Saorview Olympics Missed Opportunity

Strawberry HillBilly

Isn't a pity that Olympics was not used to showcase Saorview platform ?

Temporary channels could have been requested to have 3-4 HD streams available on Mux2 - could have been a real USP for the platform

Is it a case of no vision / drive to push the platform or simply technically / legislativly impossible ?

BTW : been on my holidays in 4 channel land and missing my normal sat/dtt combo set up

byte

I'd doubt RTE would've been allowed to have a few extra HD channels, considering they were forced to have RTE NN with no ads and RTE1+1 instead of an RTE CHoice type channel.

RTE NN could've easily been used in some capacity, but I doubt they were allowed.

Sam Russell

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

Isn't a pity that Olympics was not used to showcase Saorview platform ?

Temporary channels could have been requested to have 3-4 HD streams available on Mux2 - could have been a real USP for the platform

Is it a case of no vision / drive to push the platform or simply technically / legislativly impossible ?

BTW : been on my holidays in 4 channel land and missing my normal sat/dtt combo set up

RTE - a TV station with no vision. Dreadful pun, but oh so true.

_John C

But sure we only have Saorview because of europe. I dont think RTE would have been arsed going digital if the europeans hadnt said that we had to. So what do you expect?

Digital terrestrial television launched in the UK in 1998, Our lads did it 14 years later only when they had to!

Same crap with the state of boadband in this country. "Ah sure tis grand the way it is" :rolleyes:

galtee boy

And ye all wonder why people pay Sky a small fortune in subscriptions ! At least they deliver top quality HD, all the Olympics you want via red button on BBC and in HD quality too, Sky+, Sky Go etc etc, it may be expensive, but they sure give you value for money.

Infoanon

galtee boy wrote: »

And ye all wonder why people pay Sky a small fortune in subscriptions ! At least they deliver top quality HD, all the Olympics you want via red button on BBC and in HD quality too, Sky+, Sky Go etc etc, it may be expensive, but they sure give you value for money.

You don't need to have Sky to have the excellent BBC Olympic coverage.

Its being reported in the UK that there has been an upsurge in interest in digital TV / Red Button / Apps since the Olympics began thus the statement that Saorview missed an opportunity is spot on.

Surely Minister Rabbitte would not have blocked such an opportunity ??

OldRio

Indeed, Sky have nothing to do with the coverage.
BBC Red button all the way.

I wonder if the cost might have been the reason ?
Not sure, RTE seem to find the cash to pay for foreign soccer league coverage but why not the Olympics?

Opportunity missed.

mike65

Ah someone else posted about this topic (mine is on broadcasting board).

Does anyone know if red button viewing can be measured by BARB?

Sam Russell

Agreed. Opportunity missed indeed.

Not sure if it could have been given the go-ahead if it had been done as a 'trial' ot 'test' of the second mux, but it would have been a great way of publicising Saorview. 8 to 10 SD channels would have been possible, assuming they could get them for no extra fees.

As I said in an earler post, NO VISION.:mad:

Digifriendly

OldRio wrote: »

Indeed, Sky have nothing to do with the coverage.
BBC Red button all the way.

I wonder if the cost might have been the reason ?
Not sure, RTE seem to find the cash to pay for foreign soccer league coverage but why not the Olympics?

Opportunity missed.

Not strictly true re Sky. Sky agreed to lend out 24 extra channels to BBC for duration of Olympics.

OldRio

I refer you to Galtee boys post.

evilivor

mike65 wrote: »

Does anyone know if red button viewing can be measured by BARB?

It can be and is.

galtee boy

OldRio wrote: »

Indeed, Sky have nothing to do with the coverage.
BBC Red button all the way.

I wonder if the cost might have been the reason ?
Not sure, RTE seem to find the cash to pay for foreign soccer league coverage but why not the Olympics?

Opportunity missed.

