Is it time to go back to Fianna Fáil?

Canvasser

After the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the global downturn it was inevitable there would be a recession in Ireland. At the last election the people took their anger out on Fianna Fáil and turned towards Fine Gael/Labour. This is understandable but ignores the fact that that when in opposition Fine Gael and Labour were actually calling for lower taxes and higher spending. The crisis would be even worse today had the Fine Gael manifesto from 2007 been implemented.

Fine Gael in particular have been very arrogant in government. Hogan and Reilly are just gombeen men in politics for personal gain. The 5 point plan was an absolute joke and none of it has been implemented. Where are the 100,000 new jobs that were promised? Where is the free GP care they promised? What about burning the bondholders? Labour are also implementing none of their centre left policies and are trying to use gay marriage to distract from their failures.

Fianna Fáil were at least honest in 2011 and outlined what needed to be done. Fine Gael/Labour are essentially just implementing FF policies while pretending to be new and different.

RichardAnd

I knew this would happen eventually . . .


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76145263&postcount=8

mikemac1

No harm OP, if you didn't start this thread then someone else would have

shofukan

Canvasser wrote: »

gombeen men in politics for personal gain

Pot. Kettle. Black.

gaffer91

OP give up on this nonsense about Lehman Brothers and the global recession. The current deficit is a direct result of disastrous FF/PD spending binges and erosion of the tax base. The global recession has nothing to do with it. I do agree that FG and Labour would have been no better but that it is not the issue. FF were the ones in control of the levers of power and they were the ones who led Ireland into its current predicament.

Having said that, I don't think FG and Labour are any great shakes, and I absolutely detest SF and the ULA types. If FF somehow started espousing full social liberalism, i.e support for gay marriage and adoption, drug liberalisation, support for abortion rights and so on, combined with a pragmatic form of centrist economic policies, I probably would vote for them. This is extremely unlikely to happen however so I really haven't a clue who to support at present.

LoYL

You have to wait until the mess they created is sorted out. Then you can go back and add to the usual pattern: Dev/FF make a disaster, someone sorts it out, FF back in...and so on. This time people might have seen through them. Incompetence and corruption is their legacy. Never forget their posturing self serving bombastic arrogance.

ArmaniJeanss

I see you are a member of FF from your previous posts OP.

I think the party is utterly and completely tainted for another 10 years.
Also as long as you continue to put forward the theory that 'Lehmann Brothers collapse was responsible' and refuse to see that FF must shoulder the bulk of the blame then I'm afraid you'll struggle to get the middle class PAYE vote back.

Also a move to a social liberal position would help as there is a gap there, but judging by some of your other posts "Crowe is absolutely right not to pander to the gay lobby. Gays are trying to intimidate politicians into letting them do whatever they want. They are as bad as the IRA" I suspect its not a move you yourself would be comfortable with.

christmas2012

no

gaffer91

LoYL wrote: »

You have to wait until the mess they created is sorted out. Then you can go back and add to the usual pattern: Dev/FF make a disaster, someone sorts it out, FF back in...and so on. This time people might have seen through them. Incompetence and corruption is their legacy. Never forget their posturing self serving bombastic arrogance.

Historically this is not true at all, I don't see why people on boards repeat it so often?

A more accurate representation would be: FF create a mess, FG/ Labour come in and fail to sort it out, and then FF come back in and finally sort the mess they created, only years later.

Markcheese

Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice shame on me .... Fool me...how many times have we done this now... As Bertie said, who'd have thought running a country could be so complicated ....

Hootanany

NO

368100

No no no no....FG no use either....the country is waiting for an alternative to the usual types that occupy office

WealthyB

Never. However it's a testament to the idiocy of Irish voters that FF are even still a functioning party; they know all they need to do is hide in the long grass and the electorate will be fooled once again into voting them back in once FG/LAB inevitably alienate the public.

Then again FG/FF are simply cheeks of the same arse in my opinion.

murraykil

Sinn Féin are likely to make the biggest gains in the next election if things continue as they are now. Gerry Adams is very vocal in his criticisms of the Government and gets frequent media coverage. Labour could lose a lot of support, Fine Gael some; that coupled with large Sinn Féin gains and some Fianna Fáil could lead to some interesting coalition possibilities!

WealthyB

murraykil wrote: »

Sinn Féin are likely to make the biggest gains in the next election if things continue as they are now. Gerry Adams is very vocal in his criticisms of the Government and gets frequent media coverage. Labour could lose a lot of support, Fine Gael some; that coupled with large Sinn Féin gains and some Fianna Fáil could lead to some interesting coalition possibilities!

