Why do you believe?

YoungTrouble

Having a bit of crisis of faith at the moment.I have been Catholic all my life but am now starting to question it.

Basically,I have no idea why I previously accepted the Bible and what was said in Mass as true.When I was younger I thought that there surely must be some proof to back up my beliefs but I have no found out there is none.

I have never met Jesus or God or even talked to them.I don't see why I should believe in a man I have never met that lived thousands of years ago.

I am searching for a reason to believe but I have none.What are yours?

Thanks in advance.

skooterblue2

YoungTrouble wrote: »

I have never met Jesus or God or even talked to them.I don't see why I should believe in a man I have never met that lived thousands of years ago.

I am searching for a reason to believe but I have none.What are yours?

Thanks in advance.

Complex thread there fella. Your faith and religion and faith are two separate things. Its like having money(faith). You can deposit it where ever like the Bank or post office. The weight of your faith remains the same. But the amount your recieve back in interest varies. You cannot and will not change a 2000 year old religion in your life time. You either accept it or reject it.

As a child you accepted what you were thought. Now you are a man and if you dont get the answers you want it and fast enough you should explore your options. Life goes by so fast.

I would be worried if you did meet Jesus or if God spoke to you directly. That would mean you had mental illness. And I would be peeved if he hadnt picked me.

God does exist but there are heaps of conartist out there try to act as false agents. you need to a decent broker as they say

Onesimus

A good forum to go to for a discussion like that would be Catholic answers . You can enter the ''Ask an apologist'' section and basically tell them the same things you told us and ask them if there should be a good reason you should remain Catholic? Alternatively after having asked your question you can ''Search'' that particular forum as many have asked the same question as you in the past so you can go through and read the responses.

My reasons to believe are many but can safely say that as a young man myself who lived the hard man his whole life, suddenly began praying Our Ladys Rosary ( just one a day ) which led me on a journey to coming home.

I would invite you to do the same.

I will keep you in my prayers

Onesimus

Onesimus

I almost forgot.....there is a youth festival going on the 9th - 12th of august in clonmacnois ( Athlone ) and I have been there once. It is a fantastic place to go and there are free buses running for it too so just check with them to see if one runs through your area, it is free to go and there will be breakfast, lunch and dinner served as well as accomodation and all round the clock drinks and sandwiches. 1000's of youth show up for it, so why not go alone or drag a friend along to it? they have workshops in which you can ask questions about the faith too. You can get more details about that here

Onesimus

skooterblue2

In all fairness I think the OP is disillusioned with the whole organised religion thing.

Find a poem called the Deserata and try and live by that. Its cheap its free, go find it in a poster shop, buy Baz Luhrmans Sunscreen. that is non denominational. Non secterian. You are not obliged to anything and you get no free meals.

There are no free meals in this life

philologos

Onesimus wrote: »

A good forum to go to for a discussion like that would be Catholic answers . You can enter the ''Ask an apologist'' section and basically tell them the same things you told us and ask them if there should be a good reason you should remain Catholic? Alternatively after having asked your question you can ''Search'' that particular forum as many have asked the same question as you in the past so you can go through and read the responses.

My reasons to believe are many but can safely say that as a young man myself who lived the hard man his whole life, suddenly began praying Our Ladys Rosary ( just one a day ) which led me on a journey to coming home.

I would invite you to do the same.

I will keep you in my prayers

Onesimus

We should discuss this here as well though in all fairness. I'm going to mull this over and reply to the OP.

OP: If you're interested in why Christians can trust the Bible as being authentic and reliable check the two links beside "Why trust the Bible?" on my signature.

Fanny Cradock

Hi YoungTrouble,

there is was an excellent conference held last year on the issue of doubt - and how as Christians we face it. The first talk by John Lennox is very good.

http://www.rzim.eu/doubt-training-day-oxford-audio

If you are looking for a defence of the faith (called an apologetic) then you should dip into Apologetics 315. There are loads of interesting resources that give positive arguments for the existence of god and the reliability of the Bible and arguments against other worldviews such as atheism.

Then there are books like C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, which provides an excellent introduction to some of the reasons for God.

Finally, pray.

Malena72

Onesimus I have heard that there will be a brilliant speaker at that Youth Festival, you may have heard of him or you can google his name. He is John Pridmore from UK, he was a gangster, into drugs big time, carried around a machete with him, he has a very good testimony of his conversion, and I heard he is brilliant with young people.

There is a Youth Festival in Medjugorje at the moment, my friends are there, there have been 70-80 thousand youth from all corners of the world there each day but tonight there must be up to 100,000. I google 'mladi fest medjugorje' and clicked on radio mir and then clicked on right hand side the english flag to be able to hear the Mass in english, it is amazing, and later around 8.30 our time there will be a concert/play something like that on a huge stage, given by recovering drug addicts, I will definitely have a look at this, its meant to be brilliant!

Onesimus

philologos wrote: »

We should discuss this here as well though in all fairness. I'm going to mull this over and reply to the OP.

OP: If you're interested in why Christians can trust the Bible as being authentic and reliable check the two links beside "Why trust the Bible?" on my signature.