Sky have a lot to do with coverage via red button, bear in mind most satellite viewing in this country is done via Sky, those of us on these forums know about fta alternatives, but most people out there think Sky is satellite tv !

xxyyxx

It is a shame that RTE News Now couldn't have shown alternative events to what the main channel is showing

mike65

evilivor wrote: »

It can be and is.

Thought so, I think I saw a reference to an estimated million people watching
one of the dedicated channels. Must try to find it.

Onthe3rdDay

galtee boy wrote: »

Sky have a lot to do with coverage via red button, bear in mind most satellite viewing in this country is done via Sky, those of us on these forums know about fta alternatives, but most people out there think Sky is satellite tv !

Five years ago that might have been true, but recession plus The closure of the deflectors has put people on a steep learning curve. The most unlikely of tech afraid individuals now know that they can get the BBC free.

What's most interesting are the people that have sky turned off and they find out they can still get all the channels they used to watch. They lose nothing as far as they're concerned and then they tell all their friends.

A large amount of people only ever got sky for BBC, ITV and Channel 4. Some are actually delighted to see all the ITV's appear when their box reverts to the UK EPG when the card is pulled out. (obviously subject to type of box!)

lawhec

To be fair, the BBC Olympics service via satellite & cable (in the UK anyway) is far superior to that offered on Freeview, where you have whatever coverage is on BBC1, BBC3, the main Red Button channel and also an additional Red Button channel after 7pm - while Freeview HD viewers also have an additional HD stream. They've already squeezed an additional stream on Mux B (pre-DSO) and BBCA (post-DSO areas) with a temporary measure that have sacrificed some picture quality to achieve this. I have to say though that the additional streams on satellite have been a great job.

It's also the case that the BBC are the host nation broadcaster. It's always going to put in a heck of an effort to cover as much of what is going on as possible and there's not much more they can do than what they have at present.

With RTÉ, satellite wasn't going to be a viable option for extra streams. With Saorview there are a number of logistical problems (a) the only full time multiplex currently broadcasting is "full" with no room for additional streams without adversely affecting picture quality, (b) for a multiscreen service using a second multiplex, to ensure parity of service you would need to ensure that all sites currently carrying Saorview have the ability to broadcast the second multiplex. We know the main sites and some smaller ones can, but we don't know about the rest, (c) there seems to be restrictive rules on what RTÉ can effectively broadcast outside of the two main channels by legislation which would have likely needed amendment to do so say if they wanted to temporarily use the space by News Now or RTÉ Jr/RTÉ 1+1 - and you couldn't rule out an objection by TV3 for the most frivlious of reasons, and (d) a few people objecting to RTÉ spending money on such a service that is only a "duplicate" of what the BBC is offering that many people in the state can easily get, ergo a waste of licence fee money especially when RTÉ's finances are still in the red.

AFAIK the rights to the Olympics held by RTÉ are purchased through it's membership of the EBU, whom secures rights to broadcast the Olympics in the territories of where it has full member broadcasters and redistributes rights accordingly. At least in this fashion it stops small broadcasters like RTÉ getting involved in a major bidding war with a commercial competitor in their country and they contribute a fixed percentage fee to the EBU cost for these rights.

RTÉ is at least putting a reasonable streaming coverage service via rte.ie for those that can avail of it - not surprising as with the internet they are less lumbered by technological and legislation restrictions. Personally I've got the feeling over the years that there is an element in RTÉ that would like to use modern broadcasting platforms more freely, but have been hampered in some ways, some of their own doing and some out of their effective control - the insistence of the Daíl for many years trying to get DTT in the republic running primarily as a pay-TV platform being one of them.

Cesium Clock

Just think of the amount of advertising revenue RTE could of make from 24 streams, :rolleyes:

That's why I watch BBC , to much advertising on RTE,

Is there any figures for content v advertising on RTE ?

