Aer Lingus Pensions (?) strike

looksee

I was just about to book a flight to the US on Aer Lingus in September when my son phoned to say that he had heard on the news that there was a chance of strike action.

I don't care (sorry!) about why they are striking, I just put that in the title to differentiate it from the other Dublin Airport/Aer Lingus strike threats.

I cannot find any real information about when this is likely to happen or what the state of play is. Has anyone managed to figure out when this is likely to happen? My inclination is to just book anyway but I'd be interested in any info that anyone might have gleaned.

Thanks!

Shamrock231

looksee wrote: »

I was just about to book a flight to the US on Aer Lingus in September when my son phoned to say that he had heard on the news that there was a chance of strike action.

I don't care (sorry!) about why they are striking, I just put that in the title to differentiate it from the other Dublin Airport/Aer Lingus strike threats.

I cannot find any real information about when this is likely to happen or what the state of play is. Has anyone managed to figure out when this is likely to happen? My inclination is to just book anyway but I'd be interested in any info that anyone might have gleaned.

Thanks!

Book anyway and if there is a strike, which will probably be averted anyway, they'll have to put you on another flight, but in the mean time, flights may be at a lower price to avoid putting people off due to the strike threat.

looksee

Thanks for that! Its pretty well word for word what I am thinking.

roundymac

w.rte.ie/aertel/110-01.html
Dos'nt give a date for the strike but you might get afeel for what it's about.

Turbine

There's no strike yet, all they've done is ballot for industrial action so that should it come to striking, they have a mandate to call one.

It won't come to that though, Aer Lingus in particular stand to lose too much. They shouldn't have to contribute to the pensions fund IMO, but they're better off just reaching a deal on the issue and be done with it and move on than dragging it out any further. It's only depressing the share price and putting off any potential investors.

Locker10a

I am flying from Dublin Airport on Aer Lingus in 2 weeks ! I am dreading a strike! I really hope it is sorted out im not bitter towards the staff or unions if i was in that position i would probably be so pissed off i would strike too but i just hope it is sorted out its time there was an intervention by someone and things were sorted out once and for all !

Turbine

Locker10a wrote: »

I am flying from Dublin Airport on Aer Lingus in 2 weeks ! I am dreading a strike! I really hope it is sorted out im not bitter towards the staff or unions if i was in that position i would probably be so pissed off i would strike too but i just hope it is sorted out its time there was an intervention by someone and things were sorted out once and for all !

ICTU have said it'll be 3 weeks before any strike is called (assuming it comes to that), so you're grand relax.

Locker10a

Turbine wrote: »

ICTU have said it'll be 3 weeks before any strike is called (assuming it comes to that), so you're grand relax.

Ohh thats great news (for me anyway) thanks, that will put my mind to rest! Still though for all parties involved i really hope this is sorted soon and peacefully too

looksee

That just puts me nicely in the timeframe. Anyway I have ensured that there will be a strike by booking my flight...

Locker10a

looksee wrote: »

That just puts me nicely in the timeframe. Anyway I have ensured that there will be a strike by booking my flight...

Thats if there is goin to be a strike! Its not confirmed and if it is decided to strike it is most times called off and if not you will be accomadated (you will be out on another airline or they will hire a charter flight for you)

L1011

If there's going to be a strike it will quite likely involve the DAA also - and if it does, you're not getting off the island to the US... airline irrespective.

urajoke

Turbine wrote: »

They shouldn't have to contribute to the pensions fund IMO

Why they have a HUGE responsibility to their employees to protect and monitor what is being done with the pension money, the vast majority of staff have no idea where their money is invested and don't run the pension scheme the company Chooses who runs it for them and the staff.

Yes the employees will have to contribute to rectify the scheme but the company will have to carry a huge amount of blame and responsibility to rectify it.

Unfortunately the DAA staff are wrapped up in this so the airports will shut down basically unless airlines are willing to fly without fire cover etc which I doubt for insurance reasons.

Shamrock231

Fire cover, baggage handling, customs and airport police, runway inspections, ILS monitoring, ect.All provided by the DAA, and all required to run a flight.