There's a large section of the electorate that will never vote SF for a multitude of reasons. Labour will be decimated akin to post-1992 when they jumped into bed with FF. FF of course know all this and will be waiting in the wings to make inevitable gains. Again, all a testament to the idiocy and goldfish mentality of the Irish electorate. FF as a party should no longer exist having bankrupted this country.

johnnyskeleton

What, I wonder, does the OP think FF stand for other than not being FG/Lab?

Personally, the main reason I want to see FF utterly destroyed is not because they are any worse than other parties, but they are like a poison and so long as they are around it will always be this unthinking politics of "vote for us, not the other guy".

If FF are gone we might start to see FG and Labour developing actual centre right / centre left policies.

cristoir

Simply saying "Fine Gael/Labour would have done the same" isn't good enough. We have no way of knowing what they would have done. However we do know what Fianna Fáil did.

Slashed tax's and increased spending and then praying that the stamp duty would keep the deficit down forever. Leaving the banking sector so unregulated that our banks could not handle the crash. Social partnership which drove up inflation and the cost of living. A housing bubble that lead to a spectacular crash. A mismanagement of public finances so severe that we had to be aided by an organisation that traditionally gives support to failed states and crashed out economies.

I'd rather keep the current government thank you very much.

Hootanany

WealthyB wrote: »

There's a large section of the electorate that will never vote SF for a multitude of reasons. Labour will be decimated akin to post-1992 when they jumped into bed with FF. FF of course know all this and will be waiting in the wings to make inevitable gains. Again, all a testament to the idiocy and goldfish mentality of the Irish electorate. FF as a party should no longer exist having bankrupted this country.

SS fought for this countrys freedom why do you diss them.
and by the way I was born in UK so do not have any links with them or any other party.

Canvasser

This is the FG manifesto from 2007. It called for big increases in spending and lower taxes

http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/fine-gael-manifesto/

ZeitgeistGlee

Hootanany wrote: »

SS fought for this countrys freedom why do you diss them.
and by the way I was born in UK so do not have any links with them or any other party.

Because what was done 90 years ago has no bearing on their modern electoral standing?

Donnaghm

OP misses the point. This country will never go back to voting on mass for pragmatic parties with no particular set of beliefs. Tribal loyalties are a thing of the past. What exactly is FF for is what you should be asking yourself. Forget about Dev, the treaty and whatever historical, now irrelevant achievements you associate with the party brand. A political party is not a football team. You should vote for a party based on a dispassionate assessment of their policies. Leave emotion or an ingrained, hereditary hatred of Fine Gael out of the equation and maybe the country will be better off as a result. K.

charlemont

It would be scary to see Micheál Martin and Michael McGrath running the country, It would obviously be beneficial to Cork (in the best of parish pump traditions) But not to the whole country, Personally I don't know who I'll vote for in the next election but I know it won't be FF anyway.

Hootanany

Donnaghm wrote: »

OP misses the point. This country will never go back to voting on mass for pragmatic parties with no particular set of beliefs. Tribal loyalties are a thing of the past. What exactly is FF for is what you should be asking yourself. Forget about Dev, the treaty and whatever historical, now irrelevant achievements you associate with the party brand. A political party is not a football team. You should vote for a party based on a dispassionate assessment of their policies. Leave emotion or an ingrained, hereditary hatred of Fine Gael out of the equation and maybe the country will be better off as a result. K.

You happy with this corrupt shower then.

ZeitgeistGlee

Hootanany wrote: »

You happy with this corrupt shower then.

"This corrupt shower" didn't bankrupt the country, and they're not currently led by someone who was in the inner circle for years and did nothing.

raymon

Let's see , go back to the party that bankrupted the country? The worst attack on the state since we gained independence.

The party whose leader took money from a developer and placed it in his wifes bank account.

The party whose front bench includes a trained solicitor who lied under oath.

Etc., etc., etc.,

No thanks

SocSocPol

Never going to happen, FF are finished, they will never again hold sway in this country thank God.
This is a party built on corruption, dishonesty, lies, cronyism, and the lowest form of parish pump politics.
The Party who gave Ireland Haughey, Aherne, Rambo Burke, The Flynns.
The Party who lined their own nests while systematically bankrupting the country and plundering our childrens and grandchildrens future.
Go back to that? I would sooner hand the country back to the Brits first.:mad:

SocSocPol

Canvasser wrote: »

This is the FG manifesto from 2007. It called for big increases in spending and lower taxes

http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/fine-gael-manifesto/

Did it call for "dig outs" for its leader?
Did it call for bankrupting the country with an inept bank guarentee devised by undoubtidly the worst Taoiseach and dimmest Minister for Finance the state has ever had?

johngalway

No.

