Favourite referee

Swiwi

I'll start this thread rolling. My all-time favourite referee would be Clive Norling, Welsh from memory. Was reffing around the time I started watching rugby in the late 80s, and he always let the game flow. Paddy was great, but somewhat tarnished by France-Fiji RWC match, and of course as IRB refs manager has got his fair amount of criticism, especially from SA. But he was a great ref, especially for local NZ derbies.

Currently, I am starting to like Steve Walsh more & more, he seems to have toned down his schoolmaster style, but I will hold judgement until after this weekends's S15 final.

Least favourite of all time would be Derek Bevan and Stu Dickinson, absolutely no feel whatsoever for the game or the long-suffering TV viewer.

Morf

Steve Walsh? Didn't you see the debacle at the end of the Crusaders v Chiefs match where he pretty much gave up refereeing the last 5 or 6 minutes of the game until the Crusaders turned it over? 2 penalties where there should most definitely have been cards and possibly a penalty try for such blatant illegal play on their own line. It did get worse and worse because Walsh was obviously not going to punish it.

The last couple of games he hasn't been enjoying the sound of his voice as much but I wouldn't say it's a thing of the past yet.

It might have been his death as a high level referee but I admire Lewis for yellow-carding McCaw as NZ captain. We might not ever see the like again.

Teferi

Wayne Barnes.

Quint2010

Balancing everything up I quite like Owens. OK he made a marginal call against us in the second test but in the main his games seems to be fast flowing and entertaining

Flincher

Nigel Owens probably has the best feel for the game of the refs there at the moment. Lewis was excellent for the most part, but prone to the odd howler. I also quite like Mark Lawrence as a ref. He is very clear in what he is doing. He rode Samoa in Dublin in 2010 and got bumped down the IRB list, but I think he's decent.

To be honest, at every level of sport (don't worry that doesn't extend to any sort of decent level) even from 6-a-side soccer leagues to rugby, the refs I admired the most would have been the refs who went out and just called the game, no fuss, no bull****. At every level you get refs who want to be the centre of attention (James Jones) or refs who want to be everyone's best friend (Walsh). They drive me mad. Just as long as the ref wasn't completely incompetent, I could get over the odd wrong call, God knows I made enough mistakes myself.

Samich

George Clancy

Swiwi

Quint2010 wrote: »

Balancing everything up I quite like Owens. OK he made a marginal call against us in the second test but in the main his games seems to be fast flowing and entertaining

Yeah, I like Owens too. You always get the impression he is trying his best, and trying to make the game about rugby not himself. Form can waver a bit, but in the top 5 without a doubt.

Swiwi

Samich wrote: »

George Clancy

Probably my favourite Irish ref. Had completely forgotten Lewis giving McCaw a yellow card, but thought he was mediocre. Used to like Rolland, but he has become pedantic - yes, technically it was a red card, but no-one would have complained if he had given Warburton a yellow, instead of ruining a RWC semi. And I'm sure most of ye Irish would have preferred a Wales v NZ final.

leftleg

By default none of them; The flavour changes so much; before RWC 2011 final i liked Joubert but then he turned into a total homer;

I liked Nigel Owens but hes been awful shoddy as well before; I have to say that Joubert refereed the Chiefs v Saders game really well in that he didnt give a card and managed to put a lid on the boiling tempers before something bad happened.

I used to like Rolland but he can be a bit up his own arse a bit imo. Clancy has been really good at times as well. Its the nature of their job imo; You just end up hating them no matter what they do!

Swiwi

Teferi wrote: »

Wayne Barnes.

Ah, classic one-liner from the pantheon of Irish stand-up comedy greats. Won't get a bite from me. If I've misread your comment, please elaborate why you think Barnes is the best. For me, he just freezes in big matches (and I'm excluding Cardiff '07 from this analysis).

tolosenc

Swiwi wrote: »

Used to like Rolland, but he has become pedantic - yes, technically it was a red card, but no-one would have complained if he had given Warburton a yellow, instead of ruining a RWC semi.

I still think Rolland is up there.

As for "ruining a RWC semi" - he didn't. If Warburton had stamped on Parra's face in the 1st minute, would a red card have ruined the semi? The rules and associated sanctions are the same whether it's a Saturday afternoon in you local club, or the World Cup semi final. The magnitude of the game should have no bearing on how it is officiated.

PhatPiggins

+ 1 on Wayne Barnes especially after I gave him €100 to fix the game against NZ in 2007. I mean he'd totally risk his career for that wouldn't he !!

