What should be done about the IMO? (If anything)

chanste

Hi folks,

So lately I've been thinking of the ever shrinking salary that I can look forward to as an intern next year, and the ever more daunting loan which I will have to start paying. Adding to that the many taxes, medical council membership, MPS (do interns need MPS?), and so on and I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the IMO is simply too expensive to join.

Now its not just the cost. There also seems to be a fairly big deal of the IMO just not being effective enough. From where I stand it looks like its main problems are 1) A lot of people aren't joining meaning it is itself under resourced and 2) Doctors care about patients and are abused with this fact because the powers that be see doctors as having no cards to play (No one is going to let someone go without necessary care).

So anyway, I just figured maybe the board needed a proper debate about the pros and cons of joining. And if people are not in favour of the IMO, can they suggest alternatives which would be better.

First Aid Ireland

Bear in mind that they're fighting against several differnet front...politicians, managers, unions etc.

There are some doctors who have sacrificed huge amounts, profesisonally and personally, to fight for junior docs as part of the IMO.

People complain about the IMO but don't get involved with them, by and large. I have no connection with the IMO but I do know that there were junior doctors a few years ago working their nuts off (on top of being NCHDs) for junior doctor rights, but they never seem to have got the full backing of our own rank and file. For something effective to happen, all the doctors would need to collect payslips, write work diaries etc. I don't think irish doctors have the appetitite. The IMO isn't perfect, but the NCHD disaster isn't solely down to them,

HQvhs

The alternative to joining the IMO is to not join and complain from the fringes. Unfortunately it is not possible to satisfy everyone or to win industrial disoutes without some compromises. Yes, the IMO is not as effective as it could/should be, but the way to fix that is to join and contribute yourself to making it better, even if it is only in small ways such as maintaining records of the hours you work, unpaid overtime etc. Every little thing helps, but doing nothing doesn't help at all.

sam34

one big issue I had with the IMO was the cost. when I was an SR it was dearer for me to be in the IMO than it is now for me to be in the IHCA. that's a ludicrous situation given the salary difference.

2Scoops

The IMO subs are 3-5 times higher than the maximum SIPTU rates for the very highest earners. Why is this? Their accounts make for dismal reading.

RobFowl

sam34 wrote: »

one big issue I had with the IMO was the cost. when I was an SR it was dearer for me to be in the IMO than it is now for me to be in the IHCA. that's a ludicrous situation given the salary difference.

Agree it's 1k for me as a GP .. (with no real alternative)

chanste

When I think of the biggest issues facing NCHDs in ireland now, this is what I come up with:
Overtime not being paid
Contracts not being honored (See travelling doctor thread about living out allowances)
Training is poor (I don't have much personal experience of this, just an impression I get. e.g. Interns are treated as admins and so on)
Reduced wages and higher taxes but to be fair that's everyone in the country, though that doesn't mean no one should fight our corner.
EWTD not being implemented, illegal shifts are the norm.
Exodus of graduates makes life harder for those that stay in understaffed hospitals.
And my favourite... non-existant career path for most doctors. It worries me immensely how competitive it is to get higher up the ladder.

Am I missing anything major? I genuinely don't mean to have all this presented as though I'm having a go at the IMO or anybody else, but I really am just trying to understand the more important issues. I'll be the first to admit my perspective in all this is likely to be largely skewed because I'm still a student.

sillymoo

chanste wrote: »

When I think of the biggest issues facing NCHDs in ireland now, this is what I come up with:
Overtime not being paid
Contracts not being honored (See travelling doctor thread about living out allowances)
Training is poor (I don't have much personal experience of this, just an impression I get. e.g. Interns are treated as admins and so on)
Reduced wages and higher taxes but to be fair that's everyone in the country, though that doesn't mean no one should fight our corner.
EWTD not being implemented, illegal shifts are the norm.
Exodus of graduates makes life harder for those that stay in understaffed hospitals.
And my favourite... non-existant career path for most doctors. It worries me immensely how competitive it is to get higher up the ladder.

Am I missing anything major? I genuinely don't mean to have all this presented as though I'm having a go at the IMO or anybody else, but I really am just trying to understand the more important issues. I'll be the first to admit my perspective in all this is likely to be largely skewed because I'm still a student.

