Sean Quinn - whats the business view

sandin · 31-07-2012 7:47am #1

Thought I'd start a thread on what business people think of the current Sean Quinn debacle.
It seems to be a very one sided debate with a lot of the hirearchy in the banking / judicial / legal field very negative to him and what he has been doing.

My opinion is that there is a lot of stuff still to be uncovered. I don't believe that Sean Quinn is a brilliant businessman, but he was brilliant at developing a business and wasn't afraid to get the right people in to grow the business. I would say he was a visionary in his field and that his weak point was that he put too much trust into some people and whilst it worked out for most things, some people took advantage.

I think it was very strange that for someone who diversified his business so much that when he played the stock market it was a one way gamble of Anglo Irish Bank. That to me is totally out of character for someone who spread his vision from cement to glass to insurance to pubs to golf clubs to hotels and even radiators.

Sean Quinn claims that he was suckered into the gamble by Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irihs Bank. This is the same Sean Fitpatrick that most people blame for the current crisis. It is also the same Sean Fitzpatrick that is before the courts on serious fraud offences and the same Sean Fitzpatrick who went on to the Late Late Show just after the last set of Anglo Irish Ban accounts were published and brazenly said that deposits in the bank had "increased" in the previous quarter and that the bank was very healthy and had no issues whatsoever with liquidity and that the stated deposits showed that there was no run on the bank and that all the rumors in financial circles were fasle.

The shares in Anglo jumped after thos results and jumped again afer that interview. Sean Fitzpatrick knew damn well that he was telling a bunch of lies and that his bank was on the way down the plug hole and had been for the previous 12 months. Yet to save himself he convinced Sean Quinn that everythign was rosey and the gamble could not lose. He also convinced many others who bought shares in the period after the false accounts and who believed the claptrap he spouted on the late late show.

Whereas Sean Quinn continued at that time to expand his businesses and continued to create jobs.

Sorry, but I think Sean Quinn has been treated dreadfully by the legal system in Ireland and only hope that one day he will clear his name.

note - all statements above regarding Sean Fitzpatrick are verifiable and in the public domain. Also, I have never purchased Anglo shares nor ever had any delaing with Anglo Irish Bank nor and Quinn related company with exception of having insurance policies with Quinn Direct.

ontour2 · 31-07-2012 9:38am

The Quinn family were adventurous, innovative and hard working. They created thousands of jobs and the loyalty that they are receiving is not surprising. I am not convinced that they did bring in the necessary skills to manage the empire that they had built. They would have benefited from expertise in governance, risk and compliance and financial management guidance.

They bet the house on Anglo and lost and certainly there may have been an element of being duped in to it. I find it difficult to fathom that they put themselves forward as the captains of industry in their business areas but play the poor innocent country fool in their dealings with Anglo. Having said that I expect them to win a case against Anglo in the future.

What dissappoints me about the Quinns is that they should accept that they gambled and lost, give up the money they are hiding and start again. They built an empire once and they could do it again if they got over their bitterness and misdirected energies.

Peterdalkey · 31-07-2012 9:49am

Clearly “Quinnspin” works. I am frankly amazed at how many people have been takin in by the plight of a man who was clearly out of control, a veritable megalomaniac who gambled the lot on trying to get control of a bank. He lost and now thinks he should not have to pay. His prior business practices were clearly more than dubious with some extraordinary financial engineering moves to forgive intercompany debt and enrich his family. It is no coincidence that many of his "family" investments were in the murky zones of the former USSR where the rule of law is down to individual interpretation.

If you look at the major business that Quinn was involved in, he sought to dominate in those sectors by predatory pricing to capture market share at any price. A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

In addition to the Anglo gambling bill left behind, he bled Quinn Insurance to prop up his group by raping the cash out of that business and has left us all with another 1 Billion to pick up on his behalf over the next twenty years in insurance levies.

Quinn is far from alone, the Treasury Boys, Brian O’Donnell, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Shovlin, Bernard McNamara , Liam Carroll, Dunner, Drumm , Fingers, Seanie, ... the list goes on and on
These empire builders who obviously saw themselves as masters of the universe have badly tainted the reputation of all of us who run businesses. The mass of debt left behind by these guys will be paid by our children and our children’s children, but Quinn seems to still believe that his kids should keep their incomes and personal wealth. Ah God love him, the man is not well in the head. He should seek advice from Pee Flynn.

I am pie · 31-07-2012 10:12am

History will look at Mr Quinn in the same light as any of the other pre-crisis ponzi scheme operators. He ran an insurance company with insufficient reserves, and a pricing model which any other organisation would view as predatory and extremely short sighted. The foundations were built on sand, and we know how that parable pans out. Risk was not adequately covered by premium reserve, to the point that it became illegal, at that point some of the risk transfers to the customers as they risk not receiving compensation for claims.

The subsequent transfer of equity from insurance company to anglo and anglo loan for shares scandal again were illegal and completely in line with the maniacal actions of a ponzi scheme operator.

Quinn acted illegally and was afforded the opportunity to hand over assets. The he chose to believe he is above the law of the land and keep hold of his assets highlights how much he lost touch with reality.

History will not judge him kindly in a personal and professional context. When you transfer risk out of your company and onto the tax payer you deserve the punishment handed out in court.

I'm amazed at the parish pump mentality on display in some section of the border counties in relation to the disgraced Quinn group. The jobs they celebrate are now on a solid footing thanks to Liberty insurance, that's who they should be trumpeting and rallying around !

smeharg · 31-07-2012 11:07am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

... He lost and now thinks he should not have to pay.

He has paid - he has lost the entire Quinn Group. Probably worth more than Anglo's claims over him and his family.

Peterdalkey wrote: »

...
If you look at the major business that Quinn was involved in, he sought to dominate in those sectors by predatory pricing to capture market share at any price. A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.

Peterdalkey wrote: »

...
Quinn is far from alone, the Treasury Boys, Brian O’Donnell, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Shovlin, Bernard McNamara , Liam Carroll, Dunner, Drumm , Fingers, Seanie, ... the list goes on and on

There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

I can understand why Sean Quinn has such support in the Border area. One just needs to take a drive from Ballyconnell to Derrylin to see what I mean. This area, which was blighted by the troubles in the years when Sean Quinn was investing and building his businesses, would be derelict now if it wasn't for his vision.

But it's difficult, maybe impossible, to reconcile that with his actions over the past year and the findings of the High Court.

The media now seem to be implying that Sean Quinn's "investment" in Anglo is what brought about its collapse and consequently the entire Irish banking sector and economy. That is just not true. Anglo believed at the time that its share price was driven down by Sean Quinn's CFD holding ,but the reality was the construction sector was contracting and Anglo was over exposed to it.

The Irish economy was too concentrated on one sector and the Irish banks too heavily exposed to that sector. When that sector collapsed the whole thing spiralled out of control.

What concerns me is the apparent disconnect between state bodies: Anglo on one hand fighting a court battle with the Quinn family over the disputed €2.8 bn in loans; and the ODCE on the other seemingly at odds with Anglo's stance by prosecuting the people that issued those loans. If ODCE is successful what impact will that have on the Anglo/Quinn case?