On the domestic fronts I think JP Doyle and something Rose in the AP are decent. The Pro12 goes from the sublime with Clancy,Rolland and Owens to the ridiculous with James Jones and any Scottish or Italian ref. I used to like Poite in the HC but he's become overly simplistic at scrum time

Swiwi

tolosenc wrote: »

I still think Rolland is up there.

As for "ruining a RWC semi" - he didn't. If Warburton had stamped on Parra's face in the 1st minute, would a red card have ruined the semi? The rules and associated sanctions are the same whether it's a Saturday afternoon in you local club, or the World Cup semi final. The magnitude of the game should have no bearing on how it is officiated.

Indeed, but it ruined the game nevertheless. Even the above mentioned Lewis said on RTE he would have given a yellow. I like the white card system in place in this year's S15. Most tip tackles have got a yellow & white card (on report). Player gets 10 minutes, match is not ruined, and after the game he inevitably gets a 1 to 4 week ban. I have no problem with cynical foul play getting a red card, and certainly eye-gouging, head butting, kicking, striking a referee etc, but a doubt that was a deliberate tip-tackle by Warburton.

PhatPiggins

Swiwi wrote: »

Indeed, but it ruined the game nevertheless. Even the above mentioned Lewis said on RTE he would have given a yellow. I like the white card system in place in this year's S15. Most tip tackles have got a yellow & white card (on report). Player gets 10 minutes, match is not ruined, and after the game he inevitably gets a 1 to 4 week ban. I have no problem with cynical foul play getting a red card, and certainly eye-gouging, head butting, kicking, striking a referee etc, but a doubt that was a deliberate tip-tackle by Warburton.

All ref's were instructed to issue a red for a tip tackle prior to the WC. Rolland can hardly be blamed for applying the laws.

thomond2006

Yamanoto

thomond2006 wrote: »

Worse Scottish officials than he, frighteningly enough.

Who was the ref who penalised Connacht in the 79th minute a few seasons ago for shifting the ball from player to player, prior to a 22 drop out? I still remember Jiffy's commentary 'That man has no feel for the game whatsoever'.

backawaygo onahead

Swiwi wrote: »

Probably my favourite Irish ref. Had completely forgotten Lewis giving McCaw a yellow card, but thought he was mediocre. Used to like Rolland, but he has become pedantic - yes, technically it was a red card, but no-one would have complained if he had given Warburton a yellow, instead of ruining a RWC semi. And I'm sure most of ye Irish would have preferred a Wales v NZ final.

Sorry, I don't care much as I'm not a fan of Rolland but this line about "nobody would have cared if he had given a yellow" is dangerous nonsense.

It was a dangerous tackle which could have done a lot of damage but fortunately didn't. To criticise a ref for having the integrity to apply the laws as he has been instructed is not bright.

To have called that a yellow would have put it on a par with Stevie Ferris's heinous tackle which gave Wales the victory in Dublin - ludicrous.

As for refs I like, I believe Nigel Owens is one of the best and wants the rugby to be the winner, I like Craig Joubert though not in the RWC final. Liked Alan Lewis too. Quite liked Chris White, Fleming was the last Scot to be anything close to decent.

There are many incompetants such as Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Barnes, Walsh who's greatest sin is his self-adoration. Scottish refs if I'm not mistaken got a mention in the bible as an abomination & I could cheerfully have choked the last breath from the "Chattering Yokel" aka Spreaders.

Two of my physics teachers were International refs, Ronnie Gilliland & Stephen Hilditch - both decent refs and excellent teachers, it was my favourite subject.

My all time favourite ref was Australian Kerry Fitzgerald - reckon he had a bit of "Oirish" in him, he reffed us 7 or 8 times and we never lost to teh best of my recollection, sadly Kerry died young.

Paddysnapper

Nigel Owens.. I will never forget a gorgeous moment ( don't ask what the match was) when he forgot he has being heard by all via the live link, and he said loud and clear to a player ' Are you fu....g stupid or what?':D

Swiwi

PhatPiggins wrote: »

All ref's were instructed to issue a red for a tip tackle prior to the WC. Rolland can hardly be blamed for applying the laws.

Rolland was the only one to read the instructions...from memory several other tip-tackles in the RWC got yellow cards. Look, he followed the laws to the letter, good on him, but it still marred the semi-final.

