Buying a Westie pup Today, need advice QUICKLY!

doozer16

Hi people,
I've arranged to buy a Westie pup today from a guy on Donedeal, I've read alot of posts on here saying not to do so BUT when I spoke to this guy on the phone I couldn't help but be impressed with his sincerity, enthusiasm for the dogs and genuineness.
The parents are both his and they are IKC reg but the pups are not reg - Is that an issue for me?
The pups are not chipped but are wormed and vaccinated.

I have another option of a pup from a different guy on DD and his pup IS reg,chipped,wormed and vaccinated. but his dogs don't look as nice as the first guys dogs from pics I have seen.

I pretty much have my mind made up to go with the first guy, but does anyone have advice on why I should not buy from DD or should I go ahead if feel the guy is trustworthy?
Thanks for reading and for any advice given.

cocker5

doozer16 wrote: »

Hi people,
I've arranged to buy a Westie pup today from a guy on Donedeal, I've read alot of posts on here saying not to do so BUT when I spoke to this guy on the phone I couldn't help but be impressed with his sincerity, enthusiasm for the dogs and genuineness.
The parents are both his and they are IKC reg but the pups are not reg - Is that an issue for me?
The pups are not chipped but are wormed and vaccinated.

I have another option of a pup from a different guy on DD and his pup IS reg,chipped,wormed and vaccinated. but his dogs don't look as nice as the first guys dogs from pics I have seen.

I pretty much have my mind made up to go with the first guy, but does anyone have advice on why I should not buy from DD or should I go ahead if feel the guy is trustworthy?
Thanks for reading and for any advice given.

Honestly.... steer clear of both conatct IKC and got to a proper breeder, and wait for your pup... sorry i know its not what you wanted to hear but i wouldnt buy at all from donedeal...

There is a reason why sooo many people on boards have negative attitudes to it, its full of back yard breeders, puppy farmers doing anything to make money. if you get a pup from these type of "breeders" you will see the impact on the dog, no socialisation, etc...

Best of luck with whatever you decide

andreac

The best advice i can give you is stay well away from Donedeal, full stop!!

There is always a reason why the pups arent registered with the IKC and i can guarantee its not a good reason...

Why isnt he registering them if the parents are registered?? Serious alarms bells ringing there and i wouldnt touch that breeder with a barge pole.

Zapperzy

Personally I'd walk away from both. Ring the first guy and ask him why his pups are not registered, most likely he will tell you this is not needed unless you plan on showing or breeding from the pup.

The IKC have a few rules in place that a breeder has to comply with prior to registration, I'm not fully up to date with them but basically both the bitch and sire have to be over and under a certain age (that is to prevent breeding from a bitch too young or too old, both of which are not good). The bitch can only have a certain number of litters registered from her, after this she can still be bred from but the IKC will not register these litters, overbreeding from a bitch is detrimental to the bitch and only done for profit by puppy farmers. So if a pup is not registered you have to think why, if it's because of any of the above reasons the breeder is nothing more than a puppy farmer and walk away. If it's to save money then you have to think what other corners have been cut on the parent's and pup's care, poor quality food, no vet visit etc.

Westies are probably one of the most popular if not the most popular (maybe behind cavaliers) puppy farmed pups so you have to be very careful buying one. My advise is tell both these breeders you have changed your mind, save up some extra money and in the meantime start researching proper reputable breeders who show and health test their dogs, it might mean you putting off buying a pup for a year but it will save you countless euro's and heartbreak by going to a proper breeder and buying a pup that has the highest chance of being healthy and the best start in life.

There is a user on here who hopefully will see this thread and reply, she is somewhat of an expert on westies and will be able to further advise you on what health issues they suffer from and perhaps recommend a breeder.

carly_86

I bought a dog from done deal and she is beautiful never had any problems. Not everyone on done deal are cons. Make sure you see the pup at the sellers house

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

I bought a dog from done deal and she is beautiful never had any problems. Not everyone on done deal are cons. Make sure you see the pup at the sellers house

Sorry but theres a hell of a lot more to buying a pup and making sure its ok, just from seeing it at a sellers house...
Ive seen the majority of the people selling on there and they are far from reputable and trustworthy, plus the dogs are very bad quality.

