Uncertain of gas smell - how to tell

CBYR1983

Moved into a place that has a vokera mynute 20e in the utility room. We were doing some renovations, nothing to do with boiler or gas, and so I was around the place for a month or so before we fully moved in - no issues. Now I'm starting to get a smell. Nobody else seems to get it.

Is there a way of identifying a gas leak other than smell? Surely....

anthonyos

ye light a match and if your house blows up

Mugser

Subscribing to this as I'd like to know the answer too as I have no sense of smell.. zero.. nada... nothing!! Always bothers me when it comes to things like this. You see these safety ads on the telly from BG telling you that they add a scent to their gas for safety reasons.. about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike to me!!

JohnnieK

You will need to get someone in to investigate if you are not sure. There is no domestic gas sensor available but I'm open to correction on that one, i've only seen Coster and the likes on industrial installations and they would cost too much for the domestic market.

Sometimes people mistake foul smells for gas leaks Is it possible it's the smell of a shore or gully coming back into the house from somewhere?

anuprising

anthonyos wrote: »

ye light a match and if your house blows up

not even remotely funny .

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

You will need to get someone in to investigate if you are not sure. There is no domestic gas sensor available but I'm open to correction on that one, i've only seen Coster and the likes on industrial installations and they would cost too much for the domestic market.

been looking at this but never used it

http://www.gasproducts.ie/acatalog/Amos_Natural_Gas_Alarm_240_V_DC.html

CBYR1983

CBYR1983 wrote: »

Moved into a place that has a vokera mynute 20e in the utility room. We were doing some renovations, nothing to do with boiler or gas, and so I was around the place for a month or so before we fully moved in - no issues. Now I'm starting to get a smell. Nobody else seems to get it.

Is there a way of identifying a gas leak other than smell? Surely....

Turn your gas off at the meter using tha main cock, report your smell of gas to BG, they will test your pipework, if nothing is found have your appliances serviced telling the engineer you have been smelling gas, after that you can be pretty sure your ok but you could fit a gas detector.

Mugser wrote: »

Subscribing to this as I'd like to know the answer too as I have no sense of smell.. zero.. nada... nothing!! Always bothers me when it comes to things like this. You see these safety ads on the telly from BG telling you that they add a scent to their gas for safety reasons.. about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike to me!!

There is a chemical added and it works very well, if you had a leak that you couldn't smell some visiting your house would let you know, of you are concerned then make sure your pipework is tested every year on the annual service.

anthonyos wrote: »

ye light a match and if your house blows up

:mad: and your a RGI

http://www.headingonline.com/p-1246-gas-detector-bg-2201-natural-gas-methane-1290470.aspx

Not as good as a proper service with the gas pipework and appliance checked for safety every year.

JohnnieK

To be honest it looks cheap. The best and safest way to use this alarm would be with the solenoid valve to isolate at the meter in the event of an escape, but who would go to that expense to get it installed in there home, most people are more concerned about a new sweet of furniture rather then there heating systems/gas installations.

Just sounding an alarm would be pointless as a lot of people would just take the battery out.

anthonyos

anthonyos wrote: »

ye must get on the manufactures courses ..i find the instructors on the gas courses full of themselves and they try to hard to highlight what they know and i dont..how often do vokera run them???il ring tomorrow

Couple of things you missed from your gas course: 1) Duty Of Care, 2) Safety, safety, safety, 3) Gasman's paranoia, 4) There's no humor in things that go bang;)

JohnnieK

JohnnieK wrote: »

To be honest it looks cheap. The best and safest way to use this alarm would be with the solenoid valve to isolate at the meter in the event of an escape, but who would go to that expense to get it installed in there home, most people are more concerned about a new sweet of furniture rather then there heating systems/gas installations.

Just sounding an alarm would be pointless as a lot of people would just take the battery out.

I don't like them, I have known people to ignore a gas leak because the alarm didn't go off, I don't think there's any need for a alarm if the gas is tested every year, also with the way NATGAS stinks, leaks are normally smelt very quickly and dealt with.

Mutha

Turn off the gas and get an RGI out.

anthonyos

anuprising wrote: »

not even remotely funny .

stupid answer for a stupid question diy gas detectives

Joey the lips

Is the smell inside or outside... Is the boiler on when you smell it. Sometimes people smell the gas from the flu but i am not doubting you smell it. Just investagating.

You know the rule... If you smell gas ring board gais....

cannonballer

Hi,

Call Bord Gais on 1850 20 50 50 it the safest option, there will be no cost in doing so.

The agent will have a very sensitive device called a gasco seeker that will sniff out any leak and give you a good idea of the location.

Never mess around with natural gas.

