What to serving Guards think of the new Rosters,,

elaverty

Lads if you wouldnt mind answering this for me please,,i have been the victim of a crime recently and am just wondering what the general view of members is on the new rosters that came in April,im very concerned about this 6 Days on,4 days rest system thats been piloted at the minute,as because of it,i have been left very dissapointed with the outcome of my particular situation and the Guards ability/moral..I am hopeing that it may have been a once of result and that it is not the way things are being handled on a daily basis,Can you please renew my confidence\respect in the force and the system and agree with me as a member of the public that there is no way this system can be sustained,for the sake of what aver bit of law and order is still out there,,,thanks,,

goldie fish

Do you prefer the 7 days on 2 off roster of the past? How has the new roster impacted you, as a victim of crime?

elaverty

I had no experience of the previous rosters so i cant comment on weather they were better or not,all i know is that i got poor results due to the present rostering system,as there wasnt anything done about the crime untill the investigating Garda came back from his four days of leave,as far as i am concerned no other Guard could/would get involved with it,and hence 4 days was lost on the investigation.I cant Imagen how the older system could have been any more no productive as this system and in my case the present system has been a total let down and i cant see how the serving members can think that it would be better,,,thanks

Mr Jinx

elaverty wrote: »

I had no experience of the previous rosters so i cant comment on weather they were better or not,all i know is that i got poor results due to the present rostering system,as there wasnt anything done about the crime untill the investigating Garda came back from his four days of leave,as far as i am concerned no other Guard could/would get involved with it,and hence 4 days was lost on the investigation.I cant Imagen how the older system could have been any more no productive as this system and in my case the present system has been a total let down and i cant see how the serving members can think that it would be better,,,thanks

Serious question, and not making light of whatever you were a victim off, but maybe you could give us an idea of what the crime was and what difference 2 days will make to the investigation?
The investigation of an offence can take weeks, months even before it gets to court. Sometimes the public dont realise this and expect things to happen straight away.

Tyron Jara

elaverty wrote: »

I had no experience of the previous rosters so i cant comment on weather they were better or not,all i know is that i got poor results due to the present rostering system,as there wasnt anything done about the crime untill the investigating Garda came back from his four days of leave,as far as i am concerned no other Guard could/would get involved with it,and hence 4 days was lost on the investigation.I cant Imagen how the older system could have been any more no productive as this system and in my case the present system has been a total let down and i cant see how the serving members can think that it would be better,,,thanks

With that four days leave the hours are made up in the other 6 days with ten hour shifts. The garda has more than enough time to investigate what has happened. A guard does 60 hours of work on average a week if not more I think there entitled to the four days off dont you??

elaverty

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Serious question, and not making light of whatever you were a victim off, but maybe you could give us an idea of what the crime was and what difference 2 days will make to the investigation?
The investigation of an offence can take weeks, months even before it gets to court. Sometimes the public dont realise this and expect things to happen straight away.

OK,heres the story...The crime was a burglary breakin,,a significant amount of cash was taken,and tools also,it was a business premises,The culprit was ID via CCTV,I had a name and where abouts of him 24hrs later which i handed on to the guards,,but as the investigateing guard had started his 4 days leave on the morning of the breakin,i was told that nothing could be done untill he returned (4 days later),every hour that went by meant there was less of my money left to retrieve,and to date one week later other cctv has not been inspected,So 2 days would have made a big difference to the culprit being apprehended,let alone 4 days,,and hightened the chances of the guards retriveing my money and tools,dont you think ?

elaverty

Tyron Jara wrote: »

With that four days leave the hours are made up in the other 6 days with ten hour shifts. The garda has more than enough time to investigate what has happened. A guard does 60 hours of work on average a week if not more I think there entitled to the four days off dont you??

I have no problem with a guard haveing his time off,what i have a problem with is there was no other guards there to cover his case while he was away,so how can the investigation continue in a serious way,straight after the crime which is the most important time to do it,he can spend all the time he wants on the case 4 days later,,,,but its too little too late,,

Zambia

Once the crime is investigated the offender caught then your cash becomes evidence and is probably held till the offender case heard and appeal process complete.

