British armed forces operational capability in the future ?

cruasder777

neilled wrote: »

Essentially the brits have decided that the next war they are going to fight isn't going to be the full on first rate power vs first rate power with armour clashing on the battle field supported by fast air..... the threat is more likely to be from non state actors such as ethnic or nationalist separatists rather the the third shock army.

As such their armoured capacity has been mothballed in comparison to what it was. If your thinking of becoming a tankie, its a declining profession right now. Thats not to say it won't be expanded again in future, but it looks increasingly unlikely. Indeed, the UK cavalry are moving towards what the Irish cav do - and thats recce, moving ahead of the main force, parking up, dismounting and finding out where the enemy are so that they can be crushed with a combined arms attack. However, with the emergence of ever more high tech UAV's some think the day of armoured recce is over......

Rather UK land forces are moving to a three tier structure

The first we in laymans terms you could all the light or "elite" role. These guys will be the initial entry into a conflict zone and will probably be the ones crossing the border first. As such they will be considered "elite" infantry - harder training than a regular "line" soldier, and be expected to fight and survive against the odds with little support from the word go.

The likes of your Royal Marines, Parachute regiment will be up there, with a few raf regiment thrown into the mix. however some of the other infantry regiments will be assigned this role as well. One of the battalions from "The Rifles" are commando trained. Basically if storming the beachhead, parachuting or choppering into battle are your thing, then this is where to go.

The next crowd are your regular infantry - there's nothing wrong with these guys and they'll probably be busy, once the initial flurry is over, or the enemy are tooled up with armour, regular "line" infantry will be out in force. Line infantry comes a variety of formats - light infantry (which isn't, they carry most of their stuff), armoured (who operate from tracked armoured vehicles like the warrior, bradley or bmp) and mechanised (who typically use a wheeled less heavily armoured vehicle like the mowag in service with the Irish). Off the three, the light are the cheapest to run, getting more expensive with mechanized and then armoured with the level of firepower available increasing as well. Indeed, there's going to be scrap over which units get the mechanized slots, which infantryman wouldn't rather ride to battle in an armoured hide, or go there in canvas sided truck?

Finally you have the supporting arms - your artillery, army air corps, cavalry, medics, logistics. Whilst derided by some "front line" troops as remfs, pogues etc, without these guys the "teeth" arms can't function, for every rifleman blazing away at the enemy theres any number of people needed to put him in the field. Apparently the unit that has been shot at most in afghanistan for the brits have been the Royal Logistics Corps. If you were a lightly armed insurgent, would you rather take on a heavily armed mechanised infantry unit, or have a pop at the poor old logistics unit trundling past in their trucks full of flamable materials?

In the past, UK units in the infantry used to rotate between the different roles - now each unit is getting a fixed role so what someone looking for a career will have to decide is which type of unit has a role that will match their career aspirations. The thing is, even if you opt for an "elite" unit that is supposed to be an initial force, you might not end up in that scenario, your unit might be deployed on an exercise somewhere in the world when a crisis errupts and a regular unit goes instead, or because they need the clunking armoured personnel carriers that they have.

However - politics will dictate as to what operations soldiers go on and whether the british government thinks its national interests and political skins are worth shipping you and your buddies off to get shot at. That said, i think the brits have been under hostile fire somewhere in the world most years since 1945.....

Alot of what you wrote is accurate, but the British Army already has light armour/cavalry (the Royal armored corps) which deploy in a recon role and have done since WW2. Its not a new role, nor a defunct one, although attack helos can carry out the same role in a more effective manner.There will always be a need for light armour recon units.

Most armies are scaling back on heavy armour.

The Parachute Reg, RMs and RAF reg are the UKs spearhead units and after special forces will always lead the way, even more so in expeditionary warfare.

cruasder777

OS119 wrote: »

not a UN, Blue-hatted job, which is what the bloke asked for.

and that would be Kosovo, not Macedonia.

The Paras in Kosovo or Macedonia never wore blue berets. They operated under NATO command in both countries.

vegan ezra

my question wasnt really about them being on un missions .. as funny as it sounds it was about have they ever worn them gammy blue berets because for me personally if i passed the commando course or p company and then had to wear a blue beret id be like a dog lol

OS119

cruasder777 wrote: »

The Paras in Kosovo or Macedonia never wore blue berets. They operated under NATO command in both countries.

err... yes, thats what i wrote, unlike what you wrote, because you don't read questions and get countries wrong.

cruasder777

vegan ezra wrote: »

my question wasnt really about them being on un missions .. as funny as it sounds it was about have they ever worn them gammy blue berets because for me personally if i passed the commando course or p company and then had to wear a blue beret id be like a dog lol

I have never heard of Paras or Royal Marines wearing blue berets.

OS119

cruasder777 wrote: »

I have never heard of Paras or Royal Marines wearing blue berets.

which shows what you know.

for someone with an unhealthy fascination with the Royal Marines and Parachute Regiment - not to mention a frankly disturbing one with the RAF Regiment - you are remarkably ill-informed about what they do, and where they go.

perhaps you should change the websites you cruise?

cruasder777

OS119 wrote: »

which shows what you know.

for someone with an unhealthy fascination with the Royal Marines and Parachute Regiment - not to mention a frankly disturbing one with the RAF Regiment - you are remarkably ill-informed about what they do, and where they go.

perhaps you should change the websites you cruise?

Post a picture of a Para wearing a blue beret then know it all ?

C coY of 2 Para done a tour in Bosnia and wore their own berets.