I was not restricting discussion from happening here, I was simply giving him other options to explore as well as this forum and seeing as he is Catholic and was starting to question it, I felt he might want to speak with a more plentiful sort of Catholics over at Catholic answers in whom some are now feeling the way he is, and some who - once upon a time - felt the way he did and can offer him their stories as there are not many Catholics here on this forum to go around and even if there was a lot of Catholics here it's still always nice to allow the poster to explore his options.

Onesimus

Malena72 wrote: »

Onesimus I have heard that there will be a brilliant speaker at that Youth Festival, you may have heard of him or you can google his name. He is John Pridmore from UK, he was a gangster, into drugs big time, carried around a machete with him, he has a very good testimony of his conversion, and I heard he is brilliant with young people.

There is a Youth Festival in Medjugorje at the moment, my friends are there, there have been 70-80 thousand youth from all corners of the world there each day but tonight there must be up to 100,000. I google 'mladi fest medjugorje' and clicked on radio mir and then clicked on right hand side the english flag to be able to hear the Mass in english, it is amazing, and later around 8.30 our time there will be a concert/play something like that on a huge stage, given by recovering drug addicts, I will definitely have a look at this, its meant to be brilliant!

I don't believe I heard of him but it sounds good, my hands are tied with other commitments so I am unable to make the youth festival this year.

I love Medjugorje, and have been there twice. I am aware of there being a youth festival in august but I don't know how they stick the heat as it is the hottest month in Medjugorje :eek:. I prefer to go with a mixed bag of old fogies and youngsters in May and October ( especially october as the weather is just about right ).

Great place though with all its healings ( both spiritual and physical ) as well as conversions and great testimonies from a mixed bag of religious and non-religious who just went there out of curiosity and came home on fire for Christ.

benej10

Hi Young trouble,

I have been going through a similar stage recently with my faith as well. Although I do believe in God, I do have problems believing all the teachings from the church and whats written in the bible and I will probably continue to question them and I have become very indifferent to attending mass.

There is one thing though I do take from Christianity and that is the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Even if they are over 2000 years old they are timeless and are as applicable now as they were then. I do take a lot from them as I find them very practical in everyday living and are very useful in making society work (if everybody used them). I do want to believe in the miracles, transubstantiation and even the ressurection but miracles just dont happen unfortunately. I do think though that if you read the parables and teachings of Jesus there is a great message there and it can bring about real change if you give it time.

lmaopml

YoungTrouble wrote: »

Having a bit of crisis of faith at the moment.I have been Catholic all my life but am now starting to question it.

I had a crisis of faith that lasted almost twenty years, (it was a case of the outside world and it's influence, and the idea I had to sacrifice any kind of joy, or so I thought..lol....I had a mediocre understanding, certainly a seed, but not enough to be able to relate to it or quantify it - even to myself - In fact, the people who are my nearest and dearest rather annoyed me - and I thought it was 'their' fault..lol.... so please don't think it's a 'bad' thing to go through, sometimes a crisis is just what is necessary - anybody who 'doubts' sincerely, will with a little grace 'seek' sincerely too...He has his ways

Basically,I have no idea why I previously accepted the Bible and what was said in Mass as true.When I was younger I thought that there surely must be some proof to back up my beliefs but I have no found out there is none.

This part of your post seems to be relating something that we don't probably know on the forum to be able to respond to properly - the 'now I have found out there is none' seems like you are relating your experience without really relating it; which by the way, you don't have to either...you posted a thread, I hope it helps some.

I have never met Jesus or God or even talked to them.I don't see why I should believe in a man I have never met that lived thousands of years ago.

Well, if you once believed and now find it difficult, you must have a basic understanding of Jesus and his message that you are absolutely precious to him. Did you ever know 'prayer'? Real 'prayer'? Even a small child can pray - you can pray simply by thinking of Jesus, even saying 'Jesus' all on it's own is a prayer to ask for help and even if you can't articulate your needs, well he knows them -

I am searching for a reason to believe but I have none.What are yours?

That is a GREAT question!

If I am entirely honest, my reasons for 'belief' came to me not in a thunderbolt of clear understanding - or indeed because of some 'manifestation' of God or Jesus in the physical way that you mention above when you say you never 'met' Jesus.

It took a lot of time for me, and a lot of prayer and seeking and questioning and building up, sometimes on literature that I never knew existed actually, and a risk on my behalf - actually risk is the wrong word - the 'stop - wait a minute here moment' for me was when I met 'clever' Christians, or saw something I knew was after going rather 'dim' in me reflected in them -there was a time when I believed they were all superstitious...well idiots Nice lmaopml!!!! There are some that will make you crazy, but there are also people who 'reflect' Christ - I can't explain it, neither could I deny that they weren't in fact - idiots..lol....

I thought I was with the 'in' people and being young and learning at uni etc. I didn't really take the whole thing serious at all...

