What's TCD like as a university? :)

0000879k

Title says it all :P

Just sum up what you think about it, and your experience with it.. please?

Tragedy

Pretentious. Not bad, but pretentious is the word that instantly springs to mind.

Jammyc

If you'd like proper answers, you'll have to be more specific:
Do you mean with regard to academics? societies? sports clubs? facilities?

0000879k

I mean like atmosphere, the people, the place etc, not the courses

Tears in Rain

Atmosphere's pretty good, the social life is very much oriented around clubs and societies so join a few and see what you like. The central location's great for going out, since you can just chill outside the pav and have a few cans then hit a club if you want to.

I wouldn't call the atmosphere pretentious, there are definitely pretentious people but they generally stick to their pretentious cliques and you can ignore them. Personally I don't mind them, but then I get labelled pretentious a fair bit myself so w/e.

On the whole the atmosphere is pretty fun loving and there's generally something to do any given day, but some of the courses in Trinity are pretty demanding, and that's going to affect your social life a bit. For instance, I'm doing TP and I'm probably going to be a proper social pariah next year.

It's lovely. It's a quiet place in the centre of Dublin, lots of things to do. Social life can be entirely determined by yourself (i.e. there's something for everyone). Lovely buildings, academic feeling to the place.

The Arts end, I feel, has a slightly different feel to the Science end, but I'd say that's because Arts courses tend to have less hours and more reading.

The pretentious people are entirely avoidable.

Tragedy

true-or-false wrote: »

The pretentious people are entirely avoidable.

IME, sadly not. 100% of 30 BESS students I asked (JF, I was mentoring) stated that they picked Trinity first and course second. That's incredibly pretentious!

Likewise in first year, a bunch of lecturers pointed out that students were lucky to be in Trinity and that Trinity was special. I think that was even in our Introductory lecture.

Unregistered.

Tragedy wrote: »

IME, sadly not. 100% of 30 BESS students I asked (JF, I was mentoring) stated that they picked Trinity first and course second. That's incredibly pretentious!

Great sample for your poll there.

Tragedy

Unregistered. wrote: »

Great sample for your poll there.

It wasn't a poll and it wasn't a sample, nor did I phrase my post in such a way as to construe it as being so.

Great premise for a post there.

Unregistered.

Tragedy wrote: »

...nor did I phrase my post in such a way as to construe it as being so.

You didn't need to! It was exactly a poll. But that's aside, you're missing (ignoring) the point.

You asked 30 BESS students. There is going to be a huge amount of bias and the opinion of a minute number of students, who are all taking the same course, is not going to be representative of Trinity College. Your conclusion could be that first year BESS students are incredibly pretentious, not that Trinity, as a whole, is.

sadie06

This is a light hearted take on the 'is Trinity pretentious' issue. I was in Trinity quite a lot towards the end of my degree in NUIM, and came across the funniest graffiti in a toilet cubicle: It read: 'Is it wrong that I don't want to be with him just because he only goes to GMIT and has no future?'.

I am well aware that you can't generalise, but you would never read anything like that in NUIM. Even funnier were the 'you should have some fun, but he's obviously not marriage material' replies. I'm looking forward to the entertainment value of over hearing the pretentious minority in action!

Personally, I can't wait to start in Trinity in September. I've always loved the atmosphere, I love the library and I'm ready for a change.

Tragedy

Unregistered. wrote: »

You didn't need to! It was exactly a poll. But that's aside, you're missing (ignoring) the point.

You asked 30 BESS students. There is going to be a huge amount of bias and the opinion of a minute number of students, who are all taking the same course, is not going to be representative of Trinity College. Your conclusion could be that first year BESS students are incredibly pretentious, not that Trinity, as a whole, is.

I see, so if I ask two friends if they liked a movie and I post on boards that two of my friends didn't like a movie, the reality is is that I conducted a poll and my post is an attempt to show that no-one on earth likes that movie?

Tripe.

Original post:

Just sum up what you think about it, and your experience with it.. please?

My second post:

IME, sadly not.

You're also assuming that my opinion is solely founded on one incident involving 30 TCD students. Why? Who knows, it's an idiotic position for you to take but then that seems to be a trademark of your posts in this thread so far.

Do I need to explain what an example is to you, or are you going to stop pretending to be an idiot and actually take posts at face value? ****, I probably should explain what an example is to you.

an instance serving for illustration

There you go, I posted an instance serving for illustration of why I think pretentious is the defining word for TCD in my time there.

Kudos on serving as a perfect illustration for pretentious TCD'ers though, pretending to be more intelligent than you are.

Tragedy

Tragedy wrote: »

I see, so if I ask two friends if they liked a movie and I post on boards that two of my friends didn't like a movie, the reality is is that I conducted a poll and my post is an attempt to show that no-one on earth likes that movie?

Tripe.

Getting people's opinions on something is a poll. I hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth when I say that I don't think anyone meant to imply that your experience was purposely biased. It's just that generally BESS isn't a degree that students are particularly passionate about, rather, from what I've seen, the majority of BESS students just want to work hard for a few years and get a degree. Which is a perfectly worthwhile endeavour, but leaves a lot of room for choosing courses you think will have a good look on your CV when you're finished. So I'm not too surprised that they chose TCD first and the degree second.

I am passionate about my degree choice, but I too chose TCD first and course second - because TCD was closer to my home, I preferred the atmosphere to UCD or DCU (the other two colleges I was considering) and I used to spend time in TCD as a teenager so I knew my way around. So maybe even with your experience being slightly BESS biased, not all of them meant TCD for the sake of pretentiousness.

There you go, I posted an instance serving for illustration of why I think pretentious is the defining word for TCD in my time there.

It's unfortunate that your time in TCD was overshadowed by that, but for many other people, myself included, pretentiousness is nothing more than an occasional thing from a small amount of people who are entirely avoidable.

whendovescry

I think the fact that TCD is labelled as pretentious has led to some people being subliminally primed to look for concrete examples.

It staggers me to to think how anyone could imagine the several thousand undergrads in trinity being in anyway different from a similar size group from UCD, or Harvard or Sydney University, in terms of general behavior, interests and social practices

Anyone who believes otherwise needs to:

1) take a step back and look at the bigger picture
2) get out more

Jonathan

This got out of hand quickly.

Tragedy & Unregistered.: Take your disagreement elsewhere, preferably to PM.

ViveLaVie

I went to both UCC and TCD. BIG difference between the two colleges.

Some people think TCD has the BEST students in the country and the BEST teaching etc. I don't necessarily agree. The level of teaching I received in both colleges was fairly similar.

TCD does not feel like an Irish university. Little differences like naming each year (first years are called junior freshmen, second years senior freshmen, third years junior sophisters etc), naming each term (Michaelmas Term and Hilary Term) and Schols (which in fairness is a great idea) give the college an English vibe.

The social life in TCD isn't great IMO in comparison to other Irish unis. It has the WORST Rag Week I have ever seen (I've been to NUIM, NUIG, UL, UCC and CIT Rag Weeks). When I asked people why it was so badly organised, they said only the country universities bother with RW... Ditto for Freshers' Week.

Trinity Ball is epic in fairness but that's about it. Now to be fair I didn't join clubs or socs but nor did I do so in UCC and yet my social life down there was far far superior and I didn't know anyone in Cork when I first started there either.

