RTE show on doping- Faster, Higher, Stronger

sideswipe

On RTE 1 now, well worth a look.

nerraw1111

sideswipe wrote: »

On RTE 1 now, well worth a look.

Excellent so far.

TRR

Technically Ian oriordan should be banned for 2 years and not allowed to run aai races

gerard65

TRR wrote: »

Technically Ian oriordan should be banned for 2 years and not allowed to run aai races

He did'nt take the EPO in the end. Was looking forward to the results and if there would be any difference. I think we were somewhat led up the garden path:(

plodder

What about Geraldine Hendricken? Still blaming the supplements, which is fair enough, but you'd think the lesson she'd be preaching is to stear clear of supplements.

TRR

gerard65 wrote: »

He did'nt take the EPO in the end. Was looking forward to the results and if there would be any difference. I think we were somewhat led up the garden path:(

Yes wasn't too sure about this I was interrupted. I thought he had taken one dose but you are probably right. I was actually amazed moynagh considered even putting him on epo after his initial readings. His Ht levels were 47/48. Higher than Colin griffins who was living in an altitude house.

wrstan

Was anyone tempted to reconsider or ditch their next protein shake after watching the programme?

(That's actually a serious question!)

OMARS_COMING_

I missed it,i hope its on the RTE player.

Krusty_Clown

OMARS_COMING_ wrote: »

I missed it,i hope its on the RTE player.

It is.

tunguska

plodder wrote: »

What about Geraldine Hendricken? Still blaming the supplements, which is fair enough, but you'd think the lesson she'd be preaching is to stear clear of supplements.

Yeah the overriding impression I got from her was "Doping? Little ol me? why all I did was take a supplement innocently purchased over the internet. Im not to blame, other people are, those devious supplement manufacturers ruined my career"
Felt a bit concerned about Martin Fagan though, he looked like a broken man. Hope he's getting some help for his obvious distress.

pconn062

tunguska wrote: »

Felt a bit concerned about Martin Fagan though, he looked like a broken man. Hope he's getting some help for his obvious distress.

Yeah, he still seems in a rather fragile mental state, although it was good to see him down the club just jogging around. Hard not to feel sorry for the guy.

christeb

Does anyone think IOR was seriously considering going on a course of EPO? Insurance wouldn't touch it, it'd never be allowed. I felt that part of the programme played us for idiots.

Decent enough show but I can't warm to IOR as a presenter. He's got no charisma for TV.

pconn062

Trek1000 wrote: »

Really? Had he not been caught he prob would have been running in London as a doper.

Easy to feel sorry for yourself when you have been caught.

Also if he just owned up to what actually went on maybe he would feel better.

I personally believe he wanted to be caught, wanted to be found out as an escape from it all. Maybe you don't believe that and that's fair enough.

dev123

I turned off after he was advised against taking EPO.

In the advertising for the programme we were lead up the garden path:

"And in attempt to get inside the mind of a cheat, Ian undertakes to go on a course of performance enhancing drugs. In doing so, he discovers that the results might be more dramatic than he could ever have imagined".

What results? His non-doped blood test results? The dramatic conclusion that drugs are bad?

Fair enough EPO could have potentially harmed him but it was the intentional misleading programme info that annoyed me.

I had to check the Sky box to make sure I wasn't watching TV3

Gringo78

What I thought struck most of a chord with me was one of the anti-doping guys saying maybe we should be going down the line of criminal offence for doping, that this might be more of a detterent. Basically doping is fraud & theft - you are stealing prize money or sponsorship opportunity away from another athlete and thats as much of a crime as stealing money from a post office. A prison sentance would be much more of a detterent.

Taking the example of Fagan, a 2 year ban from athletics is not really that much of a punishment - he was already not making any money from athletics, if he failed to qulaify for the olympics his career was pretty much over anyway so what exactly has changed for him? He still gets to run every day if he wants? The potential pay off from doping was huge in comparison to the penalty for getting caught. Those who say his doping was a cry for help and that he wanted to get caught - if the penalty had been a 2 year prison term, would he have resorted to doping as his cry for help or would he have instead gone and actually sought help?

I didn't like the way Fagn said last night that his doping hurt no one but himself - thats not true, every time an athlete dopes it hurts the credibility of the sport and makes it tougher for other struggling irish athletes to get sponsorship etc.

woodchopper

Trek1000 wrote: »

Really? Had he not been caught he prob would have been running in London as a doper.

Easy to feel sorry for yourself when you have been caught.

Also if he just owned up to what actually went on maybe he would feel better.

