20 Cigarettes from €9 to €15 in the next six years

Biggins

It seems that the cigs might just be getting even more expensive in the years to come.

From The Sunday Times (England)

JAMES REILLY wants to step up his campaign against smoking by increasing the price of 20 cigarettes from €9 to €15 in the next six years.

The health minister made the proposal to Michael Noonan, the minister for finance, in the run-up to the last budget as a “shock value” tactic to reduce the number of smokers in Ireland. The Department of Finance opposed the plan on the basis that it would increase cigarette smuggling, pointing out the state is already losing €250m a year in revenue to the illicit tobacco trade.

Link: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1081790.ece

“I am proposing, therefore, an increase of €1 on a pack of 20 cigarettes (an 11.5% increase) for 2012. In addition, I am proposing an increase of €0.80 on a pouch of tobacco sufficient to make 25 cigarettes (19% increase).

“In addition to the increase for 2012, I propose that an annual increase in the order of €1 be applied for the next five years to the price of cigarettes and roll-your-own tobacco.

“This would send a strong public-health message to all smokers, whereas a once-off annual increase would not be as effective as a ‘shock value’ tactic. I hope you will give strong consideration to the changes in excise duties as outlined above.”

Non-smoker myself - so I'm neutral on the expense, won't effect me.
However will smokers be up in arms about this?

4zn76tysfajdxp

It'll only drive more smokers to black-market under-the-table dealers





Yes it will. Don't lie to yourselves.

Bessiebee

No, smokers will always find money for cigarettes, hopefully they'll increase childrens allowance accordingly to minimise the net increase

Sappa

It will be great for Ryanair,everyone off to Spain or eastern Europe.
Don't smoke myself but the missis and a few of my mates have tried many times to quit and they say it is unbelievably hard as it's so addictive, I sympathise with them but I know if they increase the prices they will source it elsewhere easily and the tax take will take a huge hit.

Hardonraging

Ex smoker here, so glad i gave them up, I get to spend my money on lube and condom's now !!!

I do however know a lot of smokers who use the black market, and i suspect it will always be this way as long as the price increases ..

Piste

I think increasing it will reach a tipping point where it will drive masses to buy cigarettes on the black market, so now the exchequer wont even be able to offset all the smoking-related diseases the taxpayer has to pay for with taxes raised from the sale of cigarettes.

Hootanany

Biggins wrote: »

It seems that the cigs might just be getting even more expensive in the years to come.

From The Sunday Times (England)


Link: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1081790.ece



Non-smoker myself - so I'm neutral on the expense, won't effect me.
However will smokers be up in arms about this?

Link does not work

charlemont

Its more of the same tried tested and failed policies, A believe that increasing taxes and/or creating more laws will change peoples habits. The Tobacco smugglers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

ZeitgeistGlee

Non-smoker so it won't affect me, silly idea though really, it's an obvious attempt to gouge people for revenue which will simply lead to people getting cigarettes from alternate channels.

OakeyDokey

People will just start purchasing foreign fags.

grindle

I don't like the idea, but it is a good thing for them, if they make the switch to ecigs, or go cold turkey.

If they don't, they'll be destitute.

Micky Dolenz

It will happen.

I remember buying a 10 box of fags in 1992 for £1.25.

Too lazy to do the math.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The smuggling and illegal sale issue is the only valid viewpoint in this case. The health freaks will never stop the use and enjoyment of tobacco products.

What do you want? You're government running things or the gangsters?

Biggins

Hootanany wrote: »

Link does not work

Strange - works for me.
Others will need a subscription however to see the full article.

Part screengrab: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3536/timess.jpg

The whole article cannot be posted for legal copyright reasons.

RayM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The health freaks will never stop the use and enjoyment of tobacco products.

Do people really enjoy smoking? I don't think I've ever met anybody who smokes because they enjoy it; they smoke because they're addicted.

Rather than increasing the price, the government should make cigarettes available via prescription only. Treat smoking not like some sort of enjoyable leisure activity, but like the serious health problem it actually is.

suicide_circus

Anyone know when minister James Reilly is going to start his anti cream cake campaign? When is he gonna whack a 150% tax on pies? Obesity is a timebomb across Europe y'know!

jeepers101

RayM wrote: »

the government should make cigarettes available via prescription only.

