Irish basketball team

Tiernster7

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

GoldFour4

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

Holy f*ck, you're harsh! An amazing achievement if you ask me.

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Holy f*ck, you're harsh! An amazing achievement if you ask me.

He only played 3 years in the nba, its not fantastic. Its a nice thing to be able to say he was the first Irish player to play in the NBA but as a national side we're never going to make progress if 3 seasons is seen as "amazing".

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

He only played 3 years in the nba, its not fantastic. Its a nice thing to be able to say he was the first Irish player to play in the NBA but as a national side we're never going to make progress if 3 seasons is seen as "amazing".

I would've thought going from having NO players in the NBA to having A player in the NBA was seen as just that - progress!

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I would've thought going from having NO players in the NBA to having A player in the NBA was seen as just that - progress!

He last played in the Nba in 05 though ! It's nearly 8 years later and I think we only have one player in the NCAA

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

He last played in the Nba in 05 though ! It's nearly 8 years later and I think we only have one player in the NCAA

Really, who was it?

How does an Irish player go about 'winding up' in the NCAA?

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Really, who was it?

How does an Irish player go about 'winding up' in the NCAA?

Can't remember off the top of my head but I think he's in Georgia state or tech, something in that region I think.

They'd have scouts for the national finals I'd presume, wouldn't know for certain though. Some underage teams go on tours to the states to play local teams and there would have been underage national teams. Not sure whether they still exist with the cutbacks though !

padraig_f

malachyscott wrote: »

Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns.

I'm reading the book Seven Seconds or Less about the Sun's '05/'06 season and Burke features a bit in it. The Suns coaches liked him, thought he could be a serviceable backup. Got unlucky in his first year there, was getting a deep-tissue massage and they hit a nerve which put him out for a good part of the season. Seemed like he never really cracked the rotation after that.

In the book he doesn't feature much on the court, but had a few off-court contributions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFCCiohVoM

padraig_f

On a similar note, good article today about Luol Deng, and the challenges of making it to the NBA from over here:
From London to London, a basketball world apart

GoldFour4

padraig_f wrote: »

I'm reading the book Seven Seconds or Less about the Sun's '05/'06 season and Burke features a bit in it. The Suns coaches liked him, thought he could be a serviceable backup. Got unlucky in his first year there, was getting a deep-tissue massage and they hit a nerve which put him out for a good part of the season. Seemed like he never really cracked the rotation after that.

In the book he doesn't feature much on the court, but had a few off-court contributions:

]

Very much a fan favourite with the Suns from what I can remember.

stuba

It's crazy to even imagine the quality of players that used to be in the Superleague both as imports and Irish. Could you imagine being up against Mario Elie and then 10 years later he goes on to win a ring!!

RoundBox11

Tiernster7 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

It's an absolute bloody disgrace. As far as i can remember the IBA was 1 million in debt at the time, which isn't a whole lot compare to some of the other irish sports organisations.

I don't understand how they were so in debt anyway. The subscription fees across the board to Dublin clubs is astronomical with a chunk of it going to the IBA. If they had any sense they'd rent out the national basketball arena for events and concerts to raise more money.

What annoys me most is the fact that the irish basketball team could be could be competitive in europe if it was properly funded and organised. The player base in the country is huge (particular in women's basketball).
Most schools nowadays have teams and all the big colleges have numerous teams for experienced and new players. The only difference between it and the soccer set up is that soccer clubs, stadiums etc receive better funding.

If you go into schools in Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Limerick etc. most will have good quality courts and gear. So why are we struggling? It's because the schools, by and large, do not view basketball as a serious sport.


I remember about 8 years ago when Ireland would beat the British team. Now look at the difference.
The talent is there. I know loads of lads who played underage for Ireland and got scholarships in lower division colleges in america. If they along with the incredibly talented Irish players in Irish colleges (UCC, UCD, UL to name a few) were monitered and developed correctly they could be used to build the foundations for a new Mens team which could be used as a launch pad for a competitive team.

Re-starting a mens team would cost the IBA all but nothing. Especially if they aren't going on far flung trips. (The underage teams are sent off on over-elabourate trips so why not the mens team).


Theres no excuse for the current situation imo.

buyer95

Tiernster7 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

RoundBox11

buyer95 wrote: »

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

I forgot about the underage players having to pay for everything. I remember when i was around 18 we had the whole irish trials ordeal but some of the lads who got selected couldn't keep it up because of the costs.