Quinn tried to work with Anglo - Anglo refused to cooperate. If those loans were for property development they would have been transferred to Nama and everything would be rosy. But they weren't. Instead Anglo insisted on giving Sean Quinn a life sentence in the form of a 12 year bankruptcy - what benefit will Anglo actually get from that? Perhaps Sean Quinn would have started another business, created more employment, but we'll probably never know.

In Sean Quinn's defence I think it is very easy for all of us to make statements about his wrongdoing etc etc. But until we're in the situation where we've lost almost everything we don't know how we'd react. Most people, I would suggest, would do everything within their power to protect what they believe is theirs. How far one would take that depends on the resources they have at their disposal and how they can justify their actions to themselves. What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

Peterdalkey · 31-07-2012 11:14am

smeharg wrote: »

He has paid - he has lost the entire Quinn Group. Probably worth more than Anglo's claims over him and his family.

Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.

There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

I can understand why Sean Quinn has such support in the Border area. One just needs to take a drive from Ballyconnell to Derrylin to see what I mean. This area, which was blighted by the troubles in the years when Sean Quinn was investing and building his businesses, would be derelict now if it wasn't for his vision.

But it's difficult, maybe impossible, to reconcile that with his actions over the past year and the findings of the High Court.

The media now seem to be implying that Sean Quinn's "investment" in Anglo is what brought about its collapse and consequently the entire Irish banking sector and economy. That is just not true. Anglo believed at the time that its share price was driven down by Sean Quinn's CFD holding ,but the reality was the construction sector was contracting and Anglo was over exposed to it.

The Irish economy was too concentrated on one sector and the Irish banks too heavily exposed to that sector. When that sector collapsed the whole thing spiralled out of control.

What concerns me is the apparent disconnect between state bodies: Anglo on one hand fighting a court battle with the Quinn family over the disputed €2.8 bn in loans; and the ODCE on the other seemingly at odds with Anglo's stance by prosecuting the people that issued those loans. If ODCE is successful what impact will that have on the Anglo/Quinn case?

Quinn tried to work with Anglo - Anglo refused to cooperate. If those loans were for property development they would have been transferred to Nama and everything would be rosy. But they weren't. Instead Anglo insisted on giving Sean Quinn a life sentence in the form of a 12 year bankruptcy - what benefit will Anglo actually get from that? Perhaps Sean Quinn would have started another business, created more employment, but we'll probably never know.

In Sean Quinn's defence I think it is very easy for all of us to make statements about his wrongdoing etc etc. But until we're in the situation where we've lost almost everything we don't know how we'd react. Most people, I would suggest, would do everything within their power to protect what they believe is theirs. How far one would take that depends on the resources they have at their disposal and how they can justify their actions to themselves. What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

The Quinn empire was a ball of smoke run by a crazed greedy man who got found out and now has to face the truth. I suspect the facts will never get in the way of those too blind to see. Smoke gets in their eyes?

I am pie · 31-07-2012 11:16am

smeharg wrote: »

Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.

There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

Nonsense.

They are operating because they have been taken over by competent operator able to work within the constraint of law. Quinn's companies were completely unsustainable as they operated illegally and with short term pricing models and unacepptable risk transfer / risk management policies. He kept the costs down not keeping enough premium reserves to cover the risks insured, this isn't a business master stroke, it's illegal and immoral.

Quinn was destroying what he had created on sandstone foundations.

Only in Ireland would we celebrate this, parish pump imbecility leads us to do so.

In the US he would already be in jail.

I am pie · 31-07-2012 11:17am

smeharg wrote: »

What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

Which is why we have the rule of law, which applies to everyone. No amount of mealy mouthed nonsense excuses Mr Quinn from prosecution.

smeharg · 31-07-2012 11:21am

I am pie wrote: »

Nonsense.

They are operating because they have been taken over by competent operator able to work within the constraint of law. Quinn's companies were completely unsustainable as they operated illegally and with short term pricing models and unacepptable risk transfer / risk management policies. He kept the costs down not keeping enough premium reserves to cover the risks insured, this isn't a business master stroke, it's illegal and immoral.

Quinn was destroying what he had created on sandstone foundations.

Only in Ireland would we celebrate this, parish pump imbecility leads us to do so.

In the US he would already be in jail.

Quinn insurance was one business in the Quinn Group.

As far as I know none of the Quinn Group companies has gone out of business.

What is celebrated is the jobs he created. Jobs that are still there.

Tow · 31-07-2012 11:29am

sandin wrote: »

Sean Quinn claims that he was suckered into the gamble by Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irihs Bank. This is the same Sean Fitpatrick that most people blame for the current crisis.

If you read Anglo Republic, you will see that Fitzpatrick and Co did not want any one person to own more than a couple of percent of Anglo and they had a fit when they found out how much Quinn had bought.

I am pie · 31-07-2012 11:31am

smeharg wrote: »

Quinn insurance was one business in the Quinn Group.

As far as I know none of the Quinn Group companies has gone out of business.

What is celebrated is the jobs he created. Jobs that are still there.

He created jobs, ran an illegal and immoral insurance company and blew the lot on an illegal share deal with anglo aimed at enriching himself, leaves the Irish taxpayer with billions of debt and yet we should celebrate him?

We should celebrate the day he goes to jail.

smeharg · 31-07-2012 11:45am

I am pie wrote: »

He created jobs, ran an illegal and immoral insurance company and blew the lot on an illegal share deal with anglo aimed at enriching himself, leaves the Irish taxpayer with billions of debt and yet we should celebrate him?

We should celebrate the day he goes to jail.

Perhaps. If the insurance company was so "illegal and immoral" it would've been wound down. Instead it was acquired by a global brand that stated at handover that it would turn a profit within 6 months.

Having said that, as another poster suggested, he may not have got the right people in with the skills required to run an insurance company. It's my opinion that he thought he could run his insurance business like he did his cement and other businesses, which you can't do with a regulated entity.

I think you need to educate yourself on the Anglo "share deal". The purpose of that arrangement was to unwind Sean Quinn's CFD holding in Anglo. Far from enriching himself it burdoned him and his family with €2.8bn in debt and ultimately left him bankrupt.

The Quinn supporters may have blinkered view of the situation and I've tried to explain that stance. That blinkered view is clearly balanced by your equally narrow view.

sandin · 31-07-2012 12:05pm

Some interesting views and good debate.

I think the financial iregularities in the insurance arm cam after the gamble on Anglo. Prior to that he ran a vary large and diversified company.

I just can't see how the whole direction changed from mass diversification to suddenly gambling everything on one single entity.

Possibly it was siblings/nephews that came in and changed the game, possibly he was fooled by Anglo, possibly he just an an eureka moment.

I do believe there is a lot of stuff no-one has heard. I also believe that the justice system here is quite fair and the shennanigans with hiding the assets was not right and need to be undone - but there's something underneath all this that needs to be unraveled and it is going to be a very interesting case to follow. Its just with Sean Fitzpatrick involved, I would be very suspicious of taking everything written to date as gospel as in my opinion Sean Fitzpatrick was more cunning than Charlie Haughey & Bertie Aherne combined.

If Sean Quinn ever writes a book, it will be interesting reading.