Seriously? Thats your solution?

Sam Kade

suicide_circus wrote: »

Anyone know when minister James Reilly is going to start his anti cream cake campaign? When is he gonna whack a 150% tax on pies? Obesity is a timebomb across Europe y'know!

He seems to be fond of cream cakes himself.
http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/90249290.jpg

smellslikeshoes

The thing I don't get is why most smokers don't already just go on holiday to get cigarettes.
Even if you went to a country at the higher price side where a 20 pack costs 4 quid you would only need to pick up 2k fags to save 500 euro compared to the price here. That would pay for everything for an ok holiday.
There aren't any real limits on how many cigarettes you can bring from other EU countries. They will sometimes ask questions if you bring more than a few thousand but aslong as you don't go overboard and they are all the same brand you should be alright.

If this came to pass it would be insane to smoke without going on holiday once or twice a year :pac:

Cú Giobach

RayM wrote: »

Do people really enjoy smoking? I don't think I've ever met anybody who smokes because they enjoy it; they smoke because they're addicted.

Well meet one here. Hello, how do you do?
If you like I can introduce you quite a few others too.

Scioch

Jessie Small Varnish wrote: »

It'll only drive more smokers to black-market under-the-table dealers

Yes it will. Don't lie to yourselves.

Absolutely, it will kill off tax brought in completely and make millions for the dodgy importers. The ease with which they can be gotten everywhere for a few euro a box now should be enough to convince the government that raising the cost is counter productive at this point.

Butterface

Another person who enjoys smoking here. Nearly all of my friends now buy tobacco and roll their own because cigarettes are gone too pricey. I was offered a cigarette on a night out recently and turned it down because I prefer tobacco now. Even with the price increase in tobacco pouches, I'd say there'll be a lot more people turning to rolling their own as you can get more out of a pouch.

bfocusd

It's just going to push the black market into overload, I don't smoke, buy my mate was smoking the knock off kind, she insisted they were the same, after a few months of smoking them and more frequent pains in her chest she's switched to tobacco, amber leaf I think.

If that's happening to her after a few months im sure the a&e will have a huge influx of people with fake smokes issues when/if the price is bumped up.

What she was smoking wasn't just stuff that made it past customs after a mass purchase abroad, it was knock off cigarettes, without the regulations so I can just imagine what's in them

mikemac1

Better hire a few hundred customs officers so

lifelongnoob

Biggins wrote: »

It seems that the cigs might just be getting even more expensive in the years to come.

From The Sunday Times (England)


Link: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1081790.ece



Non-smoker myself - so I'm neutral on the expense, won't effect me.
However will smokers be up in arms about this?

more increases will do more harm than good as people will stop buying ciggies in shops (tax revenue) and buy off tobbaco smugglers instead

mikemac1

Was in Gatwick Airport a few years back just mooching around and waiting

Some of the cartons of cigarettes had a photo of a mans neck, it was just disturbing to look at, or maybe I'm just squeamish
I'm not sure how to describe it but I'd imagine many of you carton buyers have seen it

Years later I still remember it

Maybe James Reilly should look at that as a tool instead of the price

shuridunno

I gave up smoking as I refused to pay over 5 pounds at the time for them.

It's one of the hardest things to give up and I think people will always find a way to pay for them.

You can only give up if you really, really want to, then it's not too hard as your heart is in it. Of course now I'm addicted to sugar:o:D

Mind you, I would refuse to pay €5 for a bar of chocolate/sweets. Maybe they should have a sugar tax, less diabetes etc, lay off the smokers for a bit.

gaffer91

Absolute stupidity. Others have correctly (stated) smuggling will increase so I don't have to get into that.

I also oppose it from the point of view of civil liberties- I do believe tax on cigarettes should cover associated illnesses, but it already does that, so increasing it further is just unfair on smokers.

I also oppose it because it is not about protecting smokers it's just about picking an easy target and trying to squeeze every penny out of them.

The last thing that pisses me off is that every fúcking health minister thinks that by "tackling" smoking they are making some big statement of intent about public health. They are not. Smokers have been an easy target for years now and it is time they stopped being persecuted. There are other public health issues but ministers seem to concentrate the big campaigns on smoking at the expense of others.

