Motor tax office - insolvable situation - my little today's story.

CiniO

My day started pretty good. I passed my driving test for C category (trucks).
Generally whole process (which I stared over half a year ago) was pretty straightforward and well organised (booking and attending theory test, booking and attending CPC theory tests, booking and attending lessons, and eventually booking and attending driving test as well as CPC practical test).. All good without any complitations

Until today.

After receiving my certificate of competency from driving tester, I went straight to motor tax office with all necessery documents to apply for new licence with extra category.
Unfortunately one of the requirements is that your current driving licence must be attached to the application for new licence. Process of obtaining new licence takes about 8 to 10 weeks. (that's what I was told by someone else and that was confirmed by motor tax office staff when I was there). Unfortunately, I can't surrender my licence for that long, as I need it. First of all it's a requirement for the driver to carry your driving licence when driving. I was told in motor tax office, that they will provide me with a receipt and that will be a proof in the mean time. Legally obviously it's not a proof, but I do believe, that Irish gards, would accept it, as part of their good will. Unfortunately, abroad that couldn't be a case. I'm going for short holidays soon, and I'll need my licence to rent a car. Then next month, I'll be driving to UK as part of my work, and will need my licence for that. I'll most likely have to do the same task in October and November, and then finally in December I'll be driving aborad again this time privately. Generally so, there is no chance I can surrender my licence for 10 weeks in any foreseeable future.
When I mentioned it to person who I was dealing with at motor tax office, she said there is absolutely nothing that can be done, and my licence must be surrendered now if I want to make an application for a licence with extra category. When I said that this can't be the case, she told me to move off as there was quite long queue and other people are waiting.
I asked could I not put application now, and after 10 weeks when my licence will be ready, I would come over, surrendered my current licence then and picked up new one. She said NO!. I asked could she not issue my licence now. She asked why should they skip a queue of licences issue proces for me, and that definitely can't be done. I asked eventually what am I supposed to do in such situation, and she said it was not her problem. When I asked does motortax office want me to quit my job, and go on the dole, as this is the only possible scenario if I tell to my employer that I won't be able to driver to UK as I have no licence, she said I'm ridiculous. I said that requirement to surrender licence for 10 weeks is ridiculous, so she told me to move off instantly and asked another person.

I thought that situation was really ridiculous. In addition to it, she was rude to me from the first moment I started talking to her.

After that I tried another trick to get my licence sorted ( I don't want to write here exactly what it was), but it didn't work either. I had a chat with manager of that particular motor tax office, which in the end finished up with both of us shouting in front of queue of 50 people waiting to pay their motortax (queue was especially big as it begining of the month). Eventually he refused to take my application, even though I had all necessery documents in the end. He refused also to gave me a written statement with reason of refusal, so I have absolutely no proof that I was even trying to apply for a licence.


I'm bit confused what to do now.
I'm in the position that nearly all staff from that particular motor tax office know me, and I'm pretty sure if I come back there in any future, they will do everything to make my life harder. Probably if I surrenderd my licence there tommorrow for exchange, it would take months or years, because AFAIK they have no legal time limits to process the application.

Looks like I was doing my truck test unnecesserily, as I just can't get my licence.
Any advice?

goz83

Make a formal complaint immediately. If the rudeness isn't enough, you can add racism in there for good measure. Cheeky feckers. The best you could have done in hindsight is make a photo copy of both sides of your license until you got the new one. The receipt while waiting for this should get you by (with exception of the holiday rental). Use a different motor tax office maybe

hi5

I'm suprised that happened today, especially in Co'Mayo:eek:.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/polish-society-accepts-judges-apology-for-comments-561512.html

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

I do feel sorry for you as you are in an awkward position. Sometimes a bit of lick arsing is the best way to go, as you seem to have dug a hole for yourself now.

What id do now is go back in tomorrow and apologise to the staff. Don't submit your application for the new licence just yet.

Wait until your back from the continent, and are able to do without your licence for a bit, then hand it in and chances are all will be forgotten about.

CiniO

goz83 wrote: »

Make a formal complaint immediately. If the rudeness isn't enough, you can add racism in there for good measure.