Bandara · 31-07-2012 12:08pm

sandin wrote: »

If Sean Quinn ever writes a book, it will be interesting reading.

but would you actually believe a word of it?

sandin · 31-07-2012 1:05pm

Hammertime wrote: »

but would you actually believe a word of it?

Dunno - but it would be more they way he was thinking at the time and the thought process of suddenly going from wide diversification to gambling everything on one horse.

Of course if it worked he would have hit paydirt, but with all the hedge funds betting against Anglo and Sean Fitzpatrick having inside knowledge there's just something fishy about the whole thing. And whilst I doubt if Sean Quinn is the sint he claims he is, his history prior to getting involved with Anglo just doesn't add up and therefore I would lend some credence to his claims that he is a fall guy for something that is a lot bigger.

flutered · 31-07-2012 1:20pm

i remember reading back in the good times of all the employment that he created, fair dues, but it was at a cost to the employees, none of which had a renumeration to match their work, one took the plane or the boat or worked for quinn, the last was the easiest because most people were doing it, his wage wage structure was worse to what some in the public sector are putting up with now.

smeharg · 31-07-2012 1:26pm

flutered wrote: »

i remember reading back in the good times of all the employment that he created, fair dues, but it was at a cost to the employees, none of which had a renumeration to match their work, one took the plane or the boat or worked for quinn, the last was the easiest because most people were doing it, his wage wage structure was worse to what some in the public sector are putting up with now.

If that was the case then surely those employees would now be saying he deserves everything he gets?

Public sector has an excellent pay structure - guaranteed pay increases and establihshed career path progression.

Nuttzz · 31-07-2012 1:31pm

He borrowed money, he decided to spend it on Anglo, he could have spent it on horses, hotels, hookers and coke, it doesnt really matter.

Just like the people who borrowed money just like buy to let investors in 2004 to buy €300k one bed apartments, their bet has gone sour and now they have to pay the bank back, just because he borrowed an extraordinary amount of money doesnt make him any different to the bloke who borrows €1000 from the credit union in my book.

Peterdalkey · 31-07-2012 1:47pm

sandin wrote: »

Dunno - but it would be more they way he was thinking at the time and the thought process of suddenly going from wide diversification to gambling everything on one horse.

Of course if it worked he would have hit paydirt, but with all the hedge funds betting against Anglo and Sean Fitzpatrick having inside knowledge there's just something fishy about the whole thing. And whilst I doubt if Sean Quinn is the sint he claims he is, his history prior to getting involved with Anglo just doesn't add up and therefore I would lend some credence to his claims that he is a fall guy for something that is a lot bigger.

Quinn has long been a subject of controversy in the North, in the earlier days of his quarrying business he was investigated by the British government for being involved in alleged inflated grant claims for production machinery under the roads improvement schemes of the day.

The way he used/pillaged the cash cow that Quinn Direct became along with huge borrowings from banks and US bondholders was an extraordinary feat, the fact remains that the businesses were over borrowed and were overly dependent on the construction sector and grew based on being lowest price in every market. The cash situation of the group was further exacerbated by the huge investment in overseas property punts, largely structured for the benefit of family members by way of all kinds of inter-company debt forgiveness mechanisms. It would now seem that he knew a long time ago that the family jewels needed to be separated from the fate of the businesses. It was an accident waiting to happen, add in the runaway train piloted by Seanie Fitz meeting the Quinn Express coming the other way on a single line track, we got the inevitable result.

How could anyone trust someone who refers to their own honesty and integrity in every second sentence and then proceeds top refer to themselves in the third part. I am minded of Liam Lawler and other great billionaire entrepreneurs of our age including Jim Mansfield et al.

EricPraline · 31-07-2012 6:07pm

smeharg wrote: »

Perhaps. If the insurance company was so "illegal and immoral" it would've been wound down. Instead it was acquired by a global brand that stated at handover that it would turn a profit within 6 months.

Having said that, as another poster suggested, he may not have got the right people in with the skills required to run an insurance company. It's my opinion that he thought he could run his insurance business like he did his cement and other businesses, which you can't do with a regulated entity.

It appears that his loose and lax attitude to his insurance business will mean tax-payers are likely to continue to pay for his mistakes via a levy on their insurance further into the future than originally anticipated.

When the matter was before the court in October last year, Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns approved a potential pay out of €738m from the Insurance Compensation Fund to deal with the issues arising from the administration of Quinn Insurance. However, today he was told the joint administrators believed they could need €1.65bn in a worst-case scenario.

...

Mr Dunleavy said there had been a culture in Quinn Insurance, particularly in the UK, of under-estimating and under-provisioning the reserves needed for claims and the administrators were adopting a more prudent approach.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0731/quinn-insurance-administration-could-cost-1-6bn.html

micosoft · 31-07-2012 10:21pm

sandin wrote: »

Thought I'd start a thread on what business people think of the current Sean Quinn debacle.
It seems to be a very one sided debate with a lot of the hirearchy in the banking / judicial / legal field very negative to him and what he has been doing.

So you believe that a massive conspiracy exists consisting of the banking sector, our Judiciary, and legal system? To suggest that's far fetched would be an understatement. Is it possible that the reason that Sean is in so much trouble is because the facts show in this case he engaged in a systematic scheme to defraud the Irish Taxpayer of money that rightly belonged to the Irish People.

sandin wrote: »

My opinion is that there is a lot of stuff still to be uncovered. I don't believe that Sean Quinn is a brilliant businessman, but he was brilliant at developing a business and wasn't afraid to get the right people in to grow the business. I would say he was a visionary in his field and that his weak point was that he put too much trust into some people and whilst it worked out for most things, some people took advantage.

The only thing being undercovered is the reckless nature of Sean Quinn. Only this evening have we discovered the actual hole in Quinn Insurance is now €1.6 Billion. This was a deliberate fraud on anyone that insured their home or car with Quinn Insurance. And every single one of us will pay for this with the 2% levy on Insurance policies for the next 10 years.

sandin wrote: »

I think it was very strange that for someone who diversified his business so much that when he played the stock market it was a one way gamble of Anglo Irish Bank. That to me is totally out of character for someone who spread his vision from cement to glass to insurance to pubs to golf clubs to hotels and even radiators.

What are you trying to say here? This was entirely in character for Quinn. What does "spread his vision" even mean in English. The man took punts in many markets. In many cases it worked out. But like any gambler you get found out in the end. The evidence is increasingly showing that for a very long period of time (from the mid nineties) that Quinn Insurance was being used as a piggy bank. There is real form here.

sandin wrote: »

Sean Quinn claims that he was suckered into the gamble by Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irihs Bank. This is the same Sean Fitpatrick that most people blame for the current crisis. It is also the same Sean Fitzpatrick that is before the courts on serious fraud offences and the same Sean Fitzpatrick who went on to the Late Late Show just after the last set of Anglo Irish Ban accounts were published and brazenly said that deposits in the bank had "increased" in the previous quarter and that the bank was very healthy and had no issues whatsoever with liquidity and that the stated deposits showed that there was no run on the bank and that all the rumors in financial circles were fasle.

This is the heart of the lie. Neither Anglo or Fitzpatrick knew that Quinn has built up this massive shareholding in Anglo. The evidence for this is that Quinn used contracts for difference to build his stake. Neither Fitzpatrick (or Drumm the CEO) had any idea of what was happening and they DID NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

Furthermore Sean Quinn built up MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE contracts for difference (CFD's) in Anglo Irish Bank using money he did not have. He then used other peoples money (Insurance reserves) to try to make this good.

