2012: Why is Cork city still so anglicised?

Rebelheart

So this latest act of self-delusion about Cork identity and culture, namely "Cork day", got me going about what I see as the true identity and culture of Cork city and its people in 2012.

"Rebels", they certainly aren't.

As a kid I was always brought up to view Cork as a bastion of Irish resistance and culture. Most Irish people, I'd say, would have that impression. Then I visited it this year, 2012.

In reality, however, Cork city is a horribly anglicised city with a massive British royalist cult of streetnames after Victoria, Lancaster, Hanover, William, Lansdowne and no fewer than eight streets named after that British royalist hero, Arthur Wellesley. In short, it aspires to be as culturally English as Dublin. With token exceptions such as MacCurtain Street, can it not find Irish heroes to replace these street names? Can it not find values to honour in its streetnames? Can it not find victims of British imperialism to honour in its street names? Why is the place still obsessed with having a streetscape which honours the heroes of the colonial power?

It's the delusions of being the "rebel county" while this love affair with British royalist names on the streets of Cork and in Cork City Council which really sticks in my gut.

For instance, from 1273 until 1900 Cork had a "mayor". In 1900 it received the prefix "Lord" from the British monarch. This royalist title, apparently, is a badge of honour to Cork people. What sort of inferiority complex to the British royalist cult do Cork people have that they didn't revert back to the ancient title in 1921? Similarly, from listening to Cork people and their media you'd swear the proudest thing in their history was the way they all but got down on their knees to welcome the British monarch last year. Not for Cork people a simple, civil "Welcome" to a foreign head of state. No, they had to engage in a frenzied near communal bending of the knee à la the people in Kingstown/Dún Laoghaire during the British royal visit there in 1900. Cork city, it appears, wants to be culturally at the level of Kingstown, Dublin in 1900.

As an outsider, I'd like to know what makes your city culturally Irish? Why does it ape Dublin, c. 1900? Why can't you create a streetscape with more worthy people, even ideas, to remember and commemorate than your British colonial rulers?
Before anybody starts, spare us the specious balderdash about "inclusivity", or "not ignoring history", when British royalist heroes have an enormously disproportionate position in your city in 2012 and, if one were to look at the street names, the British don't seem to have been too keen on recognising any Irish history that didn't laud their victories or heroes in this country and in other parts of their Empire. It's the history of the native Irish and their heroes which are excluded and ignored in Cork city's current understanding of "inclusiveness" and "not ignoring the past".

evilivor

Rebelheart wrote: »

It's the delusions of being the "rebel county" while this love affair with British royalist names on the streets of Cork and in Cork City Council which really sticks in my gut.

You do do realise that the "rebel county" monicker has nothing to with anti-British rebellion?

Apart from that, nice trolling.

mikemac1

FAIL

Rebel has nothing to do with Irish War of Independence

Have you never heard of Perkin Warbeck?

Have a read OP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin_Warbeck

Herb Powell

You don't live here....................k

As mentioned, good to see some proper trolling, this one ALMOST got a rise out of me

Chris.Buckley

Rebelheart wrote: »

Why can't you create a streetscape with more worthy people, even ideas, to remember and commemorate than your British colonial rulers?

Oh I apologize overly opinionated person who has been to cork ONCE. I'll bring it up at the next meeting where all of cork city congregates to decide street names, as we so often do.
And why have you formulated all of your opinions about Cork based on the street names? Surely the people come into the matter to some degree? go back to whatever nationalistic town you came from and Ogle at your patriotic street names..

jamesbere

Well that was a waste of a few mins.

You must have a fairly stress free life if this is all that is bothering you.

First world problem

Madam_X

Those street names date from a very long time ago - why should the people who live here today be blamed for them?

Otherwise, what else is anglicised and self deluded? Because it sure ain't the people. I know this because I'm actually from Cork and have lived here most of my life. A handful of anglicised people (which I assume is protestant, having a bit of a "British" way about them - and you'd find a few of them anywhere in Ireland) does not an entire small city anglicised make. Plenty of people in Cork give out about "the Brits" too. Plenty.

Rebelheart

Rebelheart wrote: »

.............

As an outsider...............

Nice one

blindsider

OP.......rancid bait!!!!

KCAccidental

in Cork City I can think of the following streets named after Irish heroes...

Connolly Road
Pearse Road
Kent Road
McDonagh Road
Joe Murphy Road
Clarkes Road
Charles Daly Road
Plunkett Road
Oliver Plunkett St
Wolfe Tone St
William O'Brien St
Parnell Place
Emmett Place
Michael Collins Bridge
Eamonn DeValera Bridge (yes, we even honoured him!)
Brian Boru Street
Griffith Bridge
Thomas Davis Bridge

and there are plenty more around, those were just the one's I know

Just because you visited Cork once and saw a few dead noblemen's names on street signs doesn't mean that we haven't honoured those who fought for freedom from British rule.