In fairness Nic Martin did hold his hand up when he was caught!

wrstan

What's the bets that IOR will have a "reveal all" biography of Fagan out for the Christmas market?

Apologies for the cynicism, but from IOR's first article in the Irish Times (which was a well written and interesting piece) I felt that he was lining himself up for a book deal. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that, I haven't worked out my opinion on that yet!

wrstan

Trek1000 wrote: »

Well as in ‘interesting’ you mean totally one sided?

Well yes, I suppose! I mean if he was going to be as David Walsh to Lance Armstrong, he'd hardly be putting himself in pole position to be Fagan's official ghost writer! I still thought it was a worthwhile piece though.

Clum

wrstan wrote: »

What's the bets that IOR will have a "reveal all" biography of Fagan out for the Christmas market?

Definitely not. Fagan hasn't achieved anything worth writing about. No international medals or titles, just a stint in the States, a few national titles and an injury plagued marathon career. A man can only spend so long talking about his reasons for doping and a whole book on it is too much!

If Fagan ever comes back to the sport and goes on to win something big like the Euro Cross Country or something maybe then there'd be an angle for a book.

As for IOR's program last night, I got nothing out of it. Waste of time. If he didn't put somebody on EPO as a test he should at least have had stats on before and after dosages and related performance improvements. Some lab somewhere must have them.

Enduro

woodchopper wrote: »

In fairness Nic Martin did hold his hand up when he was caught!

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Martin Fagan is a drugs cheat. That's the simple fact with regard to him.

AFTER he was caught, he "confessed" with a story which, handily enough, made him appear in a sympathetic light to the gullable. If he confessed before he was caught, then he might have some credibility. But that isn't the case.

The tolerance of cheaters on boards, and indeed in Ireland in general, as long as the cheater is "one of our own" is something I find pretty repulsive.

Enduro

Clum wrote: »

As for IOR's program last night, I got nothing out of it. Waste of time. If he didn't put somebody on EPO as a test he should at least have had stats on before and after dosages and related performance improvements. Some lab somewhere must have them.

Some interesting experiments then...

Relatively recent article on Testosterone

Older, but very interesting article on several PEDs, with EPO standing out.

Some pretty clear illustrations of what advantages the likes of Fagan gets when he cheats.

ecoli

Enduro wrote: »

The tolerance of cheaters on boards, and indeed in Ireland in general, as long as the cheater is "one of our own" is something I find pretty repulsive.

This has been done to death in the threads early this year regarding this.

There was pretty much a general consensus across the board at the time that no one felt that a 2 year ban was long enough and that life bans need to be brought in (Personally I completely agree with this and liked the idea of making drug cheating a criminal offence)

Not one person talked about a possibility of returning to the sport after his ban (expect the previous post with regards to the plausibility of a book)

I think you mistook tolerance for cheaters (of which I have seen none really)
and general concern for a human beings welfare

Woddle

I turned it off halfway through but what I did watch was The race that shocked the world if you get a chance to watch it, do. It's about the 100m final in the 1988 Olympics and performance enhancing drugs. Very enjoyable.

nerraw1111

Woddle wrote: »

I turned it off halfway through but what I did watch was The race that shocked the world if you get a chance to watch it, do. It's about the 100m final in the 1988 Olympics and performance enhancing drugs. Very enjoyable.

Excellent programme. Christie's reaction: "I don't give a ****."

Ian O'Riordan was on Pat Kenny this morning. Worth a listen back. Pat Kenny brought up this story, which was dismissed as a non story. http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/olympics-2012/irish-news/irish-olympic-medal-hope-robert-heffernan-gets-coaching-advice-from-a-drug-cheat-3172608.html

woodchopper

Enduro wrote: »

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Martin Fagan is a drugs cheat. That's the simple fact with regard to him.

AFTER he was caught, he "confessed" with a story which, handily enough, made him appear in a sympathetic light to the gullable. If he confessed before he was caught, then he might have some credibility. But that isn't the case.

The tolerance of cheaters on boards, and indeed in Ireland in general, as long as the cheater is "one of our own" is something I find pretty repulsive.

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning

I dont think you fully grasped the dry humour of my last post sunshine!

Congrats on winning the ART performance of the year, well deserved

Regards,
Senior Analyst Woodchopper

woodchopper

Trek1000 wrote: »

Totally agree


Also he did not tell the full story.

He continued to lie in my opinion.

The issue about EPO having to be kept in a fridge etc. Only taking it once and testing positive. Are we expected to believe this? The missed tests over the years. Running away to a different location to avoid testers etc. The list goes on and on.

I thought you were banned from this forum Nic?

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

I thought you were banned from this forum Nic?

you twigged the argument to?

