Priesr that will marry us without state involvement?

newmug

Hi folks. Does anyone know of a priest that will marry us without us having to do the civil registry first?

tatli_lokma

as far as I know a Catholic Marriage is a legally recognised (i.e also civil) marriage. If you just want a blessing then you need to just ask around - some priests will, some won't. I suppose the worry would be, if you are not prepared to commit fully to the legality of a wedding, then one could question your committment to each other. I mean if you want the 'wedding' why not the marriage?

newmug

Little Ted wrote: »

as far as I know a Catholic Marriage is a legally recognised (i.e also civil) marriage. If you just want a blessing then you need to just ask around - some priests will, some won't. I suppose the worry would be, if you are not prepared to commit fully to the legality of a wedding, then one could question your committment to each other. I mean if you want the 'wedding' why not the marriage?

We just want to be married properly in the eyes of God. In my parish, the priest insists that you do the civil bit first, I suppose its so people wont be trying to scam the state. I dont know if its the same anywhere else in the country, but thats the way it is around here. I just dont want anything to do with the government, its like you have to ask their permission to do everything.

Penny Dreadful

newmug wrote: »

We just want to be married properly in the eyes of God. In my parish, the priest insists that you do the civil bit first, I suppose its so people wont be trying to scam the state. I dont know if its the same anywhere else in the country, but thats the way it is around here. I just dont want anything to do with the government, its like you have to ask their permission to do everything.

I think it is a legal requirement now to get a license from the State othewise you're religious marriage is only that and has no legal standing.
I got married at the end of June and the priest had to have the license we got from the HSE and it was signed by us (bride and groom), best man, bridesmaid and priest at the end. This was then taken back to the HSE (and you have a short time frame in which to do this) and they issued us with the certificate of marriage.

Penny Dreadful

newmug wrote: »

We just want to be married properly in the eyes of God. In my parish, the priest insists that you do the civil bit first, I suppose its so people wont be trying to scam the state. I dont know if its the same anywhere else in the country, but thats the way it is around here. I just dont want anything to do with the government, its like you have to ask their permission to do everything.[/QUOTE]

In all fairness I don't think this is a bad thing for the government to be involved in. It stops (or at least limits) the amount of marriages for visas, keeps a record of the marriages (and type thereof) taking place in the state, etc. Also, given that you can improve you tax status after marriage and this information has to be given to the revenue commissioners, the State will be made aware of your marriage one way or another.

Its a simple and easy process. Go to the office of BD&M, answer a few easy questions, sign here and here and pay your €150 and license is procured. It takes 30 minutes.

28064212

You realise your refusal of a civil marriage means (among other things):

• your spouse won't have automatic inheritance rights
• your spouse doesn't have automatic visitation rights in hospital
• you can't avail of the numerous tax and health benefits for married couples
• you don't get automatic guardianship rights of any children

daingeanrob

totally agree with penny, it's a short, simple and in my eyes necessary process.

tatli_lokma

newmug wrote: »

We just want to be married properly in the eyes of God. In my parish, the priest insists that you do the civil bit first, I suppose its so people wont be trying to scam the state. I dont know if its the same anywhere else in the country, but thats the way it is around here. I just dont want anything to do with the government, its like you have to ask their permission to do everything.

The priest can do 'the civil' part as part of a catholic wedding ceremony. As for scamming the state, this would more apply to a blessing - as in you don't get married, you just get a 'union' blessed, legally you are not married. Again, I would say the priest is more likely questioning your committment - if you have such an issue with being legally married then he probably questions your comittment to the whole institution of marriage. AFAIK to be married 'properly in the eyes of god' (i.e receive the sacriment of marriage) the Cathlolic church also requires that you be legally married also.

As for permission of the government? sorry but that just sounds barmy! you don't need their permission to get married - you just have to satisfy the legal requirements and give the required notice.