Joey the lips

anthonyos wrote: »

stupid answer for a stupid question diy gas detectives

Be careful of your next comment. It was a daft answer you gave and totally unhelpful.

anthonyos

anthonyos wrote: »

stupid answer for a stupid question diy gas detectives

No such thing as a stupid question.

SomeGuyCalledMi

Get BG out. It's a free service.

DGOBS

1. go to your gas meter box and turn off the gas
2. follow the procedure on the gas meter (i.e.. ring BG)
3. open doors and windows and keep the area ventilated
4. do not use electoral switches or door bells, no naked flames or smoking

Always err on the side of caution when you suspect a smell of gas, the emergency crew would rather be called out for nothing, that not be called out for something!

Yes, there is no charge directly to you, and they will be onsite within 60minutes of you making the call (regardless of what day or time you make it)

If there is a leak within the house, they will make safe for you, and advise you to get a RGI out for remedial action if required.

NOTE, the service is not free, it is paid for by the CER, so it's paid for by the tax payer, rather than the customer.

Anthonyos, when you make comments like that, be aware there is people who blindly follow suggestions, and being a 'competent' gas installer, you would have a duty of care to people in this regard.

CBYR1983

Ok, I had a family member go over to the house today and they also got a smell of gas. They got some lad out from BG. I wasn't there. He turned off the gas at the meter, and promptly left.

I'll be employing an RGI to see what he can do to get it back up and running. I've only just put the house back together though, so it's a real kick in the backside. There's no exposed external pipework and gas fires on opposite sides of the house. I can only see destruction in this equation.

Will the insurance pay out on costs associated with re-piping after a gas leak?

anuprising

dont jump the gun ,might be very simple to sort out . could just be one of the gas appliances leaking which could be an easy fix. get a good rgi to find fault .

DGOBS

+1. it maybe a very simple repair, loose fitting, gas valve, cooker tap passing etc....

CBYR1983

Initial analysis with sniffer suggests possible link between laying of wood floor and re-fixing of skirting board to location of leak. I'll be removing skirting later in hope that a nail has simply gone through a pipe. There is a joint behind a partition wall intersection that is also suspected.

I'll let you know how it goes.

DGOBS

Remember, locating it is fine, but the repair has to be done by an RGI, and they will restore your gas supply once sorted and tested.

CBYR1983

Took off the skirting last night to find the floor fitter had mistaken the gas pipe for a batton. Nailed straight through it. He's in trouble.

150 to an rgi to replace pipe and commission. A totally avoidable mess. Plasterwork had to be opened up for access and that needs re-doing as well.

DGOBS

A bill for him so!

CBYR1983

CBYR1983 wrote: »

Took off the skirting last night to find the floor fitter had mistaken the gas pipe for a batton. Nailed straight through it. He's in trouble.

150 to an rgi to replace pipe and commission. A totally avoidable mess. Plasterwork had to be opened up for access and that needs re-doing as well.

At least you got away with it without it going KABANG

anuprising

CBYR1983 wrote: »

Took off the skirting last night to find the floor fitter had mistaken the gas pipe for a batton. Nailed straight through it. He's in trouble.

150 to an rgi to replace pipe and commission. A totally avoidable mess. Plasterwork had to be opened up for access and that needs re-doing as well.

question i would ask is why gas pipe is behind skirting (or at that level ) unprotected (mechanically )

also did the rgi when he relaced the pipe use compression fittings to join new pipe behind the plasterboard ?

JohnnieK

anuprising wrote: »

question i would ask is why gas pipe is behind skirting (or at that level ) unprotected (mechanically )

also did the rgi when he relaced the pipe use compression fittings to join new pipe behind the plasterboard ?

It's probably coming out of the floor up to an appliance. Impossible to know with out being on site.

Re compression fittings, it's a stud wall not a cavity wall.

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

It's probably coming out of the floor up to an appliance. Impossible to know with out being on site.

Re compression fittings, it's a stud wall not a cavity wall.

even if it was running vertical ,it still needs to be mechanically protected to prevent nails penetrating

Compression joints should only be used where they are readily accessible allowing the joint to be easily tightened .These type of joints ARE NOT PERMITTED where the pipe is to be buried or concealed within the structure of the building .

JohnnieK

anuprising wrote: »

even if it was running vertical ,it still needs to be mechanically protected to prevent nails penetrating

Compression joints should only be used where they are readily accessible allowing the joint to be easily tightened .These type of joints ARE NOT PERMITTED where the pipe is to be buried or concealed within the structure of the building .

What would you protect it with? Marley? a nail would go through that, GB dissimilar metals (we all know what happens there). More than likely the chippy used a nail gun and they can penetrate nearly anything.

