
Props: Roncero, Figallo, Ayerza, Orlandi
Hookers: Creevy, Guiñazú
Locks: Albacete, Carizza, Vallejos
Backrowers: Leonardi, Senatore, Fernández Lobbe, Galindo, Farías
Scrum-halves: Vergallo, Landajo
Fly-halves: Hernández, Sánchez
Inside backs: Fernández, Bosch, Rodríguez
Outside backs: Bustos Moyano, Camacho, Agulla, Imhoff, González Amorosino

Pretty much all their strongest players are in there, Contepomi is basically retired after the June tests.

So, New Zealand's to lose? Australia's Super Rugby sides have been poor this year plus O'Connor missing a few games is a big blow. South Africa didn't look great against England plus there's a lot of bitching from SA fans about Meyer's conservativeness and favour towards Bulls players. Argentina might spring a surprise at home, they're a passionate bunch, but an away win in any of the SANZAR countries is a big ask.

The logo at the top came from here: http://stumbleinnbeijing.com/?p=768

harvester of sorrow

South Africa

Can't wait for this.Argentina's first year playing in the tri/four nations is gonna make this a great tournament.

Fishooks12

South Africa

Can see the Argies beating both of SA and Australia

.ak

South Africa

Australia will be hoping to put in a big tourny... or else the lions tour could be looking bleak.

pappyodaniel

South Africa

Argentina can beat anyone on their home patch. I can see them doing a job on Australia but losing to NZ and SA home and away. NZ are untouchable in my opinion.

Klunk_NZ

South Africa

NZ may drop 1 of the Aussie games when Nonu-Bill Williams Fails. Possibly the SA away game. That will still likely be enough to secure it.

Will be cheering the Argies on for upsets.

Want to see some flowing rugby from Aus.

Dominance up front from NZ and some nice half back play.

Don't particularly want to watch SA play though.

CatFromHue

I like the look of the Aussies at the moment and they've also been in camp the longest so should be, in theory, the best drilled team. If they can win the first game I think they could go on to win or do very well in the competition. Beale, Barnes, Mitchell, Higginbotham, and Sharpe will certainly add to the team that lost to NZ in the RWC.

Three of the their (Australia's) first four games are at home which should help them build up a head of steam. The fixture list hasn't been kind to Argentina though, they're the opposite with three of their first four games away!

New Zealand will be interesting to watch I think. They'll be missing Thorn, Kaino, Kahui (while a centre he did work very hard out on the wing), and Smith will miss the first couple of games. That and Dagg's form hasn't been great and Read has taken a few bangs to the head. Another one and he may be taken out for the season for medical reasons. They also had the easiest of the SANZAR teams in June as we were pants, so could have flattered to deceive then.

One thing for certain is that the addition of Argentina makes the comp alot more viewer friendly. Watching them play each other three times was a bit too much and also now there are two games per weekend.

PhatPiggins

I'd fear for Argentina to be honest. Their inclusion in this tournie was based on their 2007 exploits. This team isn't a patch on the 07 version. Long term it'll be a great thing for them this season they'll lose every game and ship some serious beatings on the road

GerM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I'd fear for Argentina to be honest. Their inclusion in this tournie was based on their 2007 exploits. This team isn't a patch on the 07 version. Long term it'll be a great thing for them this season they'll lose every game and ship some serious beatings on the road

Agreed. If NZ are interested they could put 60 on them if they don't take the foot off. Argentina are a very dull side. Their depth is paper thin and their first side isn't even up to much these days. If they get within 15-20 in any of their away games, I'll be surprised.

Podge_irl

GerM wrote: »

Agreed. If NZ are interested they could put 60 on them if they don't take the foot off. Argentina are a very dull side. Their depth is paper thin and their first side isn't even up to much these days. If they get within 15-20 in any of their away games, I'll be surprised.

If they get within 10 points in any of their home games I'll be surprised. They'll be expected to lose on the road and no one will think anything of it, but hammerings at home really will not help them.

CatFromHue

I think/hope that Argentina will win a game. Scotland's home record over the last couple of years against SA and Oz (two wins and a 4 point loss from three games) should give them more than hope.