The whole situation got me really boiling, and I probably said few things I shouldn't have in the end.
Anyway I just looked up the appropriate legislation, and it looks like that law is nearly 100% with them, and nearly 100% against me.

Cheeky feckers. The best you could have done in hindsight is make a photo copy of both sides of your license until you got the new one. The receipt while waiting for this should get you by (with exception of the holiday rental). Use a different motor tax office maybe

That's probably what I'll try to do. After I'm back from holidays, I'll apply again, surrender my licence, and if I'm stopped in UK next month, I'll present a copy and receipt from Irish motor tax office, and I'll start praying this will be good enough for them.

Anyway - that's example of completely ridiculous law.

mik_da_man

You know you can apply for a duplicate licence?

Application Form D800

Sorted

goz83

When it comes to racist comments, I assure you, the law is against them! If he said "This country", that's fine. But if he said "My country", that's a racist comment, bringing your nationality, rather than your possible misunderstanding of irish law into play.

elaverty

Thats typical of the stupid red tape ****e in this country,,every department is completely incompetent in some shape or form..There must be something you can do surely,can anyone suggest what to do,,here is a person that is trying to make the job he is in as safe as possible for the future by upgradeing his qualifications,,so as he wont have to be a burden on the state as some judges thing all Poles are,and the bureaucracy wont allow him to,,By the way i dont think you being from Poland was a issue,,its the system and the way we do things thats the problem,,,

Markcheese

What do they actually do with your license application... Used to walk into office and they issued it there and then( filling in sections of the license in biro) if you had everything in order, alright it's printed now but it's the same paper license ....

CiniO

mik_da_man wrote: »

You know you can apply for a duplicate licence?

Application Form D800

Sorted

First of all I can apply for duplicate only if my licence is stolen or lost, and I have to declare it in front of the guard.

By now I know I should have done it straight away, and I wouldn't have any problems. But I naively believed, that my case can be sorted in some easier and more legal way. Unfortunately I was wrong.

At this stage, I can't do it anymore, as they know I have my licence and didn't loose it.

Syllabus

it sounds like you were extremely obnoxious imo

CiniO

Markcheese wrote: »

What do they actually do with your license application... Used to walk into office and they issued it there and then( filling in sections of the license in biro) if you had everything in order, alright it's printed now but it's the same paper license ....

They do the same now, but instead of doing it straight away, they put all applications in queue, and process them with 10 weeks delay.

CiniO

Syllabus wrote: »

it sounds like you were extremely obnoxious imo

I wasn't at the beginning for sure.
Later I probably was, and that grounded me for good now.

elaverty

Syllabus wrote: »

it sounds like you were extremely obnoxious imo

And had every right to be,,,as he says after he realized how that department do things,,

CiniO

goz83 wrote: »

When it comes to racist comments, I assure you, the law is against them! If he said "This country", that's fine. But if he said "My country", that's a racist comment, bringing your nationality, rather than your possible misunderstanding of irish law into play.

elaverty wrote: »

,By the way i dont think you being from Poland was a issue,,its the system and the way we do things thats the problem,,,

If that comment was racist, I didn't really thought that it was, and I think I unnecesserily mentioned it in my OP (edited now).
Over nearly 8 years which I spent in Ireland, I never felt I was treated in any way or any situation worse, just because I wasn't Irish, so some men saying something while arguing with me, is really irrelevant here I would think. Forget that.

mik_da_man

CiniO wrote: »

First of all I can apply for duplicate only if my licence is stolen or lost, and I have to declare it in front of the guard.

By now I know I should have done it straight away, and I wouldn't have any problems. But I naively believed, that my case can be sorted in some easier and more legal way. Unfortunately I was wrong.

At this stage, I can't do it anymore, as they know I have my licence and didn't loose it.

Fair point.

Is there no way of getting it quicker?
Maybe see if someone u know has a friend in the office?

