Blog about Soviet memorials

DaveyCakes

Hi all, I've started writing a blog about Soviet war memorials/museums/etc. I have thousands of photos from my travels so I thought it would be a good idea to put some up on the web. There isn't a huge amount of content yet as I've been wrestling with the mechanics of writing a blog....I mistakenly assumed that things like placing images would be relatively simple:eek:. I hope to add a lot more to it in the coming weeks. Anyway, hopefully some of you will have a look, any comments always welcome.

http://mamayevkurgan.wordpress.com/

jonniebgood1

Good reading. It is interesting to see how Soviet memorials to WWII are treated in different countries. Several have been removed as populist governments try and boost their support without any acknowledgement of what they are doing.

BlaasForRafa

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Good reading. It is interesting to see how Soviet memorials to WWII are treated in different countries. Several have been removed as populist governments try and boost their support without any acknowledgement of what they are doing.

Populist governments? You mean governments voted for by their people?...unlike the Soviets of course. A lot of monuments were imposed on countries as Soviet propagandistic expressions of dominance and oppression, I wouldn't blame people one bit for trying to remove the memories of communist occupation.

jonniebgood1

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Populist governments? You mean governments voted for by their people?...unlike the Soviets of course. A lot of monuments were imposed on countries as Soviet propagandistic expressions of dominance and oppression, I wouldn't blame people one bit for trying to remove the memories of communist occupation.

Given that this is the WWII forum you might not have to look to far to see that a government "voted for by their people" might not be the golden egg that you think it is.

The removal of a WWII statue because of subsequent Soviet rule is mixing up 2 seperate entities to promote a governments popular vote. Consider the removal of Talinns war memorial. You say "I wouldn't blame people one bit for trying to remove the memories of communist occupation", what about the removal of a war memorial that is representative of soldiers sacrifice.

DaveyCakes

Most memorials, and especially Red Army cemeteries, are actually pretty well maintained, even in countries in which anti-Russian feeling can be common. The Bronze statue of Tallinn was moved away from the city centre to a well-tended cemetery. One of the clauses of the treaty under which Soviet forces were withdrawn from the former GDR after German reunification mandates that the German state will maintain all memorials and graveyards. I'll pop a post about the museum and memorial at the Seelow Heights in my blog sometime in the next few days.

BlaasForRafa

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Given that this is the WWII forum you might not have to look to far to see that a government "voted for by their people" might not be the golden egg that you think it is.

Yeah like the Third Reich is indicative of ALL democracies, way to Godwin the thread after 4 posts.

The removal of a WWII statue because of subsequent Soviet rule is mixing up 2 seperate entities to promote a governments popular vote. Consider the removal of Talinns war memorial. You say "I wouldn't blame people one bit for trying to remove the memories of communist occupation", what about the removal of a war memorial that is representative of soldiers sacrifice.

You seem to have forgotten that the Soviet Union invaded the Baltic states in 1940 and proceeded to impose Stalinist rule on the states, deporting tens of thousands and executing thousands of the intelligentsia and so called political opponents. Many countries didn't want soviet soldiers "sacrificing" themselves for their countries, the Balts certainly fought like hell to keep the soviets out.

Canvasser

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yeah like the Third Reich is indicative of ALL democracies, way to Godwin the thread after 4 posts.



You seem to have forgotten that the Soviet Union invaded the Baltic states in 1940 and proceeded to impose Stalinist rule on the states, deporting tens of thousands and executing thousands of the intelligentsia and so called political opponents. Many countries didn't want soviet soldiers "sacrificing" themselves for their countries, the Balts certainly fought like hell to keep the soviets out.

No they didn't.

Anyway are you saying those countries shouldn't honour Red Army soldiers who died to free europe from the nazi genocide?

BlaasForRafa

Canvasser wrote: »

No they didn't.

Anyway are you saying those countries shouldn't honour Red Army soldiers who died to free europe from the nazi genocide?

I'm saying they shouldn't be obligated to memorialise Red Army soldiers who committed untold numbers of war crimes in the countries they occupied.

Canvasser

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm saying they shouldn't be obligated to memorialise Red Army soldiers who committed untold numbers of war crimes in the countries they occupied.