What are Kirchner or Lambie like under the high ball does anyone?

I'm actually really looking forward to this comp, much more than the June Internationals.

Morf

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think/hope that Argentina will win a game. Scotland's home record over the last couple of years against SA and Oz (two wins and a 4 point loss from three games) should give them more than hope.

What are Kirchner or Lambie like under the high ball does anyone?

I'm actually really looking forward to this comp, much more than the June Internationals.

Kirchner is very solid at the back. Lambie not as much.

Fishooks12

South Africa

Morf wrote: »

Kirchner is very solid at the back. Lambie not as much.

He's woefully inadequate at every other aspect of fullback play bar kicking though

yimrsg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He's woefully inadequate at every other aspect of fullback play bar kicking though

All Kirchner does for the Bulls is chase up and unders from Hougard and Steyn which he is very good at. Lambie is more of a 10/12 shoe-horned in at 15 to add spark to the backs.

The whole Saffa backline is going to be awful so long as Meyer persists with Hougard and Steyn and a Bulls like approach to the game. I can see Argentina troubling them if they front up to the Bokke forwards. If they go behind expect to see a big reshuffle if they've any hope in winning, as they'll have no creativity in the backs in their normal lineup. Without JP Pietersen and Aplon in the side I can't see where they're going to get tries.

Also if any of their first choice front row get injured expect to see their scrum to be in trouble as Strauss and Greyling are big steps down from Bismarck and Beast.

Fishooks12

South Africa

yimrsg wrote: »

Also if any of their first choice front row get injured expect to see their scrum to be in trouble as Strauss and Greyling are big steps down from Bismarck and Beast.

Strauss looks like a giant baby!

I have no desire to watch SA play rugby while Morne Steyn is in the 10 jersey

KJY

I'll be watching SA for Willem Alberts, Jesus I taught he was fantastic.

I'm guessing nobody knows for certain but does anyone know what channel most watches are on? My Sky Sports 2 and 3 have gone down for some reason

Klunk_NZ

South Africa

Bledisloe cup will take some defending without Conrad.

CatFromHue

The question marks over whether SBW can play or not won't help either. If I were Hansen I'd have to have a deadline of Monday for it to be sorted. If it's not he's out of the squad.

Though isn't McCabe out for the Aussies in the centre too?

Klunk_NZ

South Africa

Also I watched the NZ training hit out last night.

20 minutes vs counties manukau 12- 0
20 minutes vs Auckland 12-5

[Jackass]

South Africa

I'd love to see Argentina do well, but I actually have a feeling they'll be completely white washed in their first tournament. Not the team they were a few years back, but like Italy in the 6 nations, the competition will undoubtedly improve their national team set up over time.

PhatPiggins

[Jackass] wrote: »

I'd love to see Argentina do well, but I actually have a feeling they'll be completely white washed in their first tournament. Not the team they were a few years back, but like Italy in the 6 nations, the competition will undoubtedly improve their national team set up over time.

Do you think Italy are any better then they were prior to joining?

Treviso are more competitive for sure

[Jackass]

South Africa

Yeah I think they are. Most importantly though, they've maintained standards at very least. Italy beating France for example would have been unimaginable before they were a 5/6 Nations team, but the funding they get means they can develop and not fade away like certain teams in the past, like Romania or even Pacific Islanders who have suffered from the lack of major competition during the professional era, those gaps keep widening.

Club involvement in the PRO12 will also help "grass roots" and getting and keeping players to stay at home is the next big step, but I think progress is always being made.

Don't forget France were once whipping boys in Europe.

I think it will take time, but maybe Argentina already have a better structure in rugby than Italy had, with the schools and universities in place and the better quality of oppisition, I think Argentina will gradually be a better success story than Italy, but I also think Italy, within our lifetime, will be a major force in rugby and win a championship. Hopefully anyway...

CatFromHue

From Italy's first four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -105 (per season) and won 2 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -17 points (per home game) for these four tournaments.

From Italy's last four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -81 (per season) and have won 3 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -8 points (per home game) for these four tournaments. Their last three seasons at home though they have a total points difference of -17 for all 7 games and an average of -2.4 per home game.

