Ireland can't afford to be members of CERN?

eblistic

Would have thought we can't afford not to be.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0712/esof2012.html

Basically, the rest of Europe are funding this organisation and so their citizens can apply for positions there. Not us.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0714/1224320063643.html

smcgiff

Especially at 1m for associate membership.

mike65

Pathetic not to be part of it, this county talks about the importance of the knowledge economy and then passes for the sake of a few million.

My name is URL

So regardless of the quality of scientist that a country produces, they cannot be employed by CERN unless the country as a whole formally become members? That doesn't sound very progressive really.

Bits_n_Bobs

Science Foundation Ireland has a circa 160m budget - all of which is aimed at biotech, itc and sustainable energy i.e. "science" politicians enjoy waffling about as its media friendly and trendy.

bleg

Should have signed up to it originally. Knowledge economy my arse. Successive governments going back to the formation of CERN have shirked responsibility.

However last night's focus on it by RTE on 6.1, 9 o clock and on Radio 1's drive time and hourly news updates leads me to believe that such an announcement is imminent and that RTE were asked to run this story. Sean Sherlock can now swoop in and get some positive press after alienating the scientific community with his SOPA-esque law last year. FG/Lab can portray themselves as the saviours of the knowledge economy etc...

I reckon it's all very choreographed anyway.

My name is URL

Yeah, well.. I'm gonna go build my own particle accelerator, with blackjack and hookers. Actually, forget the particle accelerator... and the blackjack.

woof im a dog

for the sake of a million euro maybe we should but as far as i know theres not a huge amount of research in particle physics going on in ireland atm

Fupping Grasshole

We'll be members soon I imagine. It's not that we can't afford it, it's more like this was the first time our dim witted politicians heard of such a thing.

"Derp, government policy, no money, derp committee to review the situation derp"

Government guy repeating words of government adviser guy
source: me hole

Pushtrak

Anyone who doesn't see a need for Ireland to become members of CERN, go here.

Edit: From there...

Irish Research
Theoretical research groups in high-energy particle physics have a strong base throughout
Ireland. Institutes carrying out such research include DIAS, NUI Galway, NUI Maynooth, TCD
and UCD with around 25 academic staff working specifically in this area. Their work
complements the experimental work at CERN and isa particular growth area in Irish physics.
For example, Trinity has recruited 7 permanent faculty since 2002 and will recruit a further 4 this
year in addition to 10 post-doctoral positions and11 graduate students. There are also a small
number of experimentalists in Ireland already using CERN through ad hocarrangements
including staff at DCU, NUI Maynooth, UCD and TCD. In the past five years Irish institutions
have produced over 600 publications in the field of high-energy physics, many with a high
citation index. See Appendix II.

There is, however, clearly a chicken and egg situation in that without CERN membership it is
impossible to fully develop an experimental particle physics programme in Ireland. However,
even with this unfavourable environment, UCD recruited two academics in 2003 who in the last
four years, starting from zero have attracted €1.5 million in funding, 5 post-doctoral positions
and 8 students. CERN membership is essential for these research groups to realise their full
potential and remove the significant disadvantage in relation to other European groups.
There are also many Irish researchers now working outside Ireland in this field. This is probably
because of the lack of support for this area in Ireland. Indeed a number hold senior positions at
CERN, including the head of the accelerator and beams division, Steve Myers and the technical
co-ordinator of the ATHENA experiment, Paul Bowe.

(As seen at the link, this was from 2008.)

CreepingDeath

Yep, we need anti-higgs boson death ray guns for everyone !

force eleven

More important things to be spending money on. Theoretical science,however interesting it may be, can take a ticket and get in line.

Lets get the troika lot paid off first.:rolleyes:

Jimoslimos

Particularly dismal for a country that gave the world the first man to split the atom, Ernest Walton.

Rasheed

Jesus, it says alot that Romania, Serbia and Isreal are applying but we are not.

Pushtrak

force eleven wrote: »

More important things to be spending money on. Theoretical science,however interesting it may be, can take a ticket and get in line.

Lets get the troika lot paid off first.:rolleyes:

What would you rather see get the money?

http://www.iopireland.org/policy/submissions/file_48918.pdf

Summary
Ireland aims for international excellence in research in order to bring about a transformation in
the Irish economy. Physics is a key science which underpins developments in areas as diverse
as medical technology, communications and energy production. Indeed physics based industry
employs over 85,000 and has a value to the Irish economy of - €15 billion annually.

jumpguy

The government are doing a lot of investing in research they think will offer a medium-term economic return of some sort. For example, if Ireland discovers a new pharmaceutical then we'll get a massive return, etc. The only problem with that is that it's completely against any good scientific ethos of exploration and discovery. While we've come leaps and bounds in scientific investment in the last 10 years, politicians still can't quite fully shake off that good aule money-pinching, ignorant attitude to scientific research.

