Cyclist with earphones vs driver with radio on

monument

http://rideons.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/an-ear-on-the-traffic/

Who hears more of the traffic buzz – a driver using his in-car music system or a bike rider using an iPod and earphones? Simon Vincett and Stephen Huntley went seeking evidence.

opti0nal

While the numbers might be correct, I'd say that any hearing impairment at all has far more serious consequences for the cyclist than the motorist.

On a bike, 100% environment awareness is needed.

ednwireland

if i have the radio on in the car or not you dont hear much of the environment, on a bike i prefer to able to hear cars coming up behind me (i cycle mostly on country roads) so i dont wear any sort of earphones (never have, i would proabaly find it very weird)

AstraMonti

opti0nal wrote: »

On a bike, 100% environment awareness is needed.

If you have a neck that you can use to look around and you have the volume at a reasonable level then you have 100% environment awareness, there is no evidence saying otherwise.

ThisRegard

There's no comparison really. If you're deaf in a car you're less likely to be surprised by a car appearing at your shoulder ready to push you towards a ditch than a cyclist listening to music at full volume.

On a bike ears are your first sense to alert you of any traffic around you, in a car you have your mirrors around you.

triggermortis

If I'm out on my bike, I don't need music as there is enough going on to keep me entertained. If I were to wear headphones, I'd probably spend more time drumming on the handlebars along to the beat than taking notice of what I'm doing and even worse, singing along (out loud and very out of tune)

hohojojo

i only ever cycle with my left ear phone in at last that way i can still hear the traffic and listen to my music

when i drive i tend not to have the radio blowing the windows out sure you wouldn't be able to consentrate properly and there is no way you'd hear anything else but my girlfriend drives with the radio blarring and she s a terrible driver when she is on her on in the car i been behind and seen the results

Stokolan

I tried cycling a few time with earphones in I always had to take out one side so I could either hear a car coming or if a dog was after me. If I couldn't hear I'd spend more time wondering if something is behind me then just enjoying my spin

I just couldn't get used to not being able to hear anything around me. Even in a car I tend to have the radio down low as I like being able to hear Around me.

subway

my opinion is similar to many of those expressed, in that, the question is not "who hears more", but "who needs to hear more"

most cars are in a queue, single file for miles on end. all you need to do is watch the bumper in front. the problem with many cars is not switching from passive driving to active driving when needed. hence some drivers randomly change lane and do other idiotic things, etc

cycling, on the other hand, is mostly always active. if you are not skipping traffic, beating lights, dropping the other guy or just trying to trigger a speed camera you are probably not commuting in heavy traffic.

i cant wear earphones on the bike or on the motorbike, because I'm never just going with the flow and always looking for a gap to dart through and earphones (which ive tried) cost me just enough awareness that i wont wear them.

Hungrycol

I use headphones to block out all those awful grinding, rubbing, creaking, and knocking noises from my bike . If I can't hear it it must be fine.

Kidding of course but I use headphones every now and then on my commute but not often. It does impair sense of awareness a bit but certainly not to the extent that make me more vulnerable or act differently. A pair of those noise cancelling headphones might be a bit OTT.

buffalo

Stokolan wrote: »

I tried cycling a few time with earphones in I always had to take out one side so I could either hear a car coming or if a dog was after me. If I couldn't hear I'd spend more time wondering if something is behind me then just enjoying my spin

I just couldn't get used to not being able to hear anything around me. Even in a car I tend to have the radio down low as I like being able to hear Around me.

I just leave one side out all the time. Left ear music, right (roadside) ear for traffic. I could even hear the UPS van undertaking me this morning, despite it being on my musical side. He waved afterwards, I'm not sure if he was apologising or just saying hello. Maybe he wanted a high five...

doozerie

I think the biggest danger, whether cycling or driving, is lack of alertness. It can arise due to tiredness, due to being distracted by other things in your immediate surroundings (e.g. your phone and that witty text that you simply have to send right now, in the middle of traffic, or the world will stop spinning), due to your mind being absorbed with something else, etc.

There seems to be an assumption by many that having headphones in falls entirely into the category of things that detract from alertness, and it certainly does sometimes, but I don't think it's always the case. In certain circumstances I think that listening to music (or whatever) can actually sharpen your focus on your surroundings, I certainly know that in my case when I'm particularly tired and distracted I listen to music while commuting by bike and it keeps my mind from wandering too far away from what is going on around me. I've had occasions where I couldn't recall any of the last several kilometres of my commute so I couldn't say for sure that, for example, the lights were really green at all of those junctions I've just passed through - I'm not sure I've ever experienced that while listening to music on the bike but I have certainly experienced it while not wearing headphones.