Essentially any illegal activities that Sean Fitzpatrick allegedly may have committed (transfer of 70m loans to avoid audit) pale into insignificance to the sheer illegality of what Quinn allegedly committed before during and after (the after is what he is in trouble for now).

As an aside, reprehensible as Fitzpatrick was, this attempt to turn him into a bogeyman that singlehandedly drove Ireland into it's current state is as reprehensible as the "stab in the back" theory the Germans had. Simplistic nonsense used to support populist lies as espoused at the Cavan Rally and to avoid this nation looking critically at itself to understand why we failed so badly as a nation.

sandin wrote: »

The shares in Anglo jumped after thos results and jumped again afer that interview. Sean Fitzpatrick knew damn well that he was telling a bunch of lies and that his bank was on the way down the plug hole and had been for the previous 12 months. Yet to save himself he convinced Sean Quinn that everythign was rosey and the gamble could not lose. He also convinced many others who bought shares in the period after the false accounts and who believed the claptrap he spouted on the late late show.

You seriously expect us to believe that Sean Quinn based an investment of billions based on high risk CFD's on a late late show? Seriously? Do you listen to your own words? Fitzpatrick had nothing to do with the build up of his stake in Anglo. As soon as they discover what Quinn was doing they tried to unwind it (in a separate case which Fitzpatrick is being brought to book for). Quinn made the Anglo Disaster and even bigger disaster.

sandin wrote: »

Whereas Sean Quinn continued at that time to expand his businesses and continued to create jobs.

Yes - he created some jobs. And in a part of the country where jobs were hard to come by. That's great but simply does not in any way mitigate the great wrongs he has committed with other peoples money.

sandin wrote: »

Sorry, but I think Sean Quinn has been treated dreadfully by the legal system in Ireland and only hope that one day he will clear his name.

I'm sorry for you too. He has freely and openly admitted to putting assets beyond the reach of the Irish People who own and run IRBC. He has admitted to this. There is no name to "clear" as even he accepts this. If you can't even grasp what your hero says what hope that you can make a judgement about the situation.

sandin wrote: »

note - all statements above regarding Sean Fitzpatrick are verifiable and in the public domain. Also, I have never purchased Anglo shares nor ever had any delaing with Anglo Irish Bank nor and Quinn related company with exception of having insurance policies with Quinn Direct.

Your rambling interpretation of a Late Late Show you mean?

You want to know what I think? I think that it is people like you who are the heart and core of the problems we have in Ireland now. Despite stealing your money from your insurance premium to support his position you still support Quinn based on some "ah sure he created jobs in the border counties" line.

It's not the corrupt TD, the neighbour with the broken septic tank, the banker who lent too much money, the small business man who dumps rubbish in nature reserves, etc who are to blame for where we are. It's not even Fitzpatrick........

It's the "ordinary" Oirish voter who looks the other way because "ahh sure he sorts the roads/supports local businesses/creates jobs so we shouldn't question them". It's because the Irish Voter has proven time and again to let them away with it. With Democracy come consequences and we reaping the whirlwind of our desire to look the other way on the off chance we'll get something out of it.

micosoft · 31-07-2012 10:41pm

Interesting article here contrasting Quinns claims with the facts of the matter.

PapaDragon · 31-07-2012 11:29pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

.

With all due respect I disagree with this statement entirely. You do not get to be one of the richest billionaires in the world purely by cutting prices. He did have something special.

Now what I always had was this opinion of sean quinn betting a fiver every friday night playing cards along with employing half of cavan. He did build up this image of a very simple man that just worked for a few bob.

Then, suddenly we learn of all this property, shopping centres and businesses around the globe. This completely went against the fostered image of sean quinn that he had carefully developed over the years. So what ? But this has people thinking he was greedy !

Now, he did take out loans, big loans from anglo to invest in Anglo for Cfd's, which is the equivalent of betting on two dogs to run straight down a road. I believe he should pay back all these loans. I also think he was wrong to borrow from the companies to fund the Anglo Investment. But I do not believe he is responsible for the bust of Anglo.The man has made mistakes which I am sure he freely admits.

Sean fitzpatrick, brian cowen, the government and the rest all had an agenda back then. But now someone has to take a fall. This is going to be sean quinn. The maple ten were heavily involved. Are they paying back their loans ? We see no mention of these people. Insurance levies ? listen, they were coming anyway with or without sean quinn's help.

Will sean Fitzpatrick go to jail ? Probably not as he knows too much and he will bring alot of people down with him if he does.

Then, on the other side, you have a woman travelling to london to get a developer's bankruptcy overturned so this developer can be declared bankrupt in Ireland ? Why is this government not going after the greedy developers that have made so many people homeless in ireland. Instead there too busy travelling the world chasing down a man that employed 7,500 people.

What a mess. Burn the bondholders yeah right. More like, lets hand over media dominance to one man that secured his wealth by dubious methods indeed.

What a farce.

micosoft · 01-08-2012 12:02am

PapaDragon wrote: »

With all due respect I disagree with this statement entirely. You do not get to be one of the richest billionaires in the world purely by cutting prices. He did have something special.

Actually a fair point. Nobody disputes he had great business acumen.

PapaDragon wrote: »

Now what I always had was this opinion of sean quinn betting a fiver every friday night playing cards along with employing half of cavan. He did build up this image of a very simple man that just worked for a few bob.

Then, suddenly we learn of all this property, shopping centres and businesses around the globe. This completely went against the fostered image of sean quinn that he had carefully developed over the years. So what ? But this has people thinking he was greedy !

Well. Wasn't he?

PapaDragon wrote: »

Now, he did take out loans, big loans from anglo to invest in Anglo for Cfd's, which is the equivalent of betting on two dogs to run straight down a road. I believe he should pay back all these loans. I also think he was wrong to borrow from the companies to fund the Anglo Investment. But I do not believe he is responsible for the bust of Anglo.The man has made mistakes which I am sure he freely admits.

No he didn't. He took out the CFD's from other parties unbeknownst to Anglo. When he got into trouble because the CFD's were going south he approached Anglo and it was at that point the Maple arrangement was kicked off to bail out Quinn using Anglo money. He is not entirely responsible for Anglo going of a cliff but he made the situation far worse for Anglo and indeed the country.

PapaDragon wrote: »

Sean fitzpatrick, brian cowen, the government and the rest all had an agenda back then. But now someone has to take a fall. This is going to be sean quinn. The maple ten were heavily involved. Are they paying back their loans ? We see no mention of these people. Insurance levies ? listen, they were coming anyway with or without sean quinn's help.

Well this is going straight into conspiracy theory. A conspiracy theory that does not even fit with the known facts. Timing does not support your theory (Quinn created the situation - Mapleport affair occurred BECAUSE of Quinn - why should they be punished for something Quinn created?). And how did you not notice that Fitzpatrick and two directors were arrested as well the other week? That's a stunning level of ignoring reality to suit your own agenda.

Insurance levies were created by the long term (read from late nineties) underfunding of Quinn Insurance through excessive risk taking especially in the UK market. This is fact.