It took a long while, and some searching and reading and just observing and experience in life for me to finally 'see' Christ and recognise how he decided the best way to bring me home was to keep tapping at my shoulder. Tap, tap, tap - I've no doubt he's tapping on yours - I think it starts out with prayer and then to research your 'doubts' and take responsibility for learning, for seeking, and eventually one recognises (with tears in my case) how it wasn't me that learned anything, it was by the Grace of God that he sent me on that path in order to 'see' his hand in my life - and I learned a lot about myself too.

Keep praying. Keep a dialogue - and remember that it's ok to feel doubt, it sharpens the steel of your faith. Take it one day at a time, and don't beat yourself up, but persevere.

Best of luck, I'll keep you in my prayers.....

and nice thread too. Very honest.

Northclare

I can identity with your feelings,I'm seeking something spiritual iv tried Islam,Christianity,Buddhism,newage spirituality and still looking for answers.

I think sometimes I'm more instinctively a pagan iv a great connection with the land and sea.

I love nature etc and if I find an answer in the last few weeks of my life so be it.

Be careful of organised religion as it's tricky Jesus never asked for donations or told anyone what to do,it's all suggestions...

I live a fairly carefree life and have my ups and downs.

If I was born in the middle east I'd be a Muslim,the far east maybe a Hindu or Buddhist,Ireland an Atheist,Catholic or Anglican.

It's up to you God will find you in his own time let it happen.

Just be careful of organized religion.

Anyone seeking donations for Gods work is not working for God but only for their own self interest.

PDN

Northclare wrote: »

Jesus never asked for donations or told anyone what to do,it's all suggestions...

You are kidding, right?

Fanny Cradock

Sorry to say it Northclare, but after reading what you wrote I would question if you actually ever understood Christianity before you rejected it. That's the key, isn't it? Researching something to the point that you can in good conscience reach a point where you can make an informed decision. That is certainly what I would encourage the OP to do. To look at the philosophical arguments for God, the historical Biblical evidence, scientific evidence, personal accounts, the person of Jesus and so on. The goal here would be to decided if there is a God, and if so can we know him, and if this is the case is Jesus God incarnate.

You might enjoy Basic Christianity by John Stott. For more advance books on Christianity then books like Simply Jesus and Simply Christian both by Tom Wright are good places to start. If you aren't into reading then Don Carson gave an excellent series of talks entitled The God Who Is There .

Halloran springs

benej10 wrote: »

I do take a lot from them as I find them very practical in everyday living and are very useful in making society work (if everybody used them)

What's your stance on issues like homosexuality, abortion, working on sundays, etc. "making society work" in relation to the teachings of Jesus in the gospels?

Northclare

PDN I'm not kidding.
Do I look like I'm Kidding do I

What brand of Christianity are you affiliated with ?

skooterblue2

North Clare
I think you have a great grasp of religion.
Its like business or communism just differently packaged.
I mean you have your head quarters (New York/London/Paris/Tokyo) (Rome/Jerusalem/Mecca) (Moscow/Bejing/Cuba).
Three greeat leaders, three great heretics, three great martyrs for the cause. A central all explaining text.

Then you have the franchises working indpendently all with the same origins but with some ties (easter Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian)(North Korea/ Venezuela/ Belarus). Its all a find out how much they got shake them down for as much as we can take and then reharvest next year.

Not sure thats what Jesus wanted but thats how it happens

lmaopml

Northclare wrote: »

I can identity with your feelings,I'm seeking something spiritual iv tried Islam,Christianity,Buddhism,newage spirituality and still looking for answers.

I think sometimes I'm more instinctively a pagan iv a great connection with the land and sea.

You know Northclare, that God pretty much said that his majesty is partly manifested in the 'beauty' of nature - it should be obvious to us -

I often think of 'nature' as a sister and not a 'Mother' - Perhaps that's the difference between the soul who finds themselves praising the Sun and the Moon and the Christian who sees more..The difference between the Pagan and the Christian.


In saying that, I cannot deny that I went on the Buddhism journey, super cool me, free soul, blah blah, I thought it was very interesting...

Christ calls one to the real world and asks one to dwell on it for others for neighbours, and THAT is Christianity. Your love for neighbour, and self sacrifice for them is where the Kingdom of Heaven finds it's foundation - it's building blocks. It's not all about 'me' - it's all about me finding me in the helpless, the homeless, the weak, and ultimatley finding myself in them.

skooterblue2

Trolling deleted

lmaopml

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Homosexuality: Jesus would say live and let live but most important be Fabulous.

Abortion: Every life is precious but certain people should not be allowed have children like severely Ill people like Drug addicts, Schizophrenics.

I think not for religions sake but for general health you should have one days a week recreation. if you work in food or hospitality or front line services you just have to deal with not getting your day off.

Do unto others as they would do unto you

Invasion of the New Age Spiritualist Movement....maybe their forum doesn't get enough hits???

Northclare

Maybe me and skooter are more balanced

I'll try anything but I can see through the BS of organizations, Jesus would destroy the catholic church with all it's corruption,sure didn't he get annoyed with the guys selling on the Sabbath

YoungTrouble

I don't see how people can pick and choose what they believe in the Bible either.