So yeah they have improved, they really should have beaten the English at home this season too.

irishbucsfan

South Africa

I think Treviso joining the RDP12 has a large effect on it as well, so you can't put all of that improvement down to just the 6 Nations.

PhatPiggins

CatFromHue wrote: »

From Italy's first four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -105 (per season) and won 2 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -17 points (per home game) for these four tournaments.

From Italy's last four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -81 (per season) and have won 3 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -8 points (per home game) for these four tournaments. Their last three seasons at home though they have a total points difference of -17 for all 7 games and an average of -2.4 per home game.

So yeah they have improved, they really should have beaten the English at home this season too.

What were their stats like prior to joining the 5/6 Nations? I know its not easy to compare "friendlies" with full tests.

Personally I think Italy's improvement has been far more gradual then hoped but the game has made huge gains in popularity there which is the real upshot.

cgpg5

Fear for the ARgies in this. Could well take some serious beatings.

Can't look past NZ winning this. SA were poor enough v England and Australia just about beat Wales in each test. NZ could well get a 100% record

CatFromHue

PhatPiggins wrote: »

What were their stats like prior to joining the 5/6 Nations? I know its not easy to compare "friendlies" with full tests.

Personally I think Italy's improvement has been far more gradual then hoped but the game has made huge gains in popularity there which is the real upshot.

I don't know to be honest, what I do know is that we played them 5 times before they got into the 6 Nations and lost 3 of those games (in the 90's we lost 3 out of our 4 games against them, Ireland were rubbish back then though).

I also think their improvement hasn't been huge but there has been some which is good to see.

[Jackass]

South Africa

CatFromHue wrote: »

From Italy's first four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -105 (per season) and won 2 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -17 points (per home game) for these four tournaments.

From Italy's last four 6 Nations they've averaged a points difference of -81 (per season) and have won 3 out of their 20 games. Their average home points difference was -8 points (per home game) for these four tournaments. Their last three seasons at home though they have a total points difference of -17 for all 7 games and an average of -2.4 per home game.

So yeah they have improved, they really should have beaten the English at home this season too.

Should have beaten us too!!

thomond2006

South Africa

According to someone on TRF, the Argies' first choice hooker Agustin Creevy got injured in a friendly against Stade and will miss some of the tournament.

Swiwi

Looking forward to this tournament. I think it will be NZ & SA fighting for 1st & 2nd, and Aussie & Arg for 3rd & 4th. Having home & away rather than 3 games is a huge plus. As a Kiwi I potentially fear the SA forward pack, if we get parity there, I can't see us finishing anywhere other than 1st. It is a huge tournament for Australia - they have the weakest forward pack, and that could cause them some real problems in Argentina. If all their backs remain injury-free, they are in with a shot, though. For the Northern Hemisphere it a great chance to evaluate them before the Lions tour. After all the Welsh hot air, they still came up 0-3 short, but you would figure the Lions should be a better chance. Can SA get their selections right?

thomond2006

South Africa

I'm praying for a couple of Argie surprises, the last thing anyone wants is Argentina to be the Italy of this tournament.

Plus it can do good things for the profile of the game in Argentina to have regular home games against high profile test sides.

Kilkenny14

thomond2006 wrote: »

Plus it can do good things for the profile of the game in Argentina to have regular home games against high profile test sides.

Agreed - even if they just win 1 home game they will have done well and can begin to build on it for the future.

CatFromHue

The Australian team is named:

Kurtley Beale, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Rob Horne, Anthony Fainga'a, Digby Ioane, Berrick Barnes, Will Genia,

Scott Higginbotham, David Pocock (c), Dave Dennis, Nathan Sharpe, Sitaleki Timani, Sekope Kepu, Tatafu Polota Nau, Benn Robinson .

Reserves: Stephen Moore, James Slipper, Rob Simmons, Radike Samo, Michael Hooper, Nick Phipps, Drew Mitchell.

I suppose they've no one else but I thought Ashley Cooper might play 13 with Horne at 12 and Mitchell on the wing.

From the starting 15 who played in the RWC SF there's no Elsom, Horwill, Vickermann, Moore, Alexander, Cooper, McCabe, or JOC. That's quite a turnover!

