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So I was stopped for using my mobile phone....

  • 23-07-2012 1:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭


    ... But I wasn't ...

    So I was driving to work this morning and a squad car comes up behind my with the blues on and then flashes me to pull over. I pull in on a junction (not very safely as I pointed out to the Gard) and he asked me for my license. Duly obliged. He asked my is my bluetooth kit not working. I tell him it is. He asks me why was on on my phone and I say I wasn't. He says he saw me on my phone as I turned from the XX to YY. I tell him I sorry I wasn't. He proceeds to take details and askes me to produce my insurance at a local station, I actually had it in the car and gave it to him there and then. He then tells me I will be receiving a FPNF, I ask him what is that and he tells me it is a Fixed Penatly Notice Fine. I tell ok but I have a dash cam in my car and I may decide to dispute the charge. I further tell him it records voice and forward video and if I was on my phone it will have me speaking in the car. He askes me does it record internal video and I tell him it does not.

    We parted company in a cordial manner...

    Do you think he will follow this one up

    Should I take it to court.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 335 ✭✭dvae


    i suppose its a bit late now, but why did you not show the guard the call
    logs on your phone?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,691 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    If you don't pay the fine it will end up in court. Dispute it there or try calling the Garda when he calms down in a few days, it's easy to represent yourself you don't need a solicitor.
    If you want to get the jump on him, summons him to court before he summons you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭vandriver


    Were you by any chance checking an email or text?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    vandriver wrote: »
    Were you by any chance checking an email or text?

    No, and the Gard clearly implies he saw me on my phone by asking if my bluetooth is working.

    I read the law it is an offence to have a phone in your hand or cradled by any part of your body


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    dvae wrote: »
    i suppose its a bit late now, but why did you not show the guard the call
    logs on your phone?

    I only thought of that after myself so I took a screen shot.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Sorry mods I see I posted in the wrong section please move if you wish


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Its will probably be your word against the guard now .

    Here is the fine:
    Driving while using a mobile phone: 2 penalty points and fixed-charge of €60; 4 penalty points and possible €2,000 fine on conviction in court for non-payment of fixed charge

    So you could contest the fine and go to court ......but it could be costlier .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Its will probably be your word against the guard now .

    Here is the fine:


    So you could contest the fine and go to court ......but it could be costlier .


    Well I have the dash cam audio & video. But that is my dilemma, take the 2 or risk it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Call log, from phone, backed up with a print off of your call log from your carrier's website etc. If ou get a bill, in the mean time, bring that with the itemised portion.

    Do not wait for the summons though, in a day or two call the garda and explain that you have all of these and can prove that you were not on the phone, stating that you would rather not have to waste time off work going to court with it, if he would like to examine your documentation first.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Call log, from phone, backed up with a print off of your call log from your carrier's website etc. If ou get a bill, in the mean time, bring that with the itemised portion.

    Do not wait for the summons though, in a day or two call the garda and explain that you have all of these and can prove that you were not on the phone, stating that you would rather not have to waste time off work going to court with it, if he would like to examine your documentation first.


    Thanks for the info but I didn't get a name or station number etc so I will probably have to wait until I get a summons.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Call log, from phone, backed up with a print off of your call log from your carrier's website etc. If ou get a bill, in the mean time, bring that with the itemised portion.

    Do not wait for the summons though, in a day or two call the garda and explain that you have all of these and can prove that you were not on the phone, stating that you would rather not have to waste time off work going to court with it, if he would like to examine your documentation first.

    You can do all this , but it may mean nothing ...........The offence is ' holding a mobile phone while driving '


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    good point....you may have to suck it up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    You can do all this , but it may mean nothing ...........The offence is ' holding a mobile phone while driving '

    Then the garda will be asked, did you see the phone anywhere in the car at the time?
    To be fair, you hold a phone to use it. If the OP can prove that there was no usage, when the garda pulled him over then he has a strong case. If the garda can not recall even seeing the phone then it is even stronger.

    I would fight getting 2 points, if all I was doing was scratching my ear or something. The garda is a person and a person can make mistakes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    why on earth would the Gard say he couldn't recall seeing the phone when he has charged the op with the offence!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    corktina wrote: »
    why on earth would the Gard say he couldn't recall seeing the phone when he has charged the op with the offence!

    He never said that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,520 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Moved to motors


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Then the garda will be asked, did you see the phone anywhere in the car at the time?
    To be fair, you hold a phone to use it. If the OP can prove that there was no usage, when the garda pulled him over then he has a strong case. If the garda can not recall even seeing the phone then it is even stronger.

    I would fight getting 2 points, if all I was doing was scratching my ear or something. The garda is a person and a person can make mistakes.