Hammer Archer

Looking at some of the comments to that article is genuinely depressing:

we should get our country back on the straight and narrow before we start spending millions of euro on silly little scientific experiments.

Waste of time.....money spent by people "creating" particles in their toys ...a lot of these so called scientists are mere quacks..the VIRTUAL particles created do not appear naturally as nowhere in the Cosmos does matter collide with matter at the speed of light...these are the same quacks that tell you in future " We will fly among the stars" ...erm NO you wont.. CERN will be of no benefit to us nor will it be.....All Governments should cease funding most of them are being hoodwinked by the Theoretical cuckoo clan.......

Meanwhile, there's no problem in spending tens of thousands on fcuking ties for the EU presidency that no one gives a sh!t about.

suicide_circus

****ing sh¡tkickers in the dail.

mconigol

My name is URL wrote: »

Yeah, well.. I'm gonna go build my own particle accelerator, with blackjack and hookers. Actually, forget the particle accelerator... and the blackjack.

"I'm gonna go build my own hookers"?
Impressive!

force eleven wrote: »

More important things to be spending money on. Theoretical science,however interesting it may be, can take a ticket and get in line.

Lets get the troika lot paid off first.:rolleyes:

Yeah this is practical experimental physics. Theory would be if they hypothesised building a massive particle accelerator in central Europe rather than actually doing it.

brimal

Rasheed wrote: »

Jesus, it says alot that Romania, Serbia and Isreal are applying but we are not.

Seeing as Israel are one of the top countries in the world for scientific activity & output, them joining would be a no-brainer.

CERN is already full of Israeli scientists as it is.

brimal

My name is URL wrote: »

Yeah, well.. I'm gonna go build my own particle accelerator, with blackjack and hookers. Actually, forget the particle accelerator... and the blackjack.

It's not as difficult as you might think - Michio Kaku built one in his garage when he was a teenager!

minidazzler

Rasheed wrote: »

Jesus, it says alot that Romania, Serbia and Isreal are applying but we are not.

Romania and Serbia maybe, but Israel is a very wealthy country with a true knowledge economy and they tend to back it up with products.

hmmm

It fits the Oirish mentality of "sure what's in it for us"? Pure science often has spinoff benefits, but above all else it is about improving our understanding of life, the universe and everything else. It takes a certain level of maturity as a nation to appreciate the latter, rather than saying "it won't put diesel in the tractor".

steddyeddy

My name is URL wrote: »

So regardless of the quality of scientist that a country produces, they cannot be employed by CERN unless the country as a whole formally become members? That doesn't sound very progressive really.

Irish people can and are employed at cern.

Jimoslimos

hmmm wrote: »

It fits the Oirish mentality of "sure what's in it for us"? Pure science often has spinoff benefits, but above all else it is about improving our understanding of life, the universe and everything else. It takes a certain level of maturity as a nation to appreciate the latter, rather than saying "it won't put diesel in the tractor".

Yeah unfortunately that is the attitude when it comes to R&D funding. Not interested in anything other than short/medium term projects with 'guaranteed' returns.

That shouldn't be the criteria for funding the sciences (or indeed the arts).

steddyeddy

The irish government are wasting well over a million in the public sector (Im not talking about pay). There is clearly a lot that can be done to free up money but neither of the two parties have any balls to make the cuts were needed (not talking about cutting that will affect the poor either). We need to be part of cern or we lose out bigtme. Irish science funding mainly is in the applied sciences at the moment (engineering and not pure research. Below is a letter from a UCD genetics lecturer and a Trinty Physics lecturer that explains it well.

Sir, – Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation Richard Bruton’s announcement of Science Foundation Ireland’s €39 million investment is welcome (Business Today, June 30th), but this new narrow focus on applied science is a serious threat to Ireland’s emerging reputation for world-class basic research.