Also one of our main streets, Washington Street, was changed from Great George's street (after the King) to Washington Street after the Man who led the fight to free another country from British Colonialism (you may have heard of him). They did this in 1918... before independence to mainly annoy the British

So perhaps you should do some research before mouthing off about things. you may actually learn something

What I will say though, is that it is weird to see a 10ft photo of the Queen hanging in the English Market... shows how times have changed and that we are able to move on.

Gary The Gamer

The county of Cork certainly has a very English feel in my opinion which is no bad thing.

ABajaninCork

Blimey! The trolls are certainly out in force. Have they nothing better to do??

Ronan cork

Never noticed a picture of the queen in the market...where abouts is it?

KCAccidental

Ronan cork wrote: »

Never noticed a picture of the queen in the market...where abouts is it?

they have big banners hanging from the ceiling with pictures of her visit to Ireland.

Bannasidhe

KCAccidental wrote: »

they have big banners hanging from the ceiling with pictures of her visit to Ireland.

And if Obama had visited there would be pictures of him.

Foreign Head of State visits market, seen to really enjoy themselves. Images of visit broadcast in Head of State's home country which happens to be our nearest neighbour and close trading partner = Great publicity.

Seems like a no-brainer to me but then I am most likely one of those Anglicised Cork people the OP is whittering on about with my excellent diction, erudite command of the English language and wide knowledge of life beyond the confines of this island. Plus I have been on the BBC.


:rolleyes:

KCAccidental

lets be honest here, Obama isn't the same as the Queen for obvious reasons. there's no point denying history, it's better to have moved on being mindful of what happened in the past. Another reason why I think having streets named after former nobility is a good thing. Much worse to have a 'year zero' mentality.

I wasn't complaining about the pictures by the way, quite the opposite in fact. Couldn't have seen it happening 10 years ago though!

Ronan cork

Will have to remember to look up next time I'm in there! A true rebel doesn't care what the street is called, he just needs to know which way the traffic goes!

Bannasidhe

KCAccidental wrote: »

lets be honest here, Obama isn't the same as the Queen for obvious reasons. there's no point denying history, it's better to have moved on being mindful of what happened in the past. Another reason why I think having streets named after former nobility is a good thing. Much worse to have a 'year zero' mentality.

I wasn't complaining about the pictures by the way, quite the opposite in fact. Couldn't have seen it happening 10 years ago though!

Sorry if it seemed I was having a go at you - I wasn't.

I agree Obama is not the same as the Queen. Having the Queen here was symbolically far more important. But she is just the head of a foreign state at the end of the day and the sooner we treat her as that the better we will all be.

I would never deny history - I'm a historian - but I do realise it is the past. We have had self-determination since before my mother was born and she is nearly 80 so I do think banging the ol' anti-Anglo drum has become increasingly meaningless - yet some will persist in doing so.

murphym7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Rebelheart

evilivor wrote: »

You do do realise that the "rebel county" monicker has nothing to with anti-British rebellion?

mikemac1 wrote: »

FAIL

Rebel has nothing to do with Irish War of Independence

Have you never heard of Perkin Warbeck?

You both really shouldn't make assumptions about somebody's knowledge that is based on your own evidently inferior understanding of history. Nevertheless, I see you've both been listening to John A. Murphy, the Cork "historian" who hasn't even a PhD in history. You should now work to enlighten your fellow Corkonians about this because the vast majority of them are under the impression that Cork is so-called for its resistance to the English crown.

Oh, wait, resistance to the English crown - that's the claim isn't it? Perhaps that's where the moniker "rebel" county came from in the middle ages? You two didn't really think that one through, not unlike John A. Murphy actually. You'll also find that there were "rebels" in, well, most areas that the English were in before the 17th century. But Cork people uniquely claimed this tradition of resistance to the English crown as their own in the 20th century, when most places had an equal claim on it.


So, by your own admissions Cork people claim a tradition of resistance to the English crown which goes back centuries, yet in 2012 you maintain streets and the like which laud the same English crown. And nobody on the thread so far can face the hypocrisy of your anti-royalist claims of resistance and the reality of your city's streetscape today which still honours that crown and its servants.

At least Jackeens don't make claims of resistance to that crown. They're a bit more honest about their British royalist streetnames.

Rebelheart

Chris.Buckley wrote: »

go back to whatever nationalistic town you came from and Ogle at your patriotic street names..

I know of no other place in Ireland which puts so much emphasis on its role opposing the English/British crown. Ergo, it's the hypocrisy of Cork people today, as seen by their maintenance of these names across their city, that I'm pointing out.

Rebelheart

Onixx wrote: »

Those street names date from a very long time ago - why should the people who live here today be blamed for them?

