Accident image, who's to blame?

rocky

Punto was going straight (yellow line), signalling left

Primera was turning right (orange line).

ka-boom!

primera 100%

meercat

primera totally wrong

colm_mcm

Primera. Indicators don't actually mean anything. neither do headlights


Youre turning right, I'm coming towards you, i flash my lights, you turn, I crash into you. You're wrong

Not that I'd do that or anything.

Crackle

I would have to say Primera too.

meercat

rocky wrote: »

signalling left

just means his indicators were working,thats all

jimmyw

If the punto was going straight, why was it signalling left?.Primera is still wrong.

-Corkie-

Primera again.

colm_mcm

meercat wrote: »

just means his indicators were working,thats all

Or, it being a Punto, he hit the brakes.

cichlid child

Primera
Which one were you in

juan.kerr

Almost happened me years ago, turning right, the oncoming car indicating. Made it with inches to spare.

Always wait until the oncoming car isactually turning or turned now.

Marcusm

Wouldn't be surprised to have some allocation of the responsibility to the Punto driver. LIability doesn't need to be 50/50 or 100/0, can be in between.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised to have some allocation of the responsibility to the Punto driver. LIability doesn't need to be 50/50 or 100/0, can be in between.

yeah but in this case it's 100/0

Tails142

lesson 101: never believe anyones indicators when pulling out at a t-junction

just got schooled

COYW

Primera, Punto has the right of way. Primera should have waited for the Punto to turn before moving. I get this at the end of my estate all the time, as there is another left turn 20 metres after mine. This could end up taking some time with the insurance companies. Neither party covered themselves in driving glory here. Liability will bounce back and forth on this one.

Del2005

jimmyw wrote: »

If the punto was going straight, why was it signalling left?.Primera is still wrong.

Auto cancel didn't work or they didn't turn wheel far enough for it to cancel, happens sometimes. Or the Punto might have wanted to turn and changed their mind.

Doesn't really matter as the Primera is in the wrong. They didn't follow our most basic driving law, give way to the right.

That's the reason why I never pull out till the vehicle has started to turn.

MugMugs

Primera hands down.

Indicators on mean jack all really!

EDIT: In saying that, with the damage to the rear of the Nissan, I've seen cases take split liability.

F-Stop

Tails142 wrote: »

lesson 101: never believe anyones indicators when pulling out at a t-junction

Or roundabout,
Or on Motorway,
Or on a straight with no turn-offs,

That doesn't mean folk shouldn't use them to 'indicate' their intentions (that means before you make your move).

Henry Ford III

Primera driver shouldn't have started the right turn until such time as the Punto driver had actually turned left imho.

Marcusm

bluewolf wrote: »

yeah but in this case it's 100/0

That's a matter for a judge if it goes that far. There have been a number of successful cases in similar circumstances. Factors to be considered included whether the Punto was not only signalling to turn left but appeared to be going slowly enough to take the turn. There have been a number of outcomes of the courts accepting the Punto as having contributed negligently to the accident. Unfortunately in Ireland, these remain unreported (as DC cases most are). There are a number of cases in the UK which would be of persuasive precedence.

Only an opinion, we all have one.

Poulgorm

The driver of the Punto misled the other driver as to his intentions: any fair minded judge (and most of them are) will hold the Punto driver partially responsible. And rightly so.

You just cannot signal that you intend to go one way and then do something else. If you do that and it results in an accident, you cannot blame the other driver 100%. Morally, you can't, anyway.

bladespin

Poulgorm wrote: »

The driver of the Punto misled the other driver as to his intentions: any fair minded judge (and most of them are) will hold the Punto driver partially responsible. And rightly so.

You just cannot signal that you intend to go one way and then do something else. If you do that and it results in an accident, you cannot blame the other driver 100%. Morally, you can't, anyway.

Wouldn't believe that, any fair minded judge will find for the driver already on the road, not the one joining, I've never heard of a court finding in favour of a driver joining a carriageway against one already in it (that's not to say there hasn't been the odd batty judgement).

Indicators don't mean anything more than a signal of intent, not a commitment, as said before it mightn't have cancelled, driver changed mind etc.

carbon nanotube

rocky wrote: »

Punto was going straight (yellow line), signalling left

Primera was turning right (orange line).

ka-boom!

why signal left if going ahead straight............

Paparazzo

carbon nanotube wrote: »

why signal left if going ahead straight............