Hell fcking no.

bmaxi

I've often said it before, FF is only a name. You could get the same collection of crooked corrupt people in any party. The problem has with FF has always been the almost fanatical loyalty to party, this allowed the likes of Haughey to rise to power backed by a few hard men. When they got power they surrounded themselves with more of the same and so it went on, almost mirroring the rise of Hitler and Stalin. Once you get people like this at the helm, ethics and principles take a back seat.
There have been good and honourable men in FF, Sean Lemass being the most outstanding IMO but it would be hard for FF to gain credibility again with the likes of Martin and O'Dea pulling the strings, they need a root and branch clear out.

ANXIOUS

cristoir wrote: »

Simply saying "Fine Gael/Labour would have done the same" isn't good enough. We have no way of knowing what they would have done. However we do know what Fianna Fáil

I don't buy your argument for a second, go back to the transcripts on budget day. How many times did the opposition say that the policies FF implemented didn't go far enough. Every December they said they would have built more roads hired more gardai and teachers. Or do you buy into the arguement that opposition can say whatever they want because they don't have to follow through with it?

goat2

it will be hard to forget what happened, remembering our children having to take the boat, we ourselves losing our jobs, and having our wages slashed to pieces, charges that never existed being brought on us, having to think twice before we go to a doctor, as we are havigh to toss up between going to doctor and paying leccy bill,
i dont think ff will be getting many votes in the upconing election when it come round,
too many people effected,
people losing their homes due to loss of jobs,
we can never forget this

Sunnyisland

I wouldn't be surprised if FF formed the next government with a SF government partner,

Personally I am bit disillusioned with all of the Major political parties in this country and I would hate to see FF get back into power in any form, But eaten bread is soon forgotten,Do we learn nothing from our history ?

ZeitgeistGlee

realies wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if FF formed the next government with a SF government partner

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if FF cozied up to SF if it represented their best chance of getting into power, especially seeing as they said they'd never do so for years.

thebman

Short answer no, long answer, it isn't time to return FG/Labour either as they have been fairly unimpressive in power.

That leaves the bottom of the barrel parties.

Irish political landscape is looking pretty pathetic at the moment and is ripe for innovation and new thinking. That all the parties have failed to catch the imagination of the electorate is very revealing about the quality of people in our political parties.

I don't think FF have undergone much reform myself. Certainly isn't visible on the outside.

The Waltzing Consumer

No :mad:

guitarzero

We'll have to wait on FG/Labour to pull off something as cataclysmic as FF until FF are reconsidered. That could be any day now...

Ddad

Not a hope, never have, never will.

They have always reeked of cronyism and gombeen localised politics. The only thing Fianna fail were interested in in the last twenty years was their continuation in power. During the boom they didn't build enough schools, invested poorly in health and the public service and wasted money by the truck load. Not only are they fiscally inept from an administrative and management perspective they are appaling.

Now, the gene pool within the party is reduced and lets face it if you stuck with them you've probably got the deductive abilities of an egg. So the next time they assume power ( and God help us all I think that's inevitable) we'll have a shower of "I was always loyal to the party" heads getting positions in power. You thought they were bad the last time; wait........

BTW I think FG are only marginally better; marginally.

plasmaguy

Not in my lifetime.

rubadubduba

some people seem to forget about the hole this country is in and what some bad apples have done to it, bad dose'nt bring good only good brings good so i would say no to ff.
just a question, did the public ever get what the public wants i would say no.
people have to think seriously who they reaily want to lead this country.

K.Flyer

Fianna FAILed!!
They totally screwed us up and looked for anything or anyone to blame except themselves. I know hardened dye in the wool FF supporters who have turned their back on the FF party never to return because they feel what FF did was unforgiveable.
FF will be on the sidelines for quite a while yet.

gavmcg92

Canvasser wrote: »

blah blah blah

Just gotta say I'm a huge fan of some of your previous posts :rolleyes::p:pac:

SeanW

I see Bertie Ahern has got himself a boards profile!! :P

The OPs assertion that it was Lehman Brothers that brought down the Irish economy is totally false; LB was at best the catalyst that exacerbated the clear flaws that were already there in Ireland's economy.

Fianna Fail presided over a large property bubble that was entirely internal: all their developer friends made billions (now squirreled away offshore and in the names of their wives etc) selling garbage-grade shoebox apartments little better than Priory Hall, and housing estates on floodplains. Without that, there would never have been a boom and bust, there would never have been the giveaways in public finances and we would have had to have developed some real industries to provide stable employment for our people, many years ago.