Penny Dreadful

Little Ted wrote: »

The priest can do 'the civil' part as part of a catholic wedding ceremony. As for scamming the state, this would more apply to a blessing - as in you don't get married, you just get a 'union' blessed, legally you are not married. Again, I would say the priest is more likely questioning your committment - if you have such an issue with being legally married then he probably questions your comittment to the whole institution of marriage. AFAIK to be married 'properly in the eyes of god' (i.e receive the sacriment of marriage) the Cathlolic church also requires that you be legally married also.

As for permission of the government? sorry but that just sounds barmy! you don't need their permission to get married - you just have to satisfy the legal requirements and give the required notice.

The Church will also require a certificate to show that you have attended an approve pre marriage course whether it be from Accord or some other group.
Again, I don't think this is a bad thing. We both had a good experience on our course (despite being quite cynical before hand) and it was nice pre wedding thing to do for ourselves where you focused on the real reasons why you were getting married, your hopes for your life together,etc.

totallegend

newmug wrote: »

We just want to be married properly in the eyes of God. In my parish, the priest insists that you do the civil bit first, I suppose its so people wont be trying to scam the state. I dont know if its the same anywhere else in the country, but thats the way it is around here. I just dont want anything to do with the government, its like you have to ask their permission to do everything.

I think you're just a bit confused about what 'civil bit' you have to do before the church wedding; you have to attend the registrar (usually in your local HSE office) at least three months in advance of the wedding to notify them of your intention to get married. There is no way out of this.

This only involves showing ID to prove you are who you say you are, signing a document that says you're not already married and that you're getting married of your own free will, but it is not a marriage.

If you're having a church ceremony, you're not legally married until you sign the register after the mass. So there's nothing to worry about.

tatli_lokma

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

The Church will also require a certificate to show that you have attended an approve pre marriage course whether it be from Accord or some other group.

not every priest requires this - it is at their discretion, but the majority do ask you to attend a course.

aujopimur

The state does not recgnise a chuch marraige, the priest is a licenced solemizer, he just tags on the church bit.

BC

As others said, the bit that you have to do first is notify the state of your intention to get married. It's just administration, it's not a ceremony or anything, it's 10 mins in an office, there is no way out of this. The actual marriage (both the state and the church bits) are in the church on the day of the wedding.

tatli_lokma

BC wrote: »

As others said, the bit that you have to do first is notify the state of your intention to get married. It's just administration, it's not a ceremony or anything, it's 10 mins in an office, there is no way out of this. The actual marriage (both the state and the church bits) are in the church on the day of the wedding.

it seems to me that OP has an more of an issue with being 'legally' married and would rather be just married in the eyes of the church. But while I think in theory this is possible, and you just have the religious ceremony, I can't see a priest marrying someone religiously without ensuring that they are also legally married, as this would, as OP suggests, open the church to being part of scams (such as getting 'married' in a church but not registering the marriage and then continuing to claim social benefits as an unmarried parent for example).

newmug

Little Ted wrote: »

As for permission of the government? sorry but that just sounds barmy! you don't need their permission to get married - you just have to satisfy the legal requirements and give the required notice.

Maybe permission is not the right word, but the govt have way too much control over people's lives IMO. See the list another poster gave! None of that should be in the hands of the govt.

28064212 wrote: »

You realise your refusal of a civil marriage means (among other things):

• your spouse won't have automatic inheritance rights
• your spouse doesn't have automatic visitation rights in hospital
• you can't avail of the numerous tax and health benefits for married couples
• you don't get automatic guardianship rights of any children

Little Ted wrote: »

it seems to me that OP has an more of an issue with being 'legally' married and would rather be just married in the eyes of the church. But while I think in theory this is possible, and you just have the religious ceremony, I can't see a priest marrying someone religiously without ensuring that they are also legally married, as this would, as OP suggests, open the church to being part of scams (such as getting 'married' in a church but not registering the marriage and then continuing to claim social benefits as an unmarried parent for example).

Well thats the problem. A lot of people are not getting married exactly because they're better off staying as single parents. Hence the govt bring in legislation to steer people towards legal marriage to avoid scams etc., this turns into control, ie compulsion to be legally married or else suffer the consequences, and therefore it turns people like yours truly away from wanting to be "legally" married, yet still wanting to be married in the eyes of God. Its a viscious circle. The whole legal system needs an overhaul, but thats a story for another thread .

pwurple

You're not a single parent if you live together. If you claim you are, that's fraud.