Lots of people do it. Indicator mightn't auto cancel and the driver didn't know, could be taking the next left and put the indicator on too early, or as colm said, being a punto, he could have hit the brakes

You shouldn't drive out in front of anyone if the gap isn't big enough. If I trusted other peoples indicators, I doubt I'd ever make it through a roundabout without hitting someone.

Bigcheeze

I hate the way people having minor accidents feel they should just abandon their cars exactly where they stopped, causing massive disruption to others ....as if they're trying to preserve a major crime scene.

This particular example isn't causing disruption but you can imagine if it was a busy junction.

Take a picture or mark the location of the cars if you want but get the fock off the road!

Anan1

I don't mean to sound harsh but only an inexperienced driver would even dream of trusting another car's indicator. IMO it's something that everyone learns never to do fairly early in their driving career.

Stinicker

One of the first things I was told my driving instructor a few years ago was never ever trust an indicator.

GhostInTheRuins

Both drivers are in the wrong, but the primera driver should know better than to trust anybody's indicators.

I've almost been caught a few times from idiots leaving their indicators on (I'm sure everyone has). I never move until the car actually starts to turn.

MarkR

Even if you could somehow prove that he had his indicator on, it'd still be the primera's fault.

Only mitigating factor would be where the impact on the primera is. It's quite far back on the car.

Lousy for the punto.

Chimaera

This thread raises an interesting point in my mind.

Nearly everyone has automatically jumped to the conclusion that the Nissan is 100% wrong, with a handful of dissenters apportioning some blame to the Punto for driving straight on while signalling left. I have to say I'm in the latter camp.

If we're to make such excuses for incorrectly signalling or assume that the signal given by another driver is somehow incorrect, then what's the bloody point in signalling at all? As a nation, we're f**king terrible for signalling and it bugs the hell out of me.

No, I hope some of the blame goes to the Punto driver in this scenario. It's about time people started paying attention to signalling, bearing in mind that indicators are one of the few means other drivers have of determining what your intent on the road is. If you mislead them by incorrectly signalling, then you shoulder some of the blame if they hit you.

Rowley Birkin QC

I blame the guy in the hoody.

dave1982

never trust indicators some people drive with them on and they don't even know they are on.

The Primera pulled out in front of the Punto.

CiniO

I know this is probably not really relevant, but in in Poland result would be as follows.

- If it could be proven that Punto had the indicator on, then it's Punto driver's fault.
- If it can't be proven and Punto driver claims he didn't indicate, it's Primera driver fault.

CiniO

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I hate the way people having minor accidents feel they should just abandon their cars exactly where they stopped, causing massive disruption to others ....as if they're trying to preserve a major crime scene.

This particular example isn't causing disruption but you can imagine if it was a busy junction.

Take a picture or mark the location of the cars if you want but get the fock off the road!

I'm not sure if it's legislated anywhere in Ireland what's the correct behaviour. I'd love to find out though.
In Poland f.e. after the accident there are following obligations on drivers:

- If there was no one injured or killed during the accident, vehicles must be moved off the road as quickly as possible to prevent obstruction. (for not doing so, drivers can be fined)
- If there was someone injured or killed, vehicles must not be moved and police must be called.

Davidth88

The Nissan is to blame, I was taught that even if the car is indicating you HAVE to wait until the person makes it obvious they are turning , ie slowing down starting the turn etc.


Never trust indicators. They only indicate possible intention not actually what the car is going to do.

Of course the Nissan driver can feel pretty hacked off , and the Punto driver is a twit but that's the way it is.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

I know this is probably not really relevant, but in in Poland result would be as follows.

- If it could be proven that Punto had the indicator on, then it's Punto driver's fault.
- If it can't be proven and Punto driver claims he didn't indicate, it's Primera driver fault.

So if you indicate your completely giving up right of way ? Can't say I'd be happy with that .

Paparazzo

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

I blame the guy in the hoody.

The biggest crime of all here is that turquoise hoody

The Big Red Button

One of the first things I ever learned when driving was that you should never trust or rely on indicators.

When coming out of my own estate, there's a split just down the road to the right. People coming towards my direction from the town indicate left to say that they're taking the left "split" road - but it's not enough of a turn for their indicator light to turn off automatically. So, while I'm waiting to come out of the estate (to turn right), there are always cars coming along that road with their indicators flashing that they're about to turn left, when they're actually going straight.