    The poster above did :

    I see 2 options :
    1. Pay €60 and accept 2 points
    2. Don't pay and work on the consequences

    Your decision , may be determined by the number of penalty points you have already accumulated .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,405 ✭✭✭Dartz


    corktina wrote: »
    good point....you may have to suck it up
    There is something woefully wrong with the law when this is an option. Especially if OP can prove they did not commit the offence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    I am going to upload a video on this give me 20 minutes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    cram1971 wrote: »
    He never said that
    yes he did "If the garda can not recall even seeing the phone then it is even stronger"

    :confused:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭dingding


    How could someone prove that they were not using the phone by showing the call records / call logs.

    Many people have 2 phones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Dartz wrote: »
    There is something woefully wrong with the law when this is an option. Especially if OP can prove they did not commit the offence.

    but can he prove he did not have his phone in his hand? Probably not, and the Judge would take the Gards word for it if it was the Gards word against the OP. Sad but true


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    dingding wrote: »
    How could someone prove that they were not using the phone by showing the call records / call logs.

    Many people have 2 phones.


    Thats a good point never thought about that


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    cram1971 wrote: »
    Thats a good point never thought about that

    Most people do not have 2 phones. If you come in with your phone records and prove that you do not use a phone, for work, the judge is going to believe that.

    Also I said that the Garda is going to be shown proof that the OP was not using the phone. He has stated that he saw the OP using the phone. It will then change to the OP holding a phone. Question will then be, did you actually see a phone in his hand given that he has shown that he was not using one? Upon stopping the OP, did you then see the phone on the person of the OP or did you , for certain, notice the presence of a phone in the car. It is all about casting doubt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭George Dalton


    In my opinion phone records will prove nothing. Phones are used for far more than calls or texts these days. If a Guard sees someone using a phone while driving then who is to say they weren't checking Boards or Facebook rather than making or receiving a call?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭teddybear178


    I live in the province of Ontario in Canada, Toronto to be specific. We have a law that prevents holding a mobile phone while operating a motor vehicle as well. An OAP that does not own a mobile phone was charged under this law. It made the TV news and the papers. The police were forced to do an about face and issue an apology to the gentleman. If the OP did not have his phone in his hand he should challenge the fixed penalty.

    The image below is of an RCMP constable in Chilliwack, British Columbia nabbing mobile phone users. No red jacket or horse for the Mountie this time.


    rcmp-martell-dangerous-driving-dressup.jpeg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,493 ✭✭✭RedXIV


    In my opinion phone records will prove nothing. Phones are used for far more than calls or texts these days. If a Guard sees someone using a phone while driving then who is to say they weren't checking Boards or Facebook rather than making or receiving a call?

    Data records are also on bills these days. Including time of usage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Ok so here is the video I have stopped it before he gets into taking my details and to shorten it a bit I have edited out a bit while he was behind me.

    I would like to take note of a few things

    1. The distance from me to the squad car as I made the turn where he said he saw me on the phone.
    2. All you can hear until I start talking to the Garda is my radio
    3. His first question 'Is my handsfree not working'. insinuating he thought he saw me talking on my phone not texting emailing surfing the net etc.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    No way I'd accept the 2 points. I'd rather fight and lose than 'suck it up'.

    Would you not get better advice over in the legal issues forum?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,661 ✭✭✭Voodoomelon


    Can I ask why he thought you were on the phone? Were you scratching your head or something?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,815 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Call log, from phone, backed up with a print off of your call log from your carrier's website etc. If ou get a bill, in the mean time, bring that with the itemised portion.
    Most people do not have 2 phones. If you come in with your phone records and prove that you do not use a phone, for work, the judge is going to believe that.
    The call log on the phone can be easily edited, and the call log from the service provider only shows outgoing calls. Not to mention that there is no way of proving that you don't have a second phone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Can I ask why he thought you were on the phone? Were you scratching your head or something?

    I don't know I didn't ask him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,691 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    cram1971 wrote: »
    I don't know I didn't ask him.

    It was pretty obvious you took that corner like you were driving a school bus. Another wide boy coming the other direction and it would have been a tango moment.

    Not sure if the video evidence would go your way, maybe it's just the angle of the cam?:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    It was pretty obvious you took that corner like you were driving a school bus. Another wide boy coming the other direction and it would have been a tango moment.

    Not sure if the video evidence would go your way, maybe it's just the angle of the cam?:)

    Maybe a bit wide maybe that is why he stopped me but

    1. I had a clear view of anything coming
    2. It is a pretty big jeep.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Jaysus just realised the video shows me breaking the speed limit :eek:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    If his view of you was through the back windscreen , could he have mistakenly seen the dash-cam on the same line as your left ear .- then thinking you were on the mobile .