Marriage is a legal mechanism to do accomplish what long term couples normally want to do. Be eachothers next of kin. Inherit from eachother. Be offical parents of the children.

The current sitting government makes new laws. These laws are pretty old, and have little or nothing to do with the current govt.

It sounds to me like your understanding of what a marriage is, ends at the wedding.

28064212

newmug wrote: »

Maybe permission is not the right word, but the govt have way too much control over people's lives IMO. See the list another poster gave! None of that should be in the hands of the govt.

What are you advocating? An anarchist system?

Say you die without any state recognition of your marriage. Who decides that your solely-religiously-recognised-wife gets your inheritance instead of your siblings or parents? How does a hospital decide who to let in to visit a sick person? Why on earth shouldn't the government provide tax and health benefits to married couples?

GeorgeBailey

newmug wrote: »

Maybe permission is not the right word, but the govt have way too much control over people's lives IMO. See the list another poster gave! None of that should be in the hands of the govt.

So who should take care of all that?

rainbowtrout

newmug wrote: »

Maybe permission is not the right word, but the govt have way too much control over people's lives IMO. See the list another poster gave! None of that should be in the hands of the govt.

This is just daft. If you have children with your partner and the relationship breaks up, and they up and leave with the children, either to another part of the country or abroad, how are you going to get access to your children?

In terms of the hospital visitation thing, it's not just going to be about visitation. If you end up on life support or some type of surgery has to be carried out and you are not capable of making the decision yourself who's going to do it? It's not practical to say 'I'll make a list of people, and my spouse who I am married to in the eyes of God but not the state will be on the list' Hospitals don't have time to check documents you may or may not have created for such purposes. They also can't have any randomer walking in to ICU saying they are related to a patient and demanding that they see them and make medical decisions on their behalf.

You know, most of these things have come about and been written into law because they protect people, it's not about control.

Senna

newmug wrote: »

Well thats the problem. A lot of people are not getting married exactly because they're better off staying as single parents. Hence the govt bring in legislation to steer people towards legal marriage to avoid scams etc., this turns into control, ie compulsion to be legally married or else suffer the consequences, and therefore it turns people like yours truly away from wanting to be "legally" married, yet still wanting to be married in the eyes of God. Its a viscious circle. The whole legal system needs an overhaul, but thats a story for another thread .

An overhaul so its easier for people to scam tax payers?

There are many ways that the government can control your life, but registering a marriage protects the couple and any family the results, there is no down side unless you do want to commit fraud.

John Mason

You want to get married and still claim your one parent family allowance- is that right ?

for a start, if you are living with with your partner and claiming this, you are robbing me and i dont take too kindly to that.

i work with a girl who got married abroad and didnt register her marriage in Ireland, so she could continue claim her OPFA. Is now getting divorced and is completed screwed, she completely deserves everything she gets in my opinion.

I am also assuming you are religious person, who lives by the doctrene of your religion, therefore you would be aware fraud and stealling are sins and the rammifications of this.

tatli_lokma

irishbird wrote: »

I am also assuming you are religious person, who lives by the doctrene of your religion, therefore you would be aware fraud and stealling are sins and the rammifications of this.

sounds more to me like they just want a day out, but none of the other obligations or responsibilities that goes with it. If one were particularly religious, then as you say, fraud and stealing would be incomprehensible, as would living together when not married, pre-marital sex etc etc.

As I say, sounds more like they want a 'wedding' but not a marriage.
People on here have been slated for wanting to get married to avail of tax credits - being told they were diminishing the importance of marriage. This is no different - this person doesn't 'really' want to be married so that they can retain state benefits but wants to have a day out, which to me makes a mockery of the whole idea of marriage.

Zaph

The OP has another thread on this subject here, so I'm closing this one. If you feel like posting on the other thread, please note that it is in the Christianity forum where the posting rules may be different to here, so I suggest you read the charter first.