TCD is very academic in nature and there DEFINITELY are a LOT of pretentious people there who think they're better than students in other unis. I have heard TCD heads say that they have better degrees than students in other colleges who have the exact same qualifications. I have heard TCD heads say they're just plain better than students in other colleges.

Yeah they can be avoided. However, it is HARDER to avoid them as there are more of them.

If I had the choice to go back I'm not sure if I'd pick TCD again. I am not a nerdy person and so I found it a bit harder to find like-minded friends in TCD. I enjoy going out, having fun, drinking, meeting people etc. Most of my classmates enjoy reading and quiet nights in. Some of them genuinely like studying which I detest. For someone like that TCD is a wonderful college. For someone more like me... maybe reconsider.

NSNO

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I went to both UCC and TCD. BIG difference between the two colleges.

Some people think TCD has the BEST students in the country and the BEST teaching etc. I don't necessarily agree. The level of teaching I received in both colleges was fairly similar.

TCD does not feel like an Irish university. Little differences like naming each year (first years are called junior freshmen, second years senior freshmen, third years junior sophisters etc), naming each term (Michaelmas Term and Hilary Term) and Schols (which in fairness is a great idea) give the college an English vibe.

The social life in TCD isn't great IMO in comparison to other Irish unis. It has the WORST Rag Week I have ever seen (I've been to NUIM, NUIG, UL, UCC and CIT Rag Weeks). When I asked people why it was so badly organised, they said only the country universities bother with RW... Ditto for Freshers' Week.

Trinity Ball is epic in fairness but that's about it. Now to be fair I didn't join clubs or socs but nor did I do so in UCC and yet my social life down there was far far superior and I didn't know anyone in Cork when I first started there either.

TCD is very academic in nature and there DEFINITELY are a LOT of pretentious people there who think they're better than students in other unis. I have heard TCD heads say that they have better degrees than students in other colleges who have the exact same qualifications. I have heard TCD heads say they're just plain better than students in other colleges.

Yeah they can be avoided. However, it is HARDER to avoid them as there are more of them.

If I had the choice to go back I'm not sure if I'd pick TCD again. I am not a nerdy person and so I found it a bit harder to find like-minded friends in TCD. I enjoy going out, having fun, drinking, meeting people etc. Most of my classmates enjoy reading and quiet nights in. Some of them genuinely like studying which I detest. For someone like that TCD is a wonderful college. For someone more like me... maybe reconsider.

Commenting on the social life in Trinity without joining any clubs or socs is more than a little misleading.

Trinity's social life - perhaps more than any other college in Ireland - is heavily based in societies and clubs. I got involved in 2 in my first year and I had 2-3 events to attend nearly every week. And there are societies for everything with a ton of active, enthusiastic members and plenty of events. There is far too much great stuff (From debates, plays and comedy nights to good old-fashioned piss-ups and parties) on in a given week for anybody to go to. Haven't even mentioned the awesome range of ssports clubs but that's more because I've just eaten a take-away and more than hate myself for not going to the gym more last year . Anywho, Trinity's active societies and clubs are one of its strongest selling points and are a great way to meet new friends who like the same stuff you do.


To the OP, Trinity is a great university to go to. The campus is beautiful, not too big and you are right in the centre of the city which really can't be underestimated. As mentioned above the social life is fantastic if you get involved in wider college life, not just your course/year. The people are great too, a complete breath of fresh air from where I came from myself. There's a great, open/liberal, fun-loving atmosphere and a real pro-learning/intellectual culture that you may not have had if you are coming from a big state school like I did.

Some courses can be pretty demanding but feck it if you won't go out on the tear regularly anyway. Work hard, play hard. (Unless studying for schols in which case: Work hard, hate yourself )

Tragedy

true-or-false wrote: »

Getting people's opinions on something is a poll. I hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth when I say that I don't think anyone meant to imply that your experience was purposely biased. It's just that generally BESS isn't a degree that students are particularly passionate about, rather, from what I've seen, the majority of BESS students just want to work hard for a few years and get a degree. Which is a perfectly worthwhile endeavour, but leaves a lot of room for choosing courses you think will have a good look on your CV when you're finished. So I'm not too surprised that they chose TCD first and the degree second.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that this thread is about people's individual experiences in TCD. Obviously I'm not claiming that everyone in TCD is pretentious, or that it is a fact that TCD as a college is pretentious. I never portrayed my post as anything other than my experience, so there is no reason to start a large discussion over statistical sampling involved in my asking 30 BESS students on if they picked TCD or BESS first. I made it quite clear in my post that it was a small group of JF BESS students, so I don't understand why people keep posting replies as if I had hidden this fact and misrepresented my 'poll' as to being statistically significant and representative.

Also, a poll has significant connotations, just like a survey does. While one can claim asking any group of people a question constitutes a poll (or a survey), in reality and in the vast, vast majority of people's minds it just constitutes a question.

It's unfortunate that your time in TCD was overshadowed by that, but for many other people, myself included, pretentiousness is nothing more than an occasional thing from a small amount of people who are entirely avoidable.

Huh? I never said it was overshadowed. Or a particularly negative thing. The thread asked for people to sum up their experiences of it, and for me the defining characteristic so far is a quiet prevalent attitude of pretentiousness. Not it's city centre location and vibrant atmosphere, it's quality of teaching, the facilities, socs&clubs.

@Whendovescry, you're kind of missing the point. People are pretentious about Trinity, not people in Trinity are pretentious.

ViveLaVie

NSNO wrote: »

Commenting on the social life in Trinity without joining any clubs or socs is more than a little misleading.

Trinity's social life - perhaps more than any other college in Ireland - is heavily based in societies and clubs. I got involved in 2 in my first year and I had 2-3 events to attend nearly every week. And there are societies for everything with a ton of active, enthusiastic members and plenty of events. There is far too much great stuff (From debates, plays and comedy nights to good old-fashioned piss-ups and parties) on in a given week for anybody to go to. Haven't even mentioned the awesome range of ssports clubs but that's more because I've just eaten a take-away and more than hate myself for not going to the gym more last year . Anywho, Trinity's active societies and clubs are one of its strongest selling points and are a great way to meet new friends who like the same stuff you do.

To be fair, I don't think it's misleading as I clearly said that I didn't join any clubs or socs. I also didn't join any in UCC but my social life was better, classmates and housemates were more up for going out than their TCD counterparts. Yeah I obviously put myself at a disadvantage, but that disadvantage proved to be less of a hindrance in another college that has a more vibrant social life in my experience.

I also mentioned Rag Week and Freshers' Week and the fact that they're not celebrated in the same way that they are in other colleges (I listed the ones I've been at) is an indication of the overall lack of interest in socialising in TCD in comparison with other colleges IMO.

I agree that there is a good intellectual vibe around the place and it is a stunning campus. Reading back over my post I think it comes across a bit more negative than I meant it originally, but I stand by what I said regarding the social life.

Dublin in general lacks the student community social aspect found in other colleges IMO.

It is a great college in other ways and I did meet some lovely people but I think for people like myself a college like UCC might be a better choice. For people who aren't as concerned about the social aspect to college then TCD is great.

Lisandro

true-or-false wrote: »

.The Arts end, I feel, has a slightly different feel to the Science end, but I'd say that's because Arts courses tend to have less hours and more reading.