I don't believe homosexuals are evil so therefore I don't believe the Bible to be true.

lmaopml

Northclare wrote: »

Maybe me and skooter are more balanced

I'll try anything but I can see through the BS of organizations, Jesus would destroy the catholic church with all it's corruption,sure didn't he get annoyed with the guys selling on the Sabbath

Northclare it wouldn't surprise me if you get a few 'thanks' for this - even on the Christianity forum.

However, I'm a Catholic, I will be a Catholic until my dying day, and I love Jesus Christ as my own - despite what you think about throwing a division between forum members here - well, heck you've only served to make it stronger among my Christian brothers and sisters.

Deal with it!

...while you are at it, perhaps you could be a little more honest sometimes about your own belief or lack of and not approach the posters on this forum like they are not dealing with their own stuff too? That would be nice - honesty is really nice sometimes. You are a Pagan, a Spiritualist - you have a forum - but if you seek Christ and don't want to cause divilment then and only then will subtle trolling not be noticed..

newmug

YoungTrouble wrote: »

I am searching for a reason to believe but I have none.What are yours?

Thanks in advance.

Why do I believe? Well there's no one reason, but let me try to express some of how I feel about Jesus. (And yes, there is proof the man actually existed, not much proof to say he was supernatural, although I still whole-heartedly believe!)

Did you ever look up to someone when you were a kid? Did you ever think your dad was the coolest, most handsome, toughest, soundest man in the world?

Then when you get older, did you ever meet a real leader, like an army man, eg Micheal Collins, or a sprotsman, Brian O'Driscoll, someone who you admire for their discipline, for dedicating every split second of their life to a cause?

Now take Jesus. He was all those things and more. He was the original passive hippy, yet probably one of the most conservative people who ever lived. He flew in the face of the establishment at the time, often causing crowds to gather just to hear his speeches. He said things like "do unto others as you would like them to do unto you" and "turn the other cheek", yet he gave out strict rules and laws to follow if you wanted to get into Heaven, and only God could help you if you broke them!

Sound to the poor, the sick, the old, humble to the point of allowing himself to be executed to change people's view on things. Even if you dont believe the supernatural bit, you cant deny that Jesus was one incredible man. The more I look into his life, the deeper my faith gets, and the more I believe. You should do the same.

skooterblue2

YoungTrouble wrote: »

I don't see how people can pick and choose what they believe in the Bible either.

The bible wasnt written by jesus or the four evangelists. It is 72 books (I think). So it was much larger than it once was. I was written by many men over a period of time and after the council of Nicea it was edited. Its was transcribed and meaning have lost and changed. So you can pick any passage and then contradict it with another. "An eye for an Eye and a tooth for a tooth" Do you think this was the message of Jesus "when he said turn the other cheek"?

You were Confirmed? you need to use your own judgement.

lmaopml

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The bible wasnt written by jesus or the four evangelists. It is 72 books (I think). So it was much larger than it once was. I was written by many men over a period of time and after the council of Nicea it was edited. Its was transcribed and meaning have lost and changed. So you can pick any passage and then contradict it with another. "An eye for an Eye and a tooth for a tooth" Do you think this was the message of Jesus "when he said turn the other cheek"?

You were Confirmed? you need to use your own judgement.

Do you really believe, think about it for one sincere second....

That 'Jesus Christ' and what happened 2000 years ago with 'one' man, 'one' person - could possibly not have been something extraordinary? In order to have survived the rise and fall of persecution - whole families? There are still families today who live in fear despite a comfy presumption that the world is exactly how it is where you landed on it.

Start with that, and then go figure out the rest - and please don't ever write off Christ, there are so many who will be only too glad to take a morsel of faith away from you...don't let them - be yourself, be true, be not what is only 'expected', but stand out and be more than that...unique!

Northclare

lmaopml wrote: »

Northclare wrote: »

Maybe me and skooter are more balanced

I'll try anything but I can see through the BS of organizations, Jesus would destroy the catholic church with all it's corruption,sure didn't he get annoyed with the guys selling on the Sabbath

Northclare it wouldn't surprise me if you get a few 'thanks' for this - even on the Christianity forum.

However, I'm a Catholic, I will be a Catholic until my dying day, and I love Jesus Christ as my own - despite what you think about throwing a division between forum members here - well, heck you've only served to make it stronger among my Christian brothers and sisters.

Deal with it!

...while you are at it, perhaps you could be a little more honest sometimes about your own belief or lack of and not approach the posters on this forum like they are not dealing with their own stuff too? That would be nice - honesty is really nice sometimes. You are a Pagan, a Spiritualist - you have a forum - but if you seek Christ and don't want to cause divilment then and only then will subtle trolling not be noticed..

The difference between my spirituality and your religion is I can turn the other cheek.
I don't get emotionally charged or angry at your reaction.

I'm no Angel but I can be wrong sometimes.

Unlike you I don't do other people's thinking for them,when did I say people are not dealing with their own stuff when ????

Have I ever made any accusation at you on a personal level ???

Have I ever said I don't believe in Jesus, I do accept Jesus's teachings but not from the Catholic churches ways of teaching.

Your resentment twoards me and other spiritual people here isn't in line with Jesus's teachings.