Flincher

Swiwi wrote: »

Indeed, but it ruined the game nevertheless. Even the above mentioned Lewis said on RTE he would have given a yellow. I like the white card system in place in this year's S15. Most tip tackles have got a yellow & white card (on report). Player gets 10 minutes, match is not ruined, and after the game he inevitably gets a 1 to 4 week ban. I have no problem with cynical foul play getting a red card, and certainly eye-gouging, head butting, kicking, striking a referee etc, but a doubt that was a deliberate tip-tackle by Warburton.

The white card is a cop-out a lot of the time. If a player subsequently gets a ban, well then issuing the white card is completely unfair on the team who should have had a extra man for the remainder of the match.

If Warburton was given a white card and subsequently suspended (and Wales went on to win), a 3 week suspension would be feck-all good to France who should have had the extra man for 60+ mins.

Swiwi

backawaygo onahead wrote: »

Sorry, I don't care much as I'm not a fan of Rolland but this line about "nobody would have cared if he had given a yellow" is dangerous nonsense.

It was a dangerous tackle which could have done a lot of damage but fortunately didn't. To criticise a ref for having the integrity to apply the laws as he has been instructed is not bright.

To have called that a yellow would have put it on a par with Stevie Ferris's heinous tackle which gave Wales the victory in Dublin - ludicrous.

As for refs I like, I believe Nigel Owens is one of the best and wants the rugby to be the winner, I like Craig Joubert though not in the RWC final. Liked Alan Lewis too. Quite liked Chris White, Fleming was the last Scot to be anything close to decent.

There are many incompetants such as Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Barnes, Walsh who's greatest sin is his self-adoration. Scottish refs if I'm not mistaken got a mention in the bible as an abomination & I could cheerfully have choked the last breath from the "Chattering Yokel" aka Spreaders.

Two of my physics teachers were International refs, Ronnie Gilliland & Stephen Hilditch - both decent refs and excellent teachers, it was my favourite subject.

My all time favourite ref was Australian Kerry Fitzgerald - reckon he had a bit of "Oirish" in him, he reffed us 7 or 8 times and we never lost to teh best of my recollection, sadly Kerry died young.

Died, suddenly, of a heart attack if I remember rightly. You're right, he was a good ref. RIP.

Teferi

Swiwi wrote: »

Indeed, but it ruined the game nevertheless. Even the above mentioned Lewis said on RTE he would have given a yellow. I like the white card system in place in this year's S15. Most tip tackles have got a yellow & white card (on report).

All the white card does is allow refs to bottle the big calls as far as I can see. I hope it isn't introduced over here.

He was right in giving the red by the way. The only person who ruined the game was Warburton.

Swiwi

Flincher wrote: »

The white card is a cop-out a lot of the time. If a player subsequently gets a ban, well then issuing the white card is completely unfair on the team who should have had a extra man for the remainder of the match.

If Warburton was given a white card and subsequently suspended (and Wales went on to win), a 3 week suspension would be feck-all good to France who should have had the extra man for 60+ mins.

I agree the red card was technically correct (but I haven't seen one given since for a tip tackle), but aesthetically the "wrong" decision. I just prefer 15 v 15. And I think winning with a 1 man-advantage for 70 minutes is a hollow victory. Either every tip tackle is instant red-card or it's not. At the moment it ranges from occasional red-card, to usually a yellow-card, to occasionally no punishment at all.

backawaygo onahead

Yamanoto wrote: »

Worse Scottish officials than he, frighteningly enough.

Who was the ref who penalised Connacht in the 79th minute a few seasons ago for shifting the ball from player to player, prior to a 22 drop out? I still remember Jiffy's commentary 'That man has no feel for the game whatsoever'.

It was Rob Dickson, fortunately no longer making up his own rules on rugby pitches. I have never been so proud of a Welsh commentator, beautifully put by Jiffy.

From memory Connacht had come back with 14 men and scored a brilliant try to take the lead until that clown intervened.

Flincher

Swiwi wrote: »

I agree the red card was technically correct (but I haven't seen one given since for a tip tackle), but aesthetically the "wrong" decision. I just prefer 15 v 15. And I think winning with a 1 man-advantage for 70 minutes is a hollow victory. Either every tip tackle is instant red-card or it's not. At the moment it ranges from occasional red-card, to usually a yellow-card, to occasionally no punishment at all.

To be honest, none of that is Rolland's problem. He saw red card offence, and issued the red. I don't see what other option he had. It is not his problem other ref's aren't doing their job.