MarkK

lawhec wrote: »

To be fair, the BBC Olympics service via satellite & cable (in the UK anyway) is far superior to that offered on Freeview, where you have whatever coverage is on BBC1, BBC3, the main Red Button channel and also an additional Red Button channel after 7pm - while Freeview HD viewers also have an additional HD stream.

Last night on Freeview HD, of the three BBC HD channels, one was showing the athletics in normal HD, the second was showing the same Athletics in 3D and the third has shut down to allow extra bandwith for the other two channels.
So last night it was pretty much the same as Saorview, one HD choice.

lawhec wrote: »

They've already squeezed an additional stream on Mux B (pre-DSO) and BBCA (post-DSO areas) with a temporary measure that have sacrificed some picture quality to achieve this. I have to say though that the additional streams on satellite have been a great job.

The extra SD stream on Freeview in post DSO areas came from shutting down BBC Parliament on Freeview for the duration of the Olympics.

ShaunC

Who is the cute blonde in the RTE studio. Was she an Olympian?

Gerry Wicklow

I may have misheard as I wasn't paying much attention, but I thought I heard Peter Collins refer to delayed coverage of one event the other morning due to licensing terms. Granted it was only delayed by about 5 minutes compared to the BBC live Coverage.

ShaunC

Never mind, I see she is the Irish 100m record holder. Pity she is not competing in the Olympics, we would have an extra stunner on show.

The Idyll Race

byte wrote: »

I'd doubt RTE would've been allowed to have a few extra HD channels, considering they were forced to have RTE NN with no ads and RTE1+1 instead of an RTE CHoice type channel.

RTE NN could've easily been used in some capacity, but I doubt they were allowed.

TV3 would have kicked up a stink about it and attempted to injuct RTE from having any extra Olympic channels, because viewers wouldn't be watching SkankTV :mad:

lawhec

MarkK wrote: »

The extra SD stream on Freeview came from shutting down BBC Parliament on Freeview for the duration of the Olympics.

Not here anyway, BBC Parliament is still broadcasting away on Freeview as normal - might be different in post-DSO area, I don't know.

Sam Russell

Could RTE have used 'testing' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) to test mux2 and show 8 to 10 SD channels of Olympic coverage?

No adverts, no special commentary, just rebroadcasting BBC coverage.

eirman

I think that the BBC Olympic coverage is the best ever ..... and best by a long shot, of any major sporting event ever held in this world .... and I don't think it will ever be bested.

Enjoy the next 7 days .... you'll never see their like again.

Jpmarn

In fairness RTE are providing a good coverage of the Olympics, 100% HD. Unfortunately they lack choice but gives a good Irish angle to the games. The BBC is great for choice but getting quite annoying with the amount of medals Team GB are winning.

zanardi

Why would we need saorview olympic channels when we can enjoy radio coverage like this:

http://t.co/A4JnG72m

ShaunC

Zzzzzzz!!!

mike65

Jpmarn wrote: »

In fairness RTE are providing a good coverage of the Olympics, 100% HD. Unfortunately they lack choice but gives a good Irish angle to the games. The BBC is great for choice but getting quite annoying with the amount of medals Team GB are winning.

All the money RTE claim they pumped into digital switch over yet we still have a sub standard service. If they were any good money would go toward providing a red button service even if it was only for these olympics. But nope....the lions share probably squandered on directors salaries no doubt.

xxyyxx

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could RTE have used 'testing' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) to test mux2 and show 8 to 10 SD channels of Olympic coverage?

No adverts, no special commentary, just rebroadcasting BBC coverage.

Or their online streams which I presume are the raw feeds directly from the Olympics

Deleted User wrote: »

All the money RTE claim they pumped into digital switch over yet we still have a sub standard service. If they were any good money would go toward providing a red button service even if it was only for these olympics. But nope....the lions share probably squandered on directors salaries no doubt.

You might have missed the bit about how they are restricted with what they can do by the government. Are you suggesting they didn't put millions into the switch over?