As far as I am aware, music is often piped into the likes of factory assembly lines to help staff from mentally drifting off due to the repetitive nature of their work and making mistakes or slowing productivity as a result, and to me negotiating the same commute route day in day out sometimes feels just as repetitive and boring so anything that keeps me from dwelling on that can be good. Similarly if I am driving a long distance by car I sometimes find that listening to the radio keeps me from completely zoning out.

Volume of music can cause its own problems of course, regardless of anything else. If it blocks out all surrounding external sounds then that can be a problem. And alertness itself only goes so far too - being 100% alert isn't much good if you are entirely focused only on the fact that the music playing at level 11 is causing your brain to dribble out your nose.

Qualitymark

Try wearing earphones with music playing when you're in the car, and you'll find them much more distracting than the car radio. I was amazed when I discovered this.

lennymc

i read somewhere (i have no idea where so no link) that riding with earphones can raise your situational awareness by causing you to subconciously make more of an effort to use your other senses to assess your location and any dangers. Similar to drivers taking more risks becuase they feel cars are safer when they have abs, airbags etc.

Personally (and this is just my opinion) I ride with earphones sometimes, with what i would consider to be a normal volume, and havent really noticed any difference in my awareness of whats around me. I come from a motorcycling background and have done advanced rider training in the past, where a lot of emphasis was placed on knowing what is around you, which was achieved mostly by looking around and identifying/knowing what hazards are about. (the wind noise on motorbikes can be onver 100DB, so your ears are pretty much useless anyway).I think that is probably coming into play in my cycling. I also think that maybe too much emphasis is placed on hearing, and not enough on actually looking to see whats around you.

It will be interesting when electric cars become more prevelant - i would imagine that in certain scenarios (riding into the wind, or if it was raining, for example) they would be quite difficult to hear approaching from behind.

doozerie

lennymc wrote:

It will be interesting when electric cars become more prevelant - i would imagine that in certain scenarios (riding into the wind, or if it was raining, for example) they would be quite difficult to hear approaching from behind.

I think this is already a recognised issue, in fact. I read somewhere or other that the car industry has been asked if they can have electric cars make noise to reduce the risk of people just stepping out in front of them. I think that there have already been such incidents. I also think that similar concerns were expressed about the LUAS too, at some point.

From here:

And so Jennings and his team are trying to figure out how to add warning sounds to electric vehicles. They are testing a range of sounds in the lab – everything from fairly regular “car” noises to UFO sounds straight out of “The Jetsons.”

I propose that electric cars in Dublin be obliged to loop the following audio "Fookin' traffic sucks, I'm crawling here. I WANNA BIKE!!! *sob*"

From here:

Today's action, which is mandated by the Pedestrian Safety Enhancement Act of 2010, will help NHTSA lay the groundwork for a proposed rulemaking to help pedestrians detect the presence of quieter vehicles. NHTSA will evaluate the merits of possible rulemakings, including requiring electric and hybrid carmakers to add sounds that alert the visually-impaired and other pedestrians when these vehicles are operating in certain low speed maneuvers.

I particularly like a later sentence in that article where a NHTSA guy says that they "remain laser focused on safety" - hmm, lasers and safety, there's a fun mix!

Crow92

Just use this and you have the best of both worlds
Loud enough even when traffics going by, though if the batteries low it doesn't play at the highest volume properly.

Canis Lupus

Been cycling for years with earphones. This nonsense about how you shouldn't listen to music when you cycle gets my goat about as much as people telling me my head will fall off because I don't cycle with a helmet (except I'm currently in Australia and forced by law to look like a douche)

superlav

I often cycle with headphones in and have to agree with lennymc.
If anything when I have headphones in I feel more aware of my surroundings, as I make no assumptions that I'll hear anything coming and will always look.

I find it's actaully helped me develop some good habits e.g. always looking over my shoulder before changing line\overtaking a slower cyclist

I have had buses and cars scare the bejaysus out of me on occasion when I've had no earphones in, I reckon this was becasue I had assumed I would hear anything sneaking up beside me, but this is not always the case in city traffic.

Headphones in or out, the best way to be aware of your suroundings is to use your eye's and your neck.