I'd say it's a very different feel. Due to the lack of good places to eat down by the Hamilton, I end up passing by the Arts Block every day on the way to lunch. It's like going through a different university. People Hang out there much more, especially on the couches, whereas people at the Hamilton tend to be in constant transit between lectures and when they do sit down and relax, they're normally in rooms off the main corridor (such as the Mathsoc Room, which is contained in the school of mathematics). People at the Hamilton tend to wear what's comfortable (or something that's different), the Arts end is generally much more fashionable. The Hamilton is the basis of my academic life, but I go towards the other end of the college for social life, so you can say I enjoy the best of both worlds.

Tragedy wrote: »

stated that they picked Trinity first and course second. That's incredibly pretentious...a bunch of lecturers pointed out that students were lucky to be in Trinity and that Trinity was special.

I wouldn't necessarily call that pretentious, Trinity does excel in certain areas, I wouldn't consider it arrogant to think that or act on it when choosing what to put down on the CAO form.

whendovescry wrote: »

It staggers me to to think how anyone could imagine the several thousand undergrads in trinity being in anyway different from a similar size group from UCD, or Harvard or Sydney University, in terms of general behavior, interests and social practices

Although I don't buy into the idea that specifically Trinity students are pretentious, is it really that implausible to suppose that undergrads from different demographics at different universities in different countries with different cultures might be in some way, well, different?

whendovescry

wrote:

Although I don't buy into the idea that specifically Trinity students are pretentious, is it really that implausible to suppose that undergrads from different demographics at different universities in different countries with different cultures might be in some way, well, different?

Of course there are differences between different demographics/cultures, but for university students in first world countries, there aren't much.

For example, excluding environmental occurrences, Are there any behavioral traits displayed by TCD students that aren't found in the aforemetioned demographics, and vice versa?

Lisandro

whendovescry wrote: »

Of course there are differences between different demographics/cultures, but for university students in first world countries, there aren't much.

For example, excluding environmental occurrences, Are there any behavioral traits displayed by TCD students that aren't found in the aforemetioned demographics, and vice versa?

Well, probably. Without assuming what these differences are (because that would require observations beyond a few anecdotes), I would suggest that student life in Harvard is different from student life in Trinity. For one, American culture across the board is quite different from Irish culture, so one might expect to see differences in, for example, their social lives (fraternities are quite common over in America, they have quite a bad reputation over here), drinking culture, philosophies on personal liberty and whatever other parameters you want to consider. From my experience, in debating, I find that Americans have a completely different speaking and argumentation style to people from Ireland/Britain.

Universities are at their cores similar, I accept, but across a spectrum, differences, however subtle, exist.

whendovescry

Lisandro wrote: »

Well, probably. Without assuming what these differences are (because that would require observations beyond a few anecdotes), I would suggest that student life in Harvard is different from student life in Trinity. For one, American culture across the board is quite different from Irish culture, so one might expect to see differences in, for example, their social lives (fraternities are quite common over in America, they have quite a bad reputation over here), drinking culture, philosophies on personal liberty and whatever other parameters you want to consider. From my experience, in debating, I find that Americans have a completely different speaking and argumentation style to people from Ireland/Britain.

Universities are at their cores similar, I accept, but across a spectrum, differences, however subtle, exist.

+1 on the argumentation style of Americans, and i find that they generally better informed than their Irish counterparts.

My friend goes to the university of California, Berkeley and when I went over to visit him he took me to a frat party.

I had preconceptions about Americans being 'softer' than the Irish when It comes to drinking culture, but my eyes were certainly opened that night; just as bad if not worse! They also have very liberal attitudes regarding sex, drugs same/sex marriages, just as Irish students do.

Regarding philosophies of personal liberty, while I agree that it affects their outlook and initiative, I don't think it is that well pronounced to be discernible.

I could go on but my takeaway from that trip was that there is very little difference between a 20 year old college student from the states and one from Ireland. They are more than likely to have parents that went to college, hail from a middle-class socio-economic background, listen to the same music, watch the same movies and generally occupy their minds with the same things.

The main difference I found was that American students work harder, but that is most likely arising from the remnants of the American dream ideology.

Lisandro

whendovescry wrote: »

+1 on the argumentation style of Americans, and i find that they generally better informed than their Irish counterparts.

My friend goes to the university of California, Berkeley and when I went over to visit him he took me to a frat party.

I had preconceptions about Americans being 'softer' than the Irish when It comes to drinking culture, but my eyes were certainly opened that night; just as bad if not worse! They also have very liberal attitudes regarding sex, drugs same/sex marriages, just as Irish students do.

Regarding philosophies of personal liberty, while I agree that it affects their outlook and initiative, I don't think it is that well pronounced to be discernible.

I could go on but my takeaway from that trip was that there is very little difference between a 20 year old college student from the states and one from Ireland. They are more than likely to have parents that went to college, hail from a middle-class socio-economic background, listen to the same music, watch the same movies and generally occupy their minds with the same things.

The main difference I found was that American students work harder, but that is most likely arising from the remnants of the American dream ideology.

Actually, I thought it was the American debaters who were bad, their policy debating competitions are based largely around word-vomit, they're adjudicated based on "evidence cards" (which is very much in keeping with the tendency in American debaters to think that one side is objectively right/wrong and can be determined with facts and statistics). Debating in Ireland/Britain is more based around principles, its more discerning in terms of what arguments are relevant, but it does suffer from appealing too much to intuition (though this is more of a flaw on the Irish rather than the English circuit).

End of digression. American drinking culture is interesting, especially considering that many people over here think that only we and the British are bad drinkers. Liberal views on drugs/sex etc., they're similar from what I gather. Things like freedom of speech and gun ownership are defended much more, Americans generally value their constitution much more than we do, often to the point that something being in the constitution is considered an argument for it. I think Irish university students generally identify themselves as liberal but have some conservative tendencies that places them closer to centre than in America. I think the controversy that arises in (broadly liberal) debating circles whenever fascist politicians are invited to speak to some extent reflects this.

Tears in Rain

Lisandro wrote: »

Americans generally value their constitution much more than we do, often to the point that something being in the constitution is considered an argument for it.

Well I suppose this is understandable, their constitution after all, was created by a bunch of enlightened freethinkers who were years ahead of their time, and is, notwithstanding the amendments, a fairly minimalist affair.

Ours on the other hand, is a bloated and flawed document, created with the grim specter of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid breathing down the authors' necks at all times.

whendovescry

Lisandro wrote: »

Actually, I thought it was the American debaters who were bad, their policy debating competitions are based largely around word-vomit, they're adjudicated based on "evidence cards" (which is very much in keeping with the tendency in American debaters to think that one side is objectively right/wrong and can be determined with facts and statistics). Debating in Ireland/Britain is more based around principles, its more discerning in terms of what arguments are relevant, but it does suffer from appealing too much to intuition (though this is more of a flaw on the Irish rather than the English circuit).

End of digression. American drinking culture is interesting, especially considering that many people over here think that only we and the British are bad drinkers. Liberal views on drugs/sex etc., they're similar from what I gather. Things like freedom of speech and gun ownership are defended much more, Americans generally value their constitution much more than we do, often to the point that something being in the constitution is considered an argument for it. I think Irish university students generally identify themselves as liberal but have some conservative tendencies that places them closer to centre than in America. I think the controversy that arises in (broadly liberal) debating circles whenever fascist politicians are invited to speak to some extent reflects this.