Klunk_NZ

South Africa

New Zealand is clearly superior in every single determinant aspect. every NZ player, member of the coaching staff, analyst, conditioner, medico and even bus driver is vastly better than his Australian opponent. hell, even the kiwi anthem singer is much better.

it's irrational to predict anything other than an NZ thrashing of the Wallabies.

Klunk_NZ

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

New Zealand is clearly superior in every single determinant aspect. every NZ player, member of the coaching staff, analyst, conditioner, medico and even bus driver is vastly better than his Australian opponent. hell, even the kiwi anthem singer is much better.

it's irrational to predict anything other than an NZ thrashing of the Wallabies.

quoted for reflection after the game! :pac:

(Bookies only have NZ as 5 points favourites)

freyners

South Africa

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

New Zealand is clearly superior in every single determinant aspect. every NZ player, member of the coaching staff, analyst, conditioner, medico and even bus driver is vastly better than his Australian opponent. hell, even the kiwi anthem singer is much better.

it's irrational to predict anything other than an NZ thrashing of the Wallabies.

id say the tongue was firmly in cheek for that.


Is the domestic rugby system in argentina still amatuer?

thomond2006

South Africa

freyners wrote: »

Is the domestic rugby system in argentina still amatuer?

I think so, I remember reading/hearing somewhere that there are a lot of rugby blazers in Argentina that don't want the game to go professional there.

Argentina's side to face South Africa:

Argentina:
15 Lucas González Amorosino, 14 Gonzalo Camacho, 13 Marcelo Bosch, 12 Santiago Fernández, 11 Horacio Agulla, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Nicolás Vergallo,
8 Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (c), 7 Álvaro Galindo, 6 Julio Farías Cabello, 5 Patricio Albacete, 4 Manuel Carizza, 3 Juan Figallo, 2 Eusebio Guiñazú, 1 Rodrigo Roncero.

Replacements: 16 Bruno Postiglioni, 17 Marcos Ayerza, 18 Juan Pablo Orlandi, 19 Tomás Leonardi, 20 Leonardo Senatore, 21 Martín Landajo, 22 Martín Rodríguez.

First test in 3 years for JM Hernandez, crazy to think but injury has crippled him since he starred in RWC2007. Agulla, Camacho and Amorosino is a serious back three plus Lobbe, if he's fully recovered from that nasty knee injury, is up there with the best backrowers in the world.

Also, Pierre Spies is out of the tournament with a broken hand. Nobody will be called up to replace him.

CatFromHue

I don't know about the game in Argentina but they do have a team in the Vodacom Cup, the Pampas XV, which is SA second club competition behind the Currie Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampas_XV

thomond2006

South Africa

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know about the game in Argentina but they do have a team in the Vodacom Cup, the Pampas XV, which is SA second club competition behind the Currie Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampas_XV

They won the Vodacom Cup in 2011, a lot of players are graduating from there to the national team so it seems to be doing well.

leftleg

thomond2006 wrote: »

Also, Pierre Spies is out of the tournament with a broken hand. Nobody will be called up to replace him.

with the way Spies has been playing since 2008, thats probably a good thing; Meyer seems to be ultra conservative re his selections so far;

decisions

South Africa

Is there a prediction pool for this?

thomond2006

South Africa

decisions wrote: »

Is there a prediction pool for this?

I'll start one, I'll post it in the thread in a sec.

Done: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80236171&postcount=7

CIARAN_BOYLE

South Africa

thomond2006 wrote: »

They won the Vodacom Cup in 2011, a lot of players are graduating from there to the national team so it seems to be doing well.

About 10 players a season from the Pumas get contracts in Europe. Its like a production line.

PhatPiggins

leftleg wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

Also, Pierre Spies is out of the tournament with a broken hand. Nobody will be called up to replace him.

with the way Spies has been playing since 2008, thats probably a good thing; Meyer seems to be ultra conservative re his selections so far;

Should be an all Sharks back row then which is no harm with such an inexperienced pack.

thomond2006

South Africa

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Should be an all Sharks back row then which is no harm with such an inexperienced pack.

What would the lineup be?

Morf

thomond2006 wrote: »

What would the lineup be?