I think you have got the most of it there.

Personally, I am less than 2 months into my internship but I don't think I will forget the bitter taste I got in my mouth as I opened my first paycheque and saw that the living out allowance had not been paid. Something which other NCHDs (who is not a new entrant) is getting. we were warned that we were not going to get it but I supposed I has to see it (or not) to believe it.

Still undecided about joining the IMO. Really don't know what they are going to do about things. I think I'm just feeling quite dejected ATM. Trying to get used to new job, new environment, long hours and now not having our contract honoured.

Some may say "welcome to the HSE - better get used to it"' I'd rather not have to get used to it tbh.

his_dudeness

The IMO are, as pointed out above, victims of their own un-success.

Membership rates from the NCHD community are low and thus they don't have the same strength when it comes to negoitations. If membership was closer to 90% or greater, then managers etc, would have/should have to listen, as their voice would be more representative.

There is an unfortunater circle-of-death where the poor membership numbers of the IMO lead to inadequacy and concessions when it comes to negotiations, leading to a lack of faith in the organisation and a further drop in membership and so on...

There is always an ace-in-the-hole for those on the otherside of the table from the IMO knowing that any committment to all-out strike by the IMO will be result in a huge public backlash, meaning that we end up getting the raw end of the deal. Doctors are seen to have this committment to their patients that superseeds anything else, that they'd almost work for free than let a patient come to harm ( i know that's all in the hippocratic oath and all that stuff) but it might be time for us to start acting as regular employees being trampled on by an aggressive bullying employer, and union-up and take advantage the full repetoire of industrial actions available to us.

Also if membership rates weere higher, membership fees could probably go down.

BTW, i've no formal relation with the IMO apart from my membership, but have though of it.

Anyone else feel a hardline approach is needed?

his_dudeness

chanste wrote: »

....And my favourite... non-existant career path for most doctors. It worries me immensely how competitive it is to get higher up the ladder....

A big problem with junior docs taking action is the reaction of the consultants. Irish postgrad training has such a small community, especially when you go to a subspeciality, that personal impressions matter. And if we're seen to be argumentative and "trouble-makers", it quickly gets around and can make the already difficult progeression even harder!

SleepDoc

In 2009 the IMO held meetings in the RDS. Big pay cuts were on the horizon so the turnout was pretty impressive. There was a surge in membership applications. Unfortunately since 2009, pay and conditions have worsened.

The IMO have a softly softly approach to industrial relations which really can't work when you're up against a crowd of gurriers. As professionals we are entitled to have contracts honoured and work only hours allowed by law. And to withdraw our labour when that does not happen.

Australian colleagues complain about their health service and I try, really try not to tell them how lucky they are.

Traumadoc

his_dudeness wrote: »

A big problem with junior docs taking action is the reaction of the consultants. Irish postgrad training has such a small community, especially when you go to a subspeciality, that personal impressions matter. And if we're seen to be argumentative and "trouble-makers", it quickly gets around and can make the already difficult progeression even harder!

I think you are over paranoid. Most consultants were involved in strike action as NCHDs in 1999.

his_dudeness

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think you are over paranoid. Most consultants were involved in strike action as NCHDs in 1999.

Not over paranoid.

While I accept that some of the consultants now woould have been involved in the strikes of 1999, they are now at a different table. Unfortunately, the consultants would be more put out by action than the HSE, because at the end of the day, it's the consultants name over the head of the patients bed. I heard a lot of anectdotal stories of consultants being very against their NCHDs taking action the last time it was proposed, so much so that they were not going to allow them their right to strike. The IHCA should get involved with the discussions, on the side of the IMO, and not stand on the sideline suggesting that they all just get along.

And given how easily a personality clash can derail a career here in Ireland, I don't think it's overparanoid.

resus

Unions and Employers
Employers and Unions

Both really require each other to function.
IMO has such poor NCHD membership (you only had to be at the AGM!) that it is now the Employers tool.
Take a Union with MASSIVE membership, the INMO. Certainly protects its members a lot better, but still not perfect.

At the end of the day Market forces will prevail. MOST departments are struggling to recruit enough bodies to cover the floor because by enlarge there simply aren't the calibre of bodies (across healthcare occupations & professions).