To second Tears in rain (big fan of that movie btw!) I would certainly value the American constitution as a wonderfully prescient and masterfully crafted document.

I hesitate saying prescient but then again I don't think you can blame Jefferson et al for not foreseeing where arms technology would be today. Providing for your family and defending one's property were a priority during the 18th century, whereas every gun manufactured today is done so with the sole purpose of killing another human being
.
I don't think most level-headed Americans are big into defending gun laws at this stage, and see it as a somewhat archaic addition to an otherwise modern constitution.

I think that law is in the process of dying a slow, spluttering death. The last bastion of resistance are the bible belt, park-your-SUV-on-the-front-lawn-rednecks who make up a disconcertingly large proportion of the population.

I agree that most Irish students are leftist, at least the ones that can think for themselves. The conservative cohort that you mention have been unadulteratedly brainwashed by their ultraconservative parents and wouldn't recognize a new thought if it slapped them in the face!




I've just realized that we have tread very far from the beaten path

Lawliet

It's threads like this that make me really sorry I never read this forum before getting into Trinity. I'd love to be able to appreciate this stuff as an outsider.
"I wanted to find out what the atmosphere was like, but they kept getting into pointless arguments over whether or not they're pretentious, and then they started discussing American values, political leanings and the constitution.
On second thoughts lets not go to Trinity, it is a silly place."

0000879k

Lawliet wrote: »

It's threads like this that make me really sorry I never read this forum before getting into Trinity. I'd love to be able to appreciate this stuff as an outsider.
"I wanted to find out what the atmosphere was like, but they kept getting into pointless arguments over whether or not they're pretentious, and then they started discussing American values, political leanings and the constitution.
On second thoughts lets not go to Trinity, it is a silly place."

In fairness if the students are bickering over silly things, it doesn't sound too pleasant.

Tears in Rain

Lawliet wrote: »

"I wanted to find out what the atmosphere was like, but they kept getting into pointless arguments over whether or not they're pretentious, and then they started discussing American values, political leanings and the constitution.
On second thoughts lets not go to Trinity, it is a silly place."

lol'd

0000879k wrote: »

In fairness if the students are bickering over silly things, it doesn't sound too pleasant.

Honestly, that's just a case of the forums having a load of bickering trolls, and they're not really representative of the 15,000 or so strong student body.

andrew

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I went to both UCC and TCD. BIG difference between the two colleges.

Some people think TCD has the BEST students in the country and the BEST teaching etc. I don't necessarily agree. The level of teaching I received in both colleges was fairly similar.

TCD does not feel like an Irish university. Little differences like naming each year (first years are called junior freshmen, second years senior freshmen, third years junior sophisters etc), naming each term (Michaelmas Term and Hilary Term) and Schols (which in fairness is a great idea) give the college an English vibe.

The social life in TCD isn't great IMO in comparison to other Irish unis. It has the WORST Rag Week I have ever seen (I've been to NUIM, NUIG, UL, UCC and CIT Rag Weeks). When I asked people why it was so badly organised, they said only the country universities bother with RW... Ditto for Freshers' Week.

Trinity Ball is epic in fairness but that's about it. Now to be fair I didn't join clubs or socs but nor did I do so in UCC and yet my social life down there was far far superior and I didn't know anyone in Cork when I first started there either.

TCD is very academic in nature and there DEFINITELY are a LOT of pretentious people there who think they're better than students in other unis. I have heard TCD heads say that they have better degrees than students in other colleges who have the exact same qualifications. I have heard TCD heads say they're just plain better than students in other colleges.

Yeah they can be avoided. However, it is HARDER to avoid them as there are more of them.

If I had the choice to go back I'm not sure if I'd pick TCD again. I am not a nerdy person and so I found it a bit harder to find like-minded friends in TCD. I enjoy going out, having fun, drinking, meeting people etc. Most of my classmates enjoy reading and quiet nights in. Some of them genuinely like studying which I detest. For someone like that TCD is a wonderful college. For someone more like me... maybe reconsider.

Given, as you say, that Trinity is more academic and 'nerdy,' with people who like to study, I think its to be expected that people in Trinity will feel that their degrees are better than those from other universities.

I think there's a difference between being pretentious, and recognizing that Trinity is the best college (by many objective measures) in the country. The people who are pretentious dicks I think are in the minority, but at the same time people are (rightly) proud that they're studying in a very good university, having worked their asses off in school In order to get in.

tehjimmeh

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Some of them genuinely like studying which I detest.

What's the point of going to university if you don't enjoy studying the course you chose?

Lisandro

Lawliet wrote: »

It's threads like this that make me really sorry I never read this forum before getting into Trinity. I'd love to be able to appreciate this stuff as an outsider.
"I wanted to find out what the atmosphere was like, but they kept getting into pointless arguments over whether or not they're pretentious, and then they started discussing American values, political leanings and the constitution.
On second thoughts lets not go to Trinity, it is a silly place."

I know. I've created a monster.

Tears in Rain wrote: »

their constitution after all, was created by a bunch of enlightened freethinkers who were years ahead of their time, and is, notwithstanding the amendments, a fairly minimalist affair...ours is a bloated and flawed document, created with the grim specter of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid breathing down the authors' necks at all times.

whendovescry wrote: »

I hesitate saying prescient but then again I don't think you can blame Jefferson et al for not foreseeing where arms technology would be today. Providing for your family and defending one's property were a priority during the 18th century, whereas every gun manufactured today is done so with the sole purpose of killing another human being.

Indeed, it is a fine document. It has its incompatibilities with today, then again, it was written in a different time. In terms of modern stuff, the constitution rightly defends freedom of speech, but people can be too quick to think that means defending freedom of speech at all costs, which under certain circumstances can be a bad thing (eg. hate speech). I find that Americans liberals tend to value freedom of speech in a more absolute way than over here. I know its trivial, but I never quite got why reference is made to the christian god bearing in mind the writers were predominately atheists, agnostics and (at a push) deists. Interestingly, there are many on the religious conservative wing who still think they were all theists...

whendovescry wrote: »

I agree that most Irish students are leftist, at least the ones that can think for themselves. The conservative cohort that you mention have been unadulteratedly brainwashed by their ultraconservative parents and wouldn't recognize a new thought if it slapped them in the face!

Did I mention a conservative cohort? I don't seem to recall that...

0000879k

Lisandro wrote: »

I know. I've created a monster.





Indeed, it is a fine document. It has its incompatibilities with today, then again, it was written in a different time. In terms of modern stuff, the constitution rightly defends freedom of speech, but people can be too quick to think that means defending freedom of speech at all costs, which under certain circumstances can be a bad thing (eg. hate speech). I find that Americans liberals tend to value freedom of speech in a more absolute way than over here. I know its trivial, but I never quite got why reference is made to the christian god bearing in mind the writers were predominately atheists, agnostics and (at a push) deists. Interestingly, there are many on the religious conservative wing who still think they were all theists...



Did I mention a conservative cohort? I don't seem to recall that...

I think we might be going a bit off topic..