Mod: Trek1000 banned for duplicate account

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

you twigged the argument to?

Mod: Trek1000 banned for duplicate account

A thank you wouldnt go amiss. What would the mods do without detective chopper. So long Nic outfoxed once again

walshb

ecoli wrote: »

This has been done to death in the threads early this year regarding this.

There was pretty much a general consensus across the board at the time that no one felt that a 2 year ban was long enough and that life bans need to be brought in (Personally I completely agree with this and liked the idea of making drug cheating a criminal offence)

Not one person talked about a possibility of returning to the sport after his ban (expect the previous post with regards to the plausibility of a book)

I think you mistook tolerance for cheaters (of which I have seen none really)
and general concern for a human beings welfare

Spot on. The way some people post on here about a person who dopes you would swear the person was after raping or murdering someone. Calm down the tone.

Enduro

woodchopper wrote: »

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning

I dont think you fully grasped the dry humour of my last post sunshine!

If I'd grasped it I wouldn't have asked what the hell it was supposed to mean now, would I?... no smilies for the clueless like myself means its open to all sorts of interpretations.

Enduro

walshb wrote: »

Spot on. The way some people post on here about a person who dopes you would swear the person was after raping or murdering someone. Calm down the tone.

I regard a drugs cheat as being a cheater. What is hysterical about that?

gerard65

Two things which got to me from the program was Coughlan's description of EPO and how it was like pouring suger into a patrol tank - turning your blood into a thick goo - that should make someone think twice.
And these guys buying supplements/drugs over the internet, jebus, you could be putting some crap into your body, are people really that gullible:eek:

nerraw1111

gerard65 wrote: »

are people really that gullible:eek:

I would say no.

the_real_lamp

Just watched the programme, it was well done. Hendreckin still protesting her innocence or ignorance is a little hard to believe.

Also thought the bit about rugby was interesting. Just looking at the size of schoolboy rugby players (and intercounty minor footballers) today, they are huge for their age. Anecdotally speaking, I would say the vast majority are on substances that an athlete couldn't take.

sconhome

Woddle wrote: »

I turned it off halfway through but what I did watch was The race that shocked the world if you get a chance to watch it, do. It's about the 100m final in the 1988 Olympics and performance enhancing drugs. Very enjoyable.

You might enjoy the book "Run, swim, throw cheat"

shels4ever

Enduro wrote: »

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Martin Fagan is a drugs cheat. That's the simple fact with regard to him.

AFTER he was caught, he "confessed" with a story which, handily enough, made him appear in a sympathetic light to the gullable. If he confessed before he was caught, then he might have some credibility. But that isn't the case.

The tolerance of cheaters on boards, and indeed in Ireland in general, as long as the cheater is "one of our own" is something I find pretty repulsive.

As a sports fan I would hope that martin got a life time ban, but as a person you can see the human side of every story, People do make mistakes and life does go on.
I don't think people on boards have a tolerance for cheating, they expect propper bans for cheats but in the end of the day better to be a happy banned drug cheat than a dirty unhappy drug cheat.
In all aspects in life people have made mistakes and done things they regret and would change if possible, I dont know Martin from Adam and his story could be all crap - But if some good can come form this it may highlight problems in the sport and ensure that furhter generation don't go down the same path.

Gringo78

shels4ever wrote: »

I don't think people on boards have a tolerance for cheating, they expect propper bans for cheats but in the end of the day better to be a happy banned drug cheat than a dirty unhappy drug cheat.

Further to my earlier point, I do believe it might make a difference if athletes who were caught doping were referred to as thiefs or criminals as opposed to 'cheats' - 'cheats' is a little too light a word IMO.

shels4ever

Gringo78 wrote: »

Further to my earlier point, I do believe it might make a difference if athletes who were caught doping were referred to as thiefs or criminals as opposed to 'cheats' - 'cheats' is a little too light a word IMO.

I wonder has any race director ever tried to recover prize money from a drug cheat/criminal?

YFlyer

shels4ever wrote: »

I wonder has any race director ever tried to recover prize money from a drug cheat/criminal?

Chambers to the IAAF and UK Athletics

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/5058204.stm

BeepBeep67

Watched this on the treadie this evening, IOR could have cut to the chase on his own EPO 'experiment' alright.
The Kinetica piece was interesting for me as I use some of the recovery products and gels - would make you more comfortable as an elite knowing their stringent controls.
Was Griffin lifting in his piece

pauldoo

Woddle wrote: »

I turned it off halfway through but what I did watch was The race that shocked the world if you get a chance to watch it, do. It's about the 100m final in the 1988 Olympics and performance enhancing drugs. Very enjoyable.

good call, watched it today, really good show

Pride Fighter

I enjoyed the show myself, but found Tony Ward equating the likes of creatine and whey protein to cheating a bit cringeworthy. A lot of people have no idea of nutrition and supplements, there are so many legal supplements out there that are perfectly fine yet have heard people calling others 'roid users' for having a whey protein shake.