If we were to have an international team again, which was managed by a competent IBA, we could even draw in a few irish qualified americans to boost the team.

buyer95

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

I forgot about the underage players having to pay for everything. I remember when i was around 18 we had the whole irish trials ordeal but some of the lads who got selected couldn't keep it up because of the costs.

If we were to have an international team again, which was managed by a competent IBA, we could even draw in a few irish qualified americans to boost the team.

Jamal Crawford expressed an interest in representing Ireland in the past, and there are other players also who qualify to play for Ireland, and might if we got our act together

buyer95

It's a pity the Irish media don't draw more attention to the awful position were in with regards to the Irish mens team. A bit of bad press would do BI no harm.

When you think about it, the GAA, an amateur organisation, have a International team. We have an arena with no debt hardly ever getting used for big games only once a year really for the club finals. When I think about it too much I just get angry

moneyman

buyer95 wrote: »

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

Without going into much detail this is what prevented me from ever going to trials. I'm very confident I would have made it as well. I get pissed off whenever I think of all the kids that don't get the opportunity for a variety of reasons. Growing up I played against lads who were on underage NTs who I was miles ahead of. I wasn't the only one either. I'm sure there are many other lads out there in the same boat, it's a real shame.

peteb2

buyer95 wrote: »

It's a pity the Irish media don't draw more attention to the awful position were in with regards to the Irish mens team. A bit of bad press would do BI no harm.

How do you figure that? On the basis of any publicity is good publicity? They struggle to get sponsorship at the best of times and you thing some negative press is going to help bring funding in?

buyer95

peteb2 wrote: »

How do you figure that? On the basis of any publicity is good publicity? They struggle to get sponsorship at the best of times and you thing some negative press is going to help bring funding in?

The reason they struggle for funding is the fault of BI. In the 90's basketball was the fastest growing sport in Ireland, UCC Demons v Neptune, and Tralee Tigers and St Paul Killlarney were massive rivalries and crowds flocked to those games in their droves. If BI had kicked on from that position, ie secure TV rights ect we wouldnt be in the position we are in were the association is broke. It isn't due to lack of sponsorship that BI can't field an international senior team, or afford to cover the costs of running a proper underage system, it is due to mismanaged finances. Sponsorship would be a help, but is not the reason BI is in the embarrassing position it is in.

And if the media brought this to the attention of the public, senior figures within the association would quickly find their positions untenable, and would be replaced by new faces, people with new ideas who might drive this great sport forward. something which the current establishment is incapable of doing

peteb2

I didn't say it was. What i said was that negative publicity is not the way to go to resurrecting a mens international team!

What do you know of senior figures in BI? What makes you think they haven't changed? The CEO has changed for one.

Carcharodon

malachyscott wrote: »

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

Ah good old Pat, remember I went to watch him play when the Suns came to play the Warriors, he got a good few minutes as well I think, might of been a blow out.

limerickfc

Im from limerick myself and honestly basketball around here is growing at a very fast level in the younger age groups, what they need now is more televised games from the superleague so theyl see that its not just soccer and rugby that you can get famous off. For the sport to really develop it has to start with the superleague teams advertising their games like mad and at very cheap prices to get people interested. We have fantastic facilities down here in UL but we just need more numbers in terms of fans per games. Whats the structure around europe in terms of basketball, I often watch euroleague and eurocup games on Eurosport.? Can Irish teams get into any of them tournaments?

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

Im from limerick myself and honestly basketball around here is growing at a very fast level in the younger age groups, what they need now is more televised games from the superleague so theyl see that its not just soccer and rugby that you can get famous off. For the sport to really develop it has to start with the superleague teams advertising their games like mad and at very cheap prices to get people interested. We have fantastic facilities down here in UL but we just need more numbers in terms of fans per games. Whats the structure around europe in terms of basketball, I often watch euroleague and eurocup games on Eurosport.? Can Irish teams get into any of them tournaments?

Quite simply - no. The gap in terms of talent between the Irish League and the Euroleague is huge. To use a divisonal analagy, if NBA is Division 1 and Euroleague is Division 2, the Irish League is honestly about Division 8 - the gap is that big. We're further behind in our basketball development compared to Europe than our soccer teams are if tou can believe that. The Euroleague is kinda like the Champions League but the clubs are invited by the Euroleague through a very complicated National Ranking system....you don't qualify per se, but your country does and nominates teams etc. and these teams get licences to compete in the Euroleague for a number of years. There are qualification rounds within the tournament but this is not like Champions League soccer where every country's teams get in. It's basically a closed shop. More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague_Basketball

Some of the players in the Euroleague are on more money than players in the NBA! The CSKA Moscow team in particular have had some astonishingly good players on megabucks over the years.