Lisandro

0000879k wrote: »

I think we might be going a bit off topic..

"A bit" is an understatement...

MaggieLizer

TCD has many selling points:
1) It has the best name of all the universities in Ireland and is regarded as the most prestigious,
2) Attracts the bests academically,
3) Has a long and illustrious history,
4) Magnificent buildings,
5) A great location in the centre of Dublin
6) The Pav
7) Halls
8) Trinity Ball.

Needless to say, I've loved my time there - stressful at times but worth it for the experience and the top standard education.

Brokentime

0000879k wrote: »

I mean like atmosphere, the people, the place etc, not the courses

I'm thinking this is going to be a highly contentious thread. College experiences, almost more than anything else, tend to be very subjective and formative experiences in people's lives.

I graduated in 2006, so a little while ago.

The atmosphere there was undeniably classical; from the moment you walk in through the arch on College Green, and the sound of the city fades behind you, you genuinely feel you're walking into a studied, urbane institution. Trinity just... looks the part, if you know what I mean.

The people... mixed bag, generally. I made more friends from clubs and societies than I did in my class, because my class seemed to be very impressed with themselves as a whole. I found the lecturers to be quite nice, though, and very approachable.

The college itself is grand. Library is amazing, most classrooms and lecture theaters are great; the Pav is a great bar, especially in the summer months.

ViveLaVie

andrew wrote: »

Given, as you say, that Trinity is more academic and 'nerdy,' with people who like to study, I think its to be expected that people in Trinity will feel that their degrees are better than those from other universities.

I think there's a difference between being pretentious, and recognizing that Trinity is the best college (by many objective measures) in the country. The people who are pretentious dicks I think are in the minority, but at the same time people are (rightly) proud that they're studying in a very good university, having worked their asses off in school In order to get in.

Well as I already said, I didn't see any difference in the quality of the teaching between UCC and TCD. If someone studies hard, sure they may get a higher grade than someone who doesn't put in the same effort. However, I'm disputing the idea that a 1.1 degree in Medicine from TCD is better than a 1.1 degree in Medicine from UCC.

I think it's a bit pretentious to go around thinking you've a better degree than someone who has attained the same degree in another university simply because your degree was awarded by TCD and theirs wasn't. It's something that I wouldn't have time for and there are a lot of people that feel the same.

There are many people who are eligible to study in TCD but choose not to. A lot of TCD heads seem to think everyone hopes to get into TCD and other universities and institutes of learning are 'fallbacks'. I was asked by an undergrad student in TCD if I'd applied to do my MA there after not making the cut for the undergrad. He was rather incredulous when I told him that UCC had always been my first choice for my undergraduate study and I'd never had TCD on the CAO. I'm sure he assumed I didn't get the points for my course there and that I was trying to cover it up. An absolutely ridiculous attitude.

I came across many fantastic students in other colleges during my college days. One girl in particular stood out. She got Student of the Year every year in UCC, never achieved below a First and recently got accepted to study for a Ph.D (in Cambridge, if that makes a difference to you :P). I'm sure though her undergraduate degree isn't as good as its TCD equivalent...after all, the best students go to TCD not UCC :rolleyes:

I am equally as proud of my degree from UCC as I am for my degree from TCD. As I said, there is more of an intellectual vibe around the place in TCD. However, not everyone chooses a college for solely that reason. And there really wasn't any difference in the quality of teaching or the quality of degree content.

tehjimmeh wrote: »

What's the point of going to university if you don't enjoy studying the course you chose?

I absolutely loved my undergrad course and I quite enjoyed my MA. I just don't enjoy studying. I don't think this is unusual? :P I'd much rather go out and have fun than stay in studying. I was talking about people who genuinely enjoy studying i.e. they would rather study than go out socialising etc. I obviously studied when necessary and I'm very passionate about my subject. :cool:

RedFFWolf

@ViveLaVie

I think when some people say that a degree from TCD is better, I think they may be actually trying to imply that it would be better to have a degree from TCD. As TCD has a great reputation in Ireland (or so told), it is often said that employers would see a level 8 degree of subject X in some lesser reputable college in the country, and then the same but from TCD. Not only does the whole "intellectual reputation" come into account here, but the fact that it takes a hefty amount of points for the most part to get into TCD, then employers may see this as someone having worked hard before college, and hard in college (especially the attitude I came across that "it must be harder to study in TCD" - I found quite a few people to think this).

I certainly don't think that a degree from another college is in any way inferior to a degree from TCD, but what has to be brought into consideration is what does this degree tell one about the person who owns it. TCD degree taught him A, B, C, D, F, G, & I, while the other college taught him A, B, E, & F - the degree itself may not confer extra value, but it depends what one can spout about what was learned in order to attain the degree. If TCD for the most part teaches more in certain subjects over other ones, then perhaps this is how it can be seen as having a better degree. I don't like to say this so please challenge any problems you see with this - it's just a take on what may be implied here - I'm sure there are enough people who think that regardless of particular instances, a degree in TCD is just whole-heartedly better, but I'm not one of them :P

ViveLaVie

RedFFWolf wrote: »

@ViveLaVie

I think when some people say that a degree from TCD is better, I think they may be actually trying to imply that it would be better to have a degree from TCD. As TCD has a great reputation in Ireland (or so told), it is often said that employers would see a level 8 degree of subject X in some lesser reputable college in the country, and then the same but from TCD. Not only does the whole "intellectual reputation" come into account here, but the fact that it takes a hefty amount of points for the most part to get into TCD, then employers may see this as someone having worked hard before college, and hard in college (especially the attitude I came across that "it must be harder to study in TCD" - I found quite a few people to think this).

I certainly don't think that a degree from another college is in any way inferior to a degree from TCD, but what has to be brought into consideration is what does this degree tell one about the person who owns it. TCD degree taught him A, B, C, D, F, G, & I, while the other college taught him A, B, E, & F - the degree itself may not confer extra value, but it depends what one can spout about what was learned in order to attain the degree. If TCD for the most part teaches more in certain subjects over other ones, then perhaps this is how it can be seen as having a better degree. I don't like to say this so please challenge any problems you see with this - it's just a take on what may be implied here - I'm sure there are enough people who think that regardless of particular instances, a degree in TCD is just whole-heartedly better, but I'm not one of them :P

Hmm. I agree that competition to get into TCD is higher, for the most part, than other colleges in Ireland. However, personally I have little mass on the Leaving Cert. as an indicator of intelligence. LC results can be used as a barometer to measure hard work, perhaps. However, this is not always the case either. The LC is nothing more than an exercise in memorisation and regurgitation imo.

That said, it is probable that intelligent and/or hardworking people tend to gain better results in the LC. Going on that, it may be the case that TCD has a larger percentage of intelligent and/or hardworking students than another college.

However, even if this is so, it doesn't mean that there are only unintelligent and lazy students elsewhere. Other colleges also require a hefty number of points for several courses. As well as that, someone may do poorly in school for a number of reasons, but may excel in college.

Any exams and continuous assessment submitted in college is assessed primarily by a lecturer, but further by an external examiner. The external examiners are independent of the colleges and aim to keep the standard balanced across the country. It seems likely then that a 1.1 achieved in UCC is the same as a 1.1 in TCD.