So 4 days is going to be the least of your issue.

Sadly I reckon the officer has several other cases on the Go at the one time all with victims that need to be seen to.

In the legal issues forum they may be able to answer answer the question of wether compensation orders to victims can be included in the Officers brief.

elaverty

The odds of catching him are greatly deminished when there is nothing done for 4 days is my point...and very little if anything done the next 3 days,,,i will repeat that they had the name of the culprit 24 hrs later,and because of the system,with the rosters,nothing was done about it,,,how can that be a progressive system that gets results,,

Nonoperational

Agree, ridiculous that nothing would be done for 4 days.

Eru

Reality:

That Garda has probable ten other cases on the go

He / She will not be given the time to hunt down this suspect and instead will spend the next week being put on posts and beats instead because of lack of numbers. Then and only then will he / she get to try and solve the case.

Unless the suspect left the cash in his sock drawer and you can provide full serial numbers, its unlikely to be matched or given back.

It doesnt matter if we work 6 / 4 off or any other system. We will still take time off and having other officers stamping over your case would not be time efficient for the organisation as a whole or for individual Garda.

We are humans working to live, not living to work and the time off makes **** all difference to a case. A genuinely time sensitive case will result in an officer staying on and claiming overtime but then how many threads here moan about this practice?

Put it another way, what if the officer had leave booked or was sick? Should that be cancelled? Sorry but the answer is no.

And besides, what your suggesting is that Garda rosters and rest periods should be made in such a manner than it wont impact on a person who arrives into a station unannounced with CCTV footage and expects the Garda to drop everything and come rushing to work.

Sometimes due to my working life the bank not being open at night doesnt suit me, should they change?

Its neither fair or realistic to expect people to change their lives because of you.

First Aid Ireland

Eru wrote: »

Reality:

That Garda has probable ten other cases on the go

He / She will not be given the time to hunt down this suspect and instead will spend the next week being put on posts and beats instead because of lack of numbers. Then and only then will he / she get to try and solve the case.

Unless the suspect left the cash in his sock drawer and you can provide full serial numbers, its unlikely to be matched or given back.

It doesnt matter if we work 6 / 4 off or any other system. We will still take time off and having other officers stamping over your case would not be time efficient for the organisation as a whole or for individual Garda.

We are humans working to live, not living to work and the time off makes **** all difference to a case. A genuinely time sensitive case will result in an officer staying on and claiming overtime but then how many threads here moan about this practice?

Put it another way, what if the officer had leave booked or was sick? Should that be cancelled? Sorry but the answer is no.

And besides, what your suggesting is that Garda rosters and rest periods should be made in such a manner than it wont impact on a person who arrives into a station unannounced with CCTV footage and expects the Garda to drop everything and come rushing to work.

Sometimes due to my working life the bank not being open at night doesnt suit me, should they change?

Its neither fair or realistic to expect people to change their lives because of you.

You're very defensive. From my reading of the guy's original post, he was just asking a question.

audidiesel

personally i like them a lot in comparison to the old ones. i hate the 7am shifts but all the others are great.

when your working your working for the day but at least now i can have something resembling a normal enough working week.

you were unfortunate with the timing of the incident but honestly i think its ludicrous to suggest changing the rostering system of thousands of guards for occasional incidents like this.

having multiple guards investigating the same incident is a no no aswell as it would be horribly inefficient and would end up with 2-3 people doing the same job at slightly different times.

also as mentioned an investigations timeline in reality and with what the public think are two totally seperate things.

in short to answer your original question, overall, i like them

Locust

4 early's in a row are a killer!

I think management need to put something in place that the onus of investigation can be spread amongst a team of people, rather than one member. 4 days off can really stall an investigation. But ERU is right - reality is the guard is guaranteed to be swamped in other cases, that have been going on longer and may have to take precedence.