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

All the money RTE claim they pumped into digital switch over yet we still have a sub standard service. If they were any good money would go toward providing a red button service even if it was only for these olympics. But nope....the lions share probably squandered on directors salaries no doubt.

RTE NL have installed the masts, installed the transmitters for two muxes, installed the links and it all works.

RTE on the other hand have ignored Saorview since the last gasp of the FF rump government signed a SI on their last day in 'office' and deprived RTE of any incentive to push Saorview by preventing the start of RTE3/plus and RTE New Now from any additional advertising revenue, giving us two non-advertising channels.

Who is to blame?

xxyyxx

Sam Russell wrote: »

Who is to blame?

The last government.

xxyyxx

xxyyxx wrote: »

Or their online streams which I presume are the raw feeds directly from the Olympics




You might have missed the bit about how they are restricted with what they can do by the government. Are you suggesting they didn't put millions into the switch over?

I have absolutely no doubt, no doubt whatsoever that money was pumped into the DSO. However i would love to know exactly where every cent was allocated because you just cant trust state the run companies or Government departments in Ireland. They are probably the biggest squanderers of money and it just seems to be right across the board. Granted from the technical side of things RTE NL probably were most efficient when everything was being put into place but that is probably where the efficiency ended.

I wasnt aware that legislation was preventing them from providing such services tbh and if thats the case thats just sh*te altogether. Is our goverment in the digital age at all?

icdg

Deleted User wrote: »

I wasnt aware that legislation was preventing them from providing such services tbh and if thats the case thats just sh*te altogether. Is our goverment in the digital age at all?

There is no specific legislation (and no SI, despite what some posters are saying). However there is a requirement under s103 Broadcasting Act 2009 for the Minister for Communications, Marine, and Natural Resources to consent to
any additional services which RTÉ may offer, following a public consultation. (This consent is not given by way of statutory instrument, incidentally.)

That's the first barrier. RTÉ can't just start up any service it likes, it needs to apply to the Minister for consent and there is a process attached to that consent.

The second obstacle is the fact that the Minister can attach terms and conditions to any approval of a new service.

The third and very specific to this thread obstacle is the specific decision and comments the Minister made in his decision relating to RTÉ Plus. RTÉ One+1 was only intended to be phase 1, and RTÉ proposed that this would develop in phase 2 into a distinctive service which would include foreign imports in peak hours and the use the service to broadcast additional sports programmes which RTÉ had the rights for but could not broadcast on RTÉ One and RTÉ Two. The Minister rejected phase 2. By doing this, RTÉ may have felt that the Minister was rejecting the use of the RTÉ digital channels to show extra sports coverage.

The upshot of all of this (and RTÉ's continuing aversion to the Red Button) is that the only avenue for additional sports coverage is RTÉ.ie.

Sam Russell

icdg wrote: »

There is no specific legislation (and no SI, despite what some posters are saying). However there is a requirement under s103 Broadcasting Act 2009 for the Minister for Communications, Marine, and Natural Resources to consent to
any additional services which RTÉ may offer, following a public consultation. (This consent is not given by way of statutory instrument, incidentally.)

That's the first barrier. RTÉ can't just start up any service it likes, it needs to apply to the Minister for consent and there is a process attached to that consent.

The second obstacle is the fact that the Minister can attach terms and conditions to any approval of a new service.

The third and very specific to this thread obstacle is the specific decision and comments the Minister made in his decision relating to RTÉ Plus. RTÉ One+1 was only intended to be phase 1, and RTÉ proposed that this would develop in phase 2 into a distinctive service which would include foreign imports in peak hours and the use the service to broadcast additional sports programmes which RTÉ had the rights for but could not broadcast on RTÉ One and RTÉ Two. The Minister rejected phase 2. By doing this, RTÉ may have felt that the Minister was rejecting the use of the RTÉ digital channels to show extra sports coverage.

The upshot of all of this (and RTÉ's continuing aversion to the Red Button) is that the only avenue for additional sports coverage is RTÉ.ie.