I think the perception is that TCD is better because getting in in the first place is harder. However, this has no relevance to the quality of the degree, but rather the competition for the places. The degrees are the same. I'm fairly sure content in TCD is not any more expansive or in depth than in other colleges. In my experience, it's the same. In fact, I actually preferred the teaching style in UCC

If someone looks at a CV and sees X has 500 points in the LC and a 2.1 degree in Science from UCC and Y has 500 points and a 2.1 degree in Science from TCD then I would assume they see two candidates on an equal level. They may make a judgement call further to that depending on their own perceptions i.e. they may think TCD students are more pretentious and hence prefer to hire the UCC graduate or they may think the TCD student has a better degree and prefer to hire them.

When I applied to TCD for my MA I submitted my UCC transcript, detailing what modules I had studied and a breakdown of my results. I was accepted into the course. I know of people that had the same undergrad from TCD that applied and didn't get in. In this case, TCD saw my UCC degree as having as much value as a TCD degree. Likewise, that girl I mentioned earlier got into Cambridge on the strength of her degree in UCC. I think people need to stop looking at the little black line that says TCD and start looking at the person as a whole, considering other things as well. I imagine this is what lecturers and employers do, unless they are very prejudiced.

So it would seem we agree that people assume students from TCD are intelligent and hardworking. However, I believe the same assumptions can be made from viewing results achieved in other colleges. As well as that, the assumption made about a TCD head is not always a good one. Nearly every time someone asks me where I studied and I say TCD I get judged immediately.

Do you have any concrete examples of degrees in TCD that explore more of the subject than their equivalents in other colleges? Feel free to challenge anything I said also! I think I got the gist of your post but do say if I misinterpreted and went off in a tangent! :cool:

Jonathan

0000879k wrote: »

I think we might be going a bit off topic..

If you feel that way, hit the report post button ->

Lisandro wrote: »

"A bit" is an understatement...

Do you realise that your post is the most off topic yet?

RedFFWolf

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Hmm. I agree that competition to get into TCD is higher, for the most part, than other colleges in Ireland. However, personally I have little mass on the Leaving Cert. as an indicator of intelligence. LC results can be used as a barometer to measure hard work, perhaps. However, this is not always the case either. The LC is nothing more than an exercise in memorisation and regurgitation imo.

That said, it is probable that intelligent and/or hardworking people tend to gain better results in the LC. Going on that, it may be the case that TCD has a larger percentage of intelligent and/or hardworking students than another college.

However, even if this is so, it doesn't mean that there are only unintelligent and lazy students elsewhere. Other colleges also require a hefty number of points for several courses. As well as that, someone may do poorly in school for a number of reasons, but may excel in college.

Any exams and continuous assessment submitted in college is assessed primarily by a lecturer, but further by an external examiner. The external examiners are independent of the colleges and aim to keep the standard balanced across the country. It seems likely then that a 1.1 achieved in UCC is the same as a 1.1 in TCD.

I think the perception is that TCD is better because getting in in the first place is harder. However, this has no relevance to the quality of the degree, but rather the competition for the places. The degrees are the same. I'm fairly sure content in TCD is not any more expansive or in depth than in other colleges. In my experience, it's the same. In fact, I actually preferred the teaching style in UCC

If someone looks at a CV and sees X has 500 points in the LC and a 2.1 degree in Science from UCC and Y has 500 points and a 2.1 degree in Science from TCD then I would assume they see two candidates on an equal level. They may make a judgement call further to that depending on their own perceptions i.e. they may think TCD students are more pretentious and hence prefer to hire the UCC graduate or they may think the TCD student has a better degree and prefer to hire them.

When I applied to TCD for my MA I submitted my UCC transcript, detailing what modules I had studied and a breakdown of my results. I was accepted into the course. I know of people that had the same undergrad from TCD that applied and didn't get in. In this case, TCD saw my UCC degree as having as much value as a TCD degree. Likewise, that girl I mentioned earlier got into Cambridge on the strength of her degree in UCC. I think people need to stop looking at the little black line that says TCD and start looking at the person as a whole, considering other things as well. I imagine this is what lecturers and employers do, unless they are very prejudiced.

So it would seem we agree that people assume students from TCD are intelligent and hardworking. However, I believe the same assumptions can be made from viewing results achieved in other colleges. As well as that, the assumption made about a TCD head is not always a good one. Nearly every time someone asks me where I studied and I say TCD I get judged immediately.

Do you have any concrete examples of degrees in TCD that explore more of the subject than their equivalents in other colleges? Feel free to challenge anything I said also! I think I got the gist of your post but do say if I misinterpreted and went off in a tangent! :cool:

Oh not at all! You got what I was saying, and I agree with everything you say too (especially the leaving cert and college examiners grading etc.)! I was just pointing out what others may think, and I think we're both right that in the end it will just depend on people's attitude, and you make a good point that TCD can easily stimulate a negative response (e.g., if people do believe it is for all the yuppies and that they would be arrogant). As for some concrete examples, psychology is a good example of being different in particular colleges. As far as I am aware, TCD psychology focuses more on neuroscience, while Maynooth is more behaviourist (a friend of mine studied psychology in Maynooth). I may be wrong in classifying which college is more inclined towards, but there is some difference, at least in other colleges too. I'm not too sure of the details, but there is a difference somewhere :P

Nearly every time someone asks me where I studied and I say TCD I get judged immediately.

Yup same here, some people even assumed it must be very expensive to get into TCD (as well as one of those sarcastic sounding "whooo" noises at the beginning) :P when in fairness if it wasn't for a grant, I'd never be in college!


Anyway, I feel I should answer the OP's question too.
When I started off in my first year, I knew nobody at all. I even transferred straightaway to a smaller class where everyone knew each other at that point and I still pretty much knew no one bar the odd person or two I could say hi to but never really get a chance to engage with much. Even before I knew anyone, I felt comfortable around the college. Whether walking around campus, the Arts Block or in the library for examples, I always felt like there was this nice atmosphere - as if a security around campus. Then when I actually got to know people well, then naturally enough, college was that bit better. How did I get to know them? I felt comfortable talking to them (as shy as I was back then), and they approached me too - I have never come across so many nice people bundled together in one place!

Of course, I'm sure not everyone is pleasant, and that goes for the lecturers too. Once you find your friends though, then this college may start to feel homely - it has that nice vibe to it. I'm sure other colleges have it too, but at least I can say that from my own experience, that can happen. I cannot account for many students though, (about 16,000? ) but I'm sure there are those who would say similar. And as I point out, even before you find your friends, you may feel quite comfortable being here.

I cannot vouch much for the societies and clubs. Just finding your feet in college is important, and as I write here, I'm glad to tell you OP (from my experience at least), TCD is a comfortable ground to settle on.
(No Father Jack moments: "Are those my feet!?")

Larianne

NSNO wrote: »

Commenting on the social life in Trinity without joining any clubs or socs is more than a little misleading.

Trinity's social life - perhaps more than any other college in Ireland - is heavily based in societies and clubs. I got involved in 2 in my first year and I had 2-3 events to attend nearly every week. And there are societies for everything with a ton of active, enthusiastic members and plenty of events. There is far too much great stuff (From debates, plays and comedy nights to good old-fashioned piss-ups and parties) on in a given week for anybody to go to. Haven't even mentioned the awesome range of ssports clubs but that's more because I've just eaten a take-away and more than hate myself for not going to the gym more last year . Anywho, Trinity's active societies and clubs are one of its strongest selling points and are a great way to meet new friends who like the same stuff you do.