Most recently Andrei Kirilenko went from the NBA to CSKA and back to the NBA this year. Theo Papaloukas signed a 10.5million 3 year deal with CSKA after the Beijing Olympics despite having pretty much NBA team in the league chasing him. Ex-Lakers Sasha Vujacic and Jordan Farmar are now in Europe.

I think people watch Euroleague and think it's slow and therefore not good. The reality is much, much different. It's a different toe of game than the NBA and not as athletic, but is a more fundamentally sound game with emphasis on defence, passing, teamwork and pure shooting. Having played at a relatively high level myself trust me when you see a 6'10" Russian forward pulling up on a fast-break and shooting a three like it's a layup you realise we play a different game in Ireland than these boys do.

Brandon Jennings spent his year out in Italy instead of going to college. He averaged 7.6 points in the Italian league. He scored 55 in one game as a rookie less than a year later in the NBA! Jennings is almost at All Star Level in the NBA.

There are some other examples of guys who've taken a year or two in Europe instead of the NBA for various reasons, too small for their position, too light, need to Workin certain aspects of their game etc. the Euroleague is the best league by far outside of the NBA and you can see this in how close Euroleague teams come to beating the NBA teams when they play.

If you ever get a chance to go to a Euroleague game, do. The atmosphere is unreal - esp. In Turkey, Greece or Croatia. And if you can make it to the Euroleague Top Four, it's simply amazing.

buyer95

Yeah NBA fans like to sh(i)t on the Euroleague, but in many ways it is a more skillful game than the NBA. There is much less of an emphasis on isolation offense, and as most players can't rely on amazing athleticism the core skills of the game, passing, shooting and good team defense are really to the fore. Butter Suki spoke above about players who stayed longer in Europe, I think Rubio is a good example there. He was drafted in 2009, but stayed in Europe for 2 more years, and came to the US with an NBA ready game. His passing is marveled at, but that is because there are much less elite passers in the NBA then in Europe. That being said I still love watching the NBA, and will at some stage in the not too distant future(I hope) catch a Knicks game in MSG. There different games, both great, and both deserve respect.

limerickfc

Do ya know if theres anyway to view the country rankings for places allocated.?
Whats yer opinion on a joint english, Irish, scotish and welsh league.?
Surly that would atleast boost revenue and improve the quality all around?

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

Do ya know if theres anyway to view the country rankings for places allocated.?
Whats yer opinion on a joint english, Irish, scotish and welsh league.?
Surly that would atleast boost revenue and improve the quality all around?

Euroleague? No - closed shop and can't see that changing until the game picks up here. Reality is most teams at that level sell out 10,000-15,000 seater arenas for every game. Irish crowds are like 200 except for the very big games. Those crowds = revenue = higher standard of play. And a lot of the teams have huge backing through sponsors, very rich owners and affiliation to soccer teams (Real Madrid, FC Bareclona etc). It's a virtuous circle.

Joint league? Nice idea but the travel costs alone would exclude the Irish teams. Throw in the increased cost of a higher calibre American player(s) and it qucikly becomes a non-runner. Such a shame really. The mid-late 80s Irish teams could possibly have competed in this type of league but not now. Keep coming back to this point but it was the removal of the 2nd American that destroyed Irish Basketball.

And not forgetting gthe Scots and Welsh teams are worse than the Irish teams!

limerickfc

I suppose we can all dream ha

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

I suppose we can all dream ha

Dream on dreamer!

For me a shocking inditement of the game is that the National female team (at the time ranked in the secoind tier of Euro women's basketball) was disbanded over not being able to secure €50k sponosrship to compete in the Euros. In the same week as Padriag Harrington reportedly signed/renewed a €300,000 sponsorship deal with O2......

So you have on one hand no national team of the most popular game for teenage girls in the country consumed across all demographics and income brackets; and on the other an elite sportsman cleaning up in a relatively elitist, minority sport. Strange world!

limerickfc

Yano never though ha 50 years down te line basketball here could be like rugby and we could have a munster team playing in the euroleague ha

Grand Moff Tarkin

limerickfc wrote: »

Yano never though ha 50 years down te line basketball here could be like rugby and we could have a munster team playing in the euroleague ha

Only for the rule change to one American per team at the start of the 90's we might have had one or two Cork teams playing Euroleague.:(

ButtersSuki

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Only for the rule change to one American per team at the start of the 90's we might have had one or two Cork teams playing Euroleague.:(

That would be a no.............