Clum

Woddle wrote: »

I turned it off halfway through but what I did watch was The race that shocked the world if you get a chance to watch it, do. It's about the 100m final in the 1988 Olympics and performance enhancing drugs. Very enjoyable.

This program is on BBC4 at 10.30 tonight (Thursday). Well worth a watch.

MrCreosote

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I enjoyed the show myself, but found Tony Ward equating the likes of creatine and whey protein to cheating a bit cringeworthy. A lot of people have no idea of nutrition and supplements, there are so many legal supplements out there that are perfectly fine yet have heard people calling others 'roid users' for having a whey protein shake.

For an elite those supplements are pointless.

Not cheating to take them- just silly.

1- they are of no benefit
2- there's a high risk of them being contaminated. Plenty of positive tests from contaminated supplements

maryishairy

christeb wrote: »

Does anyone think IOR was seriously considering going on a course of EPO? Insurance wouldn't touch it, it'd never be allowed. I felt that part of the programme played us for idiots.

I'd have to agree. There was zero chance of Ian O' Riordan ever taking EPO for purposes of an RTE documentary.

1. RTE wouldn't allow it (for obvious reasons).
2. Dr. Niall Moyna and Co. at DCU would never subscribe EPO to Ian O' Riordan (for obvious reasons).
3. Ian O' Riordan is an intelligent man. He's been around athletics all his life. He's seen all the horror stories brought about by drug doping. He would never put his health or his life in jeopardy for the entertainment of the viewing public.

All other aspects of the documentary were very good. Well done Ian O' Riordan.

dna_leri

MrCreosote wrote: »

For an elite those supplements are pointless.

Not cheating to take them- just silly.

1- they are of no benefit
2- there's a high risk of them being contaminated. Plenty of positive tests from contaminated supplements

You really think Whey Protein and Creatine supplements have no benefit for elite athletes? Which recent studies are you basing this on?

High risk of contaminated supplements - says who? The cheater junkies?

Most elite athletes take supplements from reputable brands and would not agree with your risk-benefit analysis. Sure if you are buying supplement X from unknown manufactures but the big-business suppliers have too much to lose if their product was contaminated.

BobMac104

Sure griffin had a big tub of stuff on his table in the altitude house. They majority take suppliments be it whey, creatine , vitamins, oils, the works. Lets face it if the'll sleep in a tent thats so manky that their wives wont sleep in, they are gonna try everything else thats legal.

MrCreosote

dna_leri wrote: »

You really think Whey Protein and Creatine supplements have no benefit for elite athletes? Which recent studies are you basing this on?

High risk of contaminated supplements - says who? The cheater junkies?

Most elite athletes take supplements from reputable brands and would not agree with your risk-benefit analysis. Sure if you are buying supplement X from unknown manufactures but the big-business suppliers have too much to lose if their product was contaminated.

No benefit. The onus is on the manufacturers to prove they are of benefit. They have no evidence for anything bar creatine in explosive sports, caffeine and maybe bicarb for some events. Just because something's in a big glossy package with "Power", "Maxx" and "Endurance" written all over it doesn't mean it's any good. It's just protein at the end of the day. You only need so much- exceeding that amount isn't necessarily going to give you anything extra.

If you say-they're cheaper than buying chicken or beef, then fair enough.

As for contaminated supplements- so many positive tests for methylhexanemine- Jamaican sprinters, SA rugby, the winner of the Comrades marathon this year. All contaminated supplements.

MrCreosote

If you're bored, everything you could possibly want to know about supplements is here:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/

Cuts through a lot of the bullsh*t and marketing claims.

BeepBeep67

MrCreosote wrote: »

If you're bored, everything you could possibly want to know about supplements is here:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/

Cuts through a lot of the bullsh*t and marketing claims.

I was looking forward to reading this and then I seen

This webpage is brought to you by Gatorade

:rolleyes:

14qgrctp8yfv60

The promise of a chance to see the effects of EPO was the really appealing part of this show and it was a joke that at the closing minutes we find he couldn't do it ......BBC4 Race That Shocked the World - this is the answer to the failed experiment and the results are off the scales for improvement -RTE missed a chance to be really interesting - surely he was freelance taking on the documentary and some sort of disclaimer and indemnity could have been done.