To the OP, Trinity is a great university to go to. The campus is beautiful, not too big and you are right in the centre of the city which really can't be underestimated. As mentioned above the social life is fantastic if you get involved in wider college life, not just your course/year. The people are great too, a complete breath of fresh air from where I came from myself. There's a great, open/liberal, fun-loving atmosphere and a real pro-learning/intellectual culture that you may not have had if you are coming from a big state school like I did.

Some courses can be pretty demanding but feck it if you won't go out on the tear regularly anyway. Work hard, play hard. (Unless studying for schols in which case: Work hard, hate yourself )

I pretty much agree with everything in this post.

Lisandro

Jonathan wrote: »

Do you realise that your post is the most off topic yet?

It was a tangent, it's over now, the conversation's moved on.

Brokentime wrote: »

the Pav is a great bar, especially in the summer months.

It gets very quiet during the summer. Though if you meant that general period at the end of term that extends until the end of exams, then yes, it gets quite busy. Last year was better than this year though, mainly because of more sun.

Pet

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Hmm. I agree that competition to get into TCD is higher, for the most part, than other colleges in Ireland. However, personally I have little mass on the Leaving Cert. as an indicator of intelligence. LC results can be used as a barometer to measure hard work, perhaps. However, this is not always the case either. The LC is nothing more than an exercise in memorisation and regurgitation imo.

That said, it is probable that intelligent and/or hardworking people tend to gain better results in the LC. Going on that, it may be the case that TCD has a larger percentage of intelligent and/or hardworking students than another college.

However, even if this is so, it doesn't mean that there are only unintelligent and lazy students elsewhere. Other colleges also require a hefty number of points for several courses. As well as that, someone may do poorly in school for a number of reasons, but may excel in college.

Any exams and continuous assessment submitted in college is assessed primarily by a lecturer, but further by an external examiner. The external examiners are independent of the colleges and aim to keep the standard balanced across the country. It seems likely then that a 1.1 achieved in UCC is the same as a 1.1 in TCD.

I think the perception is that TCD is better because getting in in the first place is harder. However, this has no relevance to the quality of the degree, but rather the competition for the places. The degrees are the same. I'm fairly sure content in TCD is not any more expansive or in depth than in other colleges. In my experience, it's the same. In fact, I actually preferred the teaching style in UCC

If someone looks at a CV and sees X has 500 points in the LC and a 2.1 degree in Science from UCC and Y has 500 points and a 2.1 degree in Science from TCD then I would assume they see two candidates on an equal level. They may make a judgement call further to that depending on their own perceptions i.e. they may think TCD students are more pretentious and hence prefer to hire the UCC graduate or they may think the TCD student has a better degree and prefer to hire them.

When I applied to TCD for my MA I submitted my UCC transcript, detailing what modules I had studied and a breakdown of my results. I was accepted into the course. I know of people that had the same undergrad from TCD that applied and didn't get in. In this case, TCD saw my UCC degree as having as much value as a TCD degree. Likewise, that girl I mentioned earlier got into Cambridge on the strength of her degree in UCC. I think people need to stop looking at the little black line that says TCD and start looking at the person as a whole, considering other things as well. I imagine this is what lecturers and employers do, unless they are very prejudiced.

So it would seem we agree that people assume students from TCD are intelligent and hardworking. However, I believe the same assumptions can be made from viewing results achieved in other colleges. As well as that, the assumption made about a TCD head is not always a good one. Nearly every time someone asks me where I studied and I say TCD I get judged immediately.

Do you have any concrete examples of degrees in TCD that explore more of the subject than their equivalents in other colleges? Feel free to challenge anything I said also! I think I got the gist of your post but do say if I misinterpreted and went off in a tangent! :cool:

You're not gonna like this, but: I had a friend in UCC science, and we often compared notes. The stuff he was doing in 3rd year, I had done in 2nd. The stuff he was doing in 4th year, I had done in 3rd, and his course was more specialised than mine. That's purely an anecdote and it's not possible to make inferences based on that, but really, if you think for a second that UCC is as academic a university as Trinity, you're fooling yourself. You said it yourself: TCD attracts people who love to study. It's far more academic, the standard is higher, and that's why it's always top of the rankings. That's just how it is. There's nothing pretentious about stating a fact. Is Cambridge not a better university than Glasgow? And does Cambridge's being better mean that Glasgow is somehow bad? The same applies to Trinity and UCC - nobody's saying it's bad, but Trinity is better.

gutenberg

For humanities courses, the fact that TCD's course is four years also makes a big difference versus universities like UCC, as you get to take more specialised courses than you would in a three year programme. These courses are the real reason you do an Arts degree (lots of close reading, really engaging with secondary material, primary sources for historians, etc.) In addition, because TCD doesn't have an omnibus Arts course, the courses tend to be a lot more focused: you don't have people taking Subject X as their third/fourth subject, so the courses can be targeted to a higher level. As well then, and this can be a positive or a negative depending on your view, but because TCD doesn't really have a lot of opportunities for study outside your primary subject (aside from one option on the Broad Curriculum), Trinity degrees are highly focused and really try to get you engaged in huge depth with your subject.

So I agree with Pet. Both the students themselves and the course structure makes Trinity a very academic university. I agree with him that it doesn't make any other university inferior, just different, and TCD really emphasizes academics versus other things (though the social side is excellent too: work hard, play hard!).

ViveLaVie

Pet wrote: »

You're not gonna like this, but: I had a friend in UCC science, and we often compared notes. The stuff he was doing in 3rd year, I had done in 2nd. The stuff he was doing in 4th year, I had done in 3rd, and his course was more specialised than mine. That's purely an anecdote and it's not possible to make inferences based on that, but really, if you think for a second that UCC is as academic a university as Trinity, you're fooling yourself. You said it yourself: TCD attracts people who love to study. It's far more academic, the standard is higher, and that's why it's always top of the rankings. That's just how it is. There's nothing pretentious about stating a fact. Is Cambridge not a better university than Glasgow? And does Cambridge's being better mean that Glasgow is somehow bad? The same applies to Trinity and UCC - nobody's saying it's bad, but Trinity is better.

Trinity has fallen considerably in the rankings in the last few years. The rankings also consider factors such as funding, research and foreign students. It's not all based on quality of teaching.

Obviously I can't comment on your particular course and the differences you found between it and its UCC counterpart. However, in my experience, and I actually did a course in both colleges rather than just compare notes, there was no real difference. The standard was no better.

I'm not saying it isn't a good college and nor am I saying it doesn't deserve its position as the best Irish university. I'm saying the elitism displayed by some of the students in TCD is uncalled for. I never said UCC was as academic. In fact I pointed out that TCD has a more academic vibe to it. I also pointed out that UCC students are more likely to go out drinking. I personally think there's more to the college experience than what TCD caters for.

At the end of the day a degree is a degree. You have a 1.1. in Medicine from TCD? Doesn't make you better or more knowledgeable than a 1.1 degree recipient from UCC. What it does mean is that you have attained the same level of competency at degree level. As I already said, the degree marks are confirmed by external examiners in order to ensure they are in keeping with national and international standards.