It appears that the only thing working (not for the best mind you, but working as an industrial relations tool) at the moment is the staggering numbers of NCHDs heading abroad. The more that leave, the worse it gets back home, but ultimately, when there's nobody left standing, things will have to change.

IMO had its day, failed, and the rise of individual choice is winning, the ultimate choice to walk...

RobFowl

I still think if enough NCHD's joined it would be come a force again. The deivision of the IMO into comittees is a compromise but has the potential to work.
Otherwise put up with it or walk....

resus

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0807/1224321615326.html

ThatDrGuy

What the IMO needs to do is simply go away. If it casts us free and focuses on GPs and Public health ( consultants essentially have their own union ) then we can acually join a functioning union. As long as pretends to represent us then we are fecked basically trapped between a spineless unfunctioning union and some of the worst labour practices in the country. Lets say we could as a body join SIPTU tomorrow. Even if they were just as useless as the IMO well at least the bloody subscriptions would be a lot less. My cousin's husband works in HR in a hospital. They have nothing but contempt for the IMO. He told me once the radiographers threatened to take industrial action over a broken plug - forcing them to plug their machines in about 8m away from the usual spot. In contrast you can work an NCHD half to death, not pay them and break every labour law in the book and worse case scenario you get an icily polite call from the IMO threatned to take legal action sometime in 2040. The only method left is not mega-engagement with the IMO - its total disengagement. Start again afresh with a different union, establish a much better reputation.( im not touting siptu, inmo or any given one, but much easier to join one with a hospital presence already)

RobFowl

Sometimes it's not great to get what you wish for !
As a GP we have a reborn Irish Assosciation of GP's whose policies are to say the least off the wall......

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

I still think if enough NCHD's joined it would be come a force again. The deivision of the IMO into comittees is a compromise but has the potential to work.
Otherwise put up with it or walk....

Bull.

They had over 4000 nchd membrs a couple of years back and a 95% ballot for strike and they simply rolled over for the HSE, agreed to ludicrous things, obtained no improvement in working conditions, and shafted their members.

Take a look at their organisational structure:
http://www.imo.ie/about-imo/constitution-and-rules/

There shall be the following Specialty Groups:
(1) The Consultant Group
(2) The General Practitioner Group
(3) The Non Consultant Hospital Doctor Group
(4) The Public Health Doctor Group

One organisation CANNOT represent all these groups without conflict of interest. It's just not possible.

RobFowl

Fair point but NCHD's by definition are a transitory cohort. An NCHD only union would wax and wane depending on how politicially motivated the docs are at any given time.
The BMA seem to do a better (though far from ideal) role in the UK. Being a subgroup of the likes of Unison would possibly be a more representative grouping without the conflicts.
I've friend who have been told if they complain (when clearly having been abused/used/made wirk illegal hours) they will win the argument but will not work in the area again.
Bullying from some (small but influential group of Consultants/GP's) is still far to common.
The most inflential reform for newly graduated GP's was as a result of the Troika/Competition Authority insisting of changing the rules on GMS entry.
Would be interested to see what your preferred alternative is?

(Ps am an IMO memeber but not really involved or enthusiatic about them)
A friend of mine achieved some far reaching improvements for NCHD's some years ago but his career definitely was affected for the worse due to what he achieved.

opinion guy wrote: »

Bull.

They had over 4000 nchd membrs a couple of years back and a 95% ballot for strike and they simply rolled over for the HSE, agreed to ludicrous things, obtained no improvement in working conditions, and shafted their members.

Take a look at their organisational structure:
http://www.imo.ie/about-imo/constitution-and-rules/


One organisation CANNOT represent all these groups without conflict of interest. It's just not possible.

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

Fair point but NCHD's by definition are a transitory cohort. An NCHD only union would wax and wane depending on how politicially motivated the docs are at any given time.
The BMA seem to do a better (though far from ideal) role in the UK. Being a subgroup of the likes of Unison would possibly be a more representative grouping without the conflicts.
I've friend who have been told if they complain (when clearly having been abused/used/made wirk illegal hours) they will win the argument but will not work in the area again.
Bullying from some (small but influential group of Consultants/GP's) is still far to common.
The most inflential reform for newly graduated GP's was as a result of the Troika/Competition Authority insisting of changing the rules on GMS entry.
Would be interested to see what your preferred alternative is?