ThisRegard

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Been cycling for years with earphones. This nonsense about how you shouldn't listen to music when you cycle gets my goat about as much as people telling me my head will fall off because I don't cycle with a helmet (except I'm currently in Australia and forced by law to look like a douche)

I don't think this is a thread telling you that you shouldn't wear headphones, it's a discussion on the levels of awareness between listening to headphones on a bike and a radio in a car.

Lots of posters have said they use earphones and no one has played the Maude Flanders card yet.

monument

Like others I will wear a ear phone in just the left ear when cycling on the road, and often in both ears when off road -- a balance depending on the environment and conditions. Regardless, the volume will be low enough. At some really busy or large junctions I'll pull out the ear phone, just as I'll pull off a hood even if it's raining when passing such junctions.

Never mind electric cars, in traffic hearing is important for cyclists but not as much as its made out to be and on quiter streets I find when I'm not looking some modern cars can get fairly close before you hear them.

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Been cycling for years with earphones. This nonsense about how you shouldn't listen to music when you cycle gets my goat about as much as people telling me my head will fall off because I don't cycle with a helmet (except I'm currently in Australia and forced by law to look like a douche)

+2

Both are just emotional reactions to the perceived dangers of cycling.

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no comparison really. If you're deaf in a car you're less likely to be surprised by a car appearing at your shoulder ready to push you towards a ditch than a cyclist listening to music at full volume.

On a bike ears are your first sense to alert you of any traffic around you, in a car you have your mirrors around you.

Learning how to look around -- mainly look over your shoulder often -- is one of the basic things cyclists should learn. Relying on sound mostly or mainly is not a good idea in an urban setting at least.

Deaf people tent to get better at looking around than non-deaf people -- the same can't be said about many drivers who don't look in their mirrors or don't look out for cyclists.

ednwireland wrote: »

if i have the radio on in the car or not you dont hear much of the environment, ...

Sounds like a good reason to remove the sound proofing from around the driver in the car!

buffalo

monument wrote: »

Like others I will wear a ear phone in just the left ear when cycling on the road, and often in both ears when off road -- a balance depending on the environment and conditions. Regardless, the volume will be low enough. At some really busy or large junctions I'll pull out the ear phone, just as I'll pull off a hood even if it's raining when passing such junctions.

This is probably a bigger danger than headphones - cyclists and pedestrians wearing hoods, who don't realise their peripheral vision is obliterated.

Add to that the fact that traffic is heavier when it rains, and more often gridlocked, and you've got a perfect storm for pedestrians stepping off the path without checking for cyclists. Feck this headphone thread, let's derail!

Qualitymark

Probably the best headphone to wear - when the price comes down to something possible - is the kind that works by resonating in the bones of your cheeks rather than blocking your ears, so that you can hear perfectly over it.

Tomk1

My sister a nurse made me promise never to wear headphones while cycling, she said she had a cyclist in A&E who was hit from behind by a truck, he didn't hear the truck because of the headphones, ''the sadle was right up...inside..a real mess, don't want to talk about, just promise never to wear headphones on a bike''

But I have used earplugs on the neck/shoulders area under the ears. I tried in the ears but found them too much of a nuisance/restriction when turning my head to look around.

el tel

I can see a cycling ban for deaf or hearing impaired riders coming...:p

Stollaire

Maybe it's my big lugs, but I can't hear much when cycling in any sort of wind.
I always rely on shoulder checks. You really can't rely on the rev of an accelerating engine to get a picture of what is around you.

Stollaire

Tomk1 wrote: »

My sister a nurse made me promise never to wear headphones while cycling, she said she had a cyclist in A&E who was hit from behind by a truck, he didn't hear the truck because of the headphones, ''the sadle was right up...inside..a real mess, don't want to talk about, just promise never to wear headphones on a bike''

But I have used earplugs on the neck/shoulders area under the ears. I tried in the ears but found them too much of a nuisance/restriction when turning my head to look around.

This really is more of a case of the driver wasn't aware or paying attention to the road rather than the cyclist not hearing the truck speeding into the back of him.

lennymc

according to this site, the wind noise generated at 50mph is about 95 db. OK, thats on a motorbike, but it goes to show that wind noise can be loud (and drown out other road noises)

It also claims "Once speeds exceed approximately 30mph, wind noise dominates completely. " and "the wind noise at highway speed is nearly 10 times greater than when wearing a full coverage helmet. " (They are talking about motorbike helmets, but lets assume that we are not wearing full coverage helments on our pushbikes)

http://www.hearingtestlabs.com/motorcycle.htm

I dunno where i going with this.

buffalo

Stollaire wrote: »

This really is more of a case of the driver wasn't aware or paying attention to the road rather than the cyclist not hearing the truck speeding into the back of him.