PapaDragon wrote: »

Will sean Fitzpatrick go to jail ? Probably not as he knows too much and he will bring alot of people down with him if he does.

Then, on the other side, you have a woman travelling to london to get a developer's bankruptcy overturned so this developer can be declared bankrupt in Ireland ? Why is this government not going after the greedy developers that have made so many people homeless in ireland. Instead there too busy travelling the world chasing down a man that employed 7,500 people.

Complete speculation and conspiracy invention. Fitzpatrick has been charged after an extremely complex investigation.

Quinn is the greedy developer!!! If a developer deliberately salted away money belonging to the tax payer and point blank refused to reverse this on front of a judge they too would be serving contempt. In any case I agree that this developers should be persued. It's just that I recognise Quinn as a fellow traveller and in fact one of the worst. Many "developers" created thousands of jobs too you know!

PapaDragon wrote: »

What a mess. Burn the bondholders yeah right. More like, lets hand over media dominance to one man that secured his wealth by dubious methods indeed.

What a farce.

So what? Totally different issue. Unless the conspiracy theory has grown so large that every judge, Garda, lawyer, politician, Media Mogul..... in fact everyone in this country outside of Cavan are involved in the worlds greatest conspiracy to send down an ordinary decent man? Give over. The only farce is those bitterly complaining about the state of the country but who look the other way when it comes to [insert preferred decent fellow who sorted me out here]

M three · 01-08-2012 12:12am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Quinn has long been a subject of controversy in the North, in the earlier days of his quarrying business he was investigated by the British government for being involved in alleged inflated grant claims for production machinery under the roads improvement schemes of the day.

Have you any link or any semblance of actual proof for this??

BostonB · 01-08-2012 12:56am

Not really seeing how any of this is taking the business view...

sandin wrote: »

...Whereas Sean Quinn continued at that time to
expand his businesses and continued to create jobs...

You could argue that the banks and developers did the same thing. But you hold either side to different standards.

sandin wrote: »

... I don't believe that Sean Quinn is a brilliant businessman....

By what criteria is someone a "brilliant businessman". If being one of the richest and successful, business people in the world, doesn't rate that title?

M three · 01-08-2012 2:18am

Good to see this subject in business as opposed to after hours where the commentary is more along the lines of "yiz tuk our jawbs"
In AH on a related thread one poster pretty much accused quinn of stealing 1.5 billion of him!

Its clear that there is a massive battle going on between both sides in this case. And the anglo side are throwing a lot of resources at it. Interesting to compare the coverage quinn receives in the media to that of sean fitzpatrick.

Irish independent front page headline when fitzpatrick was arrested and brought to court read "seanie in the dock"
Do they add an ie to the end of his first name to make him more endearing or something? A la bertie?
In that fitzpatrick story we are also told how his wife had to sit beside a junkie who was in court the same day. We're told that this junkie kept coughing and spluttering into a tissue while poor mrs fitzpatrick had to sit beside him. A not so subliminal attempt by the irish independent to illicit sympathy for the fitzpatrick family.

On the other hand you have the quinn case. Sean junior is photographed probably by another inmate using a camera phone playing poker during his time in mountjoy. No mention of the fact that having a phone in jail is illegal. Could the reporter or newspaper in question have paid for a camera to be smuggled in? They probably paid for the juicy picture. All with the intention of showing sean junior as a gambler.
the sunday world publishes a photo of sean juniors wife going in to visit her husband. shes wearing a straightforward outfit but the SW asks "does she thinks she's off to a catwalk?" Has any newspaper ever given fitzpatricks wife the same over the top treatment? Doubtful.

A long time back in all of this you had the anglo side in court admitting that they monitored the gaa site hoganstand for news of what quinn was up to. When you see some of the anti quinn stuff thats posted online you wonder if monitoring forums is all they're doing.

Overall its very convenient for the powers that be that all the media focus for some time and for the foreseeable future will be on the quinn case. People are getting very animated about the case and unfortunately forgetting the fact that the government has sunk 63 billion into private irish banks. And turned private banks losses into national, sovereign debt which we conveniently pay for.

Whatever the outcome of the quinn case, it pales compared to the bank scam. But there is way more media coverage of the quinn case. Proof if ever there was needed that the media are complicit in the whole bloody mess.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 8:44am

PapaDragon wrote: »

With all due respect I disagree with this statement entirely. You do not get to be one of the richest billionaires in the world purely by cutting prices. He did have something special.

Now what I always had was this opinion of sean quinn betting a fiver every friday night playing cards along with employing half of cavan. He did build up this image of a very simple man that just worked for a few bob.

Then, suddenly we learn of all this property, shopping centres and businesses around the globe. This completely went against the fostered image of sean quinn that he had carefully developed over the years. So what ? But this has people thinking he was greedy !

Now, he did take out loans, big loans from anglo to invest in Anglo for Cfd's, which is the equivalent of betting on two dogs to run straight down a road. I believe he should pay back all these loans. I also think he was wrong to borrow from the companies to fund the Anglo Investment. But I do not believe he is responsible for the bust of Anglo.The man has made mistakes which I am sure he freely admits.

Sean fitzpatrick, brian cowen, the government and the rest all had an agenda back then. But now someone has to take a fall. This is going to be sean quinn. The maple ten were heavily involved. Are they paying back their loans ? We see no mention of these people. Insurance levies ? listen, they were coming anyway with or without sean quinn's help.

Will sean Fitzpatrick go to jail ? Probably not as he knows too much and he will bring alot of people down with him if he does.

Then, on the other side, you have a woman travelling to london to get a developer's bankruptcy overturned so this developer can be declared bankrupt in Ireland ? Why is this government not going after the greedy developers that have made so many people homeless in ireland. Instead there too busy travelling the world chasing down a man that employed 7,500 people.

What a mess. Burn the bondholders yeah right. More like, lets hand over media dominance to one man that secured his wealth by dubious methods indeed.

What a farce.

You are quite right, a child would never have got away with it. It is the notion that one could build an empire by predatory pricing and always being the cheapest that is childish or probably more accurately uneducated or to put it more pejoratively, ignorant.

Slightly off topic but it would be interesting to examine the educational background, school leaving age etc of the top 500 debt defaulters over the past 5 years in Ireland. Anecdotally, it would seem to me that early school leavers and those without any formal business or third level education are disproportionately represented. Perhaps some Economic Anthropologist will take up the task, we might learn something that could serve us well in the future.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 8:47am

By what criteria is someone a "brilliant businessman". If being one of the richest and successful, business people in the world, doesn't rate that title?[/QUOTE]

The wider Quinn empire was a ball of smoke and now that the REAL financial position is being exposed, his expertise as a businessman is being unmasked. It is fair to say that he was exceptionally talented at creating confidence in Sean Quinn with lenders of all every ilk including the E 1.3 Billion he got from bondholders. Add in the non CFD Anglo borrowings ( a mere E 500 million odd), the trading losses of the non Insurance elements of the group plus the now astonishing potential E 1.6 Billion hole in underwriting losses. His further gambling losses of over E 2.4 Billion on Anglo are some testament to his business nous and ability. Top that off by giving a bunch of shady eastern Europeans all your nest eggs to hide from the big bad troll and now they wont give them back. If you define Bernie Madoff, Asil Nadir, Kenneth Lay, Sir Allen Staford and Bernie Ebbers who all made vast fortunes and amassed huge wealth as great businessmen, then Sean Quinn deserves his place alongside them in that Hall of Fame. Most of them went to prison and are now broke.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 8:51am

M three wrote: »

Have you any link or any semblance of actual proof for this??