(Ps am an IMO memeber but not really involved or enthusiatic about them)
A friend of mine achieved some far reaching improvements for NCHD's some years ago but his career definitely was affected for the worse due to what he achieved.

My preferred alternative ? No union. Unions are outdated. Maybe a trimmed down legal fund at most. But basically private action with a qualified solicitor will achieve more than a union. Unions become self serving entities and will shaft individual members in the name of the 'greater good' (thinking of a specific case I'm aware of outside of medicine where individuals rights were trampled in order to not piss-off a multinational. This only happened because the person was in a union and the union were thinking of jobs - a pit-bull lawyer representing only this person would have torn strips out of the multinational)

First Aid Ireland

opinion guy wrote: »

Bull.

They had over 4000 nchd membrs a couple of years back and a 95% ballot for strike and they simply rolled over for the HSE, agreed to ludicrous things, obtained no improvement in working conditions, and shafted their members.

Take a look at their organisational structure:
http://www.imo.ie/about-imo/constitution-and-rules/


One organisation CANNOT represent all these groups without conflict of interest. It's just not possible.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I've worked in 3 countries where consultants and juniors were represented by the same union, as far as I can remember. The juniors in one of those conutries took industrial action, though.

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

My preferred alternative ? No union. Unions are outdated. Maybe a trimmed down legal fund at most. But basically private action with a qualified solicitor will achieve more than a union. Unions become self serving entities and will shaft individual members in the name of the 'greater good' (thinking of a specific case I'm aware of outside of medicine where individuals rights were trampled in order to not piss-off a multinational. This only happened because the person was in a union and the union were thinking of jobs - a pit-bull lawyer representing only this person would have torn strips out of the multinational)

Thanks for that. A fairly clear and well thought out position. I'm a believer in Unions but am getting disillusioned with the IMO as the months goes on.

chanste

opinion guy wrote: »

My preferred alternative ? No union. Unions are outdated. Maybe a trimmed down legal fund at most. But basically private action with a qualified solicitor will achieve more than a union. Unions become self serving entities and will shaft individual members in the name of the 'greater good' (thinking of a specific case I'm aware of outside of medicine where individuals rights were trampled in order to not piss-off a multinational. This only happened because the person was in a union and the union were thinking of jobs - a pit-bull lawyer representing only this person would have torn strips out of the multinational)

But sometimes this can be really expensive. I mean depending on what you are fighting for a legal battle can run in to the better park of €100k (I'd received such a quote in my previous career as a teacher - I later joined the union and they helped me). Its a lot of money when your not sure of a win. Sure your in the right maybe, but sure of a legal win, no.

SleepDoc

chanste wrote: »

But sometimes this can be really expensive. I mean depending on what you are fighting for a legal battle can run in to the better park of €100k (I'd received such a quote in my previous career as a teacher - I later joined the union and they helped me). Its a lot of money when your not sure of a win. Sure your in the right maybe, but sure of a legal win, no.

Like most things it is far cheaper if you do it yourself.

Rights Commissioner (Labour Relations Commission) under Section 5 of the Payment of Wages Act 1991

http://www.lrc.ie/document/More-on-the-Rights-Commission/4/745.htm

RobFowl

RobFowl wrote: »

The most inflential reform for newly graduated GP's was as a result of the Troika/Competition Authority insisting of changing the rules on GMS entry.

PS this was delayed by the IMO who tried to block it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0319/1224313527895.html

resus

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0809/1224321806412.html

Great reply

opinion guy

resus wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0809/1224321806412.html

Great reply

Two great replies I think

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

one big issue I had with the IMO was the cost. when I was an SR it was dearer for me to be in the IMO than it is now for me to be in the IHCA. that's a ludicrous situation given the salary difference.