I can see now

newmug

YoungTrouble wrote: »

I don't see how people can pick and choose what they believe in the Bible either.

I don't believe homosexuals are evil so therefore I don't believe the Bible to be true.

Picking and choosing bits from the Bible? You're going to open a can of worms there between Catholics and non-Catholics on the forum! The Catholic point of view is that we accept the Bible in its entirety. Maybe you just dont understand it enough?

As for homosexuals being evil, even the Bible doesn't say that! It says that gay sex is an "abomination", in other words, something against nature - which technically is true. Thats not to say that its wrong to be gay, let alone evil.

But if you kill, that is wrong in the eyes of God. Dont ask me why, I'd love to see Al-Assad being killed, to me it would be justice. But Jesus said not to kill people, therefore if I want to be like him and live the legendary life he had, I'll have to refrain from killing certain people. If you steal, that is wrong in the eyes of God. Again, I'd love to rob the banks that robbed us, but Jesus said not to, so I wont. If you have gay sex, that is wrong in the eyes of God. Now I've never wanted gay sex myself, but the same logic applies - if Jesus said to do / not to do something, and if I want to emmulate his life, well then I better live by his rules.

But if you do kill / steal / have gay sex / whatever, that doesn't mean you're doomed. Jesus said that God the father will forgive you, IF you surrender to the fact that he is God, you are his servant, you did wrong and you're genuinely sorry.

I'm giving this in very simplistic terms, but I hope I'm getting the picture across to you. I think maybe you have the basics, but maybe you just dont understand enough?

lmaopml

Northclare wrote: »

The difference between my spirituality and your religion is I can turn the other cheek.
I don't get emotionally charged or angry at your reaction.

I'm no Angel but I can be wrong sometimes.

Unlike you I don't do other people's thinking for them,when did I say people are not dealing with their own stuff when ????

Have I ever made any accusation at you on a personal level ???

Have I ever said I don't believe in Jesus, I do accept Jesus's teachings but not from the Catholic churches ways of teaching.

Your resentment twoards me and other spiritual people here isn't in line with Jesus's teachings.

I can see now

To be honest, I would be happy if you even remotely understood Jesus teachings and didn't want to express hatred at the same time, or incite division. They just don't mesh!

Perhaps I'm a little wrong but you seem to be a Pagan who is exploring Christianity and decides to spread a little venom sometimes -

Then again I could be way off-

I am off for a couple of weeks with my family in Ireland, I will praise God for the beautiful sound of the sea and for the raging of the elements - and God willing we get a little sunshine too to make a sand castle, and eat some sand infested crunchy picnics..lol...

Northclare, I wish you the best. I will not apologise for not believing you are more a seperatist than one who unites in Christ.

The OP has been well lost in this - perhaps that's something we could both think on - I'm a Christian speaking as a Christian - are you?

Northclare

lmaopml wrote: »

Northclare wrote: »

The difference between my spirituality and your religion is I can turn the other cheek.
I don't get emotionally charged or angry at your reaction.

I'm no Angel but I can be wrong sometimes.

Unlike you I don't do other people's thinking for them,when did I say people are not dealing with their own stuff when ????

Have I ever made any accusation at you on a personal level ???

Have I ever said I don't believe in Jesus, I do accept Jesus's teachings but not from the Catholic churches ways of teaching.

Your resentment twoards me and other spiritual people here isn't in line with Jesus's teachings.

I can see now

To be honest, I would be happy if you even remotely understood Jesus teachings and didn't want to express hatred at the same time, or incite division. They just don't mesh!

Perhaps I'm a little wrong but you seem to be a Pagan who is exploring Christianity and decides to spread a little venom sometimes -

Then again I could be way off-

I am off for a couple of weeks with my family in Ireland, I will praise God for the beautiful sound of the sea and for the raging of the elements - and God willing we get a little sunshine too to make a sand castle, and eat some sand infested crunchy picnics..lol...

Northclare, I wish you the best. I will not apologise for not believing you are more a seperatist than one who unites in Christ.

The OP has been well lost in this - perhaps that's something we could both think on - I'm a Christian speaking as a Christian - are you?

I never expressed hatred or insight division have I ???

I'm a human being and I'm happy out tbh.

Enjoy your holidays and if your passing through North Clare and need directions to our wonderful Pagan and Christian Monastic sites just PM me.
There's some fantastic things to be seen.

Fr Teds house is our most popular historical site

lmaopml

Northclare wrote: »

I never expressed hatred or insight division have I ???

It's the way you read I'm afraid. As a Catholic reading on the Christianity forum, and I'd imagine as any Christian you always seem to not be happy go lucky but to spit venom.

I'm a human being and I'm happy out tbh.

Yeah, I know you are human being posting - I'll keep you in my prayers Northclare, perhaps you could pray for me too..

Enjoy your holidays and if your passing through North Clare and need directions to our wonderful Pagan and Christian Monastic sites just PM me.
There's some fantastic things to be seen.

I've been to Clare many years ago and I've been lucky enough to visit the sites - The Crannog village, Ennis, etc. etc. and of course the 'Sea view' - you guys are incredibly lucky!!