That investigation predated the internet by many years. I do however have some direct knowledge of the matter. Just because something is not in the wider public domain does not make it untrue.

Eh, where does the M3 go?

smeharg · 01-08-2012 8:52am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

You are quite right, a child would never have got away with it. It is the notion that one could build an empire by predatory pricing and always being the cheapest that is childish or probably more accurately uneducated or to put it more pejoratively, ignorant.

Ryanair, Lidl, ALdi?

smeharg · 01-08-2012 9:10am

micosoft wrote: »

...
the facts show in this case he engaged in a systematic scheme to defraud the Irish Taxpayer of money that rightly belonged to the Irish People.

micosoft wrote: »

...
This was a deliberate fraud on anyone that insured their home or car with Quinn Insurance. And every single one of us will pay for this with the 2% levy on Insurance policies for the next 10 years.

micosoft wrote: »

...

Essentially any illegal activities that Sean Fitzpatrick allegedly may have committed (transfer of 70m loans to avoid audit) pale into insignificance to the sheer illegality of what Quinn allegedly committed before during and after (the after is what he is in trouble for now).

Let's stick to the facts please.

Sean Quinn has not been subject to any criminal investigation let alone criminal charges being brough against him.

The investigation into Sean Fitzpatrick is lot more serious than you seem to comprehend. It is alleged that he falsified the financial statements of a public company. The consequences of that are potentially far more reaching than what you are accusing Sean Quinn of.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 9:12am

smeharg wrote: »

Ryanair, Lidl, ALdi?

Exactly, well run by talented educated businessmen focussed in the markets they know.

JD Dublin · 01-08-2012 9:13am

AS I sse it, Sean Quinn was a good businessman, although as you can see from other's assertions on here, he cut corners sometimes.

He gambled on making billions on Anglo's share price. He lost. Now he's fighting to keep some money.

I think to infer he has some sort of morals in this is to miss the point. The point is, he is motivated by money, the bank want to take most of his. He is going to fight that.

There is no question of right or wrong in Sean Quinn's mind. He is right and everyone else is wrong, end of story. That way he keeps his sanity, and justifies keeping some of his money.

However he is breaking the law, according to the High Court, and will end up in jail with his son.

For most Irish people up to this i.e before all the Anglo shennigans, they say 'fair play, the man made something for himself'. Now in 2012 the vast majority of people see him as a criminal IMHO, nothing more nothing less. He gambled, he lost. Now he has to pay. There's a Kenny Rogers song in there somewhere.

If you need to know anything more about this mess, then imagine what would have happenned if Sean Quinn had won this particular gamble. He'd now be 1 or 2 billion richer. Would we as the taxpayers be sharing that big win with Sean Quinn? ''Would we f^&k'' in the words of Jim Gogarty who started the ball rolling in the Flood Tribunal into planning matters in North County Dublin.

Pawwed Rig · 01-08-2012 9:13am

JD Dublin wrote: »

AS I sse it, Sean Quinn was a good businessman, although as you can see from other's assertions on here, he cut corners sometimes.

There was a guy on Newstalk this morning who said that Anglo had nothing to do with Quinn Insurance going down the tube.
He pretty much said anyone who thinks Sean Quinn was a good businessman needs to think again. Quinn insurance was, he said, poorly managed, did not have adequate reserves, poor underwriting and were selling the products too cheaply. He said the company would have collapsed this year even without Anglo.

sandin · 01-08-2012 9:20am

micosoft wrote: »

So you believe that a massive conspiracy exists consisting of the banking sector, our Judiciary, and legal system? To suggest that's far fetched would be an understatement. Is it possible that the reason that Sean is in so much trouble is because the facts show in this case he engaged in a systematic scheme to defraud the Irish Taxpayer of money that rightly belonged to the Irish People.

The only thing being undercovered is the reckless nature of Sean Quinn. Only this evening have we discovered the actual hole in Quinn Insurance is now €1.6 Billion. This was a deliberate fraud on anyone that insured their home or car with Quinn Insurance. And every single one of us will pay for this with the 2% levy on Insurance policies for the next 10 years.

What are you trying to say here? This was entirely in character for Quinn. What does "spread his vision" even mean in English. The man took punts in many markets. In many cases it worked out. But like any gambler you get found out in the end. The evidence is increasingly showing that for a very long period of time (from the mid nineties) that Quinn Insurance was being used as a piggy bank. There is real form here.

This is the heart of the lie. Neither Anglo or Fitzpatrick knew that Quinn has built up this massive shareholding in Anglo. The evidence for this is that Quinn used contracts for difference to build his stake. Neither Fitzpatrick (or Drumm the CEO) had any idea of what was happening and they DID NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

Furthermore Sean Quinn built up MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE contracts for difference (CFD's) in Anglo Irish Bank using money he did not have. He then used other peoples money (Insurance reserves) to try to make this good.

Essentially any illegal activities that Sean Fitzpatrick allegedly may have committed (transfer of 70m loans to avoid audit) pale into insignificance to the sheer illegality of what Quinn allegedly committed before during and after (the after is what he is in trouble for now).

As an aside, reprehensible as Fitzpatrick was, this attempt to turn him into a bogeyman that singlehandedly drove Ireland into it's current state is as reprehensible as the "stab in the back" theory the Germans had. Simplistic nonsense used to support populist lies as espoused at the Cavan Rally and to avoid this nation looking critically at itself to understand why we failed so badly as a nation.

You seriously expect us to believe that Sean Quinn based an investment of billions based on high risk CFD's on a late late show? Seriously? Do you listen to your own words? Fitzpatrick had nothing to do with the build up of his stake in Anglo. As soon as they discover what Quinn was doing they tried to unwind it (in a separate case which Fitzpatrick is being brought to book for). Quinn made the Anglo Disaster and even bigger disaster.

Yes - he created some jobs. And in a part of the country where jobs were hard to come by. That's great but simply does not in any way mitigate the great wrongs he has committed with other peoples money.

I'm sorry for you too. He has freely and openly admitted to putting assets beyond the reach of the Irish People who own and run IRBC. He has admitted to this. There is no name to "clear" as even he accepts this. If you can't even grasp what your hero says what hope that you can make a judgement about the situation.

Your rambling interpretation of a Late Late Show you mean?

You want to know what I think? I think that it is people like you who are the heart and core of the problems we have in Ireland now. Despite stealing your money from your insurance premium to support his position you still support Quinn based on some "ah sure he created jobs in the border counties" line.

It's not the corrupt TD, the neighbour with the broken septic tank, the banker who lent too much money, the small business man who dumps rubbish in nature reserves, etc who are to blame for where we are. It's not even Fitzpatrick........

It's the "ordinary" Oirish voter who looks the other way because "ahh sure he sorts the roads/supports local businesses/creates jobs so we shouldn't question them". It's because the Irish Voter has proven time and again to let them away with it. With Democracy come consequences and we reaping the whirlwind of our desire to look the other way on the off chance we'll get something out of it.