Untold numbers? Right

BlaasForRafa

Canvasser wrote: »

Untold numbers? Right

I suppose you think the soviets were pure as the driven snow....

jonniebgood1

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Originally Posted by jonniebgood1
The removal of a WWII statue because of subsequent Soviet rule is mixing up 2 seperate entities to promote a governments popular vote. Consider the removal of Talinns war memorial. You say "I wouldn't blame people one bit for trying to remove the memories of communist occupation", what about the removal of a war memorial that is representative of soldiers sacrifice.

You seem to have forgotten that the Soviet Union invaded the Baltic states in 1940 and proceeded to impose Stalinist rule on the states, deporting tens of thousands and executing thousands of the intelligentsia and so called political opponents. Many countries didn't want soviet soldiers "sacrificing" themselves for their countries, the Balts certainly fought like hell to keep the soviets out.

I don't aim to be trite but you need to read a post before replying to it.

I identified the problem of mixing up 2 seperate entities in the case of Talinn and you jump in and equivocate Stalinist rule with the sacrifice of ordinary red army soldiers. I ask with genuine purpose that you answer, was the statue in Tallinn city of Stalin?

jonniebgood1

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm saying they shouldn't be obligated to memorialise Red Army soldiers who committed untold numbers of war crimes in the countries they occupied.

Since when does a memorial to soldiers sacrifice mean that people are as you put it "obligated" to honour it.

Do you really believe that a memorial can only exist if 100% of people in that country support the memorial. I don't see where you are going with this?

karma_

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Since when does a memorial to soldiers sacrifice mean that people are as you put it "obligated" to honour it.

Do you really believe that a memorial can only exist if 100% of people in that country support the memorial. I don't see where you are going with this?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer, that particular poster managed to derail an interesting thread within three posts, and completely ruined it within ten by going off on a political rant.

BlaasForRafa

DaveyCakes wrote: »

Hi all, I've started writing a blog about Soviet war memorials/museums/etc. I have thousands of photos from my travels so I thought it would be a good idea to put some up on the web. There isn't a huge amount of content yet as I've been wrestling with the mechanics of writing a blog....I mistakenly assumed that things like placing images would be relatively simple:eek:. I hope to add a lot more to it in the coming weeks. Anyway, hopefully some of you will have a look, any comments always welcome.

http://mamayevkurgan.wordpress.com/

I should have mentioned before the thread got derailed that your blog is impressive and I hope you keep up the good work.

jonniebgood1

karma_ wrote: »

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer, that particular poster managed to derail an interesting thread within three posts, and completely ruined it within ten by going off on a political rant.

Indeed. Still waiting which perhaps tells more than an answer would! It is important to try and put perspective on this sort of issue, without this we won't learn from our history.

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

No they didn't.

Anyway are you saying those countries shouldn't honour Red Army soldiers who died to free europe from the nazi genocide?

Out of the frying-pan into the fire sums it up for me.

Snickers Man

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Since when does a memorial to soldiers sacrifice mean that people are as you put it "obligated" to honour it.

Do you really believe that a memorial can only exist if 100% of people in that country support the memorial. I don't see where you are going with this?

Just came across this thread and am enjoying the naivete enormously.

Now the people you really need to ask about all these memorials are the people in countries like Poland, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc. I have no connection to any of these countries but I am familiar with some of the parallels they have with THIS country, and the whole way in which some people are trying to make an issue out of COmmemoration.

For many of them, it's not enough that such memorials and statues exist here. They must be visited and venerated by anybody of any importance regularly and often.

For example: Have a look at this rant from Kevin Myers recently, following a ceremony to "remember" RIC and DMP casualties of the War of Independence.

It follows a familiar line that he and several of his ilk have trodden before. "Where were all the rest of you? Why weren't the government here? Where's your poppy? HOW DARE YOU NOT SEE THINGS THE WAY WE DO!!!"

That, after all, is what the "CO" in "Commemoration" is all about. Finding common ground that we all share. But maybe we don't all see historical events the same way. Maybe some of us regard both world wars as slightly more complex than doing down the dastardly Hun. And maybe we don't all want to be seen to be getting too close to people whose viewpoints we inherently distrust.

I have long thought that a good answer to "Why don't you thank the British Army and those who served in it for saving Europe?" would be to say "Well, why don't you go into a Polish social club and say 'Let's all thank that nice Josef Stalin and his army for all he did in liberating Poland!'"?