Unless one of those teams managed to get a 3rd American and approx. the €4million MINMIUM required to compete in the Euroleague.

These are the TOTAL BUDGETS (not just the net base salaries of the players), and in EUROS €.


Euroleague:
1. CSKA Moscow - €34 million euros

2. Barcelona Basquet - €28.5 million euros

3. Real Madrid - €28 million euros

4. Fenerbahce - €27 million euros

5. Efes - €23 million euros

6. Olimpia Milano - €20 million euros

7. Khimky Moscow Region - €19 million euros

8. Olympiacos - €18 million euros

9. Panathinaikos - €17 million euros

10. Maccabi Tel Aviv - €15.5 million euros

11. Baskonia Vitoria - €12.5 million euros

12. Zalgiris Kaunas - €12 million euros

13. Malaga - €12 million euros

14. Montepaschi Siena - €10 million euros

15. Brose Baskets - €9 million euros

16. Cantu - €8.5 million euros

17. ALBA Berlin - €8 million euros

18. Cedevita - €7 million euros

19. Besiktas - €7 million euros

20. Lietuvos Rytas - €6 million euros

21. Prokom - €5 million euros

22. Elan Chalon - €5 million euros

23. Partizan - €4.5 million euros

24. Union Olimpija - €4 million euros


Total = €340.5 million euros

= €14.2 million euros average PER TEAM
Source: Euroleague official website.

Top 30 Euroleague Players Salaries:
http://www.talkbasket.net/salaries.html


Can we please now stop the delusional Munster/Cork is better than everywhere else in Ireland talk as I fear this will descend into the same sort of nonsense normally resevered for the Rugby Forum?!!

Thanks!

Grand Moff Tarkin

ButtersSuki wrote: »

That would be a no.............

Unless one of those teams managed to get a 3rd American and approx. the €4million MINMIUM required to compete in the Euroleague.

These are the TOTAL BUDGETS (not just the net base salaries of the players), and in EUROS €.


Euroleague:
1. CSKA Moscow - €34 million euros

2. Barcelona Basquet - €28.5 million euros

3. Real Madrid - €28 million euros

4. Fenerbahce - €27 million euros

5. Efes - €23 million euros

6. Olimpia Milano - €20 million euros

7. Khimky Moscow Region - €19 million euros

8. Olympiacos - €18 million euros

9. Panathinaikos - €17 million euros

10. Maccabi Tel Aviv - €15.5 million euros

11. Baskonia Vitoria - €12.5 million euros

12. Zalgiris Kaunas - €12 million euros

13. Malaga - €12 million euros

14. Montepaschi Siena - €10 million euros

15. Brose Baskets - €9 million euros

16. Cantu - €8.5 million euros

17. ALBA Berlin - €8 million euros

18. Cedevita - €7 million euros

19. Besiktas - €7 million euros

20. Lietuvos Rytas - €6 million euros

21. Prokom - €5 million euros

22. Elan Chalon - €5 million euros

23. Partizan - €4.5 million euros

24. Union Olimpija - €4 million euros


Total = €340.5 million euros

= €14.2 million euros average PER TEAM
Source: Euroleague official website.

Top 30 Euroleague Players Salaries:
http://www.talkbasket.net/salaries.html


Can we please now stop the delusional Munster/Cork is better than everywhere else in Ireland talk as I fear this will descend into the same sort of nonsense normally resevered for the Rugby Forum?!!

Thanks!

The mid to late 80's Neptune Stadium was a sold out venue week in week out for games and until the rule change there was never an issue for any club looking for sponsorship with big name brands. With the right management team i have no doubt a Cork team would have had an involvement with the Euroleague. Do not forget that Burgerland International(Neptune Basketball Club) took part in the basketball European Cup in the 1985-86 season.

limerickfc

Theres know need to fight about but it is true, We will never have any hope of progress to a real high quality level unless provincial teams are formed.

ButtersSuki

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

The mid to late 80's Neptune Stadium was a sold out venue week in week out for games and until the rule change there was never an issue for any club looking for sponsorship with big name brands. With the right management team i have no doubt a Cork team would have had an involvement with the Euroleague. Do not forget that Burgerland International(Neptune Basketball Club) took part in the basketball European Cup in the 1985-86 season.