The scientific discoveries that produce novel technologies come from funding creative scientists to conduct world-class fundamental research. This is how the great universities of the world, such as Stanford, MIT and Cambridge, have produced countless successful commercial spin-outs, not to mention Nobel prizes. Indeed, lasers, antibiotics, wireless networks, and even the internet, all emerged from laboratories focused on basic research.
The Government’s implementation of the recommendations of the Research Prioritisation Exercise, which was steered predominantly by industrialists and not by leading international scientists, will decimate many Irish research groups. This policy is already driving our best young scientists and their professors to seek opportunities abroad.
For Ireland to lead in science and capitalise on the resulting technologies, we need to keep our best scientists in Ireland.
As with any investment strategy, a diverse portfolio of investments, ranging from fundamental basic research to industrially focused applied projects, has a significantly better potential to produce new Irish scientific discoveries for innovation.
Fundamental research can make world-changing scientific discoveries, lead to innovation, produce much-needed science graduates for industry, and play an important role in supporting Ireland’s economic recovery. Fundamental research is not a luxury item that should only be funded during good times, but forms the very basis for applied science and innovation, without which our smart economy will flounder. – Yours, etc,
Dr PETER GALLAGHER,
School of Physics,
Trinity College Dublin;
Dr EMMA TEELING,
School of Biology and Environmental Science,
University College Dublin.

She is right. I would be a biochemistry grad who specialises in research. I cannot possibly get a research job here with the state of the funding at the moment. I will have to work in America (which I dont mind) but Ireland is losing out on valuble medical research as a result of their choice of funding. This needs to change.

PS: By the way Dr. Telling is researching the reason why bats live 8 times longer than they should for their size. The results could teach us a lot about cancer and metoblisim and possibly enable us to prolong our lifespan considerebly (long way off).

My name is URL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Irish people can and are employed at cern.

Really, because it's stated as otherwise in the article.

As Ireland has not joined CERN to date, Irish scientists and students cannot be employed there.

brimal

Coincidentally, CERN Director General Rolf-Dieter Heuer is in Dublin giving a keynote speech today for the ESOF2012.

Starts in 5 mins, can be watched live here

steddyeddy

My name is URL wrote: »

Really, because it's stated as otherwise in the article.

Trying to dig out the link Im nearly sure Irish scientists have worked at cern (ucd grads).

Lapin

Didn't CERN find the little particle thingy they were looking for last week ?

Whats the point in Ireland joining now?

It would be like turning up at a party when all the booze is gone and pretenting you had a great time.

Pushtrak

My name is URL wrote: »

Really, because it's stated as otherwise in the article.

See my earlier post...

Irish Research
Theoretical research groups in high-energy particle physics have a strong base throughout
Ireland. Institutes carrying out such research include DIAS, NUI Galway, NUI Maynooth, TCD
and UCD with around 25 academic staff working specifically in this area. Their work
complements the experimental work at CERN and isa particular growth area in Irish physics.
For example, Trinity has recruited 7 permanent faculty since 2002 and will recruit a further 4 this
year in addition to 10 post-doctoral positions and11 graduate students. There are also a small
number of experimentalists in Ireland already using CERN through ad hocarrangements
including staff at DCU, NUI Maynooth, UCD and TCD. In the past five years Irish institutions
have produced over 600 publications in the field of high-energy physics, many with a high
citation index. See Appendix II.

There is, however, clearly a chicken and egg situation in that without CERN membership it is
impossible to fully develop an experimental particle physics programme in Ireland. However,
even with this unfavourable environment, UCD recruited two academics in 2003 who in the last
four years, starting from zero have attracted €1.5 million in funding, 5 post-doctoral positions
and 8 students. CERN membership is essential for these research groups to realise their full
potential and remove the significant disadvantage in relation to other European groups.
There are also many Irish researchers now working outside Ireland in this field. This is probably
because of the lack of support for this area in Ireland. Indeed a number hold senior positions at
CERN, including the head of the accelerator and beams division, Steve Myers and the technical
co-ordinator of the ATHENA experiment, Paul Bowe.

Edit: And that's from '08. If there are more since, I don't know.

My name is URL

Fair enough. I'm not sure why the media are spinning it as if Ireland are being left out in the cold in that case

Why not invest in the new accelerator in Darmstadt instead. Bit late to be arriving at the CERN party now. Surely it'd be better to get in to a project which is still in the early stages.

steddyeddy

Lapin wrote: »

Didn't CERN find the little particle thingy they were looking for last week ?

Whats the point in Ireland joining now?

It would be like turning up at a party when all the booze is gone and pretenting you had a great time.

Well Earnest watson was an Irish scientist who was the first to creat a particle accelerator. Without him this wouldnt have been possible.

Lapin

Lapin wrote: »

Didn't CERN find the little particle thingy they were looking for last week ?

Whats the point in Ireland joining now?