Fr Teds house is our most popular historical site

Fr. Ted, may he RIP - did a lot for 'laughing' at ourselves and stereotypes - and even more for spurring an understanding that is not only a sneer on our own. Cool show though - very funny. Irish people are dumb and Catholic.

I prefer the sea view though North Clare.

PDN

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The bible wasnt written by jesus or the four evangelists. It is 72 books (I think). So it was much larger than it once was. I was written by many men over a period of time and after the council of Nicea it was edited. Its was transcribed and meaning have lost and changed. So you can pick any passage and then contradict it with another. "An eye for an Eye and a tooth for a tooth" Do you think this was the message of Jesus "when he said turn the other cheek"?

You were Confirmed? you need to use your own judgement.

Seriously, man. Your best option would be to read a history book rather than The Davinci Code. But failing that, look up the First Council of Nicea on wikipedia.

philologos

Textual scholarship shows that the New Testament was written within a lifetime of Jesus. It also shows that the first books of the New Testament were written by a convert to Christianity (Paul of Tarsus). Paul's works are particularly useful to show that much of what was written in the Gospels was believed by Christians from the beginnings of Christianity. Please check out here, and here and let me know what's wrong with my argument.

One of the main things that brought me to trust in Jesus was merely a consideration of sin. The Biblical description of sin is the most accurate description of wrongdoing I have ever read. Namely that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and as a result are deserving of God's righteous condemnation, but that God in His mercy sent Jesus to die in our place on the cross, taking the penalty that we deserved to pay so that we might not have to, and by rising again we can be born again in His name. This is the only true hope that people have on this earth. This is the only hope we have of any form of eternity.

Another thing that brought me to trust in Jesus was considering how morality works. People don't believe or work on the basis of subjective morality no matter how much they might tell you they do. If you are wronged, you believe that you are objectively wronged, and you claim "You should know better". Why do we do this if we have no guarantee that there is a common source of morality between us? If it was simply that I had moral code A in my brain, and you had moral code B in your brain we wouldn't do this. Or is the reasonable suggestion that we have a conscience, and there is a moral law between us, and as a result there is a moral law giver.

As others have said another reason is Jesus' life. Jesus' mission, Jesus' purpose, and Jesus' call to save, His absolute mercy towards others even with sinners, tax collectors, drunkards, gluttons, prostitutes and so on is exemplary. What is even more exemplary is that He went to the cross to save us from sin.

Finally, the most important reason why I believe is that I was changed by God. My heart was completely opposed to Him, and I prayed asking if He was there and asked Him to show me who He was. I had very little expectation that anything of substance would come from this, but yet it did. I read the Bible in a year, and was utterly convicted of my sin before God, and I repented and put my trust in Jesus as Lord, and resolved to commit the rest of my life to serving Him.

One question to ask you OP is, are you more interested in finding out what is true, or are you more interested in believing what you want to be true?

I'd really recommend the links that Fanny Craddock put up there. In particular I recommend Don Carson's talks from The God Who Is There on The Gospel Coalition.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss about any other questions. I'd also like to say feel free to join in on the Mark discussion series (see my signature) we've had on this forum, there's going to be another installment very soon. We're doing a Bible study through Mark's Gospel at the moment. What I would say is, if you have any questions about the reliability of Scripture, there are good reasons why we can trust that, but the only reason you are actually going to end up trusting Scripture is through reading it and coming to God's word yourself.

I didn't have a clue about the Bible before I read it, and would have had a much lower opinion of it than I do now, but it was only through reading it that I was completely transformed by it.

skooterblue2

PDN wrote: »

Seriously, man. Your best option would be to read a history book rather than The Davinci Code. But failing that, look up the First Council of Nicea on wikipedia.

I am not without fallibility. Maybe I am out on the council of Nicea. My main point is that that Somewhere along the line the "Bible" was much, much bigger than we know it today and someone edited it.

Would have been interesting to read St Peters views seeing as he was the one who inherited the leadership of the church. What about the Gospel according to (St.?) Judas?. I believe there are part of the Dead sea Scrolls hanging around BallyDung Manor. We dont hear actually what Jesus said its is all collection of recollections and word of mouth stories.

As for me reading the DaVinci code I havent read it but I wouldnt say I am totally adverse to other ideas about the church teachings.

Every day people are leaving the Church and returning back to God.

PDN

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am not without fallibility. Maybe I am out on the council of Nicea. My main point is that that Somewhere along the line the "Bible" was much, much bigger than we know it today and someone edited it.

No it wasn't. Have you any evidence for such a claim?

Would have been interesting to read St Peters views seeing as he was the one who inherited the leadership of the church.

No, I don't believe he did inherit any such thing.

What about the Gospel according to (St.?) Judas?.

What about it? It was written well over a century after the New Testament books. and was never considered part of the Bible. What has it got to do with anything under discussion here?

I believe there are part of the Dead sea Scrolls hanging around BallyDung Manor.

There's no great secret about what the Dead Sea scrolls contain. Google is your friend. The one thing the Dead Sea Scrolls do show us is that people in those times were capable of transcribing and copying sacred books with great accuracy, exploding the myth that they must have changed greatly over the centuries.