I know a person who worked in the Meath office and she could get a licence for me in a day or two....

langdang

I can imagine telling German polizei "No, I've no licence, but the Irish civil service told me it would be grand"

Jimdagym

Cinio,

Do you "need" that license this side of christmas? Arent the new types of credit card style licenses being launched in January?
If so, consider waiting till January and then apply for your new driving licence including your newly acquired truck permit.


Congratulations on passing the test btw.

CiniO

mik_da_man wrote: »

Fair point.

Is there no way of getting it quicker?
Maybe see if someone u know has a friend in the office?

I know a person who worked in the Meath office and she could get a licence for me in a day or two....

Unfortunately I don't have any friends from motor tax office, and after today I surely won't have any

Indricotherium

CiniO wrote: »

Syllabus wrote: »

it sounds like you were extremely obnoxious imo

I wasn't at the beginning for sure.
Later I probably was, and that grounded me for good now.

I wouldn't say your card is marked. They probably deal with the likes of this day in day out, and won't remember any one particular person.

MuppetCheck

Wait a week, then loose your license. Attach the duplicate and carry the original with you. I doubt it will be recorded if you are stopped outside the estate.

I know this isn't legal but in reality this is probably your easiest route to getting this sorted.

Sometimes in this country even the simplest of things are made into a joke. I can't understand why a stamped copy would not be sufficient in this situation.

CiniO

Jimdagym wrote: »

Cinio,

Do you "need" that license this side of christmas? Arent the new types of credit card style licenses being launched in January?
If so, consider waiting till January and then apply for your new driving licence including your newly acquired truck permit.

It would be actually very handy to have it before christmas, but as you say I might wait in the worst case, until motor tax offices will be taken off the privilage of issuing driving licences

Congratulations on passing the test btw.

Thanks... It was my first driving test in Ireland (as I did other 2 categories in Poland), and I must say they differ a lot. Wasn't that easy as I thought at the begining it will be. But somehow I made it, even though I was all sweated when we arrived back at test centre
I might actually write another thread about Irish driving test, as I actually though it was a really well organised thing. But I'll do it some other day.

alias no.9

Its bolloxology of the highest order. Got my first provisional in person, over the counter, in cork. Was living in Galway when I did my test, got a cancellation slot at short notice, so short that the provisional expired a day before the test. No panic, straight into county hall in Galway, I was gobsmacked when I witnessed my paperwork being shuffled and stapled together and a handwritten piece of paper being handed to me. I asked what's this? Where's my licence? Only to be told that's your receipt, your licence will be sent out in a few weeks. Exasperated at this stage, I explained that my test was the following Friday. I was told they'd 'make a note of it'. Next day I got a call 'it says here you've got a test coming up but we've no evidence of that'. So back into county hall with the letter. As they were about to staple that to the other docs, I still don't know how I restrained myself, I'm a very non violent person but I wanted to smash that glass, jump the counter and grab them by the neck. I managed a diplomatic 'could you please just copy that and give it back to me'. Two more days of phone calls to try and even get an indication that it may be ready in time with no clear answer until it came in the post on the morning of the test.
Shower of c*nts. As if there wasn't enough stress preparing for the test.
Passed the test anyway but waited until I was back in Cork to get the full license which once again was issued over the counter. Spent another 2.5 years living in Galway but made a point of paying my motor tax to Cork Co Co.
Have since had a replacement licence issued for change of address and a renewal of the licence issued by the Clondalkin motor tax office. They do the whole shuffle and staple routine but have the transaction complete in a couple of days.
If one Co Co can issue them on the spot, then they all could. Timewise, it didn't seem to take any longer to issue it on the spot. My only conclusion is that it's a restrictive work practice to rack up overtime. Low hanging fruit for the Croke Park Agreement perhaps?

djimi

Just out of curiosity where on earth did they get 8-10 weeks from? Takes about 7-10 days to get a new licence in Naas; 2 weeks tops.

Jesus Shaves

Duplicate license is the only way to go, fill out the form and post in your application, no one will be any the wiser

Jimbob 83

Send in a formal complaint on the grounds of racism

This is unacceptable and should not be tolerated

Swampy

djimi wrote: »

Just out of curiosity where on earth did they get 8-10 weeks from? Takes about 7-10 days to get a new licence in Naas; 2 weeks tops.