Yes, they sold out a 3,500 seater stadium. Have you been to a Euroleague game? Most stadia are 10,000+ and most teams sell out all their games. And that's where it starts. Bums on seats = sponsors = revenue = talent. i've shown you the figues necessary to compete at euro level yet you seem to think some Irish companies wouldhave no trouble dishing out megabucks at the time of a recession in Ireland to play in the Euros. Not a chance. The gap is too big. You're talking in soccer terms Champions league versus League of Ireland. Even if we had the talent - which I wholeheartedly dispute - we simply did not have anything like the money necessary to compete at that level.

From memory, Neptune played one round and were beaten in round 1. That was also the second tier European competition at the time.

I'm not trying to argue mate but you're also seriously underestimating the size and skill levels differences of European players versus Irish players - leaving aside the quality of Americans.

In 1985-86, Nic Gallis was playing in Greece, Drazen Petrovic, Dino Radja, Toni Kukoc and Vlade Divac were playing in Yugoslavia, Arvidas Sabonis and Sarunas Marculionis were playing in Russia - but you seem to think the Neptune lads would compete with them? All of those players were either drafted or had significant NBA careers.

RUSSIA won the 1988 Olympics, with Yugoslavia taking 2nd. The USA roster was
Mitch Richmond
Charles Smith
Bimbo Coles
Hersey Hawkins
Jeff Grayer
Charles D. Smith
Willie Anderson
Stacey Augmon
Dan Majerle
Danny Manning
J. R. Reid
David Robinson

The US came third with that team - featuring 2 no. 1 draft picks and mostly lottery players.

For context, that Olympics was 2 years after the season you refer to. The European Championships of 1987 had Greece as winners, Russia 2nd and Yugoslavia 3rd. This was one year after the year you reference yet all of these players were olayng for club teams in Europe at the time. Are you seriously telling me that players of that calibre would be troubled by Neptune - no matter how great that Neptune team were in an Irish context?


A lot of the major European teams at that time didn't even bother with American players? Why? Because their own players were better.

It never ceases to amaze me how little people know about European basketball. Basketball is the national sport in Lithuania and Yugoslavia.

ploycell Kingston in the UK entered the Euros one year in the late 80s. they lost all 8 of their games in their pool (round 1!!) home and away and they had a 3rd American in addition to the standard 2 and English captain and ex-NBA player Martin Clark so on the floor they effectively had 4 Americans at the time. They (Kingston) with 2 Americans, not 3/4 would have been a good barometer of where that Neptune team stood in terms of talent vis a vis the rest of Europe at the time. It was a golden era for English basketball too - Manchester United had a team in the same way Barcelona and Real Madrid do in Spain. but like here, they blew it. Reality is any of the top tier European teams at the time would have hammered Neptune (and they were the best Irish team at the time).

Re. Money again - it sounds like you're talking about a few extra quid to run a team, you're actually talking hundreds of thousands if not millions to compete at that level back then. Why do you think the Russians and yugoslav guys i mentioned weren't going to the NBA back then? Petrovic signed for a us$1.5million a year with Real Madrid in 1987. Think about that for a minute. A million plus to play in Europe. That's one player on a squad of 10, plus travel plus costs plus salaries for the team and coaches and medical staff etc. What do you think the entire Neptune budget was in the great days? How much do you think Americans made in Ireland back then?

Need some more examples? Real Madrid sent their u-17 team to the Roy Curtis Tournament in 1995. They won 2 and lost 2 of their 4 games. Against 1 English, 1 Dutch and 2 Irish national league teams. U-17, no Americans against Men's Teams with Americans.

This is not an anti-Neptune or an anti-Irish basketball thing. I WISH WE WERE BETTER THAN WE ARE. I wish the game here was more popular. I wish more kids would play. I wish the national teams still existed. I wish there was more money in the game.

But coming out with stuff like you have is bonkers. Sorry!

Grand Moff Tarkin

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Yes, they sold out a 3,500 seater stadium. Have you been to a Euroleague game? Most stadia are 10,000+ and most teams sell out all their games. And that's where it starts. Bums on seats = sponsors = revenue = talent. i've shown you the figues necessary to compete at euro level yet you seem to think some Irish companies wouldhave no trouble dishing out megabucks at the time of a recession in Ireland to play in the Euros. Not a chance. The gap is too big. You're talking in soccer terms Champions league versus League of Ireland. Even if we had the talent - which I wholeheartedly dispute - we simply did not have anything like the money necessary to compete at that level.