I know in the UK they have 'case progression officers' that the arresting/initial member dealing with the case can pass info on to another officer who progresses the case a bit further. Sounded to me like a great idea.

elaverty

Eru wrote: »

Reality:

That Garda has probable ten other cases on the go

He / She will not be given the time to hunt down this suspect and instead will spend the next week being put on posts and beats instead because of lack of numbers. Then and only then will he / she get to try and solve the case.

Unless the suspect left the cash in his sock drawer and you can provide full serial numbers, its unlikely to be matched or given back.

It doesnt matter if we work 6 / 4 off or any other system. We will still take time off and having other officers stamping over your case would not be time efficient for the organisation as a whole or for individual Garda.

We are humans working to live, not living to work and the time off makes **** all difference to a case. A genuinely time sensitive case will result in an officer staying on and claiming overtime but then how many threads here moan about this practice?

Put it another way, what if the officer had leave booked or was sick? Should that be cancelled? Sorry but the answer is no.

And besides, what your suggesting is that Garda rosters and rest periods should be made in such a manner than it wont impact on a person who arrives into a station unannounced with CCTV footage and expects the Garda to drop everything and come rushing to work.

Sometimes due to my working life the bank not being open at night doesnt suit me, should they change?

Its neither fair or realistic to expect people to change their lives because of you.

And besides, what your suggesting is that Garda rosters and rest periods should be made in such a manner than it wont impact on a person who arrives into a station unannounced with CCTV footage and expects the Garda to drop everything and come rushing to work.

What im suggesting is that there is someone there to investigate the case,in this case there was no one there to investigate/take details/look at footage/interview a cctv identified suspect etc,now how can you say that this is a good way of doing things for the public,it may well suite you and your members,but it certainly dosnt suite the victims of crime who are the people that you have sworn to protect and are also the people that pay your wages,there is no way in gods name you can get job satisfaction and have respect for the job your are doing under these conditions,and if you do,well god help us all..

MagicSean

elaverty wrote: »

the people that pay your wages,..

The dept of Justice?

goldie fish

MagicSean wrote: »

The dept of Justice?

Comptroller General

Zambia

OP how would you design a roster that would meet the needs of the victim like yourself?

elaverty

I would make sure that there was someone allways on duty able to investigate someones case,and not leaving 4 days pass without anyone being able to do so,,now maybe that means recruiting more guards and not just changeing the rosters,,,,

Zambia

That sounds great but how would you do it?

Pappa Charlie

elaverty wrote: »

I would make sure that there was someone allways on duty able to investigate someones case,and not leaving 4 days pass without anyone being able to do so,,now maybe that means recruiting more guards and not just changeing the rosters,,,,

You could ask to see the sergeant or superintendent in relation to this information and he/she may well arrange for someone to look into it in the meantime if it is appropiate

Eru

elaverty wrote: »

What im suggesting is that there is someone there to investigate the case,in this case there was no one there to investigate/take details/look at footage/interview a cctv identified suspect

Unless your changing your story, the original Garda has already started the investigation, taken details and will look at footage and then having spent a week or two trying to ID the suspect will eventually arrest them, your ID or whoever elses will only come into play if that person is willing to stand in the witness box and state it is. Besides that, victime and witnesses are not supposed to view the CCTV (again thats the justice system) so whoever has done the ID probable wont count.

If you think were all sitting around waiting for a case to fall into our laps which will be wrapped up by the credits then I have some very bad news, this isnt Rookie Blue, CSI, the Bill or any other show on TV. Its reality and cases take months, not minutes to solve.

elaverty wrote: »

how can you say that this is a good way of doing things for the public

Its nothing to do with doing it for the public, its the reality of the situation, Watching CCTV takes time, we don't know all criminals, they don't always hand themselves in or wait at home for us. I could go on but you should see where this is going

elaverty wrote: »

that you have sworn to protect

I dont recall joining the NYPD but if I ever do I may well consider the people that I swear to protect and serve.

elaverty wrote: »

also the people that pay your wages,

Ha ha ha, how long did it take you to think of that original and witty comment? I pay more % of my wages in tax than you do and as you work in the service industry I actually pay YOUR wages far more directly.

elaverty wrote: »

there is no way in gods name you can get job satisfaction and have respect for the job your are doing under these conditions,and if you do,well god help us all..