Sam like the fact you are a mod But without being rude you are clueless about this situation

The IMO does represent all Branches of medicine at levels most people would not even know about, inputs to health policy and public policy that the mouthpiece that is the IHCA never has or has never tried to

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

The IMO does represent all Branches of medicine at levels most people would not even know about, inputs to health policy and public policy that the mouthpiece that is the IHCA never has or has never tried to

Maybe if they didn't spend so much time and money on circle jerk policy-making and vanity publications they could actually concentrate on being, you know, a trade union for doctors.

drzhivago

chanste wrote: »

When I think of the biggest issues facing NCHDs in ireland now, this is what I come up with:
Overtime not being paid
Contracts not being honored (See travelling doctor thread about living out allowances)
Training is poor (I don't have much personal experience of this, just an impression I get. e.g. Interns are treated as admins and so on)
Reduced wages and higher taxes but to be fair that's everyone in the country, though that doesn't mean no one should fight our corner.
EWTD not being implemented, illegal shifts are the norm.
Exodus of graduates makes life harder for those that stay in understaffed hospitals.
And my favourite... non-existant career path for most doctors. It worries me immensely how competitive it is to get higher up the ladder.

Am I missing anything major? I genuinely don't mean to have all this presented as though I'm having a go at the IMO or anybody else, but I really am just trying to understand the more important issues. I'll be the first to admit my perspective in all this is likely to be largely skewed because I'm still a student.

• Career path does exist here just takes longer than everywhere else
• Stop talking EWTD as if it is not here it is Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 (Irisdh legislation not a directive from Europe to be implemented at some time in future)
• People need to stand on their own two feet and stop expecting peop,e to solve the problem for them, create a solution

drzhivago

his_dudeness wrote: »

Also if membership rates weere higher, membership fees could probably go down.

BTW, i've no formal relation with the IMO apart from my membership, but have though of it.

Anyone else feel a hardline approach is needed?

But you need to be clear the IMO are not some bunch of employees in an office in Dublin, they are the junior doctors around the country

Unless they push the employees of the IMO then like any other employee they will take path of least resistance and do as asked, i.e. if not asked specifically to do something it will not be done

Bear in mind the employees of the IMO are not doctors and much as they talk about 36 hour and 48 hour shifts they have never had to work them and neither have the HSE HSEEE or whatever new group sits across the table from them.

It needs doctors to be involved to solve some of these problems but as I get older I see less and less doctors willing to give up their time to solve these problems and don't give me that SH1T that your job is too busy, it is no busier than 97 or 99 when we weren't getting paid overtime and really couldn't afford to give up locus opportunities to fight for our rights as NCHDs, we needed to do it as a group and that is what happened.

Since that time unfortunately people don't want to give up the time

drzhivago

his_dudeness wrote: »

A big problem with junior docs taking action is the reaction of the consultants. Irish postgrad training has such a small community, especially when you go to a subspeciality, that personal impressions matter. And if we're seen to be argumentative and "trouble-makers", it quickly gets around and can make the already difficult progeression even harder!

Crap

Trevor Duffy was head of Junior doctor committee in IMO, now a consultant in connolly hospital and the Chair of the Consultant committee in IMO, his perspectives will have changed regarding what are his priority fights but i am fairly confident if approached with a solid argument regarding an NCDH issue he would back it in the IMO

I wonder have they contacted him, even the NCHDs who work in his hospital

drzhivago

SleepDoc wrote: »

The IMO have a softly softly approach to industrial relations which really can't work when you're up against a crowd of gurriers. As professionals we are entitled to have contracts honoured and work only hours allowed by law. And to withdraw our labour when that does not happen.

Australian colleagues complain about their health service and I try, really try not to tell them how lucky they are.

Have been in two hospitals when strike was called, there was only one buck outside despite everyone signing up to it, that is the difficulty with any action, unless willing to back up the threat nothing will change

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

I still think if enough NCHD's joined it would be come a force again. The deivision of the IMO into comittees is a compromise but has the potential to work.
Otherwise put up with it or walk....