From memory, Neptune played one round and were beaten in round 1. That was also the second tier European competition at the time.

I'm not trying to argue mate but you're also seriously underestimating the size and skill levels differences of European players versus Irish players - leaving aside the quality of Americans.

In 1985-86, Nic Gallis was playing in Greece, Drazen Petrovic, Dino Radja, Toni Kukoc and Vlade Divac were playing in Yugoslavia, Arvidas Sabonis and Sarunas Marculionis were playing in Russia - but you seem to think the Neptune lads would compete with them? All of those players were either drafted or had significant NBA careers.

RUSSIA won the 1988 Olympics, with Yugoslavia taking 2nd. The USA roster was
Mitch Richmond
Charles Smith
Bimbo Coles
Hersey Hawkins
Jeff Grayer
Charles D. Smith
Willie Anderson
Stacey Augmon
Dan Majerle
Danny Manning
J. R. Reid
David Robinson

The US came third with that team - featuring 2 no. 1 draft picks and mostly lottery players.

For context, that Olympics was 2 years after the season you refer to. The European Championships of 1987 had Greece as winners, Russia 2nd and Yugoslavia 3rd. This was one year after the year you reference yet all of these players were olayng for club teams in Europe at the time. Are you seriously telling me that players of that calibre would be troubled by Neptune - no matter how great that Neptune team were in an Irish context?


A lot of the major European teams at that time didn't even bother with American players? Why? Because their own players were better.

It never ceases to amaze me how little people know about European basketball. Basketball is the national sport in Lithuania and Yugoslavia.

ploycell Kingston in the UK entered the Euros one year in the late 80s. they lost all 8 of their games in their pool (round 1!!) home and away and they had a 3rd American in addition to the standard 2 and English captain and ex-NBA player Martin Clark so on the floor they effectively had 4 Americans at the time. They (Kingston) with 2 Americans, not 3/4 would have been a good barometer of where that Neptune team stood in terms of talent vis a vis the rest of Europe at the time. It was a golden era for English basketball too - Manchester United had a team in the same way Barcelona and Real Madrid do in Spain. but like here, they blew it. Reality is any of the top tier European teams at the time would have hammered Neptune (and they were the best Irish team at the time).

Re. Money again - it sounds like you're talking about a few extra quid to run a team, you're actually talking hundreds of thousands if not millions to compete at that level back then. Why do you think the Russians and yugoslav guys i mentioned weren't going to the NBA back then? Petrovic signed for a us$1.5million a year with Real Madrid in 1987. Think about that for a minute. A million plus to play in Europe. That's one player on a squad of 10, plus travel plus costs plus salaries for the team and coaches and medical staff etc. What do you think the entire Neptune budget was in the great days? How much do you think Americans made in Ireland back then?

Need some more examples? Real Madrid sent their u-17 team to the Roy Curtis Tournament in 1995. They won 2 and lost 2 of their 4 games. Against 1 English, 1 Dutch and 2 Irish national league teams. U-17, no Americans against Men's Teams with Americans.

This is not an anti-Neptune or an anti-Irish basketball thing. I WISH WE WERE BETTER THAN WE ARE. I wish the game here was more popular. I wish more kids would play. I wish the national teams still existed. I wish there was more money in the game.

But coming out with stuff like you have is bonkers. Sorry!

Again we will never know as the IBBA killed off all the momentum the sport had going. But i can see your points which are very well put together.

Also i need to add that Neptune team that competed in Europe were under orders to slow down in the away leg for fear of getting into the next round as the money (same problem as always) was not there.

ButtersSuki

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Again we will never know as the IBBA killed off all the momentum the sport had going. But i can see your points which are very well put together.

Also i need to add that Neptune team that competed in Europe were under orders to slow down in the away leg for fear of getting into the next round as the money (same problem as always) was not there.

Cheers for the reply. Kinda sums up what I was saying though in a way - the money to compete was never there - even in the glory days it was still a minority sport. And that was me round....it's a pool system in each round with 4 sets of home and away games in each round. Travel costs alone would bankrupt most teams.

All that said, looking forward to the Euroleague Final Four in London! Can't wait tbh.

Grand Moff Tarkin

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Cheers for the reply. Kinda sums up what I was saying though in a way - the money to compete was never there - even in the glory days it was still a minority sport. And that was me round....it's a pool system in each round with 4 sets of home and away games in each round. Travel costs alone would bankrupt most teams.