That may be, but RTE appear to me to date their loss of interest in Saorview from that decision by the rump government of failed FF Ministers.

I am surprised the Mr Rabbitte has not seen fit to vary this decision. Afterall, he appears on RTE and TV3 quite a bit and surely is open to a bit of lobbying by both sides, and is quite able to answer for himself.

SPDUB

Sam Russell wrote: »

That may be, but RTE appear to me to date their loss of interest in Saorview from that decision by the rump government of failed FF Ministers.

What exactly is there for RTE to push in terms of content on Saorview .

A +1 channels that has pathetic hours which mean for example it can't be used to watch the late picture on Friday night or for anything in the afternoon and according to the rules that can never be anything more than that

A news channel that can barely be used to transmit anything live other than news events and the rest of the time just the previous news bulletin and because it can't raise any ad revenue there is no point developing programmes for it specifically

Elmo

RTÉ could have easily used Saorview for both the EURO 2012 and Olympics.

RTÉ News Now could have easily been used for clashing matches of the group stages of the Euro 2012 games and for the Olympics for some extra coverage.

RTÉ News Now needs a international web version and a national broadcast version. IMO.

Whatever about using Mux 2.

Sam Russell

My impression of a complete lack of interest comes from their lack of any coverage of Saorview on RTE Radio 1 programmes that could have pushed it as a platform and answered questions from listeners. Equally, there was little or no coverage from RTE television programmes.

They should use RTE News Now as the way they do impromptu coverage of events. They should show live recordings of 'The Week In Politics' and other such programmes. And use it for live coverage of the Dail. All stuff they could do, but with no advertising, it would be a drain of a cash strapped station.

Added to that, the continued sniping by TV3, and their continued threats of legal action, with the BAI giving into their every whim, would kill any enthusiasm for pushing a service that benefits TV3 but for which they refuse to pay. Kill anyone's enthusiam.

Add then the continued threat of Sky and TV3 going to the EU on competition grounds if any promotion of Saorview is in any way other than platform neutral, while Sky are running adverts that are, at the very least, misleading.

No wonder there is a low priority in RTE for Saorview. Maybe they should have called it Sourview.

STB

RTE are operating at a loss for the past few years (close on €17m in 2011). They have seen decreases in the licence fee they are given and their advertising income is down, down, down. RTE1 is the only part of the organisation that is profitable. They have to shed staff to close the gaps.

I dont think they want to operate additional stations to aggravate this situation. Tv3 (the practically state owned commercial station through IBRC parked loans) wouldn't want them getting any advertising monies to support these new services even on a temporary basis.

RTE operated on €350m in total in 2011. For comparison, the BBC's budget for last year was €5.3billion. Compare like with like please.

Elmo

I do agree that TV3 and Sky would have gone mental if RTÉ had begun airing all 12 streams on MUX2 even if RTÉ just aired the current crop of streams that are available on their website.

Overall there is a lack of interest in Saorview. We talk of a missed oppertunity for "the closest Olympic games to this country" but it is one major missed oppertunity.

Are TV3 still getting a free ride? It seems that way. If they are they have a huge advantage over all of the other suggested broadcasters including the IFB channel and OTV.

But none of the organisations involved are talking with each other.

If you mention any aspect of Digital TV you are referred to another department or another semi-state body.

DCENR have no real interest in IFB Channel or OTV, they haven't even spoken with them directly about DTT.

DAHG have no real interest in the IFB channel even though they control the IFB/BSÉ.

The House of the Oireachtas want a free ride on Soarview on a permanent basis, while spending €100,000 on more consultants, while signing a contract with PI Communications which doesn't mention DTT or Saorview (in 2011). http://thestory.ie/2012/07/17/oireachtas-contract-with-pi-communications/

RTÉ could provided a better schedule for RTÉ News Now they choose not to, while having issues around the status of the channel.