This^^^. I've gotten licenses in a week in the past.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Just out of curiosity where on earth did they get 8-10 weeks from? Takes about 7-10 days to get a new licence in Naas; 2 weeks tops.

Swampy wrote: »

This^^^. I've gotten licenses in a week in the past.

You are all invited to Mayo

Mikros

Some "public service"...

You could write a letter of complaint to the local authority in question to get it in formally noted and if that got you nowhere you have the option of making a complaint here... http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/

Of course none of that will get your licence sorted anytime soon i'm afraid

Stoolbend

I've a theory test cert for EB licence. I'll send in the application to Mayo Co Co tomorrow and let you know how long the licence takes to come.

The 8 to 10 weeks is probably just worst case scenario.

dearg lady

CiniO wrote: »

They do the same now, but instead of doing it straight away, they put all applications in queue, and process them with 10 weeks delay.

I used work in the Motor tax office (for my sins!) and I can tell you it's a good thing not to have them issued immediately for quality control purposes, there used to be a lot of mistakes, and it's better to have someone check over the application before issuing the licence. That said, there's no reason why it should take 10 weeks, that's ludicrous! A couple of days seems fair, maybe even up to a few weeks if there's a backlog, but anything more than that is madness.

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Wait a week, then loose your license. Attach the duplicate and carry the original with you. I doubt it will be recorded if you are stopped outside the estate.

I know this isn't legal but in reality this is probably your easiest route to getting this sorted.

Sometimes in this country even the simplest of things are made into a joke. I can't understand why a stamped copy would not be sufficient in this situation.

It;s not ideal, but yes, you could declare your licence lost at a garda station, get your form stamped there, and include that with your licence application to get category C added. I don't blame people for doing this sometimes.

YouTookMyName

CiniO wrote: »

You are all invited to Mayo

No they're not, Stay away.

CiniO

Mikros wrote: »

Some "public service"...

You could write a letter of complaint to the local authority in question to get it in formally noted and if that got you nowhere you have the option of making a complaint here... http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/

Of course none of that will get your licence sorted anytime soon i'm afraid

The problem is that all they did was within the law.

(4) An application for a driving licence shall be accompanied by -


(a) where the applicant -


(i) is the holder of a driving licence or a recognised driving licence, such licence,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0537.html#article12


There isn't any time limits for how long they can process application, so in theory they can keep my licence for as long as they wish.

ardmacha

This is typical of many failings in Ireland. There is a system in place that is not fit for purpose. There is no point in arguing with the people in these offices who did not design this system and whose job it is to implement it. Call your TD and ask why the system isn't changed.

MAYOMICK

i dont think duplicate is the answer.Youll be waiting ten weeks for that as well

dearg lady

MAYOMICK wrote: »

i dont think duplicate is the answer.Youll be waiting ten weeks for that as well

But he'll still have his licence with his current entitlements

galwaytt

First, congrats on your C test - I passed mine a while ago too.

I got my new licence from Galway Co Co in 4 days. I don't know where that weeks is coming from - they're only typing in a box, on a pink piece of paper.

Are you sure you're not mixing up your Tacho card, which comes from RSA, and does take longer ...?

If it's a big problem, I think you lost your licence this morning.

I also predict you might find it down the back of the couch, next week. Which is most unfortunate, then having two.........

mickdw

These kind of systems really need to be looked at. Too much 'ah sure you will be ok for a few weeks' involved in these systems. Why can they not simply inspect and copy you licence and send that with application. Then when new licence is ready, inform you to come pick it up at council office, at which time you hand back the old licence for destruction.

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

These kind of systems really need to be looked at. Too much 'ah sure you will be ok for a few weeks' involved in these systems. Why can they not simply inspect and copy you licence and send that with application. Then when new licence is ready, inform you to come pick it up at council office, at which time you hand back the old licence for destruction.

That's exactly what I was thinking about while going there, and that's exactly what I asked for.
Unfortunatley it was a big NO, NO !!!

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking about while going there, and that's exactly what I asked for.
Unfortunatley it was a big NO, NO !!!