As for the RAF Regiment, some units have a Parachute Capability, part of their role is to operate alongside spearhead units to secure landing strips etc. Hence why they operate alongside the Paras and Royal Marines. Also with the Special Forces support group/1 Para.

neilled

tac foley wrote: »

neilled wrote: »

Essentially the brits have decided that the next war they are going to fight isn't going to be the full on first rate power vs first rate power with armour clashing on the battle field supported by fast air..... etc.

Good post, apart from the 'brits'.

Nationalities are capitalised, or they feel insulted.;)

tac

Typo tac :-), UK got full caps throughout. Well amend in due course.

Is insult enough for casus belli :-)?

Reference the point that crusader made about the rac having a Reece role, this is true, however what's always got their rocks off so to speak is good old fashioned heavy cavalry tank on tank action with a bit of grunt crunching thrown in for good measure.

The RAC and other similar armoured corps around the world are embracing Reece with a new fondness.......

goldie fish

tac foley wrote: »

There are NO mixed EU forces in the UK - anywhere.

The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.

tac

Or June 1944.....

Victor

goldie fish wrote: »

Or June 1944.....

Do you mean the period up to June 1944, because lots of them left then.

delta-boy

Heard at the end of a tour under the UN, the regiment gathered at a big bonfire and burned their blue berets, not sure where I heard it but sounds true with the regimental... ethos :P

getz

tac foley wrote: »

There are NO mixed EU forces in the UK - anywhere.

The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.

tac

there are still thousands of american troops and their families in the UK today

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

tac foley

feeney92 wrote: »

They aren't from the EU last time I checked?

Quite - see my posts #17, #21 and #27.

Even MORE to the point - 'troops' are defined as infantry personnel. 90% of all US military personnel here in UK are Air Force, the rest are Navy based at Holy Loch in Scotland. There are NO US soldiers in troop numbers based here in UK. There are a few USMC and Army scattered around the numerous training establishments, and my own unit had a single USAAF exchange officer as part of the permanent staff on a two-year tour.

I rest my case.

tac

OzCam

The May and June issues of combat & Survival carried stories about the UK 3 Para and French 8e RPIMa doing joint training as part of the workup for a new EU joint rapid reaction force. I don't have the issues to hand but I can look them up if needed.

Does that count?

OS119's analysis is reasonable, but it depends on both the A400M and F-35B being delivered in some kind of working condition. Both of them are way behind schedule and many times over budget. The amount of money wasted on them and the (very capable but shockingly expensive) Typhoon are the reason the headcount has to be reduced by so much, and the RN's frigates have no useful armament.

nellied, do you have a source for the idea that unit's will no longer rotate into and out of the rapid response and longer-term roles. I can see the RM and Paras etc remaining in the rapid role, but surely some of the others will have to rotate in and out periodically?

golden lane

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean the period up to June 1944, because lots of them left then.

yes, about 5%.........................

raymann

so, from what i am reading here, the changes they are making are actually quite suited to the type of needs that they are likely to come across and as such are probably the correct thing to do?

OS119

raymann wrote: »

so, from what i am reading here, the changes they are making are actually quite suited to the type of needs that they are likely to come across and as such are probably the correct thing to do?

broadly, yes.

you'll not meet many people who, given the choice of a freebee, wouldn't say 'yeah, ok, this structure is ok, and will probably be reasonably well suited to what we'll need, but i'd quite like to have to have a GBFO Armoured Division in the back pocket just in case..', but in broad terms, it is probably more suited to the kind of concept of operations that the UK is likely to undertake in the next 10-20 years.

the risk of course, as you'll have noted, is the number of 'probably', 'likely' and 'shoulds' in that statement.

personally, i think that SDSR 2015 and 2020 will see even more of the 'heavy' Army getting canned and the money going to the RAF and RN - they may not be able to produce the same effect as putting an Infantry Brigade on the ground, but by and large they do it without casualties, and with less public scruntiny.

tac foley

golden lane wrote: »

yes, about 5%.........................

Not far from where we live here in UK there are over 3500 Americans who never left.

Check it out - Madingley American Cemetery, Cambridgeshire.

tac

twinytwo

OS119 wrote: »

which shows what you know.

for someone with an unhealthy fascination with the Royal Marines and Parachute Regiment - not to mention a frankly disturbing one with the RAF Regiment - you are remarkably ill-informed about what they do, and where they go.

perhaps you should change the websites you cruise?

no point OS... didnt you know crusader knows "them" from way back.. cant tell you much though cause its "confidental" but rest assured all his info comes from "people in the know"

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

OS119

twinytwo wrote: »

no point OS... didnt you know crusader knows "them" from way back.. cant tell you much though cause its "confidental" but rest assured all his info comes from "people in the know"

i know, i'm wondering if - when i finally work out how to post pictures of the aforementioned Para's and RM's wearing Blue hats - he will sod off, and return with yet another crap username and a load of weblinks...

OS119

feeney92 wrote: »

Ah no need for little digs like that lads

you obviously haven't been around long enough!

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

golden lane

tac foley wrote: »

Not far from where we live here in UK there are over 3500 Americans who never left.

Check it out - Madingley American Cemetery, Cambridgeshire.

tac

well aware.....i lived a couple of miles away for 33 years.....there were 7.000 live ones about then as well....

golden lane

golden lane wrote: »

well aware.....i lived a couple of miles away for 33 years.....there were 7.000 live ones about then as well....

just sold my house there last year......