Christ!!! :eek::eek::eek: Wow!!

btw - if you actually read my post properly, I'm just asking questions and making suggestions based on what is being sad in the newspapers and wanted to see what others in business are claiming.

Your diatribe (that is what it is) is uncalled for in this forum.

The facts are not known. Some facts are, buts there seems to be a lot that has not come out yet.

The 1.6bn hole is a max based on worst case scenario and is likely to be about €1bn - still a lot, but when you look at the quinn model, he goes into a market cheap and then gradually raises the rates so that overall it becomes profitable after 3/4 years (ryanair model). As the receivers pulled out of the UK without allowing for benefit of multi year policy increases and risk spreading, the losses have in exacberated.

You say that neither Fitzpatrick nor Dumm knew what Sean Quinn was doing - sorry, but Fitzpatrick and Drumm are the last 2 people on earth I would believe. Fitzpatrick went on to national TV and blatantly told 1million people that his bank was doing brilliantly - his deposits were up and the share price was recovering. EVERY SINGLE WORD WAS A BLATANT BARE FACED and CALCULATED LIE! - That is proven. So sorry, I will never believe a word of Sean Fitzpatrick or his inner circle.

Then you say I am to blame? eh - what planet are you on? - With that one stupid ridiculous statement, you lose any debate.

As I said (read my posts), keeping assets away from receivers is wrong (I state that), yes running from justice is wrong (I state that), but my overall impression is a lot of the media is one sided on this and it looks like you've swallowed the media line in its entirety without lookig to see if there is a balance. I just think that there is something fishy about the whole business and why such a diversified company / visionary leader suddenly gambles everythign on a single horse. Very possibly it was a change from the old guard (Sean snr) to the new guard (sons, daughthers & nephews), or possibly he was hoodwinked by Anglo.

No-where have I staed in anyway that Sean Quinn is right or that he is doing the right thing - in fcat quite the opposite. What I'd love to know, even from a learning perspective is why such a change from a profitable diversified business model to a one horse gamble?

JD Dublin · 01-08-2012 9:23am

smeharg wrote: »

Let's stick to the facts please.

Sean Quinn has not been subject to any criminal investigation let alone criminal charges being brough against him.

The investigation into Sean Fitzpatrick is lot more serious than you seem to comprehend. It is alleged that he falsified the financial statements of a public company. The consequences of that are potentially far more reaching than what you are accusing Sean Quinn of.

Sean Quinn has not been subjected to any criminal charges, no. but then i'd say that it will take years for this to be ironed out, so he may still end up in court.

Now look, Sean Fitzpatrick is alleged to have falsified the accounts of Anglo. True. But all of the facts have not emerged from the Quinn Insurance debacle, so let take a calmer view here.

It appears to be common knowledge that the proper reserves were not kept. That is an offence under various laws.

No charges have been made in relation to the reserves in Quinn Insurance, but I think it's almost certain that when the receivers have done their work, there will indeed be charges against those responsible at the top of Quinn Insurance.

Do you accept that latter point - that there appears to have been wrongdoing in Quinn Insurance in relation to the reserves?

smeharg · 01-08-2012 9:27am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

You are quite right, a child would never have got away with it. It is the notion that one could build an empire by predatory pricing and always being the cheapest that is childish or probably more accurately uneducated or to put it more pejoratively, ignorant.

smeharg wrote: »

Ryanair, Lidl, ALdi?

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Exactly, well run by talented educated businessmen focussed in the markets they know.

So it's okay to follow that kind of business model if you are (formally) educated?

Is there any particular level to which one should be educated or this dependent on how much less you charge than your competitors?

sandin · 01-08-2012 9:28am

smeharg wrote: »

Ryanair, Lidl, ALdi?

Ryanair are not cheap - but they give the impression they are cheap. They had first mover advantage and got rid of unneccessary costs and this helped them build their cash reserves and they could use predatory pricing on selective routes to kill competition.

Lidl / Aldi are good value and like ryanair, strip a lot of unneccessary expense out of grocery shopping (choice, brands, large stores, loyalty cards, staff etc).

Quinn did this too and it seems to have worked in most markets. The UK insurance market was the next thing, but obviously other events took over.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 9:38am

smeharg wrote: »

So it's okay to follow that kind of business model if you are (formally) educated?

Is there any particular level to which one should be educated or this dependent on how much less you charge than your competitors?

At least enough to know what you are doing and what you should be doing. The same applies to airline pilots, bus drivers and even bankers etc.. not exactly rocket science, just plain old common sense!

BostonB · 01-08-2012 9:44am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

.... Slightly off topic but it would be interesting to examine the educational background, school leaving age etc of the top 500 debt defaulters over the past 5 years in Ireland. Anecdotally, it would seem to me that early school leavers and those without any formal business or third level education are disproportionately represented.....

I think you'll find that a lot of successful self made people, especially with their own business, have little business or third level education. So you're trying to make an argument with a half story.

Not necessarily. The vast majority of the 234 U.S. billionaires whose education level is tracked by Forbes magazine through 1999 finished college; 100 have some form of advanced degree, but 41--that's 18%--never got their college diplomas and two never even finished high school

This is still true even in the age of Internet moguls. For every Jerry Yang, who dropped out of a Ph.D. program at Stanford University and now has net worth of $5.7 billion, there is a Larry Ellison, who dropped out of the University of Illinois and is now worth $47 billion. In fact, the average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is more than double that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if you factor out the world's richest man, Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $60 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, as compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. And what is true for billionaires holds equally for the garden-variety rich: According to a recent report from Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Reaseach, a full 20% of America's millionaires never even set foot in college.

http://www.forbes.com/2000/06/29/feat.html

BostonB · 01-08-2012 9:47am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

At least enough to know what you are doing and what you should be doing. The same applies to airline pilots, bus drivers and even bankers etc.. not exactly rocket science, just plain old common sense!

Nice theory but the world doesn't work like that. See my post above.

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 9:50am

BostonB wrote: »

I think you'll find that a lot of successful self made people, especially with their own business, have little business or third level education. So you're trying to make an argument with a half story.

http://www.forbes.com/2000/06/29/feat.html

#

You are absolutely right, silly me. We do need the data for the rest of the drop-outs and see how they are doing and how they rate by number and wealth versus the drop-out millionaires. I suspect they may be slightly more than half the story.

dod78 · 01-08-2012 9:58am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Eh, where does the M3 go?

What's this got to do with it?? the M3 motorway stops in Kells Co Meath

Peterdalkey · 01-08-2012 10:02am

dod78 wrote: »

What's this got to do with it?? the M3 motorway stops in Kells Co Meath

a dead end then!

smeharg · 01-08-2012 10:27am

sandin wrote: »

Ryanair are not cheap - but they give the impression they are cheap. They had first mover advantage and got rid of unneccessary costs and this helped them build their cash reserves and they could use predatory pricing on selective routes to kill competition.

Lidl / Aldi are good value and like ryanair, strip a lot of unneccessary expense out of grocery shopping (choice, brands, large stores, loyalty cards, staff etc).