All that said, looking forward to the Euroleague Final Four in London! Can't wait tbh.

On the plus side i firmly believe it is not a question of if but when we see a few more irish people playing in the NBA and WNBA. There is some great talent out of Cork doing the business in England and America at the moment and all the signs look good for more players to come.

ButtersSuki

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

On the plus side i firmly believe it is not a question of if but when we see a few more irish people playing in the NBA and WNBA. There is some great talent out of Cork doing the business in England and America at the moment and all the signs look good for more players to come.

We've had one bonafide WNBA player - Susan Moran, who played one year (mainly on the bench) with the New York Liberty. Susan grew up in Ireland and learned to play here.

We've had one dubious NBA player in Pat Burke. I say dubious as he was born here but didn't grow up here or learn the game here - both of those he did in the US. Plus he was 6'11" or 7 foot depending on who you talked to - including Pat himself at times! I played with Pat and he'd say himself he was role player - boards predominantly and defensive presence (he was as wide as he was tall!) more than an offensive threat. Pat's height, size and position (not to mention work rate and heart etc.) helped him make the NBA - if he was 6'8" he'd never have made it. Not dissing him, just stating the obvious. The oft-heard adage that "you can't teach height or size" comes to mind.

Think once again you're getting a it carried away with the Cork thing. There are approx 300 players in the NBA. Bearing in mind the size of the American talent pool and the rising global standard, it's a stretch to say someone from as small a playing pool as Ireland will make the NBA.

I'm not saying Irish players couldn't have good college roles, but NBA? Come on. We're too small as a race height wise. Average height of guards in the Irish national league is less than 5'10". You have guys playing NBA who are 6'8" at guard. Plus they're quicker, plus they have greater shooting length and athletic ability and defensively size becomes hugely important (hands n passing lanes etc). There are exceptions of course - Nate Robinson springs to mind, but he can jump out of the gym. And American kids typically start playing much younger than our kids do here...plus they're playing in highly organised leagues with excellent facilities and highly qualified coaches. We're too far behind before we even start.

Look at the English players who made the NBA prior to Deng.....they tended to be 6'10"+ and role players (save for Martin Clark who I mentioned earlier - but even he was 6'9"). And the UK have a population of 60 million people!

Part of the problem is the standard of the local league. If you're not playing against better talent (I.e. Euroleague) you're not going to improve sufficiently. Look at the playing pool here. It's just too small. The NBA is a numbers game - every level you go up the vast majority of players drop out due to size, skill, speed, etc. etc. etc.

I think a far more realistic aim would be for Irish players to play in the Euroleague.....and for the bigger teams, not the minnows. We have had players play in Europe (Alan Conlon for one springs to mind). Getting a National team with entirely euroleague based or even standard players would be a huge advancement.

NBA is too much of a stretch. I'm not saying it will never happen.....but it's not going to happen with some guy in Cork deciding at 22 he's going to the NBA. For it to even have a chance, I'd say he'd have to at least enter mid-late in the high school system, go to a blue chip D1 basketball college AND MOST IMPORTANTLY be blessed with the genetic gifts to enable him to make it - size, speed, talent, world class athletic ability, work ethic and heart. And even still, with all that, chances are he'd be riding the pine.

buyer95

ButtersSuki wrote: »

We've had one bonafide WNBA player - Susan Moran, who played one year (mainly on the bench) with the New York Liberty. Susan grew up in Ireland and learned to play here.

We've had one dubious NBA player in Pat Burke. I say dubious as he was born here but didn't grow up here or learn the game here - both of those he did in the US. Plus he was 6'11" or 7 foot depending on who you talked to - including Pat himself at times! I played with Pat and he'd say himself he was role player - boards predominantly and defensive presence (he was as wide as he was tall!) more than an offensive threat. Pat's height, size and position (not to mention work rate and heart etc.) helped him make the NBA - if he was 6'8" he'd never have made it. Not dissing him, just stating the obvious. The oft-heard adage that "you can't teach height or size" comes to mind.

Think once again you're getting a it carried away with the Cork thing. There are approx 300 players in the NBA. Bearing in mind the size of the American talent pool and the rising global standard, it's a stretch to say someone from as small a playing pool as Ireland will make the NBA.

Wow, do you mean as in a pick up game?

ButtersSuki

buyer95 wrote: »

Wow, do you mean as in a pick up game?