JohnnyChimpo

Piste wrote: »

I think increasing it will reach a tipping point where it will drive masses to buy cigarettes on the black market, so now the exchequer wont even be able to offset all the smoking-related diseases the taxpayer has to pay for with taxes raised from the sale of cigarettes.

Studies have shown that the extra health costs associated with obesity and smoking-related illness are offset in the long-run by these patients not living long. Turns out, healthy people becoming old and unhealthy is the real healthcare expense. The economic argument against smokers is weak. (Note, I am neither a smoker nor a fatty, but this argument gets brought up a lot and it's hard to support)

Iwannahurl

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

Studies have shown that the extra health costs associated with obesity and smoking-related illness are offset in the long-run by these patients not living long. Turns out, healthy people becoming old and unhealthy is the real healthcare expense. The economic argument against smokers is weak. (Note, I am neither a smoker nor a fatty, but this argument gets brought up a lot and it's hard to support)

Authoritative sources please.

Here's where you can find some relevant citations, in the unlikely event that you're tempted to cite the Daily Mail or Telegraph.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I wasn't aware healthy people were ultimately a bigger healthcare expense.

Sam Kade

bfocusd wrote: »

It's just going to push the black market into overload, I don't smoke, buy my mate was smoking the knock off kind, she insisted they were the same, after a few months of smoking them and more frequent pains in her chest she's switched to tobacco, amber leaf I think.

If that's happening to her after a few months im sure the a&e will have a huge influx of people with fake smokes issues when/if the price is bumped up.

What she was smoking wasn't just stuff that made it past customs after a mass purchase abroad, it was knock off cigarettes, without the regulations so I can just imagine what's in them

That's a myth that's going around the black cigarettes are bad for your health so you should stick to the high tax ones they won't affect your health:rolleyes: I wonder who started that myth

Splendour

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What do you want? You're government running things or the gangsters?

And the difference is..?

It's an awful pity Minister Reilly wouldn't think of doing something about the alcohol problem in this country instead. Obviously smoking can cause sickness and can kill people but surely that is their own choice? (The cost of treatment for these folk is another argument). Drink on the other hand causes far more social and domestic dysfunction than any other drug.

c_man

RayM wrote: »

Do people really enjoy smoking?

Yes they do! When I was a smoker (for five years) I can tell you that I bloody enjoyed the vast majority of them. Even now I can still remember the feeling of having a smoke with a coffee,outside on a nice morning.

Putting up the price is retarded for so many reasons, it's high enough as is.

Cee-Jay-Cee

What makes fatboy Reilly think he'll still be health minister in 5 years time. In fact what makes him think he'll even be in government?

Iwannahurl

gaffer91 wrote: »

I also oppose it from the point of view of civil liberties- I do believe tax on cigarettes should cover associated illnesses, but it already does that, so increasing it further is just unfair on smokers.

I personally don't restrict smokers' civil liberties, but smokers and their inevitable emissions frequently interfere with mine.

The economics argument is the big one, and I imagine there will be intense debate in the, er, smoke-filled rooms of Government offices in the coming years, if this proposal is pursued.

There has always been an awkward dance going on between the Health Promoters and the Tax Gatherers in the public policy arena.

Depending on how you do the accounting, smokers may or may not be paying their way.

The Revenue Commissioners published an interesting report last year:

Higher prices (taxes) will contribute to lower smoking rates but, given current levels of taxation, they will also contribute towards more untaxed consumption. Further analysis suggests that Ireland has moved beyond the optimum point regarding the effectiveness of taxation to reduce cigarette consumption. This implies that further increases in taxes may not lead to further increases in tax revenue.

This research suggests that higher cigarette taxes in Ireland will no longer produce a win-win situation of public health benefits (lower rates of smoking) and benefits to the public finances (higher levels of tax revenue). More likely, it appears that in the Irish market for cigarettes as it current stands, a tax increase will reduce revenue but only have a lesser impact on tobacco consumption by encouraging further substitution away from taxed cigarettes.