I don't get that at all, why do I require job satisfaction and why would having it be a bad thing?

Look, you may not like the reality but that does not change it, you may think its not the best way and too be honest, its not but that's the Justice system in all its beauty. Were a small part of the system and the failings within the system have absolutely nothing to do with our rosters.

Why aren't you complaining about the lack of Gardai or that were overloaded or that the case remained with a uniform Garda who is expected to do beats and response car work instead of being with a detective who is sitting on his arse in an office?

Your one genuine complaint here is that the CCTV still hasn't been watched, that's a fair comment but I guarantee its because the Garda has been put on beats and posts every single day but then how do actually know that?

As for your last post, cmon now, what a hollow reply.

Eru

Locust wrote: »

4 early's in a row are a killer!

I think management need to put something in place that the onus of investigation can be spread amongst a team of people, rather than one member. 4 days off can really stall an investigation. But ERU is right - reality is the guard is guaranteed to be swamped in other cases, that have been going on longer and may have to take precedence.

I know in the UK they have 'case progression officers' that the arresting/initial member dealing with the case can pass info on to another officer who progresses the case a bit further. Sounded to me like a great idea.

PM on the way

Eru

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

You're very defensive. From my reading of the guy's original post, he was just asking a question.

And I think your naive if you think the OP wasnt going down the tried and true moaning and whinging road. Sure Jesus, the guy wants the investigating Garda at his call 24/7 for whenever he randomly arrives in the station ffs!

First Aid Ireland

Eru wrote: »

And I think your naive if you think the OP wasnt going down the tried and true moaning and whinging road. Sure Jesus, the guy wants the investigating Garda at his call 24/7 for whenever he randomly arrives in the station ffs!

I think it's entirely possible that the attitude shown to him didn't help in forging the direction things took. You should know that better than me.

The reality is that all of us who work int he public sector almost always fall short when serving whatever community we serve. We get defensive about it (some more than others, and with reliable regularity) but the public are frustrated out there.

To Joe Public it's not acceptable that if they happen to be the victim of a crime when the garda is abot to go on leave, then the investigation halts there and then. I never knew that, and the people I told about it tonight were really surprised about it. I think the average person on the street thinks that it gets passed on and the next shift deals with it. there may be operational reasons for that. But it's not something that you would expect the public to just take at face value and not question it, because it sounds bizarre.

I've been embarrassed working in the public sector. So don't get me wrong. I know these shortfalls happen in all sectors. But we need to get past the point where we feel shocked and defensive when the public question us, or complain about us. Because the irish public by and large get a poor public service compared to other developed countries.

audidiesel

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

The reality is that all of us who work int he public sector almost always fall short when serving whatever community we serve. We get defensive about it (some more than others, and with reliable regularity) but the public are frustrated out there.

To Joe Public it's not acceptable that if they happen to be the victim of a crime when the garda is abot to go on leave, then the investigation halts there and then. I never knew that, and the people I told about it tonight were really surprised about it. I think the average person on the street thinks that it gets passed on and the next shift deals with it. there may be operational reasons for that. But it's not something that you would expect the public to just take at face value and not question it, because it sounds bizarre.