You do that, you deserve a Victoria Cross because they would probably beat you to death with an empty vodka bottle. And you would deserve it.

If you wonder why, then I suggest you google events like Katyn and the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. In the former case, the Soviets murdered thousands of Polish middle class people following the invasion of Eastern Poland in cahoots with the Nazis.

In the latter example, the Soviets at the gates of Warsaw sat back and refused to help as the Polish people rose up in an attempt to support the liberation of their capital city from the German occupiers. Not only did Stalin refuse to help the Poles, he refused to allow the Western Allies to fly in supplies either. He was thinking ahead to the next play.

He knew that there would be a power struggle in Poland between left and right following the Nazi eviction and he was making damned sure the left were going to win. Why go to all the hassle of putting them down (and carting them off to the forest to execute a second generation) when the Nazis would do the job for him?

Which they did. Thousands of Poles died in the futile fighting for Warsaw.

And you seriously wonder why Polish people might be ambivalent about heaping praise and gratitude on the Soviets???

As I say, I'm not Polish or indeed Eastern European at all. I would be very interested to hear what any Polish people might think about this.

And please. Anybody who feels the bile rising and thinks I may have Godwinned the discussion, I said there were "parallels" between our country and the smaller ones in Eastern Europe. Not equivalencies.

But I think I know where the reluctant "commemorators" are coming from.

Canvasser

The Warsaw uprising was a fight between German fascism and Polish fascism. Why should the Soviets have intervened? It was better just to let them kill each other off.

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

The Warsaw uprising was a fight between German fascism and Polish fascism. Why should the Soviets have intervened? It was better just to let them kill each other off.

I doubt those involved in the Warsaw uprising against the Germans were all fascists. There must have been a mish-mash of political views set aside temporarily for one common purpose.

Even communist Russian soldiers were expendable, so the Russians wouldn't give a damn about any Polish communists killed in the uprising. At that stage, the Russians probably had a good pool of Polish communists with them, enough to administer a Polish communist state on the Russians' behalf after the war was over.

Snickers Man

Canvasser wrote: »

The Warsaw uprising was a fight between German fascism and Polish fascism.

By Stalin's definition of what constituted a "Fascist" it probably was.

How's his world view doing nowadays?

Cryogen

Soviet Monument,Novosibirsk celebrating soviet homosexuality overcoming fascism

jonniebgood1

Canvasser wrote: »

The Warsaw uprising was a fight between German fascism and Polish fascism. Why should the Soviets have intervened? It was better just to let them kill each other off.

The uprising also had support from Warsaw communist and Jewish survivors. It is not accurate to portray it as simply "Polish fascism". The reasons why the Soviets did not intervene are often misunderstood but having studied them they are rational.

Canvasser

ejmaztec wrote: »

Out of the frying-pan into the fire sums it up for me.

Ridiculous. After the Warsaw Uprising you talk about the SS murdered about 100,000 civillians in revenge and demolished most of the city. But yeah that happened all the time in Warsaw in the 1970s too:rolleyes:

Snickers Man

Canvasser wrote: »

Ridiculous. After the Warsaw Uprising you talk about the SS murdered about 100,000 civillians in revenge and demolished most of the city. But yeah that happened all the time in Warsaw in the 1970s too:rolleyes:

Only 20,000 or so Polish civilians (at least) systematically murdered by the Soviets in Katyn. Which the Soviets never fessed up to until Gorbachev's day but the Poles knew who the culprits were.

So that makes the Soviets an order of magnitude more kindly, touchy feely, altruistic and concerned about the welfare of the Polish people as a whole than those horrid Nazis.

Is that your point?

There are not enough :rolleyes: symbols to express my distaste for your line of logic.

Canvasser

Snickers Man wrote: »

Only 20,000 or so Polish civilians (at least) systematically murdered by the Soviets in Katyn. Which the Soviets never fessed up to until Gorbachev's day but the Poles knew who the culprits were.

So that makes the Soviets an order of magnitude more kindly, touchy feely, altruistic and concerned about the welfare of the Polish people as a whole than those horrid Nazis.

Is that your point?

There are not enough :rolleyes: symbols to express my distaste for your line of logic.

