British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Hagz

jm08 wrote: »

I didn't realise it was a comparison to Brian o'Driscoll you were after.

I'm not after a comparison to Brian O'Driscoll, I interpreted your post as a comparison between the two in terms of their success in captaining the Lions to a victory.

bamboozle

right now,

nailed on test starters (if fit)
Best
Grey
Phillips
Roberts
Warburton

i reckon the captain will be either Warburton or Best, bearing in mind the big match up in these tests will be Warburton v's Pocock. Gatland as a former hooker might consider Best an ideal candidate for captain, i know i would.

i reckon this will be the strongest lions squad since '97 and it will be interesting how Gatland approaches it, Oz scrum is not to be feared so will we go with Jenkins Best and Jones in front row to secure scrum dominance or plump with Healy for his broken play ability on the hard ground.

i reckon BOD and POC will need big injury free seasons to make the plane. If fit i reckon we'll see Heaslip, SOB, Bowe, Best, Healy, Ross, Kearney, Ferris and POC make the plane, i reckon the tour might be 12 months too late for BOD unfortunately.

i love Lions rugby.

We're pretty disillusioned as fans if we think that BOD or POC deserve starts on merit after the season they've both had.

Injuries can't simply be "excepted" when it comes to a tour, you need players that can survive some bashing.

Luckily for both, they'll have plenty of time to prove that they're more than worth their place, but if the teams were picked tomorrow, and were playing on Wednesday, they'd both be struggling for inclusion in a starting role, let alone a captain's position.

GerM

I don't think there's a single nailed on starter for the Lions at this point which means the captaincy is very much still up in the air. The most likely candidates are probably Warburton and POC. The likes of SOB and Lydiate both playing superbly and have a stronger case as the first choice flanks than a Lydiate/Warburton or SOB/Warburton partnership. Factor in Warburton also came off second best repeatedly to Pocock recently. POC is playing well but lock is a seriously competitve area with the likes of Gray, Bradley Davies, Donnacha Ryan and AWJ all having great seasons to at least match POC.

Both POC and Warburton are extremely injury prone also. Warburton missed 2 games in this year's 6N and came off early in three more tests as well as missing a large chunk of the domestic season. POC has managed 3/8 tests this season and is getting a bit older now too.

Every likely starter has someone that provides serious competition and is capable of taking the jersey. I don't think we'll see the coaching team deciding on a captain until late in the day. I genuinely wouldn't rule out: Rory Best, POC, BOD, Rees, Warburton, Robshaw (Ciaran Fitz syndrome) and even a few club/provincial captains. If a senior player with captaincy experience emerges as a nailed on starter, it's not unthinkable that their name will come into the mix. MJ captained the Lions when Dean Richards and Phil de Glanville captained his country and club respectively.

danthefan

I'd bet the house neither BOD nor POC will captain the tour. I don't think either are even completely guaranteed to make the tour, never mind start and captain.

cgpg5

While I'd agree that there are very few nailed on starters as of now, I'd have to say Richie Gray is as nailed on as you'll get.

Quint2010

jm08 wrote: »

What bigger fish? Has Schmidt got a coaching job back in New Zealand next season?

Nothing's been announced but it wouldn't surprise me. His stock has risen hugely since 2010. I reckon this is his last year with Leinster anyway

CIARAN_BOYLE

Quint2010 wrote: »

Nothing's been announced but it wouldn't surprise me. His stock has risen hugely since 2010. I reckon this is his last year with Leinster anyway

His son is in fifth year this year isn't he. They might consider it best to allow him to finish off secondary school here.

The New Zealand system has a different curriculum for final exams and it would probably be bad for him to just attend the last year.

My guess is he will sign a one year extension with Leinster.

Fishooks12

I find it amazing how so few are willing to question the myth of Warburton. The guy is being made out to be a world beater, and while he's shown glimpses of it I think he's a lot more to do to convince me

I think Tipuric is going to be a better player

danthefan

Tipuric looks like a smashing player imo.

Warburton was talked up beyond all recognition in Ireland after the RWC QF, natural openside this, turnovers that. Most people still haven't figured out all he did was tackle. He's a very good player but definitely not standout imo.

roycon

Id say Warburton is the best player in the Northern hemisphere defintely the best 7 anyway. Unbelievable handling, lineout organisation, fitness and conditioning. the best tackler ive ever seen and brlliant at ruck time. The only thing hes lacking is size and carrying ability. With Gatland as coach he's a shoe in for the team and id say theres a strong chance he will be captain. Although Tupiric is a great player I dont know if he's up to the standard of Warburton just yet. The only black mark on Warbutons card is hes injury prone because hes a bit light and throws himself around and also the famous red card.
Are you sure your not thinking of Lydiate - all he does is tackle really

Kiwi_knock

I do not think Warburton is that great but Gatland really seems to like him so I would be surprised if he was not starting for the Lions and he has a good chance of being captain. The backrow is so competitive, we will leave behind players that would easily get into the Australian backrow.