It would be like turning up at a party when all the booze is gone and pretenting you had a great time.

There's a tonne of other stuff going on in CERN and there has been for decades. Much like the International Space Station there's a huge amount of research going on that gets little coverage.

steddyeddy

My name is URL wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not sure why the media are spinning it as if Ireland are being left out in the cold in that case

Why not invest in the new accelerator in Darmstadt instead. Bit late to be arriving at the CERN party now. Surely it'd be better to get in to a project which is still in the early stages.

Well I think the bigger point is the lack of funding devoted to pure science in general eg chemistry, biological or physics research.

brimal

It's not late at all.

The LHC is going to be closed down next year for a few years for upgrades. Then it will be more powerful, able to smash even heavier particles together and possibly making new discoveries.

Not to mention all the other more interesting experiments going on in CERN using the LHC - dark matter, dark energy, antimatter, branes, string theory, etc.

The Higgs is just the beginning for this machine.

Capt'n Midnight

Not only are we not in CERN we still have Steorn and their 'Orbo energy' still operating here. :mad::mad::mad:

some solar panels are down to 99 cents a watt, and that's US cents

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not sure why the media are spinning it as if Ireland are being left out in the cold in that case

Why not invest in the new accelerator in Darmstadt instead. Bit late to be arriving at the CERN party now. Surely it'd be better to get in to a project which is still in the early stages.

Check what CERN stands for, I think that's why we aren't members of it. As for arriving late to the party, the party's been going on for a few decades so far and there's plenty of life left in it.

bleg

CERN is not equivalent to the LHC. The LHC is part of CERN.

n900guy

My name is URL wrote: »

So regardless of the quality of scientist that a country produces, they cannot be employed by CERN unless the country as a whole formally become members? That doesn't sound very progressive really.

It is progressive as it requires countries to actually fund research and science (instead of simply talking up the "knowledge economy") and collaborate with other countries instead of competing with them. With countries funding it there is less likely commercial and for-profit interference by the private sector.

Ireland also fails to meet many requirements for controlled trials for drug research so the private sector money that is there no longer comes in to the same degree as before.

If you don't have a bike you can't go cycling, I suppose.

OMARS_COMING_

Ireland should build its own version of cern,seriously.

We could train thousands of scientists and make huge discoveries that could help our economy.

steddyeddy

OMARS_COMING_ wrote: »

Ireland should build its own version of cern,seriously.

We could train thousands of scientists and make huge discoveries that could help our economy.

I wouldnt trust the Irish state to be able to do that without vested interests sneaking in.

Pushtrak

OMARS_COMING_ wrote: »

Ireland should build its own version of cern,seriously.

We could train thousands of scientists and make huge discoveries that could help our economy.

Yes, Ireland could do on its own what takes a concerted international effort and decades of funding and work to get done. Would get it done in a week, too. That, or we'd all forget about it. Actually, the latter sounds more likely.

juan.kerr

Deleted User wrote: »

Check what CERN stands for, I think that's why we aren't members of it. As for arriving late to the party, the party's been going on for a few decades so far and there's plenty of life left in it.

Yes, I think it is for non financial reasons.

OctavarIan

juan.kerr wrote: »

Yes, I think it is for non financial reasons.

The name is pretty meaningless at this stage.

Stinicker

No point in Ireland being members of CERN they would not employ the gombeen sons and daughters of the Fianna Fail traitors, we'd be members of thicko's inc. or whatever the equivalent is though if it meant "jobs for the boys".

juan.kerr

OctavarIan wrote: »

The name is pretty meaningless at this stage.

So you think that we were spending three quarters of a billion a year on foreign aid 5 years ago but didn't want to spend 20 million on this?

FishBowel

Stinicker wrote: »

No point in Ireland being members of CERN they would not employ the gombeen sons and daughters of the Fianna Fail traitors, we'd be members of thicko's inc. or whatever the equivalent is though if it meant "jobs for the boys".

Don't forget the female gender quota

OctavarIan

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you think that we were spending three quarters of a billion a year on foreign aid 5 years ago but didn't want to spend 20 million on this?

Well obviously we didn't. It could have been for any number of reasons. It certainly wasn't because we saw the word 'nuclear' in the name and ran off scared though :pac:

juan.kerr

OctavarIan wrote: »

Well obviously we didn't. It could have been for any number of reasons. It certainly wasn't because we saw the word 'nuclear' in the name and ran off scared though :pac:

I don't think anyone is suggesting its that facile.

OctavarIan

juan.kerr wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting its that facile.

Someone did on the previous page.