I'm not for a minute suggesting they should be blamed for putting them there - clearly, there would be chronological problems with that - but they and in particular their elected representatives since 21 January 1919 certainly are to blame for maintaining them. That Cork people see no contradiction between the abundance of street names glorifying a foreign royalist tradition and the common claims of Cork people to have played a pivotal, indeed a unique, role in resisting the British crown is the delusion and dishonesty.

Rebelheart

Onixx wrote: »

Plenty of people in Cork give out about "the Brits" too. Plenty.

Judging by the street names, the pride Cork people take in the British "Lord" title being given to their mayor (how centuries of history is ignored there) and the communal pride at welcoming a British monarch last year (no such obsequious "pride" when other foreign heads of state have visited Cork), these Cork people are evidently a small minority in 2012, or just verbal republicans.

There's a difference between a community welcoming a foreign head of state, and being obsequious in their welcoming of same. Collectively, the strong impression is that the Cork people in question feel they have something to prove to certain nationalistically-minded British in 2012. They don't: Cork's street names are testimony to your favourable disposition towards the British crown. Cork people have much more to prove about their Irish-Ireland and Irish republican credentials.

Rebelheart

KCAccidental wrote: »

there's no point denying history, it's better to have moved on being mindful of what happened in the past. Another reason why I think having streets named after former nobility is a good thing. Much worse to have a 'year zero' mentality.

With all due respect, this is the sort of delusional, right-on, fashionable, predictable, specious claptrap which I addressed in the op and is trotted out ad nauseam by people who are decidedly lacking in historical perspective. Nothing if not predictable. And most annoying. Their understanding of history is generally shaped by those mediocre pseudo-intellectuals in Independent Newspapers: Harris, Murphy, Dudley Edwards and the like. I dealt with it over here a couple of years ago.

Here's a little test of your "right-on" sounding statement: perhaps you can show us all the streetnames which the British erected that were named after Irish heroes who resisted British rule? There are none. Not for them an acceptance of the Irish past before they took over. Yet you seem quite happy to bestow upon their tradition a respect which they never, ever had for the Irish tradition. This is the sort of shamelessness and dishonesty about the past which marks so many people who would like to see themselves as historically aware and enlightened. It's also an indication of the faoi chois mindset of these cap-tipping Irish, always keen to be accepted by their more powerful coloniser, which ensured the English won, and the Irish lost.

Sarky

This is boring. You're boring. Stop being boring.

mikemac1

Rebelheart wrote: »

Oh, wait, resistance to the English crown - that's the claim isn't it?
So, by your own admissions Cork people claim a tradition of resistance to the English crown which goes back centuries, yet in 2012 you maintain streets and the like which laud the same English crown.

No, all I did was add Perkin Warbeck to the thread

That is not anti-roylist as if he became king, well as you are doing is replacing one elite with another

I reference something over 500 years ago and Rebelheart is here calling me a hypocrite

Aiming to become king was a game for lords and dukes, the common man or women on the street saw no difference

Hypocrite for adding Perkin Warbeck here?

I'm not a Corkonian, I'm outta here

Mr Benevolent

Rebelheart wrote: »

There's a difference between a community welcoming a foreign head of state, and being obsequious in their welcoming of same. Collectively, the strong impression is that the Cork people in question feel they have something to prove to certain nationalistically-minded British in 2012. They don't: Cork's street names are testimony to your favourable disposition towards the British crown. Cork people have much more to prove about their Irish-Ireland and Irish republican credentials.

Christ. Talk about paramilitary indoctrination. All that stuff is toss. People with a life don't give a crap about it. Keep banging your tambourine while real life moves on without you. Nobody cares about republican or orange values anymore.

Rebelheart

Sarky wrote: »

This is boring. You're boring. Stop being boring.

With 16,539 posts on an online forum, it would appear that you're not exactly the life and soul of the party yourself.

Always nice to see a Boards.ie moderator breaching Boards.ie rules and engaging in an ad hominem, though.

Rebelheart

Confab wrote: »

Christ. Talk about paramilitary indoctrination. All that stuff is toss. People with a life don't give a crap about it. Keep banging your tambourine while real life moves on without you.

Confab
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,089

Although as arrant balderdash goes, accusing somebody who doesn't share your evident sympathies of "paramilitary indoctrination" is a tad, well, silly given that people made, and make, a particular point of emphasising their delight at the visit of a British monarch in particular to Cork. Clearly, people do care about proving something with their attitude to that particular monarch's visit. It's disingenuous of you to give the impression that they would be so keen to make the same point about, say, the Queen of the Netherlands visiting Cork.