Aircraft need the adaquate fire category to be allowed operate legally, insuranc or no insurance, without cover there won't be an engine turning in that place...

Turbine

urajoke wrote: »

Why they have a HUGE responsibility to their employees to protect and monitor what is being done with the pension money, the vast majority of staff have no idea where their money is invested and don't run the pension scheme the company Chooses who runs it for them and the staff.

Yes the employees will have to contribute to rectify the scheme but the company will have to carry a huge amount of blame and responsibility to rectify it.

This pension scheme was created before the privatisation of Aer Lingus and involved them, the DAA, and SR Technics. SR Technics shut down their Dublin operation and walked away from their pension commitments, and they're still a profitable company operating in Ireland. So why should Aer Lingus have to cover the pension shortfall left by SRT and essentially pay for the pensions of DAA employees who have better pension entitlements than new Aer Lingus employees? (At least that's my understanding of it)

Dacian

looksee wrote: »

I was just about to book a flight to the US on Aer Lingus in September when my son phoned to say that he had heard on the news that there was a chance of strike action.

I don't care (sorry!) about why they are striking, I just put that in the title to differentiate it from the other Dublin Airport/Aer Lingus strike threats.

I cannot find any real information about when this is likely to happen or what the state of play is...............

There is a chance of industrial action however as posters above have pointed out:
It involves the DAA too so I would worry more about them than EI. DAA action would affect all airlines. EI are actually in a better position, according to their H1 results they have the cash reserves to actually be able to assist with the pension situation.

(The Irish Times today had an article stating that a judge ruled that EI need to address the deficit before reducing cash reserves through shareholder dividend, he states that they have moral obligation to do so)

urajoke

Turbine wrote: »

This pension scheme was created before the privatisation of Aer Lingus and involved them, the DAA, and SR Technics. SR Technics shut down their Dublin operation and walked away from their pension commitments, and they're still a profitable company operating in Ireland. So why should Aer Lingus have to cover the pension shortfall left by SRT and essentially pay for the pensions of DAA employees who have better pension entitlements than new Aer Lingus employees? (At least that's my understanding of it)

Obviously it will ALL come out in the wash as to what Aer lingus will have to cover but they are responsible for their own employees the DAA for theirs etc.

Hopefully for everyone involved it will mean the splitting up of the pension scheme, a crazy one to have initiated.

coylemj

urajoke wrote: »

Obviously it will ALL come out in the wash as to what Aer lingus will have to cover but they are responsible for their own employees the DAA for theirs etc.

Hopefully for everyone involved it will mean the splitting up of the pension scheme, a crazy one to have initiated.

Didn't the Aer Lingus flotation involve the new PLC divorcing itself from the amalgamated aviation pension scheme and didn't the AL employees accept shares as part of the IPO under those conditions i.e. here's some shares and welcome to the brave new world of a DC pension?

Can't see how they figure they can come back to the trough now.

Dacian

coylemj wrote: »

Didn't the Aer Lingus flotation involve the new PLC divorcing itself from the amalgamated aviation pension scheme and didn't the AL employees accept shares as part of the IPO under those conditions i.e. here's some shares and welcome to the brave new world of a DC pension?

Can't see how they figure they can come back to the trough now.

Er....No.

The IPO disn't have any discussion about the pensions funds.

The current archaic pension set-up is a legacy of the 1950's/60's when Aer Rianta/Aer Lingus/Aerlinte Eireainn were all state companies.

No-one has had the nerve to attempt to separate/revise/end the outdated scheme since these companies became private or sold off (in the case of Team AerLingus/FLS/SRT Technics)

coylemj

Dacian wrote: »

Er....No.

The IPO disn't have any discussion about the pensions funds.

The current archaic pension set-up is a legacy of the 1950's/60's when Aer Rianta/Aer Lingus/Aerlinte Eireainn were all state companies.