I was fairly pissed off when Munster didn't have the extra man in the HEC Quarter final. I'd take a hollow victory over being denied a justified man-advantage any day of the week.

backawaygo onahead

Swiwi wrote: »

I agree the red card was technically correct (but I haven't seen one given since for a tip tackle), but aesthetically the "wrong" decision. I just prefer 15 v 15. And I think winning with a 1 man-advantage for 70 minutes is a hollow victory. Either every tip tackle is instant red-card or it's not. At the moment it ranges from occasional red-card, to usually a yellow-card, to occasionally no punishment at all.

Everyone ideally wants 15 v 15 but its the players fault cards are issued, rarely refs. I readily admit that at the time I thought damn, thats the match wrecked but at no time did I think Rolland was wrong. As it turned out Wales should have won anyway but didn't quite have the moxy.

Now, "Either every tip tackle is instant red-card or it's not" why would you say this? Its clearly wrong, the world isn't black and white, at least 50 shades of grey according to my missus.

shuffol

Who was the ref for the Cardiff-Leinster game in the pro 12 last season, most one sided officiating I can remember. Think it was James Jones.

Heroditas

I think John Lacey is an excellent referee and has a big future in officialdom.
I've been very impressed with some of his refereeing - he constantly talks to the players telling them to get back onside etc and will try and let the game flow as much as possible.

.ak

Without getting into 'that red card', I find Rolland is my favorite ref. I came to the conclusion by asking myself; If I was playing in a big match, what ref would I most like to play with? Rolland sprang to mind because when he's good, he's the best.

He had a fair few poor league matches last season mind you. But nobodies perfect.

Teferi

I think Rolland was the best in the world around 2009 but has fallen down a notch or two since. I like his strength of character though. Rarely hesitant.

Although Nigel Owens seems like a nice chap I don't particularly like him reffing games I have an interest in. He seems to want to be the centre of attention a lot of the time.

Heroditas

Heroditas wrote: »

I think John Lacey is an excellent referee and has a big future in officialdom.
I've been very impressed with some of his refereeing - he constantly talks to the players telling them to get back onside etc and will try and let the game flow as much as possible.

Agreed, I think in a game like rugby communication is a massive aspect of the refereeing, and Lacey is brilliant at explaining what is going on, what he's seen, how he's reacted etc.

A good referee in the making, still has some way to go, but if he can keep on the trend he has been (Isn't he only at it all of 3 years?) he'll make a top ref.

.ak

At first I didn't like Lacey; thought he talked too much! But after watching him closely last season I think he's quite good. Made a few hiccups but he's generally quite good, and one thing I like is his positioning, something a lot of refs get wrong now adays.

daveharnett

Heroditas wrote: »

I think John Lacey is an excellent referee and has a big future in officialdom.

Absolutely. He picked up the whistle for the first time 3/4 seasons ago, and is already one of the best refs in the HC. Should have a couple of six nations games this year.

.ak wrote: »

Without getting into 'that red card', I find Rolland is my favorite ref. I came to the conclusion by asking myself; If I was playing in a big match, what ref would I most like to play with? Rolland sprang to mind because when he's good, he's the best.

Really good standards, makes everything look easy. He can be criticized as a stickler, or lacking a feel for the game - I would say that he judges each incident based on it's own merits, with little regard to what's gone before. It can makes for a bad spectacle when teams don't cooperate, but everybody always knows where they stand.

I see Owens as taking the opposite approach to the job. It's more intuitive, more sympathetic to the context, and can allow the game to flow better. It's more prone to exploitation though - a clever player/team can get away with murder, and he's more prone to losing control of the game.
That said, since Spreadbury's retirement Owens is the best ref around for casual or new rugby spectators. He's absolutely brilliant for explaining his decisions to the mic, and signalling clearly and repeatedly for the stands.

Poite is underrated in this part of the world, because he's completely unequipped to deal with persistent negativity at the breakdown, and his english is rubbish. I recon he's the best scrummaging ref around, and in his element (fast, free flowing T14 games) he's as good as anybody in the world.

Heroditas

daveharnett wrote: »

I recon he's the best scrummaging ref around, and in his element (fast, free flowing T14 games) he's as good as anybody in the world.

Hmmm, not too sure about some of his scrummaging decisions but definitely agree about the free-flowing bit.

[Jackass]

For Irish / Leinster I think Nigel Owens. I think the standard is so poor in Europe, that I actually think he's one of the best, mostly as he always consistent, be it consistently wrong on some calls or rights on others.