Richie Gray looks at this moment the only guaranteed starter, so there is a big year ahead for a lot of players to stake a claim. The starting Scrum Half will be an interesting choice, it looks likely to be Phillips but I think Youngs would be a better choice.

The Lions should win the series, and should even a good shot at a whitewash. Australia will not be able to function if Pocock, Genia and O'Connor are shut down. I would be optimistic and say we will win the series 3-0.

tolosenc

I wouldn't count on POC or BOD even touring, let alone captaining the team.

Warburton is vastly overrated in Ireland. O'Brien is a better 7 - outplayed Richie McCaw, while needing hip surgery.

thomond2006

tolosenc wrote: »

I wouldn't count on POC or BOD even touring, let alone captaining the team.

Warburton is vastly overrated in Ireland. O'Brien is a better 7 - outplayed Richie McCaw, while needing hip surgery.

They'll take 5 locks, POC (if match fit) is definitely in the top 5 of Britain and Ireland.

On BOD, there's not much depth at 13 at the moment so IMO he'll definitely tour. Hogg is a potential bolter if Scotland decide to play him there (he's played at 13 for Glasgow).

tolosenc

thomond2006 wrote: »

They'll take 5 locks, POC (if match fit) is definitely in the top 5 of Britain and Ireland.

On BOD, there's not much depth at 13 at the moment so IMO he'll definitely tour. Hogg is a potential bolter there if Scotland decide to play him there (he's played at 13 for Glasgow).

Eek. Was thinking of a matchday 22.

matthew8

My ideal Lions team right now:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip (though I'm keeping an eye on Waldrom, potential sleeper)
9. Care
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Visser
15. Kearney

1 English, 2 Scottish, 3 Welsh and 9 Irish. Club form weighs heavily in this side, and it should. No way Gatland would pick it, but the side I would field.

cgpg5

matthew8 wrote: »

My ideal Lions team right now:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip (though I'm keeping an eye on Waldrom, potential sleeper)
9. Care
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Visser
15. Kearney

1 English, 2 Scottish, 3 Welsh and 9 Irish. Club form weighs heavily in this side, and it should. No way Gatland would pick it, but the side I would field.

Great shout the guy is a beast and was outstanding against the Boks. If he has a good 6n he'll surely make the tour anyway

Podge_irl

matthew8 wrote: »

My ideal Lions team right now:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip (though I'm keeping an eye on Waldrom, potential sleeper)
9. Care
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Visser
15. Kearney

1 English, 2 Scottish, 3 Welsh and 9 Irish. Club form weighs heavily in this side, and it should. No way Gatland would pick it, but the side I would field.

Why should club form weigh ao heavily? You havw the guts of an international side who have been very poor for much of the last 3 years. Not exactly picking on form

matthew8

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why should club form weigh ao heavily? You havw the guts of an international side who have been very poor for much of the last 3 years. Not exactly picking on form

You have the greatest European club team of all time too. Wales may have won the 6N, but they really haven't played very well recently.

GerM

Club form will come into play. In 2009, Shaw, Earls, Quinlan, Payne, Croft and Hook started a combined 3 or 4 games in the 2009 6N. The 6N will always be the big test but those that aren't selected will still have an opportunity to show they've the goods.

GerM

Waldrom is a good player and has a decent chance of touring but he needs to show a bit more and nail down the Leicester jersey ahead of Crane first. Prepared opposition sides have shown that he's shut down easily enough if you do your homework. Get in his face, take him low and don't let him get up a head of steam. His influence is negated hugely. Once you stop his carrying, he is very quiet.

Podge_irl

Club form will come in to play of course, but not to the extent that Ireland will end up with triple the representation of a grand slamming Wales.

Jame Gumb

Warburton's a shoo in to start and to be captain so any projected Test side without him in it is fundamentally inaccurate.

GerM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Warburton's a shoo in to start and to be captain so any projected Test side without him in it is fundamentally inaccurate.

He's arguably not the best 7 in Wales right now.

Besides that... Warburton for IRB POTY!

thomond2006

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Warburton's a shoo in to start and to be captain so any projected Test side without him in it is fundamentally inaccurate.

Given Wales' record for bringing in new players during Gatland's reign Warburton is no shoo in if he's not playing well. He's got Tipuric breathing down his neck plus Aaron Shingler was decent in the one Six Nations game he started IIRC.

In the news today, the ARU/Robbie Deans want an extended Super Rugby mid-season break so the Aussies can prepare for the series.

http://www.planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_7938186,00.html

With the SH season pretty congested now, unfortunately I see the Aussie franchises sending out weakened teams against the Lions.