Aye, what was the truck driver's defence? He was wearing headphones, so I couldn't see him?

I don't know the facts of the case mentioned obviously, but if I heard a truck behind me, I'd just assume it was going to go past me.

Canis Lupus

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think this is a thread telling you that you shouldn't wear headphones, it's a discussion on the levels of awareness between listening to headphones on a bike and a radio in a car.

Lots of posters have said they use earphones and no one has played the Maude Flanders card yet.

2nd post in the thread is an example and this particular thread is a slight anomaly in that there's usually quite a few who predict instant death to those who cycle with earphones and question our intelligence.

Tomk1 wrote: »

My sister a nurse made me promise never to wear headphones while cycling, she said she had a cyclist in A&E who was hit from behind by a truck, he didn't hear the truck because of the headphones, ''the sadle was right up...inside..a real mess, don't want to talk about, just promise never to wear headphones on a bike''

It's always said on other threads that doctors/nurses are the ones who only ever see the bad ****. It's already been said but if he was taken from behind....ahem... then earphones or not it would have made no difference.

funnights74

i'd hate to be involved in an accident and have ear phones on at the time, straight away you are going to be accused of not being able to hear what was going on around ya and not concentrating because you were listening too music/radio. I have worn ear phones a few times years ago but stopped because i found them uncomfortable, i had no trouble hearing what was going on around me.
People who knew me and were driving at the time mentioned this to me but i replied that i had no problem hearing traffic with ear phones on, and i would hear more on my bike than they do in a car with the radio on. They were not convinced and were not willing take me up on the challenge to try it for themselves.

Popoutman

As for me - I hear better with earphones in. I've got hearing that was damaged by medication I had to take a few years back, and as a result certain high frequencies can appear louder to me than other sounds. Wind noise and other such higher-frequency pink noise types make it very hard for me to hear well the lower frequency ranges. Putting the iPhone earbuds in heavily reduces the wind noise, and as such allows me to hear the (very slightly reduced in volume) traffic noises and other important-to-know sounds. I.e. the earbuds drop the noise floor for me, increasing the contrast between ambient noises and wind noise. I run the "Cyctastic" app and I can hear the feedback notices clearly without drowning out the road noises.

I know for sure that I can hear better on the bike with earbuds than I can in the car with the radio on, but I have well-directed mirrors on the car that allow my checking of my situation regularly whereas I must physically look over / under my shoulders to get the same checking.

I am safer with the earbuds in with my particular circumstances, but most people may not be safer with ordinary hearing impaired by the buds.

(edit to say that I tend not to listen to music while cycling as it does block the ambient sounds. And I have learned to look every so often, same as scanning mirrors in a car, it's just a good habit for total situational awareness.)

opti0nal

monument wrote: »

Learning how to look around -- mainly look over your shoulder often -- is one of the basic things cyclists should learn. Relying on sound mostly or mainly is not a good idea in an urban setting at least

Hearing and looking over one's shoulder is better again.

The engine tone I hear cues me up as to what kind of vehicle is coming up behind and how fast it is. In traffic, I'm listening for clutch movement and gear changes of vehicles especially given Irish driver's reluctance to indicate & the possibility that one's only warning of being cut up will be the change in revs.

If i must concentrate on watching what's in front of me, my hearing will give me 'eyes in the back of my head'. Both ears will help localise what's coming behind.

When passing riders, if they don't have headphones I know they will hear my polite greetings and not be alarmed as I go by. In cycling groups, headphone-wearing is banned as it affects the ability to communicate directions and hazards.

Finally, it's a matter of being wholly present & engaged, sonically and mentally in the moment and the environment you're in.

monument

opti0nal wrote: »

Finally, it's a matter of being wholly present & engaged, sonically and mentally in the moment and the environment you're in.

So you subscribe to the idea of removing sound proofing and radios from cars?

ednwireland

monument wrote: »

So you subscribe to the idea of removing sound proofing and radios from cars?

i do (actually not radios but less soundproofing would be good maybe a limit on radio volume i know i listen to mine too loud luckily the speakers distort), in fact remove the windscreen that would make drivers drive slower

jaqian

my concern would be if you are in a crash you won't be able to argue that you were paying attention and were aware of your environment etc.

BofaDeezNuhtz

Ahh here, headfones are getting a bad rap lads, headfones are great...

yisser just using them wrong, give her some Dubstep to listen to...

