Chick-Fil-A and Freedom of Religion

qrrgprgua

What do you think of the debate raging in the US about Chick-Fil-A's views on traditional Christian values?

What is wrong with a Person or group or business saying we support our faith?

I saw a Letter from Boston's mayor saying they were not welcome to open an outlet.... But lots of groups already in Boston have the exact same views.

Seems like a person can't have a Religious view any more if it does not run with the trend of modern society.

Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance; the concept is generally recognized also to include the freedom to change religion or not to follow any religion.

MrPudding

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What do you think of the debate raging in the US about Chick-Fil-A's views on traditional Christian values?

What is wrong with a Person or group or business saying we support our faith?

I saw a Letter from Boston's mayor saying they were not welcome to open an outlet.... But lots of groups already in Boston have the exact same views.

Seems like a person can't have a Religious view any more if it does not run with the trend of modern society.

When an organisation declares a position, on something like religion, it can make other people not of that faith feel uncomfortable.

What of the chain had said "we believe that white is best." would you have a problem with that?

Again, this is not about suppressing the rights of the religious, they are. It being told to not be christian, it is about where and when t is appropriate to mke those views public and how.

MrP

qrrgprgua

MrPudding wrote: »

When an organisation declares a position, on something like religion, it can make other people not of that faith feel uncomfortable.

What of the chain had said "we believe that white is best." would you have a problem with that?

Again, this is not about suppressing the rights of the religious, they are. It being told to not be christian, it is about where and when t is appropriate to mke those views public and how.

MrP

OK... But they are the same views as many other organisation.

Bit of a PR disaster.. But at the end of the day its the same views as many other organisations have.

I hear that chilk-fil-A has been busy all week as supports (republicans) have been eating there. You never know it could do some good?

Newaglish

I think the problem is that they refuse to hire people of certain faiths, LGBT people etc. It's discrimination.

qrrgprgua

Newaglish wrote: »

I think the problem is that they refuse to hire people of certain faiths, LGBT people etc. It's discrimination.

Nope.. They done discriminate in hiring.

Quatermain

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Nope.. They done discriminate in hiring.

Kinda seems like they do, given their very personal interview process:
http://unfollowingjesus.com/files/2012/03/Chick-fil-A-is-hiring.jpg

Why would a fast food restaurant possibly want to know about your "sexual relationship history"? Also freaking love the little disclaimer at the bottom: "Anyone leading a life of sin need not apply".

Links234

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What do you think of the debate raging in the US about Chick-Fil-A's views on traditional Christian values?

What is wrong with a Person or group or business saying we support our faith?

I saw a Letter from Boston's mayor saying they were not welcome to open an outlet.... But lots of groups already in Boston have the exact same views.

Seems like a person can't have a Religious view any more if it does not run with the trend of modern society.

This is absolutely nothing to do with "views" or their religion, it's about the company donating MILLIONS to anti-gay hate groups

they are perfectly entitled to have their "view" or "faith" but when the company donates huge amounts of money to hate groups, they're taking action against a marginalized group of people. I think everyone should know exactly where their money goes if they eat at this establishment, and make a decision on whether they would like to support hate groups by proxy of a restaurant chain.

all this talk about them having their "views" is nothing but nonsense

qrrgprgua

Links234 wrote: »

This is absolutely nothing to do with "views" or their religion, it's about the company donating MILLIONS to anti-gay hate groups

You mean they donated money to Baptist church.....

I give money every week to Catholic Church...Or other Catholic Organisations.

dlofnep

They can make whatever declarations they want, so long as they are willing to accept the criticism that goes along with it.

Links234

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You mean they donated money to Baptist church.....

I give money every week to Catholic Church...Or other Catholic Organisations.

No I mean hate groups like Focus on the Family and others

qrrgprgua

Links234 wrote: »

No I mean hate groups like Focus on the Family and others

That's what you want to label them with..

But people are free to have and follow a Religion and its teachings.

Quatermain

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You mean they donated money to Baptist church.....

I give money every week to Catholic Church...Or other Catholic Organisations.

No, they make regular donations to noted hate group American Family Association,whose leader recently made this absolutely charming remark: https://twitter.com/BryanJFischer/status/226291113458282497

Links234

qrrgprgua wrote: »

That's what you want to label them with..