In other cases, the indicators may be broken. Or the person might be indicating way too far in advance for a turn. Or the person mightn't be sure of where they're going and might change their mind at the last minute.

The point is that you simply cannot rely on indicators, ever, and when you're driving you should never ever make any decisions based on other drivers' indicators.

Primera is definitely in the wrong here.

leeroybrown

Call me a cynic but I reckon there's a reasonable chance that the two insurance claims handlers will agree to apportion the blame 70:30 or 80:20 wiping out both no claims bonuses.

K.Flyer

One of the first things I was thought when learning to drive was to never ever trust another cars indicator. And I was reminded of that when I ended up in the path of an oncoming bus, luckily without a collision.
I.M.O. Even if the car had just indicated to to take the left turn, he is within his right to change his mind and not take the turn and continue in a forward direction as he still has right of way.
I now prefer to wait until a car is halfway around the corner before moving out of a turn.

thebiglad

The UK view

http://www.access-legal.co.uk/legal-news/misleading-signals-at-road-junctions-what-the-law-says-lu-2760.htm

Victor

Chimaera wrote: »

This thread raises an interesting point in my mind.

Nearly everyone has automatically jumped to the conclusion that the Nissan is 100% wrong, with a handful of dissenters apportioning some blame to the Punto for driving straight on while signalling left. I have to say I'm in the latter camp.

If we're to make such excuses for incorrectly signalling or assume that the signal given by another driver is somehow incorrect, then what's the bloody point in signalling at all? As a nation, we're f**king terrible for signalling and it bugs the hell out of me.

No, I hope some of the blame goes to the Punto driver in this scenario. It's about time people started paying attention to signalling, bearing in mind that indicators are one of the few means other drivers have of determining what your intent on the road is. If you mislead them by incorrectly signalling, then you shoulder some of the blame if they hit you.

And what happens if there is another vehicle behind the vehicle that is indicating? Like that motorbike that you didn't see?

Cookie_Monster

OT a bit but I don't get how you can fail to notice an indicator left on for more than 2 or 3 seconds. I can only imagine what else people are unaware of if they can't notice something like that.

Anan1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

OT a bit but I don't get how you can fail to notice an indicator left on for more than 2 or 3 seconds. I can only imagine what else people are unaware of if they can't notice something like that.

Isn't the problem here that the Primera driver did see the indicator?

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

OT a bit but I don't get how you can fail to notice an indicator left on for more than 2 or 3 seconds. I can only imagine what else people are unaware of if they can't notice something like that.

A friend had a hire car recently and when I was in it I thought he wasn't indicating. He was, its just that model had a very quiet clicking.

Oral Surgeon

When in doubt, it is always the bigger more expensive car that is in the right, so it's the..... mmmmm??

Littlehorny

Primera in the wrong, he assumed the Punto was turning left and pulled out. Any good instructer should be warning learners of this, also experience on the road will soon teach you not to trust what other drivers are doing or going to do.
The Primera cannot claim the accident was not his fault because he thought the Punto was turning left.
Bottom line, never trust what other eejits are gonna do on the road.

padd b1975

Littlehorny wrote: »

Primera in the wrong, he assumed the Punto was turning left and pulled out. Any good instructer should be warning learners of this, also experience on the road will soon teach you not to trust what other drivers are doing or going to do.
The Primera cannot claim the accident was not his fault because he thought the Punto was turning left.
Bottom line, never trust what other eejits are gonna do on the road.

I think going by where the Punto has ended up, it could be easy for the Primera driver to argue that the Punto driver DID turn left but understeered and hit his car as he began to pull out.

Are there any other witnesses?

K.Flyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

OT a bit but I don't get how you can fail to notice an indicator left on for more than 2 or 3 seconds. I can only imagine what else people are unaware of if they can't notice something like that.

I have seen cars drive for miles along the M50 ( and other roads) with an indicator flashing away.
I can only presume they have music / radio on and dont hear the clicking of the relay.

Victor

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think going by where the Punto has ended up, it could be easy for the Primera driver to argue that the Punto driver DID turn left but understeered and hit his car as he began to pull out.

Equally, it could be said that the Primera could have driver on the wrong side of the road when pulling out. As to whether it's true is another matter.

mkdon05

I wish people would learn to use their indicators properly, and that means being aware of them being on or off. The punto should be made take the full blame for misleading other road users.
Leaving my estate every day I see this as people turn off a roundabout and leave their indicator on, then proceed to head straight down the road. Pisses me off!