Cookie_Monster

I don't wear headphones because the wind noise annoys me too much when wearing them and I'm not bothered spending money on a set good enough to overcome it.

Wishbone Ash

I never wear them because I can manage to get through life without this obsession with listening to music at every opportunity.

(....and, as my username shows, it's not that I've no interest in music, there's just a time and place).

buffalo

piston

It's often windy on the routes I cycle and I rarely hear anything above 15mph anyway.

cdaly_

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't wear headphones because the wind noise annoys me too much when wearing them and I'm not bothered spending money on a set good enough to overcome it.

I wear them 'cos the wind noise annoys me too much when not wearing them.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I never wear them because I can manage to get through life without this obsession with listening to music at every opportunity.

(....and, as my username shows, it's not that I've no interest in music, there's just a time and place).

And the time and place is when I'm out on the bike 'cos nobody's asking me to turn it down or saying 'Dad, I think you're ready for this band now'...

rp

thanks for resurrecting the thread, or I wouldn't have seen the iLuv speakers.
Ordered from Amazon, soon the Clash will be ringing out the length of the N4...

b318isp

I wasn't really impressed with the OP's link. It ignored the fact that we tend to only listen (as opposed to hear) one thing at a time - we cannot follow two conversations at one time, for example.

When music is playing, there is a risk that the rider will listening dominantly to this. As others have said, this situational awareness is more critical for cyclists than dirvers - and I'm thinking about avoiding potholes, drains, debris, etc.

I have also found that headphones seems to affect my sense of balance, I seem to be a little less steady on the bike, but it may just be me.

cassette50

I play it safe and only use my earphones when I have my helmet on.

P_1

Personally I think that when you're driving you tend to use you sense of vision more thanks to having the use on mirrors but when cycling you tend to use your sense of hearing more thanks to not having the use of mirrors

07Lapierre

I prefer to listen to music ( at a low volume) while cycling to work. Makes a change from wind, car tyre roar etc.

droidus

P_1 wrote: »

Personally I think that when you're driving you tend to use you sense of vision more thanks to having the use on mirrors but when cycling you tend to use your sense of hearing more thanks to not having the use of mirrors

Dont agree.

As a cyclist, your primary sense is visual. Of all road users you have the best visual field. You're higher than everyone else, you have peripheral vision and you can turn your head freely.

Iwannahurl

Good topic for a thread.

I used to think cyclists with earphones were irredeemably stupid, but now I'm somewhat ambivalent on the issue.

On the one hand, especially in the cycle-hostile Irish roads and traffic environment, cycling with earphones in is asking for trouble. Playing loud music while driving can be a serious distraction, although it's not known whether that translates into significantly increased crash risk. When I cycle I use audio cues a lot, and I feel I'd be significantly impaired if I had earphones on.

On the other hand, I had a change of attitude after visiting Copenhagen. The picture below is enough to send a lot of people in Ireland and the UK -- including a large brigade of do-gooders -- into a state of stratospheric apoplexy. No helmet! Pregnant!! Earphones!!! Burn the witch.

My impression of Copenhagen cyclists was that droves of them cycled with earphones and headphones on. They looked relaxed and happy, and why not? The city of Copenhagen has provided them with a generally easy environment for cycling, so they feel safe and confident most of the time. It's a form of risk compensation, perhaps, but the context is that Copenhagen City Council has made cycling an easy choice. If motorists can blithely cruise (or race) around with the radio on, why not cyclists? Why should cyclists have to make sacrifices to make the streets safer, cities more pleasant and transportation more sustainable?

If you can create a roads and traffic environment where headphones can be used with confidence and without disapproval then you have reached a state where cycling is genuinely a more attractive option than using the car. That's a good result, in my opinion.

Cienciano

I think the main difference is that in a car you don't need to hear traffic. You can't, you're in a car!
While cycling, hearing is an extra sense you have available to you. Why would you want to lose it by sticking in headphones?
Personal choice, but definitely not for me.

P_1

droidus wrote: »

Dont agree.

As a cyclist, your primary sense is visual. Of all road users you have the best visual field. You're higher than everyone else, you have peripheral vision and you can turn your head freely.

True but you can't turn your head freely to see what's going on behind you. You can do that in a car with the mirrors, on a bike you need to hear whats going on behind you.

check_six

Cienciano wrote: »

I think the main difference is that in a car you don't need to hear traffic. You can't, you're in a car!

Umm... I open the windows on my car when turning out of blind tricky side roads so I can hear things coming. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Do I need to jam up the volume instead?