The obsession with Katyn by anti-Communist bigots is really disturbing. A few thousand fascist Polish military officers were executed. Yes it's wrong but in the grand scheme of WW2 it's nothing. The nazis killed 6 million Poles in WW2 but the Soviets are just as bad because they executed some enemy soldiers in 1940? Every combatant in WW2 carried out massacres even your beloved British Empire. You may not like like my logic but at least I have logic. You only have anti-Soviet bigotry.

Anyone who compares Poland 1945-1989 to Poland under Nazi occupation should not be taken seriously.

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

The obsession with Katyn by anti-Communist bigots is really disturbing. A few thousand fascist Polish military officers were executed. Yes it's wrong but in the grand scheme of WW2 it's nothing. The nazis killed 6 million Poles in WW2 but the Soviets are just as bad because they executed some enemy soldiers in 1940? Every combatant in WW2 carried out massacres even your beloved British Empire. You may not like like my logic but at least I have logic. You only have anti-Soviet bigotry.

Anyone who compares Poland 1945-1989 to Poland under Nazi occupation should not be taken seriously.

I think that sums up your posts, because you seem to be looking at everything through rose red-tinted glasses. Your perspective is truly unique.

Many communists in the Soviet bloc got off lightly when the Soviet Union fell apart, and should be grateful for the new regimes drawing the line with, on the whole, a general amnesty. The result of 70 years of repressive communism is summed up below, something that you'll tell us is bigoted anti-soviet propaganda.


http://czech.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/node/644

Because of the foundation's work, a monument to communism's 100 million victims now stands on Capitol Hill, the online Global Museum on Communism exists, and the development of school curricula on the subject of communism is now in progress

Canvasser

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think that sums up your posts, because you seem to be looking at everything through rose red-tinted glasses. Your perspective is truly unique.

Many communists in the Soviet bloc got off lightly when the Soviet Union fell apart, and should be grateful for the new regimes drawing the line with, on the whole, a general amnesty. The result of 70 years of repressive communism is summed up below, something that you'll tell us is bigoted anti-soviet propaganda.


http://czech.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/node/644

That's not a serious website or a serious museum. In fact it's a joke. That "museum" is owned by a far right American businessman and millionaire. It's nothing but anti-communist propaganda. No Czech people take it seriously. It's solely for ignorant American tourists. It is located above a McDonalds FFS! Many Czech people today still vote for the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia.

Your knowledge of the Soviet Union is limited to purely Cold War propaganda. You're about as educated as a Tea Party bigot who lives in a trailer park in Alabama. The majority of of people in Russia, Ukraine, Moldova etc who are old enough to remember the Soviet Union will say that things were much better back then.

Canvasser

Cryogen wrote: »

Soviet Monument,Novosibirsk celebrating soviet homosexuality overcoming fascism

I'm sure many Soviet homosexuals killed nazis. Fair play to them.

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

That's not a serious website or a serious meseum. In fact it's a joke. That "museum" is owned by a far right American businessman and millionaire. It's nothing but anti-communist propaganda. No Czech people take it seriously. It's solely for ignorant American tourists. It is located above a McDonalds FFS! Many Czech people today still vote for the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia.

Your knowledge of the Soviet Union is limited to purely Cold War propaganda. You're about as educated as a Tea Party bigot who lives in a trailer park in Alabama. The majority of of people in Russia, Ukraine, Moldova etc who are old enough to remember the Soviet Union will say that things were much better back then.

The old die-hard communist party members and their brainwashed families are hardly likely to vote for anyone else. They've never been the same since they lost their privileged positions in society, the society that was supposedly "equal". They've been sulking for 22 years. Many of them keep a low profile, just in case someone wants to make an issue of their past crimes, like operating uranium mines staffed by anti-communist dissidents, or any other people seen as undesirables in the eyes of the regime.

The Soviet-Union was the ultimate hypocrisy.

It's obvious to me that you don't understand the reality of the situation, in any way shape or form.

markas

Interesting blog.. and even more interesting thread

I am not a historian, and not particularily interested in WWII, but happen to live in Poland for some time, so I can provide a comment of a casual folk, not really interested in political discussion (in case it would affect oppinions). As such, I have spotted few heavy faults here. Perhaps a chronological order would help best understand attitude of locals to these monuments;

- "Polish fascizm" - that's rather unheard in Poland. If it existed before WWII was rather marginal and short lived. Not to be confused with "sanacja" aiming at restoriation and preserving still very weak country - especially vulnerable against Soviet Russia (see Polish-Soviet wars) and later Nazi Germany. Calling 'fascizm' in context of Warsaw uprising may cause a lot of confusion, at best. It is true though, that Polish politicians (see Pilsudski) had at the time some 'imperialistic' ambitions - they wanted to form a federation of new formed weak central european countries to prevent new invasions from the West or East.