I've been embarrassed working in the public sector. So don't get me wrong. I know these shortfalls happen in all sectors. But we need to get past the point where we feel shocked and defensive when the public question us, or complain about us. Because the irish public by and large get a poor public service compared to other developed countries.

genuinely the guards is definately one area of the public sector that isnt overstaffed. as a result of people retireing etc there are less of us to handle investigations.

added to this the demand for high visibility patrolling in towns and cities, plus well known lack of transport and i think guards have genuine reasons to get defensive.

its a possibility the the shop may have been a few miles from the station. if the investigating member came back and there was no patrol car available to him that may explain the delay viewing the footage.

i dont know any guard who hasnt got multiple cases under investigation. some of them are big ones that have been going on for weeks/months. others are more recent.

in some cases you may be up against a statute limit of 6 months for certain offences. if your coming up on that time, you would prioritise that investigation over any more recent ones.

the main problem isnt the rostering system. its the lack of bodies in the job causing much higher workloads which then affects performance in new cases as you try to get through the backlogs. even while your still taking on new investigations on an almost daily basis.

im not one bit embarassed by my job. but i am angry that its being driven into the ground by policy decisions and we then have to face the brunt of it and get bitched about left right and center when genuinely the vast majority of members are doing their best in impossible situations

First Aid Ireland

audidiesel wrote: »

genuinely the guards is definately one area of the public sector that isnt overstaffed. as a result of people retireing etc there are less of us to handle investigations.

added to this the demand for high visibility patrolling in towns and cities, plus well known lack of transport and i think guards have genuine reasons to get defensive.

its a possibility the the shop may have been a few miles from the station. if the investigating member came back and there was no patrol car available to him that may explain the delay viewing the footage.

i dont know any guard who hasnt got multiple cases under investigation. some of them are big ones that have been going on for weeks/months. others are more recent.

in some cases you may be up against a statute limit of 6 months for certain offences. if your coming up on that time, you would prioritise that investigation over any more recent ones.

the main problem isnt the rostering system. its the lack of bodies in the job causing much higher workloads which then affects performance in new cases as you try to get through the backlogs. even while your still taking on new investigations on an almost daily basis.

im not one bit embarassed by my job. but i am angry that its being driven into the ground by policy decisions and we then have to face the brunt of it and get bitched about left right and center when genuinely the vast majority of members are doing their best in impossible situations

I agree with you. I'm just saying that it's unreasonable for us to not expect the public to be surprised that an investigation goes on hold immediately if the garda is gonig away on holidays.

I imagine it would sound unacceptable to most people. Of course there are reasons for it. But we have to understand that people are going to be pissed off when they hear something like that. Just like they're pissed off when they hear their operation is cancelled, or that they have to pay to have the fire brigade out etc.

elaverty

Eru wrote: »

Unless your changing your story, the original Garda has already started the investigation, taken details and will look at footage and then having spent a week or two trying to ID the suspect will eventually arrest them, your ID or whoever elses will only come into play if that person is willing to stand in the witness box and state it is. Besides that, victime and witnesses are not supposed to view the CCTV (again thats the justice system) so whoever has done the ID probable wont count.

If you think were all sitting around waiting for a case to fall into our laps which will be wrapped up by the credits then I have some very bad news, this isnt Rookie Blue, CSI, the Bill or any other show on TV. Its reality and cases take months, not minutes to solve.


Its nothing to do with doing it for the public, its the reality of the situation, Watching CCTV takes time, we don't know all criminals, they don't always hand themselves in or wait at home for us. I could go on but you should see where this is going


I dont recall joining the NYPD but if I ever do I may well consider the people that I swear to protect and serve.


Ha ha ha, how long did it take you to think of that original and witty comment? I pay more % of my wages in tax than you do and as you work in the service industry I actually pay YOUR wages far more directly.


I don't get that at all, why do I require job satisfaction and why would having it be a bad thing?

Look, you may not like the reality but that does not change it, you may think its not the best way and too be honest, its not but that's the Justice system in all its beauty. Were a small part of the system and the failings within the system have absolutely nothing to do with our rosters.

Why aren't you complaining about the lack of Gardai or that were overloaded or that the case remained with a uniform Garda who is expected to do beats and response car work instead of being with a detective who is sitting on his arse in an office?