Cú Giobach

Let's seen now, here in Cork our grand and great-grandparents actually picked up weapons, fought, died and gave great sacrifices to help give us the right to govern ourselves, sacrifices that many around the country were not willing to make, yet getting out a pot of paint and changing a few street names is considered more important to this so called Rebelheart.
Ha Ha ha!!!! :D ROFL Oh.... my sides are aching, please stop.

I hope all the people around the world fighting for freedom have their paint ready, lest they be tarred as traitors.
Broken Chains and Dulux, are the new symbols for freedom so it seems.

starch4ser

Rebelheart wrote: »

Judging by the street names, the pride Cork people take in the British "Lord" title being given to their mayor (how centuries of history is ignored there) and the communal pride at welcoming a British monarch last year (no such obsequious "pride" when other foreign heads of state have visited Cork), these Cork people are evidently a small minority in 2012, or just verbal republicans.

What have Ghey people got to do with this argument? :pac:

jaykay74

Rebelheart wrote: »

Cork people have much more to prove about their Irish-Ireland and Irish republican credentials.

much to prove to who

NuMarvel

St Patrick's Street.



/thread closed.

who the fug

As we don't have an inferiority complex like the rest of the country we could nae give a ****e about what a street is called or any other symbols.

smcgiff

To be fair, i've never seen a troll with so many posts before. Troll they be though. Now stop feeding.

murphym7

I usually don't quote Monty Python this much but this came to mind, about as sensible too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

Bannasidhe

My PhD in History and I are far to busy drinking Pimm's, playing cricket, and shouting huzzah! huzzah! every time Her majesty appears on TV to respond just now to the fountain of tosh which as spewed forth in this thread.

Obviously this person as issues about Cork. That is understandable. Many people have issues about not being from Cork. Scorn not their simplicity.




:pac:

Mr Benevolent

smcgiff wrote: »

To be fair, i've never seen a troll with so many posts before. Troll they be though. Now stop feeding.

Fair point.

HoggyRS

Ah yes the Queens visit, how we've "moved on". Moved on to what though? As a republican I never experienced such harassment in the lead up to that visit. Usually we peacefully go about our business, have our protests etc, the guards give us some dirty looks and we all go home. This was different though, I had my details taken under the prevention of terrorism act 3 times in the week leading up to the visit. One of these times the details were taken by a foreign police officer working with the gardaí. Several people were told that they would be arrested if they set foot in the city centre that day, others had anti-visit material confiscated in the lead up to the march. One lad had a garda car parked outside his gaff for the whole day of the visit so he could not leave.

Queen visits, everyone who disagrees is deemed a dangerous terrorist. How progressive. We've really "moved on".

Nonoperational

Threads like this remind us how some people certainly have not moved on. Those streets were named years upon years ago, do you really think it's practical or worthwhile renaiming them all now?

Thankfully as the generations progress this backward nonsense becomes less and less relevent and happily the majority of Cork people don't lie awake at night cursing the names of the streets. It obviously troubles you greatly which is frankly odd.

Ludo

We got rid of the queens old castle. What more do you want?

who the fug

Ludo wrote: »

We got rid of the queens old castle. What more do you want?

Where was that?

jaykay74

who the fug wrote: »

Where was that?

down by Gerry Adams Steet

Chuck Stone

The type of people who turn up to visits by foreign celebs dignitaries wouldn't really be indicative of the general populace* of Cork in my estimation. I'd imagine many of the same people would have turned up if Beyoncé was visiting the English market.

I personally find the idea of people being born into privilege repugnant and would have absolutely no interest wasting my time going to watch Mrs Windsor or anyone like her.


*Apart from some archaic royalists and quasi-Unionists.

Cú Giobach

who the fug wrote: »

Where was that?

Look at the Cork crest.



On the left is The King's Castle but the site was re-named The Queen's old Castle, which was where the music shop and Argos was/is and on the right is The Queen's Castle, the ship is on what is now Castle street.
A main entrance to the old city, now North and South Main streets (hence the names).

The Queens Old Castle shopping centre was around till fairly recently, then it became The Virgin Mega store/Argos/Zimbo.

who the fug

Thanks, never ever took any notice of that before.

By the way, went past the The Archway on Saturday , this a sorry sight

Cú Giobach

who the fug wrote: »

By the way, went past the The Archway on Saturday , this a sorry sight

Hic.....drool

Bannasidhe

Since Cork City was founded by Vikings I demand we rename all our streets after Norse gods and famous Vikings immediately.

We should have Thor Street, Odin Parade and Olaf Bloodaxe Mall.

Sarky

Anyone for tea on Bronn-atop-the-piled-dead Lane?

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Anyone for tea on Bronn-atop-the-piled-dead Lane?

I would but I'm meeting Betty for tiffin in Egill Skallagrímsson Plaza .

jamesbere

Wow this thread is still going.

Look Rebelheart if you want a street named after you just ask, I think thats what you really want