But people are free to have and follow a Religion and its teachings.

they're not merely religious groups, these are hate groups:

http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001

and yes, they are free to have/follow a religion, but that's got absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue at all.

super_furry

Quatermain wrote: »

Kinda seems like they do, given their very personal interview process:
http://unfollowingjesus.com/files/2012/03/Chick-fil-A-is-hiring.jpg

Why would a fast food restaurant possibly want to know about your "sexual relationship history"? Also freaking love the little disclaimer at the bottom: "Anyone leading a life of sin need not apply".

That's pretty clear - No gay people need apply.

Manach

Up till recently I'd not hear of the restaurant chain, but given its owners strong emphasis on support on traditional family values with an orthodox view on marriage I'd not surprised it has engendered the annoyance of liberal US politicians, so much so that there are willing to ignore strictures on freedom of religion in their own constitution to deny them a building permit in certain wards in Chicago.

Benny_Cake

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What do you think of the debate raging in the US about Chick-Fil-A's views on traditional Christian values?

What is wrong with a Person or group or business saying we support our faith?

I saw a Letter from Boston's mayor saying they were not welcome to open an outlet.... But lots of groups already in Boston have the exact same views.

Seems like a person can't have a Religious view any more if it does not run with the trend of modern society.

The Mayor wouldn't have the power to prevent them from opening outlets..and he must know that.

As for Chick-Fil-A, if they are entitled to express their views on a subject - and spend millions of dollars doing so, others are entitled to respond to that. Simply claiming that your position is a religious one doesn't give you a free pass from criticism.

super_furry

Manach wrote: »

Up till recently I'd not hear of the restaurant chain, but given its owners strong emphasis on support on traditional family values with an orthodox view on marriage I'd not surprised it has engendered the annoyance of liberal US politicians, so much so that there are willing to ignore strictures on freedom of religion in their own constitution to deny them a building permit in certain wards in Chicago.

I think it's fair to say enough for a Mayor to say that he doesn't want a company that discriminates against people so blatantly to set up shop in his back garden. They're clearly anti-gay in their hiring policies.

qrrgprgua

super_furry wrote: »

I think it's fair to say enough for a Mayor to say that he doesn't want a company that discriminates against people so blatantly to set up shop in his back garden. They're clearly anti-gay in their hiring policies.

Is it wrong for people with the same religious views to congregate and eat together?


The Muslim centre in Dublin which has a restaurant also does not employ Gay people.

Is faith confined? I mean if I went and said I wanted to work in the Mormon church they would require I was a Mormon and followed their faith?

A lot of people in Boston won't share the majors views.

At the end of the day.. its a business and if people don't eat their they close.

Quatermain

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Is it wrong for people with the same religious views to congregate and eat together?


The Muslim centre in Dublin which has a restaurant also does not employ Gay people.

Is faith confined? I mean if I went and said I wanted to work in the Mormon church they would require I was a Mormon and followed their faith?

A lot of people in Boston won't share the majors views.

At the end of the day.. its a business and if people don't eat their they close.

1. Absolutely not, but it does seem strange that there is an entire restaurant chain out to condemn a different way of life.

2. Well, now we have another place to boycott.

3. Bit of a difference between a church, and a place where you can order fried chicken. Of course, if churches did start offering fried chicken at the half-way mark, I think attendance may skyrocket.

4. And the best way to get people eating there is to establish strong ties with hate groups. I don't see how that could possibly backfire.

Benny_Cake

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Is it wrong for people with the same religious views to congregate and eat together?


The Muslim centre in Dublin which has a restaurant also does not employ Gay people.

Is faith confined? I mean if I went and said I wanted to work in the Mormon church they would require I was a Mormon and followed their faith?

A lot of people in Boston won't share the majors views.

At the end of the day.. its a business and if people don't eat their they close.

The law is the law, and it forbids discrimination in hiring on a number of grounds. Religious organisations are exempt from such requirements in a number of jurisdictions, but a fast-food chain hardly qualifies as such. Surely you can see how this is a dangerous road to go down, and it could easily be turned against Christians?

qrrgprgua

Quatermain wrote: »

1. Absolutely not, but it does seem strange that there is an entire restaurant chain out to condemn a different way of life.