Agree completely here fowly old boy, if they'd not join they fight their own battles, a s a group they are much stronger and I speak now as a dirty consultant

drzhivago

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

What the IMO needs to do is simply go away. If it casts us free and focuses on GPs and Public health ( consultants essentially have their own union ) then we can acually join a functioning union. As long as pretends to represent us then we are fecked basically trapped between a spineless unfunctioning union and some of the worst labour practices in the country. Lets say we could as a body join SIPTU tomorrow. Even if they were just as useless as the IMO well at least the bloody subscriptions would be a lot less. My cousin's husband works in HR in a hospital. They have nothing but contempt for the IMO. He told me once the radiographers threatened to take industrial action over a broken plug - forcing them to plug their machines in about 8m away from the usual spot. In contrast you can work an NCHD half to death, not pay them and break every labour law in the book and worse case scenario you get an icily polite call from the IMO threatned to take legal action sometime in 2040. The only method left is not mega-engagement with the IMO - its total disengagement. Start again afresh with a different union, establish a much better reputation.( im not touting siptu, inmo or any given one, but much easier to join one with a hospital presence already)

Cant be done was tried in past, the UNION is only as strong as the members

You will find that SIPTU members will go on strike when SIPTU calls

IMO members won't

Will that change if the individual doctors join another UNion, NO NO NO

It will still be dependent on doctors getting involved and forcing the agenda otherwise how will SIPTU or ANOTHER UNION know what to do ro what to argue for

The best result is to join IMO, or those in IMO to force its hand, turn up to meetings and shout, get things changed

Hurlers on the ditch don't win games they just piss off and rabble rouse other hurlers on the ditch

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

Bull.

They had over 4000 nchd membrs a couple of years back and a 95% ballot for strike and they simply rolled over for the HSE, agreed to ludicrous things, obtained no improvement in working conditions, and shafted their members.

Take a look at their organisational structure:
http://www.imo.ie/about-imo/constitution-and-rules/


One organisation CANNOT represent all these groups without conflict of interest. It's just not possible.

It is possible and happens in many countries

Never had 4000 members or not for some considerable period of time in my opinion

What are the ludicrous things agreed to??

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

My preferred alternative ? No union. Unions are outdated. Maybe a trimmed down legal fund at most. But basically private action with a qualified solicitor will achieve more than a union. Unions become self serving entities and will shaft individual members in the name of the 'greater good' (thinking of a specific case I'm aware of outside of medicine where individuals rights were trampled in order to not piss-off a multinational. This only happened because the person was in a union and the union were thinking of jobs - a pit-bull lawyer representing only this person would have torn strips out of the multinational)

You can do some of this personally with a solicitor or without using LRC

Very dependent on your will power and ability to persevere with paperwork.

There have been one or two people who have progressed issues here

The difficulty getting involved with LRC will be it is a single issue at point in time IE

you don't get paid overtime for 1 or 2 months, uyou take the case based on that, have a hearing and win, you get the money, hospital has continued not paying your properly, you take another case etc etc

Theyc an hold out here but you cannot in general

The LRC have never held a hospital manager responsible for any of this, if they did something might change and they do have that power to hold them personally responsible which was the previous threat of the verification board for junior doctors overtime

drzhivago

SleepDoc wrote: »

Like most things it is far cheaper if you do it yourself.

Rights Commissioner (Labour Relations Commission) under Section 5 of the Payment of Wages Act 1991

http://www.lrc.ie/document/More-on-the-Rights-Commission/4/745.htm

Its single issue though and there may be multiple

• Payment of wages has a specific path to be sorted
• Working Sunday hours without appropriate payment has different emchanism
• Working excessive hours has different mechanism

Difficult to keep such actions going on all fronts

Suggest you get or the people reading who are affected get the IMO to force this issue with jul;tipple cases to LRC as the LRC has brokered these contracts and been asked to ensure that HSE actually pay what they are meant to

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

Maybe if they didn't spend so much time and money on circle jerk policy-making and vanity publications they could actually concentrate on being, you know, a trade union for doctors.

Sorry but think you are actually taking out of your rear end and missing the point the IMO is the name of the company

The people who need to do the work are the Union members, setting policy and pushing the executive (employees) to do the work and following up to make sure they do it

Fowl will have some experience of this as a man my age as we got involved to execute change

If younger docs now don't get involved and are happy paying membership to a union and then not getting the union to do anything how can they say they are unhappy


for those who are not union members what do you do to sort your own problems, and how successful have you been

have had 20 years of armchair revolutionaries and to be honest am sick to my teeth of hearing people moan and then not wanting to put their hands up to do the work to effect change

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

am sick to my teeth of hearing people moan and then not wanting to put their hands up to do the work to effect change

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

RobFowl

2Scoops wrote: »

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

I got involved representing local GP's and ended up doing nights attending meetings up to 0200 as an unpaid rep to improve conditions. 9 years on am still an unpaid director of a GP co-op working hard to improve and maintain improvements in OOH cover and working conditions.