We dont hear actually what Jesus said its is all collection of recollections and word of mouth stories.

That's what history generally is.

neemish

newmug wrote: »

Picking and choosing bits from the Bible? You're going to open a can of worms there between Catholics and non-Catholics on the forum! The Catholic point of view is that we accept the Bible in its entirety. Maybe you just dont understand it enough?

Really? Where did you study scripture can I ask?

From what i can dredge up from my studies, Catholics accept that the Bible is truth, yes. But that does not necessarily mean that everything in the Bible is historically/literally true. This is why Genesis can contain TWO versions of creation without being contradictory.

With the Old Testament in particular, it must be remembered that this was a culture trying to contain its history and traditions in the face of slavery. Read some of the Laws. Do you honestly think it is alright to leave a disobedient child at the city gates?

Every Book of Scripture must be interpreted in light of the culture for which it was written. St. Paul wasn't writing for 21st Century Irish People! That doesn't mean he has nothing to say. It means that we have to be careful how we interpret him.

Catholics depend on the Bible, Tradition (the teachings of the Church Fathers) and the Magesterium. If we rely on one more than the other, we leave ourselves on very dangerous ground.

skooterblue2

PDN wrote: »

No it wasn't. Have you any evidence for such a claim?


No, I don't believe he did inherit any such thing.


What about it? It was written well over a century after the New Testament books. and was never considered part of the Bible. What has it got to do with anything under discussion here?


There's no great secret about what the Dead Sea scrolls contain. Google is your friend. The one thing the Dead Sea Scrolls do show us is that people in those times were capable of transcribing and copying sacred books with great accuracy, exploding the myth that they must have changed greatly over the centuries.


That's what history generally is.

Peter was the first pope, there fore inherited. The Bible is a secondary historical document. Like a painting or written text but different to a video or Picture. There are many bibles.. the King James (Prodestant bible) being one of them, ever heard of Lilleth ?. Every time the bible was transcribed it either gained a bit or lost a bit somewhere. then you have the Eastern Orthodox bible, the Tora which is part of the bible.
I could go on...

Yes the bible has changed over the years. there is Primary and Secondary History. The primary stuff is as it is, the secondary stuff is well depends on what you want to read into it. Like the painting of the burning of the Bastille? but there are documents that prove a builder spent 9 months after demolishing it. People rising from the dead and seas parting, rivers turning to blood wouldnt want to be taken too literally. The same with a guy being flogged, crucified, legs broken and a spear thrust through the side and returning to life after 3 days is bit much.

It is more important that you treat others as you would like to be treated rather than arguing if there ever was a garden of Eden and whether we should treat Creationism with the same weight as we do Biology and Physics on the Leaving cert.


..... And as for them folks who say we are descended from monkeys ....!

Fanny Cradock

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Peter was the first pope, there fore inherited. The Bible is a secondary historical document. Like a painting or written text but different to a video or Picture. There are many bibles.. the King James (Prodestant bible) being one of them, ever heard of Lilleth ?. Every time the bible was transcribed it either gained a bit or lost a bit somewhere. then you have the Eastern Orthodox bible, the Tora which is part of the bible.
I could go on...

The funny thing, skooterblue2, is that further we get away from the actual events described in the NT the closer we get to the original texts. The translators who wrote the KJ Bible had fewer manuscripts then we do today, and those they did have were from much later periods. We have since discovered many more manuscripts and papyri and these date back much closer to the events they record. Take a trip to the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin if you want to see some of the oldest fragments of the NT currently known to exist.

Now if you are worried about our English Bibles not accurately rendering the meaning of the oldest manuscripts the happy news is that you can learn Konie Greek for yourself. If you are really interested in exploring this further then Daniel Wallace is a good place to start.

Fanny Cradock

skooterblue2 wrote: »

People rising from the dead and seas parting, rivers turning to blood wouldnt want to be taken too literally. The same with a guy being flogged, crucified, legs broken and a spear thrust through the side and returning to life after 3 days is bit much.

It is more important that you treat others as you would like to be treated rather than arguing if there ever was a garden of Eden and whether we should treat Creationism with the same weight as we do Biology and Physics on the Leaving cert.


..... And as for them folks who say we are descended from monkeys ....!

I couldn't let this slip. Yes, people believe in things like God and the resurrection of Jesus. I'd be one of them. Saying that these beliefs - which I take to be grounded in evidence based faith - are "a bit much" is not offering an argument as to why we should take your opinion seriously. Rather you are just informing us your personal preference for naturalistic explanations over supernatural ones. Well, I prefer chocolate flavoured icecream to banana flavour.

As for Creationism and monkeys - what have they got to do with the topic of this thread? Diddly squat as far as I can tell.

skooterblue2

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, people believe in things like God and the resurrection of Jesus. I'd be one of them. Saying that these beliefs - which I take to be grounded in evidence based faith - are "a bit much" is not offering an argument as to why we should take your opinion seriously. Rather you are just informing us your personal preference for naturalistic explanations over supernatural ones. Well, I prefer chocolate flavoured icecream to banana flavour.