I find your last comment a good example of the kind of intellectual elitism some TCD heads are fond of.

gutenberg wrote: »

For humanities courses, the fact that TCD's course is four years also makes a big difference versus universities like UCC, as you get to take more specialised courses than you would in a three year programme. These courses are the real reason you do an Arts degree (lots of close reading, really engaging with secondary material, primary sources for historians, etc.) In addition, because TCD doesn't have an omnibus Arts course, the courses tend to be a lot more focused: you don't have people taking Subject X as their third/fourth subject, so the courses can be targeted to a higher level. As well then, and this can be a positive or a negative depending on your view, but because TCD doesn't really have a lot of opportunities for study outside your primary subject (aside from one option on the Broad Curriculum), Trinity degrees are highly focused and really try to get you engaged in huge depth with your subject.

So I agree with Pet. Both the students themselves and the course structure makes Trinity a very academic university. I agree with him that it doesn't make any other university inferior, just different, and TCD really emphasizes academics versus other things (though the social side is excellent too: work hard, play hard!).

I actually did a Humanities course in both colleges. In no way was my three year degree seen as inferior to its TCD counterpart. Yes, TCD degrees are longer but I don't necessarily agree that it makes them better. I actually spoke to my lecturer about this and she was of the opinion that a degree in X from UCC, despite it being completed in only three years as opposed to four, put you on equal footing with a graduate of the same degree in TCD. She said that really it made very little difference. A degree in a subject is a degree. They are both Level 8s. I was accepted into the postgraduate course while some people with the equivalent primary degree from TCD were not. I can only assume that this meant that their degree was not seen as superior in any way.

That wasn't the reason I did an Arts degree. I did it for choice and flexibility. I actually think it's an advantage to study more than one or two subjects. The additional two subjects I did in first year have been hugely beneficial to me academically. Really, Arts degrees teach you a specific skill set and how to think critically. Spending a bit more time on specific modules might give you a slightly more in-depth knowledge of the subject but this skill set should be equally exploited in UCC as in TCD. Just my thoughts.

andrew

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I'm not saying it isn't a good college and nor am I saying it doesn't deserve its position as the best Irish university. I'm saying the elitism displayed by some of the students in TCD is uncalled for. I never said UCC was as academic. In fact I pointed out that TCD has a more academic vibe to it. I also pointed out that UCC students are more likely to go out drinking. I personally think there's more to the college experience than what TCD caters for.

At the end of the day a degree is a degree. You have a 1.1. in Medicine from TCD? Doesn't make you better or more knowledgeable than a 1.1 degree recipient from UCC. What it does mean is that you have attained the same level of competency at degree level. As I already said, the degree marks are confirmed by external examiners in order to ensure they are in keeping with national and international standards.

How can you admit on the one hand that Trinity is the best university in Ireland, but then go on to say that that has no baring whatsoever on the quality of degree that you get. A first from Trinity is better than a first from a less well ranked college, in the same way that a first from Oxford is better than a first from Trinity, and a first from Harvard is better than a first from anywhere else. The idea that a degree is a degree amounts to the idea that all colleges are the same and it doesn't matter where you go ignores the vast differences between colleges, which you've already admitted exist.
And in no way to external examiners keep the quality of firsts uniform between colleges, there's simply no mechanism in place in order to ensure that's the case. It's not like there's a marking conference they all attend.

I actually did a Humanities course in both colleges. In no way was my three year degree seen as inferior to its TCD counterpart. Yes, TCD degrees are longer but I don't necessarily agree that it makes them better. I actually spoke to my lecturer about this and she was of the opinion that a degree in X from UCC, despite it being completed in only three years as opposed to four, put you on equal footing with a graduate of the same degree in TCD. She said that really it made very little difference. A degree in a subject is a degree. They are both Level 8s. I was accepted into the postgraduate course while some people with the equivalent primary degree from TCD were not. I can only assume that this meant that their degree was not seen as superior in any way.

I don't see how the heck an entire extra year of education and the associated 60 credit hours could have no impact on someone's degree. That's literally impossible, unless either) all a 4 year course did was take a 3 year course and split the final year into two or b) 3 year courses manage to squeeze 120 credit hours into 3 year, which isn't what happens. All your acceptance into a postgrad course over people from Trinity indicates is that one's degree isn't everything, and that a number of factors went into determining who got places in that postgrad course.

mariecxx

i know a lot of people who have left because of the snobbery

andrew

mariecxx wrote: »

i know a lot of people who have left because of the snobbery

I find that pretty hard to believe, if anything it's nerdy and dorky, not snobby. Was it actually the case that they were passing their exams but left anyway?

ViveLaVie

andrew wrote: »

How can you admit on the one hand that Trinity is the best university in Ireland, but then go on to say that that has no baring whatsoever on the quality of degree that you get. A first from Trinity is better than a first from a less well ranked college, in the same way that a first from Oxford is better than a first from Trinity, and a first from Cambridge is better than a first from anywhere else. The idea that a degree is a degree amounts to the idea that all colleges are the same and it doesn't matter where you go ignores the vast differences between colleges, which you've already admitted exist.
And in no way to external examiners keep the quality of firsts uniform between colleges, there's simply no mechanism in place in order to ensure that's the case. It's not like there's a marking conference they all attend.

Fixed your post

I don't think there is a big difference in the quality of degree. I think Trinity is harder to get into. I think Trinity has a better reputation historically. Trinity is ranked better than the other colleges in Ireland for more than the quality of its teaching.

Put it another way. Is a 2.1 degree in Trinity better than a 1.1 in another university? I would say no. There are people who would say I'm wrong, that any degree in TCD is better than any degree elsewhere in Ireland. This is the kind of elitism I don't have time for.

All colleges are the same in that they award the same degrees. These degrees have national and international standards. It might be more difficult to get into a 'better' college but the opportunity to fully engage with your discipline is the same everywhere. What is it that makes TCD degrees better? The lecturers? The content? The marking standard?

andrew wrote: »

I don't see how the heck an entire extra year of education and the associated 60 credit hours could have no impact on someone's degree. That's literally impossible, unless either) all a 4 year course did was take a 3 year course and split the final year into two or b) 3 year courses manage to squeeze 120 credit hours into 3 year, which isn't what happens. All your acceptance into a postgrad course over people from Trinity indicates is that one's degree isn't everything, and that a number of factors went into determining who got places in that postgrad course.

I think it makes you more knowledgeable in a specialised area but I don't think that the skills you have acquired are any better than those acquired in a shorter degree. Someone could have a 1.1. degree in History from UCC and be absolutely brilliant, as is the girl I mentioned in an earlier post. Equally somebody might have a 1.1 degree in History from TCD but might not be half as brilliant. Does the second person have a better degree? I don't think so.

Colleges take other factors into consideration when accepting postgraduate applications because they recognise that the modules studied and the length of the degree are not everything. The other factors involved in my application were a sample of my writing and references from my lecturers. What do they indicate? How you apply the skills you learned, the level to which you engage critically with a topic and how you have contributed to classes with your lecturers. How you use the skills acquired in a degree is perhaps more important than having studied an extra sixty credits of Medieval History.

gutenberg

FFS there's no such thing as a '1.1' degree. It's a First, or do they not teach you that in UCC?