JohnnieK

jmoibnijhbkljnboijnkm

JohnnieK

JohnnieK wrote: »

jmoibnijhbkljnboijnkm

OK I dont know what happened there!!

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

What would you protect it with? Marley? a nail would go through that, GB dissimilar metals (we all know what happens there). More than likely the chippy used a nail gun and they can penetrate nearly anything.

regs state it has to be protected mechanically ,so thats up to you how you protect it .

a light gauge steel or alloy plate between the pipe and plaster board , doesnt have to even touch the copper pipe ,just has to impede or hamper a nail or screw . this satisfys the regs .

JohnnieK

anuprising wrote: »

JohnnieK wrote: »

What would you protect it with? Marley? a nail would go through that, GB dissimilar metals (we all know what happens there). More than likely the chippy used a nail gun and they can penetrate nearly anything.

regs state it has to be protected mechanically ,so thats up to you how you protect it .

a light gauge steel or alloy plate between the pipe and plaster board , doesnt have to even touch the copper pipe ,just has to impede or hamper a nail or screw . this satisfys the regs .

Thats for vertical runs that may not be apparent. If there is a boiler on the wall or a fire in or a hob then there is going to be a gas pipe in the facinity. If it's going up a wall in another room to aanother room above well then yes.

Every installation in Ireland will need to be shut down if your talking about the piece of pipe from the floor to a boiler.

We don't know the situation of the job except that it was behind a skirting, could have been at the fire place. If not then it could be running horizontally when it comes up which of course is not allowed.

DGOBS

Well, in the regs, it mentions protection of pipework behind 'dry lining where vertical runs are not apparent' (5.4.6.3)
But does not mention behind skirting, so technically I cannot see anything contravening IS813 regulations.

However, it would seem reasonable to me that where this risk is present (behind skirting etc) mechanical protection would be considered 'best working practice' and as the pipework may well be in contact with screeds and concrete it should be of the 'sheathed variety' so a short piece of GB or or maybe a piece of angle iron in front of the pipe would not pose any corrosion risk, yet provide mechanical protection.

I prefer the angle iron, as the 90 degree bend would tend to 'deflect' the nail, even from a nail gun, as JK said, they can pretty much penetrate most materials!

JK, I think the KB malfunction could be more, late Saturday night/early Sunday morning after a few scoops...lol...don't blame tools, usually the operator!!

In all fairness trying to work out good working practise using IS813 would be like me trying to work out using the Bible if Jesus would want Beef or Chicken for his tea after the second coming.

JohnnieK

DGOBS wrote: »

Well, in the regs, it mentions protection of pipework behind 'dry lining where vertical runs are not apparent' (5.4.6.3)
But does not mention behind skirting, so technically I cannot see anything contravening IS813 regulations.

However, it would seem reasonable to me that where this risk is present (behind skirting etc) mechanical protection would be considered 'best working practice' and as the pipework may well be in contact with screeds and concrete it should be of the 'sheathed variety' so a short piece of GB or or maybe a piece of angle iron in front of the pipe would not pose any corrosion risk, yet provide mechanical protection.

I prefer the angle iron, as the 90 degree bend would tend to 'deflect' the nail, even from a nail gun, as JK said, they can pretty much penetrate most materials!

JK, I think the KB malfunction could be more, late Saturday night/early Sunday morning after a few scoops...lol...don't blame tools, usually the operator!!

My point is if the pipe is coming up out of the blue then it most defo should be protected. If it s beside a fire or under a boiler then it would be apparent that there is a gas pipe there.

There is more holes in the is813 than a swiss cheese. The book should be scraped and rewritten to include all eventuallities and state you must do this if you come across this and so on.

DGOBS

Couldn't agree more, but at the minute it's all we got! (make your views known to the NSAI, as they are updating it at the minute AFAIK)
Wasn't taking good practice from 813, god forbid, just common sense.

Gary, for goodness sake, you know it would be chicken, did you not read it at all!?!

First mention of drugs in the bible was when Moses came down the mount with 2 tablets! (was it him who got stoned too?)

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

Gary, for goodness sake, you know it would be chicken, did you not read it at all!?!

Yea, I was going to go with the chicken, I wonder will he bring his own wine or will I have to supply the water:pac::pac: :pac:


I'll get my coat:o

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

There is more holes in the is813 than a swiss cheese. The book should be scraped and rewritten to include all eventuallities and state you must do this if you come across this and so on.

so you want a step by step kindergarden book ?

have you got a copy of this ? its a difinitive guide to domestic installations adherring to is813

check out page 19

http://www.bordgaisnetworks.ie/Global/Get%20Connected/BGN%20Get%20Connected%20Web%20Content/Get%20Connected%20Documents/Guidelines_for_desingers_builders_and_heatinstallers_Booklet_2.pdf

anuprising

anuprising wrote: »

so you want a step by step kindergarden book ?