    Is the dash-cam at same level as your ear ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    In my opinion phone records will prove nothing. Phones are used for far more than calls or texts these days. If a Guard sees someone using a phone while driving then who is to say they weren't checking Boards or Facebook rather than making or receiving a call?

    My phone and bills also show date usage


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭coolisin


    Who knows OP, only the guard can answer as too what he thought you were doing.
    Id try contest it i think alright.

    I dunno if you ring the phone company can they send you info on what calls you received? My data usage shows up on the bill as date and time.
    But your phone can be downloading things while you ain't using it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭dingding


    cram1971 wrote: »
    Jaysus just realised the video shows me breaking the speed limit :eek:

    And crossing over the solid white line a couple of times as well. :D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭IMightKnow


    Hi OP,

    This happened to a friend of mine 2 years ago as well

    He was driving along when a Garda car beckoned him to pull over. They told him they saw him using his phone. He had not been doing so at all. He offered to show them the call log and was told that he "could have deleted the call". They issued him a fine.

    He contacted phone provider who said they could only issue his outgoing calls not incoming.

    He talked to a family friend of a friend who was in the guards who told him it was going to be a case of his word versus the guards and that the court wouldn't believe a young males word over the guards.

    The fine had at then gone up to 90e and he just paid it and got the points


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭franksm


    Jeez - I'd be fighting that rather than rolling over and paying the fine. The video is pretty clear, there's just radio chat even after you have stopped the car. Depends on whether or not the judge would accept such video as evidence in the first place


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,113 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Call log, from phone, backed up with a print off of your call log from your carrier's website etc. If ou get a bill, in the mean time, bring that with the itemised portion.

    Bills don't show inbound calls....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    That video isn't really much evidence at all since it doesn't show what the OP was doing. It could easily be argued that just becuase he isn't chatting away doesn't mean he wasn't holding the phone in his hand getting ready to make a call, or even fumbling through his contacts, or dialling and waiting for an answer, or just listening to voice mail. Being 'on the phone' could mean any one of those so in that regard it's pretty weak evidence of innocence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    franksm wrote: »
    Jeez - I'd be fighting that rather than rolling over and paying the fine. The video is pretty clear, there's just radio chat even after you have stopped the car. Depends on whether or not the judge would accept such video as evidence in the first place

    So you would prefer a hefty legal fee , rather than €60 fine


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    So you would prefer a hefty legal fee , rather than €60 fine
    I wouldn't use a solicitor if I decide to contest the charge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭firefly08


    OP, fight it. It doesn't matter that your video doesn't "prove" that you were not on the phone. If you can convince the judge that the Garda probably made a mistake then you will probably win - I think the video indicates that he was mistaken. It's a pity you didn't get him to commit to saying exactly what he thought you were doing, since if he had accused you of talking or listening on the phone you would make him look like a tool in court. But still, "on the phone" certainly sounds like he thought you were on a call...that's what I think it would mean to most people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭teddybear178


    Challenging a fixed penalty does not necessarily equate to a hefty legal fee. These matters can be dealt with by the individual, no need to hire a barrister. a morning or afternoon off work.

    I cannot speak to the process in the ROI but I have challenged fixed penalty offences here in Canada and have won. On other occasions I lost my case but the penalty assessed by the court was LESS than the fixed penalty in the first place. I love how the police, or gardai, quote an astronomical penalty should you challenge and lose. I belief the ridiculous sum stated is to frighten people away to the courts so the government can get the money faster and easier. The only time I've seen someone charged more than the fixed penalty was when he was disrespectful in court and treated the whole thing like a lark.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭readytosnap


    you need to find out the station the garda was from and contact the super and explain to him the situation, there is a good chance he can clear it up for you, a similar incident happened to my daughter whilst she was driving my car ( she was 20 driving a nice bmw) and a garda pulled her over and said that she seen her using her mobile, the garda was parked across the road at the time of "seeing her" anyway she told her she was gonna be summonsed and was getting points and a fine, i made my daughter write to the super explaining that there was a hands free kit fitted in the vehicle and that there is no way she would be using her phone and she was in fact scrathing her head at the time, the matter was resolved internally (at the station) and she received a letter from the super explaining that the matter has been resolved ( i cant remember the exact wording ) and no further action was required on her behalf, matter closed. There is no way you should let this idiot away with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 124 ✭✭Sempai


    Were you actually holding the device prior to being stopped? I'd like to hear the rest of the audio as there could be more to this. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭cram1971


    Sempai wrote: »
    Were you actually holding the device prior to being stopped? I'd like to hear the rest of the audio as there could be more to this. :)

    I was just driving along don't think I did anything like scratched my ear picked my nose or anything that would look like using a mobile phone.



    There is not much more to, it he asked me if I am denying the charge and I sad yes also checks name insurance etc . I am not putting it up as it gives my personal details


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