- Not without importance was long history with Russia, rarely peaceful. Polish 'average Joe' new better what was happening in early Soviet Russia (forbidding religion, nationalisation of land, massive starvation, no need to understand politics really for catholic and farming country men). The fact that Soviets invaded half of the country just 16 days after Germans should not be ommitted. The same Red Army Poland fought with few years before (see Warsaw battle) and which supposedly liberated the country later.

- I think in minds of most people, at least in Poland, there was no sense of freedom for the next over 50 years. The country was created and controlled by Soviet Russia. There was no acceptance of this fact (as in the west), but rather understanding of the hopless situation. There was absolutely no setiment for Soviet 'liberators'. The monuments were created as places of forced cult of Soviet Russia (places of celebration of communist events), and this was clear to all. Could not be openly resisted. This is nothing to do with Russian people - there were the biggest victims of the communist party regime.

- Propaganda - Education system was naturally affected. Not that people belived it in Poland, but heavily censored particuralily history had no alternative. No such thing like free press. No access to western sources (Iron Curtain) Eg. 'Katyn' officially did not exist, as any of soviet crimes against humanity. I am not surprised by people actually living in Soviet union, that they still prize Red Army - 'Pabieda' was and still is a symbol of tryumph and superiority of the Soviet Russia (edit: and TOTALY marginalizing the role of the Allied forces). A symbol uniting the soviet nations against the new enemy - the western world - for the next 50 years, but also reminding them about the power of it. Beware that many sources and definately many minds will be heavily affected still by such propaganda. Mind also, that those who were not accepting Communist Peace were doomed for extinction.

The monument themselves were built usually in prime locations in every town and city, regardless if there were actually any important struglees of RA there (BTW - Polish Army battles were wiped out from public memory and the soldiers prosecuted). These were monuments of Soviet domination, and understandingly were put away when not needed anymore, to better use the space. I have not heard about any any anti-Russian event accompanying removing these symbols. The actual monuments and places of rest of soldiers were not touched to my knowledge.

Canvasser

ejmaztec wrote: »

The old die-hard communist party members and their brainwashed families are hardly likely to vote for anyone else. They've never been the same since they lost their privileged positions in society, the society that was supposedly "equal". They've been sulking for 22 years. Many of them keep a low profile, just in case someone wants to make an issue of their past crimes, like operating uranium mines staffed by anti-communist dissidents, or any other people seen as undesirables in the eyes of the regime.

The Soviet-Union was the ultimate hypocrisy.

It's obvious to me that you don't understand the reality of the situation, in any way shape or form.

Stick to watching Top Gun and leave the history alone. Good man.

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

Stick to watching Top Gun and leave the history alone. Good man.

I was expecting some entertaining 1950s Soviet rhetoric as a response, or at least a bit of shoe-banging, and am sorely disappointed at the barrel-scraping to which you have resorted.

Snickers Man

Canvasser wrote: »

A few thousand fascist Polish military officers were executed. Yes it's wrong but in the grand scheme of WW2 it's nothing.

Of course not. Impertinent of me to have brought it up, really. What's a couple of tens of thousands of deaths in a systematic mass culling in its proper context? There are, of course, times when this sort of thing is totally justified. All right-thinking left-thinking people would agree.

And it wasn't just "fascist military officers" killed at Katyn either. Though bearing in mind that "fascist" in Jo Stalin's vocabulary meant "anyone who doesn't agree with me all the time on absolutely everything". Even Zinoviev, Kamenev and Trotsky were condemned as fascists by Uncle Jo.

A good half of those liquidated at Katyn were either policemen or members of the middle class intelligentsia: industrialists, lawyers, university faculty, writers etc etc It was an attempt by Stalin to return Poland to a sort of "year zero" from which the remaining lumpen proletariat could be indoctrinated, or intimidated into a proper sense of themselves as citizens of the new Soviet heaven on earth.