Poitte is my least favorite. I think he's a complete joke of a ref. Mainly because he gets important games and is a schizophrenic man who usually has the winner determined before the game starts. I also have a strong dislike for any Scottish ref and Peter Fitzgibbon is an absolute mug also. Hate getting him in Pro12 games.

I think the best refs in Europe are both unfortunately Irish, in Alain Rolland and Alan Lewis (my all time favorite) so we rarely get those refs in games. Think Lewis might be retired by now.

Ciaran-Irl

I can't wait for Glen Jackson to start refereeing at International level. He ref'd the Hurricanes−Western Force in the S15, which is a massive fast track up the ranks as a ref. I really hope that he will be a big success and that more players consider trying their hand at being a ref.

Wouldn't it be brilliant to to see a former front row become a ref at some stage (after shedding a few pounds)? We see so many retirements there at a pretty young age as well.

Heroditas

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Wouldn't it be brilliant to to see a former front row become a ref at some stage (after shedding a few pounds)? We see so many retirements there at a pretty young age as well.

It would be great to see someone like Emmett Byrne ref a few games.

Podge_irl

I still want to see Brian Moore on the international reffing circuit. Crooked feeds would be gone overnight!

bamboozle

Heroditas wrote: »

It would be great to see someone like Emmett Byrne ref a few games.

now Dr. Emmett Byrne...

Shelflife

I think that Rolland 3 years ago was at his best, since then he has become technically better but lost some empathy for the game. i like that hes not afraid to make the big calls and he backs his own judgement.

Owens is another excellent ref but can allow himself to be managed by clever teams as was alluded to earlier. would probably prefer owens to rolland atm.

lacey is another ref that ive alot of time for and should go far.

One of the problems that (professional)refs face is that they are assessed on their technical ability rather then their feel for the game and that is coming from the top down.

Im afraid that the refs must appease their superiors first and let the game flow second, the ref needs to manage the players as much as inforce the laws.

Tox56

Whoever was ref for the Connacht-Leinster game at the Sportsground last year was excellent, great communication with the players.

desertcircus

I'm astonished that there's still any discussion about Warburton's red. Inverting and tipping was named as a red card offence before the tournament. Players who were yellowed for it during the tournament subsequently got red card-scale bans. Rolland knew that his orders were to give a straight red for inverting and tipping; complaining about a ref applying the law as he's been told to makes absolutely no sense. Warburton committed a red card offence. He got a red card. Was Rolland really meant to ignore the specific directive and substitute his own idea of what the rules should be?

Morf

Is it a good or bad thing that refs have stopped penalizing for going off feet and sealing off? It seems to be a free for all now after genuine attempts to support yourself on the tackled player being blown up.

The Irish refs seems to be particularly zealous on it. Clancy in particular in one match I remember.

freyners

Tox56 wrote: »

Whoever was ref for the Connacht-Leinster game at the Sportsground last year was excellent, great communication with the players.

agree. one/two bad calls but thats standard.

especially compared to some of the refs we have had since*finishs opening can of worms* :P

Digifriendly

Nigel Owens followed by Alain Rolland.

phog

For me the few I don't or didn't like to see reffing are Simon McDowell, David Wilkinson, either of the two Changleng brothers, Peter Allan and James Jones, there's also a guy that refs the AIL, a short guy, drives a mini cooper, can't recall his name but he destroys a good game of rugby.

I like or liked, Nigel Owens, Alain Rolland, Chris White, Joel Jutge, Nigel Whitehouse, Alan Lewis, Tony Spreadbury (always got a good luagh from him), Joel Dume, Jonathan Kaplan, Alexander Rose and Craig Joubert.

To be fair to them it's a tough game to ref in real time while the pundits can use so much technology to highlight their mistakes with such ease and sometimes pleasure.

danthefan

I don't really mind any currently active ref other than Fitzgibbon, who is seriously bad. Clancy is decent but if you compare him to Owens for example he doesn't really have a feel for the game.

Bryce Lawrence was the worst of the worst but he'll never ref another international game again.

All the top international refs are decent. Mistakes are obviously made and they always will be.

Dietsquirt

Nigel Owens

Wayne Barnes is a tool

Cardinal Richelieu

Just a slight side question, is there a limit on how many international refs can come from one country?

Podge_irl

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Just a slight side question, is there a limit on how many international refs can come from one country?

I don't think so, bar the practical implications.

Klunk_NZ

Best:
Joubert
Kaplan
Owens


Worst:
Lawrence
Barnes