Given the importance of the public health benefits, it is only right that policy-makers should aim to reduce smoking and tobacco taxation has been a key tool in addressing this objective. However, policy-makers should be cognisant of the full impacts of higher tobacco taxes and consider the costs of as well as the benefits of higher taxation.

Revenue Commissioners (2011) Economics of Tobacco: Modelling the Market for Cigarettes in Ireland

Let the games begin.

lifelongnoob

putting up prices not only encourages smuggling but also damages tourism.... alot of foreigners smoke... increasing the cost of ciggies even more will put off alot of these tourists.

PhlegmyMoses

Either James Reilly currently smokes or he used to smoke. At least he has the money to pay any increases.

Dyr

So Minister Fintan Stack is price gouging drug addicts? It's not really a headline is it, after it's just standard fine gael scumbaggery

How come we don't see tobacco rehab clinics being paid for by the gubberment? because dealers don't help their customers get clean is why

suicide_circus

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Authoritative sources please.

Here's where you can find some relevant citations, in the unlikely event that you're tempted to cite the Daily Mail or Telegraph.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I wasn't aware healthy people were ultimately a bigger healthcare expense.

Well the longer people live the more they will cost, not just in healthcare but also state service, pensions and old age care. Modern medicine is keeping people alive who nature would have killed off long before and this all cost money.Smokers die younger , i don't have any stats or sources but it would seem ti be logical that this means they will cost less in the long run.

up for anything

Bambi wrote: »

So Minister Fintan Stack is price gouging drug addicts? It's not really a headline is it, after it's just standard fine gael scumbaggery

How come we don't see tobacco rehab clinics being paid for by the gubberment? because dealers don't help their customers get clean is why

Not quite true. The government do provide smoking cessation counsellors.

HSE quitting smoking services

ETA: Free service.

Yitzhak Rabin

Increasing the price of cigarettes is the most effective way of reducing consumption.

Graph 1


Graph 2

biko

Discussion on possible future costs of smoking.
AH->Smoking forum

Krieg

I haven't bought a pack of Irish cigarettes in 2 years. Wont affect me, nor will any increase in customs activity since the cigarettes I buy are are bought within the EU and duty paid. The only loser is the Irish government.

RustyNut

suicide_circus wrote: »

Well the longer people live the more tax they contribute

FYP

BeerNut

Now we're on the Smoking forum, please abide by the Smoking forum charter, in particular

3. Not everyone enjoys smoking, and some people think that its disgusting filthy habit these people are not welcomed here. Those with an anti-smoking axe to grind or simply looking for support while you stop smoking please post in the Giving Up Smoking forum, not here. This forum is to discuss the positives of our habit. While we don’t encourage people to start smoking we will discuss the positives of smoking.

Thanks!

biko

Right now I'd say I'll quit if it gets too expensive but just like a frog in a hot pot I'll probably hang on, particularly when drinking.
Maybe switch to rollies.

RayM

jeepers101 wrote: »

Seriously? Thats your solution?

Yes. If the government was serious about getting people to stop smoking, I think making cigarettes available via prescription only would be a better solution than merely using their addiction as a handy revenue generator.

I don't think I can really expand on that, as the thread has been inexplicably moved to a forum where only one side of the discussion is permitted.

Iwannahurl

biko wrote: »

Discussion on possible future costs of smoking.
AH->Smoking forum

Why?

charlemont

HardLuckWoman wrote: »

Good. Increase the price to €20 instead. Sick of walking down the street with people smoking and the wind blowing the smoke in my face. Why cant they breathe in fresh clean air instead of dirty rotten smoke. And letting others breathe in their dirty rotten smoke. Just because we're outside, it doesn't make it ok for people to pull out a fag and smoke it. Like standing in a bus queue. Ban smoking altogether.

I'v often said it but the best solution is to blow the whole planet up, That way nobody can do anything the Holy Joe's get offended about.

68Murph68

Someone else mentioned it but I think the key thing with this its that it would seriously cut down on youngsters taking up smoking, as they are hardly like to go looking for black-market cigarettesor smoking rollies initially.

Long-term this would have serious benefits in terms of public health. Also as it would mean that in the long-term as the older generations of smokers die out the revenue from tax on smoking would disappear.

rubadubduba

i can hear the sound of forthy foot container doors shuting all over europe at the moment.