Now remember that the original theme of this thread was commemoration of the actions of the Soviet Union and its armies in the Second World War. A sub context was the attitude to the Red Army of people in areas outside the Soviet Union or even outside of modern day Russia.

Some of us speculated on how people from Poland, to take just one example, might have cause to remember the actions of the Soviet Union in WWII with something less than warm and cuddly fondness.

You seem to regard their hesitance as the sulky resentment of selfish, unintelligent, ahistorical ingrates.

I look on it as heroic, representative of a realistic appraisal of history and something that we in this country, admittedly with a much less fraught WWII experience in comparison, could learn from.

Canvasser wrote:

You're about as educated as a Tea Party bigot who lives in a trailer park in Alabama.

Good solidarity with the poorest section of the American proletariat there, comrade.

Canvasser wrote: »

You may not like like my logic but at least I have logic. You only have anti-Soviet bigotry.

I don't think I'd like anything about you at all, to be honest.

Manic Moran

Canvasser wrote: »

Your knowledge of the Soviet Union is limited to purely Cold War propaganda. You're about as educated as a Tea Party bigot who lives in a trailer park in Alabama.

I happen to know a very well educated Tea Party bigot who lives in a trailer park in Alabama. You do seem to like that word.

I'm trying to sort out a general 'military forum' ban here, there seems to be some glitch with the system.

Manic Moran

OK, the good folks over at the moderators forum have helped me out. Canvasser's ban is now valid for the entire military forum for the remaining week of his vacation.

DaveyCakes

I just wanted people to look at my nice pictures

ejmaztec

DaveyCakes wrote: »

I just wanted people to look at my nice pictures

That'll teach you.:p

markas

DaveyCakes wrote: »

I just wanted people to look at my nice pictures

The WWII has not quite finished yet - the topic is still hot (vide: Katyn) and probably its to early to treat the monuments solely as a turist attraction. Better stick to WWI for now

ejmaztec

Canvasser wrote: »

Ridiculous. After the Warsaw Uprising you talk about the SS murdered about 100,000 civillians in revenge and demolished most of the city. But yeah that happened all the time in Warsaw in the 1970s too:rolleyes:

Never mind about the 70s, the dirty was being done long before then.

From 1945 to 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 Poles, of which 585,000 may have died. Hundreds of thousands and possibly near 1,000,000 Poles were killed in Soviet terror and repression

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.ADDENDA.HTM


No doubt "Yankee imperialist anti-soviet propaganda":pac:, made up to hide the fact that Poland, under communist rule, was a veritable Utopia.

If Poland were some communist paradise, I'm pretty sure that the communists would have secured landslide victories in all of the elections that have taken place since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

jonniebgood1

ejmaztec wrote: »

If Poland were some communist paradise, I'm pretty sure that the communists would have secured landslide victories in all of the elections that have taken place since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It should be recognised that one of the main reasons for the installing of a Soviet controlled regime in Poland (and other eastern European countries) was to protect Russia against possible future attack. Having been attacked in 2 world wars inside 30 years and suffered more losses than any other country it is to my mind understandable (Note: not excusable) that this buffer zone be created. Regarding elections I don't know of 2 many countries where people vote in governments to provide paradise!

ejmaztec

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It should be recognised that one of the main reasons for the installing of a Soviet controlled regime in Poland (and other eastern European countries) was to protect Russia against possible future attack. Having been attacked in 2 world wars inside 30 years and suffered more losses than any other country it is to my mind understandable (Note: not excusable) that this buffer zone be created. Regarding elections I don't know of 2 many countries where people vote in governments to provide paradise!

I've always felt that the "buffer-zone" was a feeble excuse to some way justify their taking over those countries, and that they simply took advantage of the situation to expand their area of influence. I think that they also had eyes on Austria and Greece?

I think we all know that paradise doesn't appear much, if at all, in election manifestos

jonniebgood1

ejmaztec wrote: »

I've always felt that the "buffer-zone" was a feeble excuse to some way justify their taking over those countries, and that they simply took advantage of the situation to expand their area of influence. I think that they also had eyes on Austria and Greece?
(

Maybe it was an excuse but it's hard to know given their disproportionate losses in wwii.
The fate of Greece was actually tied with that of Poland. Stalin agreed to not lay claim to Greece in an agreement with Churchill at one of the big three meetings, in return he got Poland. Blunt as that.