2. Well, now we have another place to boycott.

3. Bit of a difference between a church, and a place where you can order fried chicken. Of course, if churches did start offering fried chicken at the half-way mark, I think attendance may skyrocket.

4. And the best way to get people eating there is to establish strong ties with hate groups. I don't see how that could possibly backfire.

Why should God be confined to our lives on Sundays? Can we not live a Christian life 24/7? Are we not entitled to have a business where Christians share the same values? and where Christian come to congregate and eat?

What is wrong with Christians having a Christian chain of restaurants where Christians eat?

Manach

If the law on discrimination is being broken, then the individuals can themselves seek redress or have the government do it for them. In the Chicago case (ARAIK), this directly relates to statements made by the owner in support of traditional marriage and local politicians blocking a shop because of that.

Quatermain

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What is wrong with Christians having a Christian chain of restaurants where Christians eat?

Nothing in and of itself. You wanna be Christian, go be Christian. I am the last person who will stand in your way. But don't take your religion and family values (whatever the deuce they are) use them as a blunt instrument.

Also, and this is a point you don't seem to be getting, they support hate groups. Not Christian communities, not concerned citizens, actual, bona-fide hate groups.

Benny_Cake

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Why should God be confined to our lives on Sundays? Can we not live a Christian life 24/7? Are we not entitled to have a business where Christians share the same values? and where Christian come to congregate and eat?

What is wrong with Christians having a Christian chain of restaurants where Christians eat?

I wouldn't argue that Christians are entitled to have their own chain of restaurants (although fast-food? Really?), but that doesn't exempt them from the same requirements of any business - no discrimination in access, or hiring. Though surely Christians should engage with the world instead of withdrawing from it?

qrrgprgua

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The law is the law, and it forbids discrimination in hiring on a number of grounds. Religious organisations are exempt from such requirements in a number of jurisdictions, but a fast-food chain hardly qualifies as such. Surely you can see how this is a dangerous road to go down, and it could easily be turned against Christians?

Absolutely... Personally I think they are crazy... But its really their choice and America is the country of "Freedoms"

I suppose they are only doing it because they know they have a base of supporters who will eat there.. So not sure if this is publicity or religious.

super_furry

Sorry qrrgprgua, but you can't compare a place of worship or church to a fast food restaurant.

tommy2bad

super_furry wrote: »

Sorry qrrgprgua, but you can't compare a place of worship or church to a fast food restaurant.

Maybe they only serve loaves and fishes

doctoremma

Dan Cathy should have kept his mouth shut - the best comment I've seen on this: WhyTF does a fast food joint have a stance on same-sex marriage? Failing that, he should have been far more careful with his talk.

'I don't support gay marriage' is untouchable.

'My business is run on principles which include opposition to same-sex marriage' - is the guy an idiot?

If he'd kept it as a personal view (and assuming non-discriminatory practices in the actual running of the business), there would be nothing anyone could do except boycott. And those wanting to find their kindred homophobes would get the subtext.

Of course, it's not clear that his business was non-discriminatory, in which case they get what they deserve.

PDN

Their chicken sandwiches are, quite simply, the tastiest you can buy anywhere in the States. Their Cookies & Cream milkshake is pretty cool too.

dlofnep

PDN wrote: »

Their chicken sandwiches are, quite simply, the tastiest you can buy anywhere in the States. Their Cookies & Cream milkshake is pretty cool too.

Yeah, but their views are very distasteful. Religious-Fascism.

Wiggles88

PDN wrote: »

Their chicken sandwiches are, quite simply, the tastiest you can buy anywhere in the States. Their Cookies & Cream milkshake is pretty cool too.

Cool story bro...not sure what it has to do with the op or anything discusses since but yeah cool story.

Onesimus

As a Christian fast food chain restauraunt, I agree that they should welcome people of all beliefs to come and work for them. If a member of the LGBT community came and asked me to work for my Christian bookshop, the immediate thought would be, ''What would Jesus do?, he who sat with saints and sinners alike?''.