Labour are a left wing party and since left wing = irresponsible in my view, I would pay little heed to their 2007 manifesto. As for Fine Gael, they were trying to get elected ...
I'll concede that it is possible FG might have given the crazy bank guarantee like Brian Lenihan did, but we will never know now.

christmas2012

Why would anybody even question it is time to go back to fianna fail after all the fraud and debt they had us face due to their brown enveloping shennanigans and barefaced outright lies from bertie on the state of the economy and to keep buying property?
Never go back to those who did you wrong.

michael999999

Dont forget fianna fails motto, paycheques before principles!

They are the most corrupt institution in the western world, a party full of liars and fraudsters.

murphaph

Canvasser wrote: »

Fianna Fáil were at least honest in 2011

First time for everything I suppose.

The difference between FG/Labour and FF during the crash was that FF were in government but didn't govern. Enough reason never to vote for them again right there.

If FG/Labour aren't up to it, we should look to others who are, not back to FF in a pathetic game of civil war ping pong politics.

gavmcg92

They lied to us right up that the IMF was knocking at the door.

By all means forgive them if you wish... but I won't!

Sierra Oscar

thebman wrote: »

I don't think FF have undergone much reform myself. Certainly isn't visible on the outside.

The party does seem to have underwent quite significant reform internally since the 2011 General Election - and that is likely to be an ongoing process for some time yet. The operation of the party is changing rapidly with the continued implementation of 'One Member One Vote' which will in itself aid the party in its renewal. The recent Ard Fheis saw a clearing out of the old guard at Ard Chomhairle level, which is the highest executive of the party, and saw many young and energetic people who have quite progressive ideals being elected for the first time ever. In fact if FF was not defeated so heavily during GE11 then it is likely that many of these people would have been waiting a very long time before being able to hold such prominent positions within the party. You are already seeing a number of new candidates also being appointed Local Area Representatives within their local areas, which indicates that the party will be looking to field candidates who are not tarnished by the actions of a minority in the past. The back-end staff has also by and large seen quite an overhaul.

So there are quite significant changes occurring within the party, and these changes will undoubtedly be mirrored to those "on the outside" as a new generation work to bring about new policies and a fresh face for the party. It is undoubtedly the case that a section of the electorate will remain pessimistic towards FF so long as what they see as being the faces of the past remain associated with the party, but the vast majority of FF members recognise that the renewal of the party is a long term strategy rather than a short term one. They know that it could be ten years before the party is ready to be in a position to enter government, yet they remain up to the challenge.

Sponge Bob

Fine Gael will get a massive bounce back in the polls when they eventually replace Phil with a talented communicator and politician such as Fidelma Healy Eames or Paschal O Donoghue.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The party does seem to have underwent quite significant reform internally since the 2011 General Election - and that is likely to be an ongoing process for some time yet. The operation of the party is changing rapidly with the continued implementation of 'One Member One Vote' which will in itself aid the party in its renewal. The recent Ard Fheis saw a clearing out of the old guard at Ard Chomhairle level, which is the highest executive of the party, and saw many young and energetic people who have quite progressive ideals being elected for the first time ever. In fact if FF was not defeated so heavily during GE11 then it is likely that many of these people would have been waiting a very long time before being able to hold such prominent positions within the party. You are already seeing a number of new candidates also being appointed Local Area Representatives within their local areas, which indicates that the party will be looking to field candidates who are not tarnished by the actions of a minority in the past. The back-end staff has also by and large seen quite an overhaul.

So there are quite significant changes occurring within the party, and these changes will undoubtedly be mirrored to those "on the outside" as a new generation work to bring about new policies and a fresh face for the party. It is undoubtedly the case that a section of the electorate will remain pessimistic towards FF so long as what they see as being the faces of the past remain associated with the party, but the vast majority of FF members recognise that the renewal of the party is a long term strategy rather than a short term one. They know that it could be ten years before the party is ready to be
in a position to enter government, yet they remain up to the challenge.

Ok , apart from gaining power , what do FF stand for ???.( please don't refer me to a list on the website)

Renewal , new faces, significant changes, reform , random other cliches and buzzwords etc etc is really meaningless.

COYW

I have never voted for a FF candidate to date, as I have never agreed with their policies but if they altered their thinking, in line with mine, I would do so without doubt. I would vote for any party or independent with beliefs similar to mine, with the exception of SF. The old school were bad but I am not silly enough to believe that FG, Labour etc would not have been as reckless in power. Their manifestos declared a desire to spend more than FF did.

I think FG will get back in next time, just but I expect to see a rise in votes/seats for FF. Labour will get a pounding and people will resort back to FF. In all honesty, there is no serious alternatively to FF/FG or Labour. The hard left (incl. SF) cannot come up with a realistic alternatively. They will gain some protest votes from the Labour cache but FG would never go into government with the likes of SF and Joe Higgins & Co. wouldn't enter into such a coalition on principal.