No-one has had the nerve to attempt to separate/revise/end the outdated scheme since these companies became private or sold off (in the case of Team AerLingus/FLS/SRT Technics)

That seems to be the situation right enough, there was no formal divorce. However AL appears to have taken the view that the plc does not have any legal obligation to make up any shortfall.

CEO rules out Aer Lingus pension fund top-up

At the time of its flotation in 2006, the airline made a once-off payment into the pension scheme of about €100 million and stated that its firm legal advice was that it did not have any obligation to make additional payments into the scheme in the event of a default.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0229/1224312523193.html

urajoke

Considering the amount of staff involved it wouldn't actually take that much money over a short number of years to plug the gap with company involvement and the best pension fund managers should be able to regain the
Loses by 2020 and secure the pension.

This I imagine will go to the LC and they will decide all parties will have to pay.

coylemj

The problem isn't really that the money hasn't been invested wisely, it's the way pension funds are audited and stress tested.

The stress test for a pension fund in Ireland is based on the following scenario....

If the fund was wound up today, would there be enough money to provide annuities for existing pensioners and sufficient cash left to cover the accumulated benefits of deferred pensioners and serving members.

The scenario of buying annuities for existing pensioners is the problem, it says that the fund has to be raided and the trustees buy annuities to cover the pensions of retired members but with annuity rates currently at rock bottom, those annuities will cost a lot more than they would have a few years ago, hence almost all pension funds in Ireland are in deficit as measured by this rule.

urajoke

Correct the EU stupidly screwed every pension fund but many were left exposed by silly investing in exposed investments that should never have been done with pension money.

At the end of the day you won't see the benefit of high returns in a defined benefit scheme only the company will as it will reduce the amount they will have to contribute. I'm not swing that that has happened here as I don't know the ins and outs of this scheme.


N.B. I may have got some of my terms wrong I'm not a pensions expert.

Tabnabs

Just an update to this, looking more likely now.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0827/1224323032711.html

polydactyl

Due out on my honeymoon on Oct 1st. Have scrimped and saved every penny for this. Transatlantic. Anyone any idea if the "rolling strike" means we hae more or less chance of getting out??

shamwari

Am also due to fly to Glasgow with EI on October 1st, although they (I believe) are using Aer Arran aircraft. If this strike goes ahead, will the Aer Arran stuff be affected as well?

Shamrock231

DAA are also striking, so no matter the carrier you're grounded. The DAA provide handeling and security for the whole airport, no ones going anywhere...

kub

Shamrock231 wrote: »

DAA are also striking, so no matter the carrier you're grounded. The DAA provide handeling and security for the whole airport, no ones going anywhere...

Its just as well that the good all ferries are running so. Security at airports and the delays which security has caused, has certainly made people think about ferry's.

Unions keep it lads, another reason for people not to fly to UK.

dubdaymo

Shamrock231 wrote: »

DAA are also striking, so no matter the carrier you're grounded. The DAA provide handeling and security for the whole airport, no ones going anywhere...

So, you're saying that because the Aer Lingus/DAA Unions can't get their way, their intention is to close the three airports down and cause great disruption to all the other airlines which are not in any way involved in this dispute and to people going about their ordinary business?

Shamrock231

dubdaymo wrote: »

So, you're saying that because the Aer Lingus/DAA Unions can't get their way, their intention is to close the three airports down and cause great disruption to all the other airlines which are not in any way involved in this dispute and to people going about their ordinary business?

Isn't that the purpose if a strike? I'm not saying I think it's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is. If you want to fly on that day, Knock shouldn't be effected, or Belfast...

stevedublin

dubdaymo wrote: »

So, you're saying that because the Aer Lingus/DAA Unions can't get their way, their intention is to close the three airports down and cause great disruption to all the other airlines which are not in any way involved in this dispute and to people going about their ordinary business?

Their intention is to achieve a satisfactory resolution to the pensions dispute.

imfml

The airports closing won't be because of Aer Lingus, purely down to the DAA branch of SIPTU, which have given notice for different days.

As far as I am aware from media reports, DAA are taking industrial action (not strike) on Sept21st and Aer Lingus cabin crew (also not full strike) on Oct 1st.