Certainly didn't do it alone but every one can make a difference if they get involved. Sniping from the sidelines while, easy never gets results in the long term.....

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

look simple as don't pay but then sort your own problems, stop bitching to the rest of us

Second read the proposals on the table from HSE in 2008 and the results then you will see what achieved

Not ideal, you (the NCHD body) didn't get all you wanted but surgeons wanted to work long hours and they still can, medics wanted to work shorter hours and they can, the duration of on call was meant to be capped but that is also up to the individual to action and report

I can't justify the costs of the membership, I have argued internally when i was involved as a rep that the rates were too high for NCHDs at the time as a percentage of income as I was doing shifts and no overtime at the time but I didn't get anywhere back then with that

Others weer more concerned with other matters and they took precedence, end result we got a training grant and overtime back then but that has all gone now because there is not the solidarity there was

I am not an apologist I am a realist and I tried to effect change, I suspect you haven't even tried to get your own overtime paid in your own hospital because you are too afraid of what might happen

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

look simple as don't pay but then sort your own problems, stop bitching to the rest of us

You're the one who's bitching, my friend. I'm simply offering a rebuttal to your defense of the IMO.

drzhivago wrote: »

I suspect you haven't even tried to get your own overtime paid in your own hospital because you are too afraid of what might happen

:rolleyes: I do alright for myself, thanks.

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

You're the one who's bitching, my friend. I'm simply offering a rebuttal to your defense of the IMO.

"Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. "

I must have been mistaken then was this quote from you not directed at me then

2Scoops wrote: »

:rolleyes: I do alright for myself, thanks.

If you do all right what is the problem then you obviously don't need the IMO, it must be out of concern for the rest of us that you are commenting

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

I must have been mistaken then was this quote from you not directed at me then

If you want me to multi-quote your posts covering defense of IMO fees, blaming apathetic NCHDs for the impotence of the IMO, and bitching aimed me personally, I will. But tbh, they're directly above for all to see. The comment I made about 'victim blaming apologists' was a deliberate reaction to that.

drzhivago wrote: »

If you do all right what is the problem then you obviously don't need the IMO, it must be out of concern for the rest of us that you are commenting

I don't need the IMO; I need an effective trade union that uses its money well. I've obviously touched a nerve to deserve all these snide comments, I know how much you worked with them. Sorry if I offended you.

RobFowl

Mod note please remember the forum charter (no personal abuse)

opinion guy

What just happened here ?
Someone had a few Saturday night drinks and decide to try catchign up on the thread ?

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

one big issue I had with the IMO was the cost. when I was an SR it was dearer for me to be in the IMO than it is now for me to be in the IHCA. that's a ludicrous situation given the salary difference.

drzhivago wrote: »

Sam like the fact you are a mod But without being rude you are clueless about this situation

The IMO does represent all Branches of medicine at levels most people would not even know about, inputs to health policy and public policy that the mouthpiece that is the IHCA never has or has never tried to

not clueless at all, drZ. I stated clearly that the IMO was more expensive for an SR than the IHCA is for a consultant. that's an indisputable fact.
irrespective of what you claim the merits of either organisation to be, that to me is ludicrous. the cost was the main reason I left the IMO years ago, it was simply too high. you seem to acknowledge that in your own post below:

drzhivago wrote: »

I can't justify the costs of the membership, I have argued internally when i was involved as a rep that the rates were too high for NCHDs at the time as a percentage of income as I was doing shifts and no overtime at the time but I didn't get anywhere back then

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

What just happened here ?
Someone had a few Saturday night drinks and decide to try catchign up on the thread ?

Nope no drinks
Had a saturday night with no kids, on call no drinks
And yes am catching up

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

not clueless at all, drZ. I stated clearly that the IMO was more expensive for an SR than the IHCA is for a consultant. that's an indisputable fact.
irrespective of what you claim the merits of either organisation to be, that to me is ludicrous. the cost was the main reason I left the IMO years ago, it was simply too high. you seem to acknowledge that in your own post below:

The expense I don't agree with but also the comparison between the two, it will take a while to figure it our but most do eventually