Nope, National Team. Long time ago....

kumate_champ07

as mentioned by ButtersSuki we have a small population and not enough tall players, its that simple.

shikaakwa312

Would BI grant an American Irish citizenship just to play for them? I want to gain dual citizenship and I am a generation away from being able to due it through family ties. I am capable of it skill wise- obvi not for the U.S. team lol but my skill level is akin to any of the Americans in the Superleague from the youtube videos ive watched and I could play semi pro level in US. Plus, I saw a video of the irish national team and they werent all born there so im assuming they were granted citizenship some other way...Thanks.

buyer95

shikaakwa312 wrote: »

Would BI grant an American Irish citizenship just to play for them? I want to gain dual citizenship and I am a generation away from being able to due it through family ties. I am capable of it skill wise- obvi not for the U.S. team lol but my skill level is akin to any of the Americans in the Superleague from the youtube videos ive watched and I could play semi pro level in US. Plus, I saw a video of the irish national team and they werent all born there so im assuming they were granted citizenship some other way...Thanks.

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but currently the Irish national team is disbanded due to financial difficulties. You would need to get a superleague team to take you on first anyway, and tbh I have no idea what standard you. Post some videos if you have any. Some of the american's who have played in the superleague in the not too distant past were really high quality players.

kumate_champ07

how does Ireland have a national cricket team but no basketball team?

shikaakwa312

buyer95 wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but currently the Irish national team is disbanded due to financial difficulties. You would need to get a superleague team to take you on first anyway, and tbh I have no idea what standard you. Post some videos if you have any. Some of the american's who have played in the superleague in the not too distant past were really high quality players.

Alright thanks yeah i knew the team was disbanded at the moment but i was referring to the future. Or even if a superleague team could hook me up i dont know how much clout they have with that sort of thing. I have seen multiple videos and i fairly confident i would be an impact player on a side. I play PG and my strengths are passing defense FT shooting and awareness. The only things id like to improve upon is my offensive post game which isnt a big deal and im a very streaky 3 pt shooter but when im on im the best guy in the gym. Kinda like a poor mans tony parker but not as effective near the basket but a better defender. Played my whole life in chicago and you learn defense here thats for sure.

ButtersSuki

shikaakwa312 wrote: »

Alright thanks yeah i knew the team was disbanded at the moment but i was referring to the future. Or even if a superleague team could hook me up i dont know how much clout they have with that sort of thing. I have seen multiple videos and i fairly confident i would be an impact player on a side. I play PG and my strengths are passing defense FT shooting and awareness. The only things id like to improve upon is my offensive post game which isnt a big deal and im a very streaky 3 pt shooter but when im on im the best guy in the gym. Kinda like a poor mans tony parker but not as effective near the basket but a better defender. Played my whole life in chicago and you learn defense here thats for sure.

BI have zero political and administrative influence. I'd honestly say they wouldn't even have a blue where to start with a residency permit as most (if not all) foreign players who played for the national team have come to the table having organised their papers themselves. Don't get your hopes up, Basketball is a real minority sport here and way below media radar. To compound this BI are really amateur in pretty much everything they do. Sorry!

Have you played college ball? If so what division and school?

shikaakwa312

Yeah Im no longer as worried about the citizenship thing because I got some great news earlier today. As for the BI well basketball is in its infancy there and i think you guys do quite well for yourselves given the resources and popularity but yeah i hear what youre saying. I couldve played D3, NAIA, or Juco college but chose another sport but i play on 2 clubs and i play with current and former college players frequently. One of the clubs I am on plays against Juco, D1, d2, d3 (all levels) players and is a supplement to there season. If I had to measure myself I would say I am like a D3, JUCO, or NAIA quality point guard but I am young and still have a couple years of college left. But no I am not like a D1 player being recruited by foreign teams or have an agent or nothing like that. I will really just join anyway for the fun of it even if it didnt give me any benefits. As for the media- I read online that RTE covered a final either superleague or natl cup not sure... thats pretty cool though.

walrusgumble

padraig_f wrote: »

On a similar note, good article today about Luol Deng, and the challenges of making it to the NBA from over here:
From London to London, a basketball world apart

Now, that dude has got a story! Huge player for the Bulls

walrusgumble

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

how does Ireland have a national cricket team but no basketball team?

ah sure, the British legacy never left lol

Felexicon

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

how does Ireland have a national cricket team but no basketball team?

Jesus if we were as good at basketball as we are at cricket we'd be doing grand