Your one genuine complaint here is that the CCTV still hasn't been watched, that's a fair comment but I guarantee its because the Garda has been put on beats and posts every single day but then how do actually know that?

As for your last post, cmon now, what a hollow reply.

I was wondering how long it would take to start the insults,sure sign that someone is under pressure..

How you can question that im changeing my story god knows,,the only correct bit is that a garda has started the investigation ( before his 4 days leave) thats all that was done,he answered a phone call/report.As said available footage still hasnt been looked at (8 days now),a statement was only asked for 4 days later when he returned from his leave,Hence my argument that nothing was done untill 4 days after the fact..ill highlight this bit for you as you seem to be missing it and are going else where,NOTHING WAS DONE FOR 4 DAYS,,

You dont have to know the crinimal...He has been ID,,I have told the guards his name,what he drives,where he lives,do i need to provide them with a blood sample to prove it,,

It didnt take me very long to come up with the comment about who pays your wages,in fact it was probably one of the first things that came to my mind,but i didnt like to say it,,,and how the f--- you make out that you pay my wages god knows,,,I run a business and the taxes i pay go to paying your wages simple as that..

So you dont need to get job satisfaction,,what a surprise,a person doing a menial job like sweeping a floor,has job satisfaction....i think you need a career change if you dont get job satisfaction,,,God only knows what job would suite you though with the attitude you have,maybe try Politics,,

I have no problem with a uniform guard investigateing the case,,,but he has to be on duty to be able to investigate it,and when he is gone for 4 days he isnt there is he ?

Anyway your attitude is only reinforcing my opinion of the attitude the guards are bringing to there job,,,which is 1;there just doing a weeks work for a weeks pay,2;not interested in following up on anything that might involve doing paperwork,3;only interested in apprehending people for mundane things like no tax,illegal parking,driveing 5kph over the speed limit,basically Copy and Paste stuff that dosnt involve loads of paperwork,,

We will have to agree to disagree i think,,Im really not interested in your reply s any more.....

elaverty

Eru wrote: »

And I think your naive if you think the OP wasnt going down the tried and true moaning and whinging road. Sure Jesus, the guy wants the investigating Garda at his call 24/7 for whenever he randomly arrives in the station ffs!

I would be happy with 5 minutes of a guards time after being reported,,,very hard to achieve when he is gone for 4 days,,And as for you moaning and whinging remark it only shows your ignorance,,I tried to phrase the original question in a way that wouldnt portray me as another moaner,as i was fairly confident that being called that is the standard reply when anyone has the nerve to question the guards,everyone that moans cant all be wrong and at times must be justified,,but when YOU dont want to see there right you wont entertain them,,Lets hope they never arm the ordinary guard as people will be shot for MOANING,,,I can see you going right to the top,if your not there allready,,

gerire

Those 4 days are REST days, aka his/her weekend, after working 60 hours in 6 days, not leave days, too much reading the indo...

You get a weekend off after your Monday to friday, assuming you work, are you telling me you have never had something that can be done on Monday instead of rushed on Friday?

Your desires to have this Garda available, at all times, when you want are simply unrealistic

Paulzx

elaverty wrote: »

I would be happy with 5 minutes of a guards time after being reported,,,very hard to achieve when he is gone for 4 days,,And as for you moaning and whinging remark it only shows your ignorance,,I tried to phrase the original question in a way that wouldnt portray me as another moaner,as i was fairly confident that being called that is the standard reply when anyone has the nerve to question the guards,everyone that moans cant all be wrong and at times must be justified,,but when YOU dont want to see there right you wont entertain them,,Lets hope they never arm the ordinary guard as people will be shot for MOANING,,,I can see you going right to the top,if your not there allready,,

I'm sorry but you've just turned this into a rant now.

Once the " i pay your wages " line is thrown out the arguement is done and dusted and its instant ignore time.

You're pissed off that something wasn't done following your timetable......Fair enough.

Unfortunately the rostering system for 12,000 gardai takes into account many things other than your specific complaint.