Sindri

70% is a brilliant record.

My team.

1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Ryan
5. Jones
6. Ferris/Lydiate
7. O' Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Philips/Youngs
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. Davies/BOD
14. Cuthbert
15. Foden


The Welsh props to destroy them in the scrums. They won't like that. A physical domineering pack is what we need, not exactly the above but that is what we need although I do think Armitage could be a valuable payer to have playing Australia. I'd like to see him play against Pocock and I think he could negate him somewhat. Can't think of many more in the same class as Heaslip IMO but some other players would be more suited to playing Australia IMO. Philips I think may be shown up against Genia, it would probably be better to play a different type of scrum half. Sexton without a doubt, Bowe and a Welsh winger and Visser. I think Davies is a very good player. He always does things the right way. Foden is a better player IMO than Kearney or Halfpenney and I'd bring Halfpenney instead of Kearney.

Podge_irl

Forgive me if I'm being dim, but who's record is that chart referencing?

ormond lad

Podge_irl wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm being dim, but who's record is that chart referencing?

B&I Lions wiki

Podge_irl

I see.

Turns out I was being phenomenally dim.

culline

Sindri wrote: »

70% is a brilliant record.

My team.

1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Ryan
5. Jones
6. Ferris/Lydiate
7. O' Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Philips/Youngs
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. Roberts
13. Davies/BOD
14. Cuthbert
15. Foden


The Welsh props to destroy them in the scrums. They won't like that. A physical domineering pack is what we need, not exactly the above but that is what we need although I do think Armitage could be a valuable payer to have playing Australia. I'd like to see him play against Pocock and I think he could negate him somewhat. Can't think of many more in the same class as Heaslip IMO but some other players would be more suited to playing Australia IMO. Philips I think may be shown up against Genia, it would probably be better to play a different type of scrum half. Sexton without a doubt, Bowe and a Welsh winger and Visser. I think Davies is a very good player. He always does things the right way. Foden is a better player IMO than Kearney or Halfpenney and I'd bring Halfpenney instead of Kearney.

North, Warburton?

Jame Gumb

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

CatFromHue

Jame Gumb wrote: »

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

That was 3 years ago against a team that played to Kearneys strengths. The Aussies won't play that way, he isn't a definite starter. Possibly not even a definite tourist to be honest. Halfpenny, Hogg, and to a lesser extent Foden will be breathing down his neck.

Fishooks12

CatFromHue wrote: »

That was 3 years ago against a team that played to Kearneys strengths. The Aussies won't play that way, he isn't a definite starter. Possibly not even a definite tourist to be honest. Halfpenny, Hogg, and to a lesser extent Foden will be breathing down his neck.

Kearney isn't just the catching machine he's being made out to be lately, he's a far more potent broken field runner than halfpenny and I don't think the fact that Halfpenny is a goal-kicker will be much of an advantage with Sexton presumably at 10. Hogg is very young and more of a center IMO and Foden is just after losing the starting 15 shirt for England and has a very poor year

Plenty of teams didn't horse high balls up to him this year and along with Best he was still Ireland's stand out player and is still the frontrunner for the starting 15 shirt IMO

Don't see how you can say he might not be on the plane on the evidence of current form and ability

Tox56

If the tour was tommorow, Kearney is a definite tourist. Only an injury or a dramatic loss of form will see him fail to travel, whether or not he will start is the only question right now.

Benny Cake

Jame Gumb wrote: »

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

Lofty praise indeed...

danthefan

CatFromHue wrote: »

That was 3 years ago against a team that played to Kearneys strengths. The Aussies won't play that way, he isn't a definite starter. Possibly not even a definite tourist to be honest. Halfpenny, Hogg, and to a lesser extent Foden will be breathing down his neck.

He's as definite as anyone around at the moment.

jacothelad

Jame Gumb wrote: »

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

I'm sorry but that is just twaddle. How many series have you seen? Such rampant hyperbole is a real problem in some quarters. He was very good but getting the ball booted down his throat every few minutes didn't do him any harm. Why not be content with a bit of controlled praise instwead of posting like a Welsh fan?

RoundBox11

The only nailed on starters (barring injury) imo are Best and Gray.

I would love to say that Sexton and Kearney were too but i fear Gatland may favor Priestland/Biggar and Halfpenny out of bias.

I'd argue Adam Jones is pretty certain to start too, unless Cole can get firmly ahead of Castro at Leicester, which i can't see happening.


My starting 15 would be:

1. Healy (very close call with Jenkins)
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Denton

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Visser
12. Davies
13. BOD
14. North
15. Kearney


I know full well this wont be the team and i fear i'm viewing the pack with my green tinted glasses. I really feel Ferris is a better 6 than Lydiate and SOB deserves the 7 jersey more than Warburton. However i don't think Gatland will have the same opinion.