But in saying that, I can't imagine anyone from the LGBT community wanting to come and work for me or a Catholic bookshop, but at least the invitation is there.

georgieporgy

Whatever they're doing (business wise) it seems to be working. Are they the No 2 chicken chain in North America? Perhaps they decided to just concentrate on 98% of the market. And not forcing their staff to work Sundays is sure to be appreciated by their workforce.

Cienciano

Onesimus wrote: »

As a Christian fast food chain restauraunt, I agree that they should welcome people of all beliefs to come and work for them. If a member of the LGBT community came and asked me to work for my Christian bookshop, the immediate thought would be, ''What would Jesus do?, he who sat with saints and sinners alike?''.

But in saying that, I can't imagine anyone from the LGBT community wanting to come and work for me or a Catholic bookshop, but at least the invitation is there.

I think more people should ask themselves that question when they're doing something like this in the name of christianity. The world would be a better place.

homer911

I'm sure there are lots of organisations out there, particularly in the states, with a Christian ethos - I noticed the bottom of a forever21.com bag on the luas the other day.. "John 3:16"

Benny_Cake

homer911 wrote: »

I'm sure there are lots of organisations out there, particularly in the states, with a Christian ethos - I noticed the bottom of a forever21.com bag on the luas the other day.. "John 3:16"

There is a very good article here comparing the approach taken by Dan Cathy with that of Bill Marriott (a devout Mormon). It has to be possible to run a business influenced by Christian ethics without excluding anyone, either as customers or employees. It would be interesting to see if Dan Cathy's Christian ethos influences the rates Chick-fil-o employees are paid, or the practices in the farms that supply the chicken. It's very simple just to focus on gay marriage.

doctoremma

Onesimus wrote: »

If a member of the LGBT community came and asked me to work for my Christian bookshop, the immediate thought would be, ''What would Jesus do?, he who sat with saints and sinners alike?''.

I completely appreciate your sentiment but - how would you know? In the UK, you are in no way allowed to ask interview questions about someone's sexuality, assuming similar for you?

Onesimus

doctoremma wrote: »

I completely appreciate your sentiment but - how would you know? In the UK, you are in no way allowed to ask interview questions about someone's sexuality, assuming similar for you?

Well I'm saying it as in: lets say a person who I absolutely knew was gay approached me because I know them personally etc etc.

asking people about their sexual orientation is madness I agree. If someone asked me it I'd be raging about it. Why is it important for the work force?

But I can understand companies wanting to delve into their history or finding out if they are hiring a once upon a time sex offender etc etc.

Snappy Smurf

Good on them. Lots of companies openly declare support for gay unions and traditional people have to bite their tongue and accept it. If all the talk of tolerance and diversity is not empty rhetoric, then this company must be embraced and celebrated by all proponents of diversity. That is, of course, if they truly do celebrate diversity. If I was in America right now, I'd order up a nice sandwich. It is Friday though. Any fish options???

Quatermain

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

Good on them. Lots of companies openly declare support for gay unions and traditional people have to bite their tongue and accept it. If all the talk of tolerance and diversity is not empty rhetoric, then this company must be embraced and celebrated by all proponents of diversity. That is, of course, if they truly do celebrate diversity. If I was in America right now, I'd order up a nice sandwich. It is Friday though. Any fish options???

First of all, as a company whose main mission is to distribute heart-clogging fried foods, their taking a stance on this subject is just a little odd. I'm all for the exchange of ideas, but I don't see why any should just be dismissed right out of hand, especially when said grease-purveyors begin poking their noses into their employees' sexual history and dismissing those "leading a life of sin".

Secondly, they celebrate diversity like Shaka supported friendly discussions. As has been mentioned before, they support well-known, well-documented hate groups whose primary agenda is undermining and denying the civil rights of a minority.

Also, I don't know about fish, but they do serve pork, despite biblical warnings. Bon appetite.

doctoremma

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

Lots of companies openly declare support for gay unions and traditional people have to bite their tongue and accept it.

It's beyond me how anyone thinks these two premises are equivalent (if opposite).

Position 1: "Liberals" support equality for gay people. This support (and its putative outcomes) in no way impacts on the freedom and rights of "non-Liberals" to pursue health, wealth and happiness.

Position 2: "Traditionalists" oppose equality for gay people. This opposition (and its putative outcomes) very much impacts on the freedom and rights of "non-traditionalists" to pursue health, wealth and happiness.