As for Creationism and monkeys - what have they got to do with the topic of this thread? Diddly squat as far as I can tell.

My point is you cant take the Bible as literally fact. The closer you take things from the bible the further you go from Gods true message. Yes there was a guy called Jesus but other men have (eg David Koresh from Waco Texas) have taken a line here and there and made it say what they wanted. The further you go towards the Bible or any religion text the further you go towards extremism . Next thing you know you are stock piling guns and preparing for the Final Solution.

We had no hot Sunday dinners for 6 weeks cos my mother wanted to keep the Sabbath holy when we were kids. Father put up with it for a while then decided to put the foot down.

newmug

^^^^^ Its all about context. Keeping the Sabbath holy means going to Mass, nothing to do with dinner tempreature.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Every day people are leaving the Church and returning back to God.

Bit of a contradiction there, no?

skooterblue2

newmug wrote: »

^^^^^ Its all about context. Keeping the Sabbath holy means going to Mass, nothing to do with dinner tempreature.




Bit of a contradiction there, no?

actually there are certain ultra conservative Jews who wont do anything more than go to the Synagogue on the Sabbath. they will have precooked cold food. A bit too extreme for me.

If you can open your mind past the church you may see God in other places. RCC doesnt have a monopoly on the God product, its just got a franchise. Its all in the interpretation

philologos

skooterblue: why do you insist on claiming that the Bible has changed? What reason do you have for this?

antiskeptic

YoungTrouble wrote: »

I don't see how people can pick and choose what they believe in the Bible either.

I don't believe homosexuals are evil so therefore I don't believe the Bible to be true.

Define evil.

skooterblue2

antiskeptic wrote: »

Define evil.

Malicious, subverting the law of the state, interfeering with children, taking Costa Nostra money out of the Vatican bank and ending up under a bridge in London, The Money was only resting in my account. Expecting the state to bale out the church after they had their fun with children, Being on MI6 most wanted List (Father Pat Ryan), Not turning over Red files to the Department of Justice, standing in the way of the Mother and Child scheme, denoucing homosexuality while taking advantage of alterboys, Opening for the Pope in Dublin and talking about the wonders of celibacy before marriage while sleeping with an American divorcee/housekeeper, Turning children in care over to MNC for pharaceutical testing. Giving Refuge to Nazi and incorporating them into the Irish educational system (Folens).
..... the kind of stuff that makes the absurd stuff on Father Ted look tame.
.......the type of stuff that do be goin' on on the Death star.

I dont know what kind of evil are you talking about?

You do know the next kind of evil is Dr. Evil? but he had to go to evil medical school for 7 years

Fanny Cradock

At the risk of opening another can of worms, I think it is important to point out that the Bible does not say that homosexuals are evil. It says that homosexual acts are sinful. For more discussions on that see here.

tommy2bad

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I couldn't let this slip. Yes, people believe in things like God and the resurrection of Jesus. I'd be one of them. Saying that these beliefs - which I take to be grounded in evidence based faith - are "a bit much" is not offering an argument as to why we should take your opinion seriously. Rather you are just informing us your personal preference for naturalistic explanations over supernatural ones. Well, I prefer chocolate flavoured icecream to banana flavour.

As for Creationism and monkeys - what have they got to do with the topic of this thread? Diddly squat as far as I can tell.

Heresy! Raspberry ripple is the only true ice cream.:p

Lets not hate on the pagans here, I came back to Christianity from paganism and am grateful for what I learned their. Couldn't be doing with multiple gods though, seemed illogical and unfinished theologically.

The op says he/she is loosing faith and is wondering why they should believe any of it; because somethings are worth believing.
Religion isn't the purpose of religion, it's a set of habits, rituals and practices that guide you somewhere. Salvation. It also helps you live your life.
To the OP I would say maybe your not at the end of faith but at the start. Doubt isn't the opposite of faith, certainty is, as Newman said. It was Newman wasn't it?

philologos

skooterblue2: if you can it'd be good to discuss why you think the Bible was changed?

skooterblue2

I knew I was trying to find it:

Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence. (I wish to thank Brian Show for pointing out in his rebuttal to this article that the final version of the Christian Bible was not voted on at the Council of Nicaea, per se. The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."

http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm

Also when you translate you lose some of the meaning in the translation. So a summary is to unite the new church. I dont blame him. I am more talking about about extremists like take a bit here and there as it suits them to get their agenda done, copy and paste it , hey presto ... God Sanctions it, let it be done!!

I dont think either Ian Paisley or the KKK, Spanish Inquisition, Abu Qatada, Conquestidors, Al queda or good God fearin' Aryans and the Palmarians stood too far away from a religious text. You never heard on the news that "Agnostics have taken strongly fortified Atheist outpost after heavy shelling"? They use it to appeal to people who cant think for themselves.

People would want to be more careful where they get their religion from

tommy2bad

"Agnostics have taken strongly fortified Atheist outpost after heavy shelling"?

That would be worded as "Secularist rebels have taken strongly fortified outpost of the Communist regime" and yes you do hear that kind of thing.