I'd like to think Heaslip could be the starting 8 but theres no way it'll be an all Irish back row. I wen't with Denton because he's got so much potential to improve between now and then (and also because i wanted to have 1 or 2 Scots in the team).

I'm shocked at the lack of depth at scrum half at the moment.

IMO Bod with Davies offers more than Davies and Roberts.

Jame Gumb

Benny Cake wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

Lofty praise indeed...

Or even Loftus praise...

It may have been 3 years ago but the guy is the reigning European Player of the Year.

His performance in that Test was possibly the greatest I've ever seen, and was roundly acknowledged by seasoned Lions watchers as incredible.

I was at the game and the South Africans were shocked at how good Kearney was.

To claim that he won't tour if fit is bonkers to be honest.

Can't see SOB getting the nod at 7...fetcher / classic 7 required.

Suspect that Ferris and SOB will fight it out for the 6 jersey.

Tox56

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Can't see SOB getting the nod at 7...fetcher / classic 7 required.

And so you wouldn't bring him because..?

GerM

Dan Lydiate will have a huge say in the 6 jersey. He's Gatland's golden boy and the engine in the Welsh pack. If I was picking the team tomorrow, I'd have him in it. He's an excellent player.

The bloke I'd have in contention with him is Ferris and I just can't see him being fit for a 10 game tour after a season. He's made of glass these days. 14 games for Ulster is the most he has managed in a season over the last 4 years. Of all the last 3 seasons, he has been significantly injured by the end of season and missed out on Ireland's summer games.

Kearney is an excellent player and will surely tour but I think Gavin Hastings and JPR Williams might just have something to say about delivering the greatest performances of a full back in a Lions jersey.

Jame Gumb

Tox56 wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Can't see SOB getting the nod at 7...fetcher / classic 7 required.

And so you wouldn't bring him because..?

Who said anything about not bringing him?

I just said that I didn't see him getting the nod at open side in the Test side.

Tox56

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Who said anything about not bringing him?

I just said that I didn't see him getting the nod at open side in the Test side.

What I'm on about is the suggestion that SOB isn't a "classic 7", I don't know what more SOB could have done in that NZ tour to end that discussion.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

What I'm on about is the suggestion that SOB isn't a "classic 7", I don't know what more SOB could have done in that NZ tour to end that discussion.

Or with Leinster all year. SOB has turned into the definition of a poaching 7, despite what George Hook would have you believe

Sindri

Jame Gumb wrote: »

European Player of the Year Rob Kearney left out?

The man who arguably delivered the greatest fullback performance in the history of the Lions during the 2nd Test in Pretoria?

I wouldn't like to see him defend against Australia tbh. Just about every other facet of his game is excellent but his defense/tackling, which is the most important requirement to play fullback. If I was picking the team I would be apprehensive about him or if I was his club coach I'd have quite the talk with him. I'd expect him to be put into situations against Australia that would show up his defense, particularly in the first test.

shuffol

Whilst defence is probably the weakest part of Kearneys game its hard to recall many incidents where its really cost his team, he's by no means a liability.

Hagz

I wouldn't say defence is the most important facet of a fullback's game. Just one of the many responsibilities. The best full-back's in the world i.e. Dagg and Beale aren't renowned for their defensive capabilities. Foden and Halfpenny are better defenders than Kearney, but I'd still have him ahead of them for his ariel skills and his attacking capabilities. Although not by much. If Halfpenny gets the nod it will probably be due to his kicking. Kearney is a weak defender though.

RoundBox11

Sindri wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see him defend against Australia tbh. Just about every other facet of his game is excellent but his defense/tackling, which is the most important requirement to play fullback. If I was picking the team I would be apprehensive about him or if I was his club coach I'd have quite the talk with him. I'd expect him to be put into situations against Australia that would show up his defense, particularly in the first test.

Tbh, i would've thought fullback would be the place to put your worst defender. They're defensive weaknesses can be covered up by good positioning.

Anyway Kearney's defence is by no means bad enough to take away the fact that he's the best fullback in the NH at the moment, if not in the whole world.

Jame Gumb

My own view is that Kearney is the stand out fullback in the world right now...he's a man that the Aussies would fear

PhatPiggins

Jame Gumb wrote: »

My own view is that Kearney is the stand out fullback in the world right now...he's a man that the Aussies would fear

They won't kick it too him much and that would nullify about 60% of his game.

My own thoughts on the starting 15 would be that if Sexton starts at 10 then there s no need to play Halfpenny but I could easily see Gatland plump for a running 10 like Laidlaw or Priestland which mean Halfpenny would be needed for the place kicking.