As per usual I'd imagine this could well be extended or averted. Not the best time to go on strike in the aviation industry, as companies usually lose money in Oct & Nov. If ticket price drops because of these threats I'd certainly take advantage.

Shamrock231

stevedublin wrote: »

Their intention is to achieve a satisfactory resolution to the pensions dispute.

Exactly, I think if most of us were in their shoes and our union told us if we strike our company will likely fix the pension we'd been paying into for years then we'd do it. Not right to effect everyone, but I'm not of the opinion that the strike will go ahead anyway, and that it will be resolved before then...

dubdaymo

stevedublin wrote: »

Their intention is to achieve a satisfactory resolution to the pensions dispute.

....and they don't give a highlanders who else suffers in the process. Bring back Ronald Reagan. He knew how to handle these situations.

kub

dubdaymo wrote: »

....and they don't give a highlanders who else suffers in the process. Bring back Ronald Reagan. He knew how to handle these situations.

And Maggie Thatcher with him. Or even the South African Police ( the recent miners strikes).

Dacian

imfml wrote: »

The airports closing won't be because of Aer Lingus, purely down to the DAA branch of SIPTU, which have given notice for different days.

As far as I am aware from media reports, DAA are taking industrial action (not strike) on Sept21st and Aer Lingus cabin crew (also not full strike) on Oct 1st.

So far SIPTU have served strike notice on the DAA and Aer Lingus. EI cabin are 90% represented by a different union so they have not given notice of strike. SIPTU are the largest union in both companies as far as I am aware.

In actual fact EI crew very recently declined a small salary increase that was granted to all other sections last year as part of the Greenfield plan.

highlydebased

imfml wrote: »

The airports closing won't be because of Aer Lingus, purely down to the DAA branch of SIPTU, which have given notice for different days.

As far as I am aware from media reports, DAA are taking industrial action (not strike) on Sept21st and Aer Lingus cabin crew (also not full strike) on Oct 1st.

As per usual I'd imagine this could well be extended or averted. Not the best time to go on strike in the aviation industry, as companies usually lose money in Oct & Nov. If ticket price drops because of these threats I'd certainly take advantage.

The date originally served was 20th September but now both are saying 1st October- nothing about the 21st.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911890.html

blue10

I am due to fly with Aer Lingus on the evening on Monday 1 October but am getting quite worried now that I've heard there will be a strike. How much disruption do you think this will cause? Does anybody know what Aer Lingus' policy is regarding disruption caused by strikes? - ie will I be able to get a refund and then fly with a different airline (changing the date of my flight is no good as I have to fly on the Monday)

jtown

Im due to fly on the 2nd at 6.30am. What are the chances of flight not going? :mad:

dubdaymo

blue10/jtown, when you book with Aer Lingus you always run the risk that a strike or strike threat will be around to worry you as your flight date gets nearer. It depends on whose turn (among the various sections) it is to take industrial action.

If you read this whole thread you will be told that the trade union SIPTU intends to close Dublin/Cork/Shannon airports for at least a few hours on 1st October by withdrawing certain essential operations so nobody can fly into or out of these main airports. In addition SIPTU has also served similar notice on Aer Lingus so there is a double-barrel problem for Aer Lingus flights. Cynics would say that the airport is being closed so that, unlike the last time, Aer Lingus can't hire in Ryanair planes to operate on their behalf during a strike.

Whatever about the Aer Lingus situation where only THEIR passengers would be affected, the sooner legislation is enacted to prevent these self-interest groups having the power to close entire airports the better.

At this stage nobody knows whether flights affected on the day will be just delayed for a few hours or cancelled or whether the action will be called off.

blue10

Thanks for the reply dubdaymo, it is indeed very worrying that one group has the power to effectively shut-down the country's three main airports and national airline.
Saw on the news that Aer Lingus would be contacting their passengers who are due to fly on the 1st October, still haven't heard anything from them though ...just kinda hoping at this stage that no news is good news and maybe, just maybe, the action will be called off soon

Kumsheen

It will all boil down to whether the DAA Rescue and fire service go out. If they do then the Airport will shut as before.