In a country that has no gas training and no way of becoming a quilfied gas engineer a " kindergarden" book is what is required to stop this silliness.

I find it very frustrating that good working practise and interpretation of gas regs becomes a pissing competition, regs that mainly leave it up to the individual RGI to come to their own conclusion with very little clarification:mad:.

it's a absolute waste of time and pointless, I am used to working with a "kindergarden" book of regs and I miss being able to tell people to just shut up and do what the book says.

anuprising

i hold a city and guilds qualification ,obtained in ireland so at one point there was gas training here (1994/95)

i was classroom/workshop based for an initial 30 weeks with a futher 10 weeks after completing company based training . when rgi came into existance i was required to register so re sat the entire course that was on offer .gis gid giff (6days ,12 days ,6 days ) 24 day wonder .:D.

what bugs the **** out of me is people complaining about interpretations of gas regs when all the info is out there , they just dont want to look to hard and expect it to be in front of them in a book . if that was the case every joe soap could read the book and do it them selves .
is 813 is a statuatory instrument (legal) and as in all legal instruments it is open to interpretation .its up to the user to determine or define its use . as in a lawyer interpreting his view on a law . everything is open to interpretation . a good lawyer will view a law one way (the best way ) as in a good gas man will also.


most gas courses here teach you to read the books etc but no hands on training ,as opposed to a lot of plumbers who have endless amounts of hands on experience but dont know how to read /interpret the regs .

we are way behind the uk on everything ,but in ireland ,a land of former rougues ,inbuilt into those regs you will always find a loophole ,designed to let the writers and/or users off the hook .

for what its worth i believe we should be following the uk guide lines and regs as they are at least 10 years ahead of us , but thats never going to happen .

anuprising

anuprising wrote: »

i hold a city and guilds qualification ,obtained in ireland so at one point there was gas training here (1994/95)

Thats a beautiful thing;)

anuprising wrote: »

24 day wonder .:D.

We all have our crosses to bear

anuprising wrote: »

what bugs the **** out of me is people complaining about interpretations of gas regs when all the info is out there , they just dont want to look to hard and expect it to be in front of them in a book

I was spoon fed as a apprentice, if it weren't for some saint like gas fitters training me I could of ended up as a electrician:eek:
I like to pass my knowledge on and I'm responsible for turning some fruitloops in to decent gasmen:pac:

anuprising wrote: »

. if that was the case every joe soap could read the book and do it them selves .

natural selection, their going to do it anyway, might as well give there kids a chance;)

anuprising wrote: »

is 813 is a statuatory instrument (legal) and as in all legal instruments it is open to interpretation .its up to the user to determine or define its use . as in a lawyer interpreting his view on a law . everything is open to interpretation . a good lawyer will view a law one way (the best way ) as in a good gas man will also.

Nope, i'm not a lawyer but i once was a prison officer, gas should be like the "coffees hot" approach with no interpretation at all, have a look at a manufactures instructions manual to see how open information is in the UK.

While information is restricted there is the risk of death or destruction. There should be no fear of fruitloops using " secret" information for evil intentions as the gas industry should be regulated:D

anuprising wrote: »

most gas courses here teach you to read the books etc but no hands on training ,as opposed to a lot of plumbers who have endless amounts of hands on experience but dont know how to read /interpret the regs .

I have my GID and GIS, most on the course I was on we're more worried about passing rather than being in a relaxed position to learn the trade.

anuprising wrote: »

but thats never going to happen .

I hope it does or I'll have to pack my bags:(

I see it all the time, RGIs are more likly to argue about who knows more about the job than develop some kind of cameraderie that can be handy when the crap hits the fan

JohnnieK

anuprising wrote: »

so you want a step by step kindergarden book ?

have you got a copy of this ? its a difinitive guide to domestic installations adherring to is813

check out page 19

http://www.bordgaisnetworks.ie/Global/Get%20Connected/BGN%20Get%20Connected%20Web%20Content/Get%20Connected%20Documents/Guidelines_for_desingers_builders_and_heatinstallers_Booklet_2.pdf

That's a good book alright, printing it off now.

I want an is813 that does not alow it's self to be open to individual interpretation, I want something that's set in stone.

Re protection of pipe behind dry lined wall, I've yet to come across an installation that's done like that.

DoneDL

Without a doubt the gas regs in Ireland are in need of a rewrite. The whole point of regulations are that they give clear and concise instructions for all situations that an installer will encounter and give them them a legal platform to work from.