Kankowski at 8, Keegan Daniel at 6(our 7), Marcell Coetzee at 7(our 6)

More likely you'll see Willem Alberts at blindside.

johne30

South Africa

Swiwi wrote: »

Looking forward to this tournament. I think it will be NZ & SA fighting for 1st & 2nd, and Aussie & Arg for 3rd & 4th. Having home & away rather than 3 games is a huge plus. As a Kiwi I potentially fear the SA forward pack, if we get parity there, I can't see us finishing anywhere other than 1st. It is a huge tournament for Australia - they have the weakest forward pack, and that could cause them some real problems in Argentina. If all their backs remain injury-free, they are in with a shot, though. For the Northern Hemisphere it a great chance to evaluate them before the Lions tour. After all the Welsh hot air, they still came up 0-3 short, but you would figure the Lions should be a better chance. Can SA get their selections right?

great to see argentina finally in the club. ye (old tri nations) would do well to respect them . the games in argentina are going to be fearsom affairs in front of crazy fans. they could undo the aussies and even S A over there they could even take on the all- black pack , but their backs are very ordinary i feel. . argentina need 2 regional sides in some sort of super 16 type tournament to really bring them on. but they are a big emerging nation for sure and could even host a R W C in the next 10 to 12 years or so. Goin to be a great championship for sure and the new language and latin culture should add something completley new to S H rugby.

yimrsg

Morf wrote: »

Kankowski at 8, Keegan Daniel at 6(our 7), Marcell Coetzee at 7(our 6)

More likely you'll see Willem Alberts at blindside.

Kankowski is in Japan and out of contention and Daniel got a spider bite and is a doubt. I reckon Potgieter will get in at 8 as he's a Bull and Meyer knows him, he's similar to Spies in that he relishes contact, is a physical one dimensional presence that doesn't pass.

Josh Strauss should be called up as he's been the form SA 8 for most of the season but is criminally overlooked. Daniel moved from 8 to open side after the injuries in the sharks backrow and Kankowski moved in to 8 and was class in the last few weeks. They're both link men in the backrow whereas Meyer tends to favour ball carriers in there. The Sharks backrow wouldn't be near as effective if it was transplanted into the current SA setup which has very little onus on finesse and speed from the forwards and instead focuses on muscle.

johne30

South Africa

yimrsg wrote: »

Kankowski is in Japan and out of contention and Daniel got a spider bite and is a doubt. I reckon Potgieter will get in at 8 as he's a Bull and Meyer knows him, he's similar to Spies in that he relishes contact, is a physical one dimensional presence that doesn't pass.

Josh Strauss should be called up as he's been the form SA 8 for most of the season but is criminally overlooked. Daniel moved from 8 to open side after the injuries in the sharks backrow and Kankowski moved in to 8 and was class in the last few weeks. They're both link men in the backrow whereas Meyer tends to favour ball carriers in there. The Sharks backrow wouldn't be near as effective if it was transplanted into the current SA setup which has very little onus on finesse and speed from the forwards and instead focuses on muscle.

england i desguise lol

PhatPiggins

yimrsg wrote: »

Morf wrote: »

Kankowski at 8, Keegan Daniel at 6(our 7), Marcell Coetzee at 7(our 6)

More likely you'll see Willem Alberts at blindside.

Kankowski is in Japan and out of contention and Daniel got a spider bite and is a doubt. I reckon Potgieter will get in at 8 as he's a Bull and Meyer knows him, he's similar to Spies in that he relishes contact, is a physical one dimensional presence that doesn't pass.

Josh Strauss should be called up as he's been the form SA 8 for most of the season but is criminally overlooked. Daniel moved from 8 to open side after the injuries in the sharks backrow and Kankowski moved in to 8 and was class in the last few weeks. They're both link men in the backrow whereas Meyer tends to favour ball carriers in there. The Sharks backrow wouldn't be near as effective if it was transplanted into the current SA setup which has very little onus on finesse and speed from the forwards and instead focuses on muscle.

When has a Saffer pack not focused on muscle? Kankowski played well in the S15 but has been exposed a few times for the Boks. I d echo your thoughts on Strauss. I wonder has he an Irish granny !!