TV3 have really no interest, and their suggested channels are unlikely. And they are so anti-RTÉ that they can't talk to RTÉ without snipping.

TG4's move to HD, they didn't even contact DCENR when they should have, TG4HD must get approval from the DCENR.

It is a mess and it hasn't provided a proper choice for a FTA platform over Pay TV platform because Civil Servants are happy with Defacto channels, RTÉ can't communicate with independent broadcasters and visaversa, and Lobby groups are all to happy to insure that Pay TV remains overly popular in this country.

Ends Rant.

RTÉ could have asked DCENR that it provide extra coverage of the olympics on MUX 2, for the 2 whole weeks of the Olympics. DCENR should have made an exception to the rule for those 2 weeks.

STB

Elmo wrote: »

and Lobby groups are all to happy to insure that Pay TV remains overly popular in this country.

Not many would actually be aware of this, but I would say it is sadly very true.

The biggest sin of all is the monies that are parked with the IBRC owed by Tv3, despite the fact that TV3 is owned by a large and apparently very profitable private equity firm. It is quite likely a catch 22 as otherwise the state would embarrassingly be in ownership of a commercial television station. Hopefully the tax payer does not inherit this burden!

xxyyxx

Elmo wrote: »

I do agree that TV3 and Sky would have gone mental if RTÉ had begun airing all 12 streams on MUX2

And Sky should then be asked "what's it to do with you?".

Elmo

xxyyxx wrote: »

And Sky should then be asked "what's it to do with you?".

And sky would reply that they are investing in jobs in Ireland with a new call centre that will employ 900 new telephonists*


*because that will kick start the economy :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

What is sad is this whole area is covered by secrecy.

Are TV3 paying for Saorview at the present time?

Are RTE prevented from using RTE News Now as a proper news channel or must it be rebroadcasts only?

Are there going to be new channels? And if so, what and where are they?

When is the second mux starting? And what will be on it?

When will series link start?

Where are all these vital add-ons that are going to use MHEG5?

etc. etc. etc. etc.

xxyyxx

Elmo wrote: »

And sky would reply that they are investing in jobs in Ireland with a new call centre that will employ 900 new telephonists*


*because that will kick start the economy :rolleyes:

Oh please. Before Sky can have any say in broadcasting matters in this country it would be nice to get the tax from Irish subscriptions which will amount to a lot more than what a few jobs will provide.

Have one of these for yourself :rolleyes:

Elmo

xxyyxx wrote: »

Oh please. Before Sky can have any say in broadcasting matters in this country it would be nice to get the tax from Irish subscriptions which will amount to a lot more than what a few jobs will provide.

Have one of these for yourself :rolleyes:

They have been paying VAT in Ireland since '09, not due to anything the Dept of Comms did but purely down to new EU rules on VAT.

I was being sarcastic with my previous post. Though I still agree that Sky really shouldn't have a say.

@Sam Russell to answer any of those questions DCERN, DAHG, IFB/BSÉ, TG4, RTÉ, TV3, BAI, The Houses of the Oireachtas, IBI and other groups would need to be talking with each other and making decisions rather then continually passing the book between each other.

Apogee

Elmo wrote: »

They have been paying VAT in Ireland since '09, not due to anything the Dept of Comms did but purely down to new EU rules on VAT.

I wasn't aware of changes to VAT rules. Have you a link/reference for this?

Elmo

Apogee wrote: »

I wasn't aware of changes to VAT rules. Have you a link/reference for this?

It was mention somewhere else here on boards to a reply I gave to someone to which I was informed that the VAT issue had changed. I have asked on boards since is this the case and I was informed it was.

Anyone have a recent bill from Sky?

Apogee

I've seen several posts on boards incorrectly claiming Sky always charged Irish VAT as they are "registered" in Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/theres-no-limit-to-skys-plans-for-receptive-irish-111038.html
http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?gid=2008-10-22.470.0

I would be reluctant to believe they do now charge Irish VAT without corroboration.