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

If all the talk of tolerance and diversity is not empty rhetoric, then this company must be embraced and celebrated by all proponents of diversity. That is, of course, if they truly do celebrate diversity.

So to demonstrate our diversity credentials, we must accept practices which seek to stamp out diversity? Que?

Morbert

Unfortunately, they do taste nicer than KFC.

Links234

Onesimus wrote: »

As a Christian fast food chain restauraunt, I agree that they should welcome people of all beliefs to come and work for them. If a member of the LGBT community came and asked me to work for my Christian bookshop, the immediate thought would be, ''What would Jesus do?, he who sat with saints and sinners alike?''.

But in saying that, I can't imagine anyone from the LGBT community wanting to come and work for me or a Catholic bookshop, but at least the invitation is there.

why do you think that people who are LGBT wouldn't want to work at a Catholic bookshop (or for that matter, any religious-run business)? it's like you suggest that LGBT people can't be religious, when really they can be as religious as anyone. there are people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender in all faiths

Tea_Bag

I certainly wouldn't want to work with people who would openly discriminate against me.

Aren't they breaking the law by asking some of those things in your job application? why haven't they been taken to court over this?

Sonics2k

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

Good on them. Lots of companies openly declare support for gay unions and traditional people have to bite their tongue and accept it. If all the talk of tolerance and diversity is not empty rhetoric, then this company must be embraced and celebrated by all proponents of diversity. That is, of course, if they truly do celebrate diversity. If I was in America right now, I'd order up a nice sandwich. It is Friday though. Any fish options???

So, you're ignoring the recent attacks on Oreo cookies when they announced support for LGBT rights and were attacked with threats, insults and all manner of horrible things?

Onesimus

Links234 wrote: »

why do you think that people who are LGBT wouldn't want to work at a Catholic bookshop (or for that matter, any religious-run business)? it's like you suggest that LGBT people can't be religious, when really they can be as religious as anyone. there are people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender in all faiths

I never said ''any religious run business''. So lets stick with what I said which is ''Catholic bookshop''. I assume this is because anyone from this community is obviously in the know that the Catholic Church does not agree with homosexuality etc etc. The person working for my bookshop would have to be well grounded in study upon the orthodox theology of the Catholic faith too. And would be required to discuss with customers apologetic books that are written that show homosexuality to be wrong and so on. It would be a bit messy for them, so I assume they wouldn't apply, but the invite is always there as long as they meet the requirements for the jobs position and are in agreement with all the core tenets of the faith.

doctoremma

Onesimus wrote: »

but the invite is always there as long as they meet the requirements for the jobs position and are in agreement with all the core tenets of the faith.

They have to agree with core tenets of Catholicism? Or simply be well-versed in them? Wouldn't the first be discriminatory and hence, illegal?

Onesimus

doctoremma wrote: »

They have to agree with core tenets of Catholicism? Or simply be well-versed in them? Wouldn't the first be discriminatory and hence, illegal?

Would you hire a carpenter when really what you run is a plumbing business?

It's a Catholic bookshop that acts as a pillar of preaching the faith. It's not illegal to put up requirements for working in a bookshop that the applicant must be well versed and willing to educated customers on orthodox theology and all things Catholic.

Tea_Bag

Onesimus wrote: »

Would you hire a carpenter when really what you run is a plumbing business?

It's a Catholic bookshop that acts as a pillar of preaching the faith. It's not illegal to put up requirements for working in a bookshop that the applicant must be well versed and willing to educated customers on orthodox theology and all things Catholic.

would you not hire someone that is gay?

religious discrimination is illegal. end of.

doctoremma

Onesimus wrote: »

Would you hire a carpenter when really what you run is a plumbing business?

It's a Catholic bookshop that acts as a pillar of preaching the faith. It's not illegal to put up requirements for working in a bookshop that the applicant must be well versed and willing to educated customers on orthodox theology and all things Catholic.

Agree. But it's probably illegal to specify that they must be a Catholic (or of any faith).

Onesimus

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree. But it's probably illegal to specify that they must be a Catholic (or of any faith).

That may be true. But it's important they are 100% on Catholic doctrine and have studied theology and will not dissent from that Catholic doctrine.