Quinn did this too and it seems to have worked in most markets. The UK insurance market was the next thing, but obviously other events took over.

Good point.

I never found Quinn Direct to be cheapest, come to think of it. I have got better car insurance prices form different companies, and the PI insurance quote I got from Quinn was off-the-wall.

Predatory pricing is not the same as being the cheapest. Predatory pricing implies deliberate below cost positioning, for the short-term, to gain market share. It's only sustainable so long as there's cash reserves to cover it. Being cheapest is only sustainable if your costs are also low (eg Lidl, Aldi).

It's been implied in this thread that Sean Quinn was able to sustain a predatory pricing model for 40 years funded by excessive borrowing, which is complete nonsense.

M three · 01-08-2012 11:29am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

That investigation predated the internet by many years. I do however have some direct knowledge of the matter. Just because something is not in the wider public domain does not make it untrue.

Eh, where does the M3 go?

Well because you have nothing to back up your sweeping statements it is more than reasonable to assume you are making stuff up.

And what has the M3 motorway got to do with anything?

BostonB · 01-08-2012 11:43am

dod78 wrote: »

What's this got to do with it?? the M3 motorway stops in Kells Co Meath

The M3 serves a lot of people in Meath which is the busiest section. I suspect those with a gripe about with it stopping in Kells and not being funded to Cavan would be those with a local Cavan interest. Some might suggest SQ actions aren't going to help get it funded any sooner.

sandin · 01-08-2012 2:28pm

just remember the deficiencies in the insurance company was after Quinn got involved with the gamble on Anglo.

Prior to this, he was running numerous very successful companies, employing thousands of people and getting rid of cartels in various industries. He had diversified into the UK and europe and whilst Ireland still was a very important market, the destruction of the market in Ireland would not have brought down the company due to his diversification.

The question remains unanswered - what makes an intelligent person who has diversified his business greatly suddenly gamble on one horse?

And so far no-one (not even myself:D) can answer this and this is the part that bugs me!

BostonB · 01-08-2012 2:38pm

People who take risks and succeed against the odds, often outreach themselves.

I read I think in Joe Simpson books about mountain climbing something along the lines that people stubborn and determined enough and with drive enough, to get to the top of mountains, achieve this by ignoring advice about what they can't do. Unfortunately there comes a point when this characteristic means they don't stop when they should and pay the price.

You could say it was simply greed. I suspect its probably more complicated than that.

Bobbyknock · 01-08-2012 4:23pm

sandin wrote: »

just remember the deficiencies in the insurance company was after Quinn got involved with the gamble on Anglo.

Prior to this, he was running numerous very successful companies, employing thousands of people and getting rid of cartels in various industries. He had diversified into the UK and europe and whilst Ireland still was a very important market, the destruction of the market in Ireland would not have brought down the company due to his diversification.

The question remains unanswered - what makes an intelligent person who has diversified his business greatly suddenly gamble on one horse?

And so far no-one (not even myself:D) can answer this and this is the part that bugs me!

The deficiencies in the insurance business certainly occurred during his ownership.
Why do you think the company was put into administration by the regulators?
As a result of Sean stripping the insurance business of much of its reserves (using the assets for his own personal use) and the downturn in the profitability of the business (common cycle for an insurance company - purpose of them being required to hold such large reserves), the company did not have sufficient assets to meet its liabilities.
There was no other option for the regulators.
Sean's decision to enter into the UK marketplace ("diversification") was a major factor in Quinn Insurance being placed into administration. The losses incurred as a result of its' expansion into the UK were huge.

I do not think you properly understand why Quinn Insurance was put into administration?

To answer your question, why he gambled so much on one horse?
Read his comments to the papers. There is no sinister plot at play here. He just made a massive school boy error.
He bought into the Anglo story and believed it was set to continue.

As it was a CFD trade he would only have had to place the margin initally (10% of the trade value). At the beginning this may only have been less than €100 million (out of an estimated €5billion wealth)but as his stake size increased and the losses on the trade mounted, the margin calls to the brokers would have been massive. He would have to cover 100% of the trade losses and would have been under severe pressure to pay these immediately with the large London investment banks he transacted with.

Once he placed the bet and it began to turn sour it was impossible for him to close down the CFD contracts. I am sure Quinn wanted to do this when he knew who was betting against him but to try and sell a 30% or even 15% stake in Anglo at the time would have been nigh on impossible (this is why Anglo had to intervene with the placement to the Maple 10 with provision of non-recourse finance).

Anglo had backed Sean throughout the years on his various expansive adventures and he obviously believed in this strategy by the Bank. Sean demonstrated he had an appetite for debt and had no problem amassing vast volumes of it. Remember that close to €200 million in debt still remained in Quinn Group after it was taken over by the Bank dating back to his dot com bets fiasco in the 90s.
His stock betting was not a one off and he had suffered huge losses previously.

To suggest he was "hoodwinked" into taking his Anglo position is ridiculous. He is a "controller" and his family in court freely admit this. He has no formal experience in market trading and clearly did not employ or listen to anyone who did. He made all the decisions as he thought he knew best.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with this but this is clearly the way he operated.

He demonstrated greed (like most Irish people at the time including myself) and decided he wanted to try and profit more from a bank he believed would continue to grow.

He betted with money he clearly did not have and when the bet started turning sour he doubled down (raised his stake from 15% to 30%). This is a standard play from a bad amateur gambler.

He obviously did not understand the markets and who he was playing against.
He did not understand Anglo and its overexposure to the Irish property market. There was a rising current of opinion from 2006 onwards that Anglo was heading for a pop if the property market stagnated. Plenty of Irish investors were concerned of this overheating but obviously nobody thought it could blow out as big as it did.

It is easy commentating with hindsight but Anglo did have the reputation of being the cowboy of the Irish banking market at this time and the most risky if things turned bad. Hedge funds had a field day in London when they knew Quinn was in the position he was with margin calls he was being forced to cover. They knew he didnt have the cash to cover the bet and profited off his predicament. This was part of the reason Anglo bailed him out. They believed these hedge funds were solely to blame for the stock price tanking. They refused to accept that Anglo was massively insolvent at this point.

Anglo should never have lent Quinn the cash he needed for his initial margin calls on the CFDs. It was a clear conflict of interest. Up to this point besides bad banking practices, Anglo had not really done anything wrong.
I think it should be noted that Quinn did saved himself €500million from the Anglo placement of his 15% of shares he could not fund to purchase.

It is hard to fathom how such a wealthy father had not provided for his family long before he did. From reading the papers it would appear that his kids do not own their own homes. They have significant mortgages to pay.
This must surely ilk him.

The fact he betted with cash he did not have and then used company money to try and prop up his gamble partly explains how he saw no wrong in placing Anglo assets out of their reach for his family's good.
He obviously has become delusional of what is right and wrong. He is too emotionally involved to make correct decisions.
Given his fall from grace this is understandable.

I do not think anyone would like to be in his shoes right now. To see his family loose everything, be sent to prison and be lambasted in the papers every day must be horrendous.

At the same time though his bets will have to be repaid by the Irish state and to clear them it means every citizen in Ireland (adult and child) forking up about €1,000 each. This is not inclusive of the levy on all insurance policies that we will incur in perpetuity.

Sean Quinn - whats the business view

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