I can tell you for a fact that you can get a 'fast track' licence in Galway, at the counter, inside a few hours, if it's urgent. Just like you can a Passport. There is ALWAYS a way.

Btw, when I say I got my new licence, I didn't even go into the CoCo - I did it by post.

mickdw

It used to be the way that if you hand delivered the application to the main office at castlebar that you would pretty much get the licence in 3 days. I dont know if that is still the case though.

Stoolbend

mickdw wrote: »

These kind of systems really need to be looked at. Too much 'ah sure you will be ok for a few weeks' involved in these systems. Why can they not simply inspect and copy you licence and send that with application. Then when new licence is ready, inform you to come pick it up at council office, at which time you hand back the old licence for destruction.

That would involve 2 trips to the tax office in Castlebar though.

The biggest problem here is that it probably would have been done in a week or two.
They say 8 to 10 to cover their asses and once questioned they couldn't back down.

The best thing to do is send in the application. If the licence hasn't arrived by the time its needed for holidays just go in with evidence its needed like the car hire booking and there shouldn't be a problem.

unkel

Almost a Kafkaesque situation - I can imagine that you'd lose the plot out of frustration

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Wait a week, then loose your license. Attach the duplicate and carry the original with you. I doubt it will be recorded if you are stopped outside the estate.

I know this isn't legal but in reality this is probably your easiest route to getting this sorted.

Sometimes in this country even the simplest of things are made into a joke. I can't understand why a stamped copy would not be sufficient in this situation.

Irish solution to an Irish problem?

I would not want any part in that tbh. Last resort maybe, but it would not make my very happy at all...

I'd post it out by registered post as per GalwayTT suggestion and hope for the best...

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

Almost a Kafkaesque situation - I can imagine that you'd lose the plot out of frustration



Irish solution to an Irish problem?

I would not want any part in that tbh. Last resort maybe, but it would not make my very happy at all...

I'd post it out by registered post as per GalwayTT suggestion and hope for the best...

I didn't use registered, just 'ornery'

unkel

I know you didn't suggest registered. But I would not trust my driving license not to be "lost in the post" myself

BostonB

Rather than all the drama why not wait till you stop travelling.

Probably every other person to the desk has some queue skipping story.

unkel

BostonB wrote: »

Rather than all the drama why not wait till you stop travelling.

OP never really stops traveling for long periods. I know what he means, there were years that I was rarely in the country for more than 2 or 3 weeks at a time. Mostly away for work, sometimes away privately

BostonB

In that case I would want to know why the OP local office takes 10 weeks when other offices are only taking a few days. I would being this issue to the attention of the local elected official.

In Dublin they say 5 working days.
http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/DrivingLicences/Pages/FullDrivingLicence.aspx

Prehaps he could apply using a different address in a different office?

wonski

I don't really understand why they can't offer two options for applicants:

1. By post - you send application with your old license, and receive new one in number of days/weeks(more likely)

2. Go in person, let them copy your license (your driver number is already there for ever, so they can check if it is real), and go back in person to collect it, in exchange for the old one.

If you don't need one quickly - you send it, if you do - you spend some time in the queue. Simple, too simple i believe.

I remember i had my provisional sent to me in few days, but had to wait for full licence for 2 weeks iirc. They told me there was a backlog, and said up to 4 weeks. This was in Naas.

To highlight a difference between Government Offices, and private companies - two things:

1. Aviva reduced my monthly payments as soon as i sent them a message (online), saying that i passed my test and applied for full license. They didn't care if i received it by now, or in 8 weeks?
2. When you open bank account they don't ask you to leave your ID with them, they just copy it - if it is enough for them, it should be more than enough for the MTO who issued said ID's .

The rules they have now need to be changed, they don't fit some groups - professional drivers in particular.

unkel

BostonB wrote: »

In that case I would want to know why the OP local office takes 10 weeks when other offices are only taking a few days.

This is it. Sending off the application by post is the way forward. We really do not need obnoxious public service staff in local offices around the country who are not contributing anything more than an online service could do.

BostonB

I'm not sure the OP has time to reform the Public sector.