All the other services can probably be worked around but still likely to cause big delays.

lotusm

Think the aerlingus is in there hole for 750 million ... no way are the present workers ever going to get back what they put in .... and the Taxpayer aint going to pay up and rightly so...if I were them I be putting my pension contribution saving in the post office ... safe pays a bit of interest ( not a lot ) but at least you have something when you retire... as for private pension schemes it a roulette wheel if you make anything and I m one...
Also they should not be allowed to shut down the main airports in this country and that why they should all be privatised... Knock wont for instanace

polydactyl

Does anyone have any further info? The lack of news or information is weird and frustrating so say the least.

dubdaymo

Hot off the press:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0925/dublin-airport-authority-siptu.html

basill

I am amazed by the lack of sympathy towards these folk who are staring down the barrel of little or no pension in retirement. Put yourselves in their shoes and ask yourself if you wouldn't be slightly miffed having paid into a final salary pension for all these years only to be sold a pup. You don't expect them to live off what the govt pays now do you? In fact its probably worse as they are not entitled even to that. Not that we should be to worried about a state pension since no doubt the Troika will put an end to that soon enough.

If you want someone to blame then look no further than the govt and its regulator. They both looked on when the likes of SRT washed their hands and flew away back to Switzerland contributing nothing to the deficit and leaving a whole bunch of people on the dole.

All the parties involved have known for years that they had a problem and should have got it sorted. The various entities should have split the pensions off for a start years ago when AL was listed.

Krooger

basill wrote: »

I am amazed by the lack of sympathy towards these folk who are staring down the barrel of little or no pension in retirement.

I am amazed by the lack of sympathy for the general public who have absolutely nothing to do with this and happen to be unlucky enough to have booked their flight around early october. People visiting relatives abroad, honeymoons, holidays, work trips, etc. Yeah let's screw all them over to prove a point.

I'm fairly sure what they're doing is illegal anyway and the high court injunction will stop complete airport closures.

L1011

lotusm wrote: »

Think the aerlingus is in there hole for 750 million

The pension fund is for Aer Lingus, SR Technics and the DAA - EI aren't going to be liable for 100% of the defecit no matter what is determined.

fozz10

they dont give a sh*t about the public otherwise they wouldnt do it. simple. we are due to fly out with aer lingus on monday for our honeymoon that we have been lookin forward to all year. now this will just make sure that we cant enjoy our wedding friday as we will be worrying all week about it. sympathy towards them yea f*ckin right

dubdaymo

basill wrote: »

I am amazed by the lack of sympathy towards these folk

Don't make me laugh. Sympathy towards a crowd of so-and-so's that have shown nothing but contempt for the public over the years with selfish strikes and threats of strikes for as long as I can remember (and not just at the airport) - and the manipulated mugs in the union continue to fork out subs week after week to cover the 6-figure wages of their lords and masters - the ones who will never be affected financially by strikes and are laughing all the way to the bank.
My sympathies go to the likes of fozz10, blue10 and jtown and the other thousands of worried people. I can think of a few words that could be used with the letters S.I.P.T.U but I couldn't use them on this Forum.

polydactyl

fozz10 wrote: »

they dont give a sh*t about the public otherwise they wouldnt do it. simple. we are due to fly out with aer lingus on monday for our honeymoon that we have been lookin forward to all year. now this will just make sure that we cant enjoy our wedding friday as we will be worrying all week about it. sympathy towards them yea f*ckin right

Exact same situation. Has really cast a shadow over our wedding and try as I might I can't stop worrying about it. Have been looking forward to this holiday for a few years!!! I hope for everyone the High Court forces them back into the LRC to talk and strike is cancelled.

phillo65

Same as above,flying Monday with Aer Lingus.Honeymoon well looked forward to.I am a member of SIPTU but cant see how any sympathy or support can be gained by p###ing off other working class people who have worked and saved hard for their holiday.