DBB

:eek:

Please, please stop.
Not to put too fine a point on it, and because we can't be mentioning names of rescues, let me just say that I rehome Westies, and lots of them.

A huge amount of the Westies I rehome were bought originally from that website. The incidence of health problems, and serious behavioural problems in the dogs bought from that site is very high. The pups always look cute, Westie pups are particularly lovely, but it's not until they reach 6 months to a year old when you realise your pup has hip deformities, atopic skin, craniomandibular osteopathy (yes, I have rehomed quite a few dogs with ALL THREE conditions, which are endemic in Westies these days), early-onset cancers, Westie Lung (so common in this breed, the damn disease is named after them), dietary sensitivities, colitis, ear problems, urinary tract deformities... is the list long enough for you? These conditions are painful, expensive, and quite frankly, an utter pain in the arse to treat, and as you may have gathered, its got to the stage now that most Westies bred in southern Ireland will have one of these conditions in their lifetime, or die (early) from one of these conditions.
Every one of the people who bought their DD pups before surrendering them to me thought the breeder was enthusiastic, nice, etc etc. Of course they are... I'm always nice to people who are about to give me money too!

I'll give it to you straight now, and not to blow my trumpet, but there is nobody in Ireland who has handled as many Westies as I have, and I would not buy a Westie pup from ANY breeder in southern Ireland, let alone from any breeder on that website. I have sent clients to some "highly recommended", show-winning breeders who really let the side down, selling pups in poor condition with SERIOUS behavioural problems.
There is an excellent Westie Society in Northern Ireland: the pups they breed are exactly what the breed needs to get it out of the hellhole it's in in Ireland right now. I would be more than happy to put you in contact with them so you can get yourself a healthy, well-adjusted pup, instead of the lottery you're about to get yourself into today.
I would ask, on a personal level, that you dont support breeders who (a) advertise this overbred, sickly breed online, and (b) don't bother their arses registering their pups. It's this simple: the pups are not registered because they're not allowed register them, possibly because this is the bitch's second litter in a year, possibly some other reason. Anyone who's at this is a gangster. I can't say it any more clearly than that. I am sick, sick, sick, to the back teeth, of people buying cheap pups from that website, because all too often, I have to clean up the mess after them, when it comes to Westies. But that's only a small part of it. The welfare issues surrounding these badly bred pups are huge... it is utterly, utterly unfair on a dog to suffer the conditions that these people have caused to become viral in Westies.
I can tell you, without any shadow of a doubt, there are no good Westie breeders advertising on Donedeal. None. I say that with utter confidence.
There is a high demand for Westies: if this guy was any good, he'd have the pups sold before they were conceived, it's just that simple.
Of COURSE he's enthusiastic and nice... sure aren't you about to pay him, what, €300 for a pup? I've had so many people in your position ring me several days after buying a pup off DD who had to pay as much again in vet's fees after getting the pup home. What part of the country is he in? There are certain balckspots in westie breeding in Ireland: the Southeast, Kilkenny/Tipp, Cork, Mullingar area, Dunboyne and Clonee (Meath), and Cavan, but if your breeder isn't in any of these areas, it doesn't mean he's any good either.

Please reconsider. Act in haste, repent at leaisure. If you go for it, have your vet's phone number on speed dial. Sorry to be so negative, but I am being utterly honest with you: your post has really upset me because I have devoted so much of my life to this breed, and it really, really annoys me when chancers are making such a balls of the breed, and people still insist on giving them their money, perpetuating the whole damn ugly cycle.

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

I bought a dog from done deal and she is beautiful never had any problems. Not everyone on done deal are cons. Make sure you see the pup at the sellers house

Sorry but theres a hell of a lot more to buying a pup and making sure its ok, just from seeing it at a sellers house...
Ive seen the majority of the people selling on there and they are far from reputable and trustworthy, plus the dogs are very bad quality.

yes i do no that the pup was healthy so were the parents. These living conditions were excellent and the seller was genuine

andreac

Did you see the health test results for the parents?

doozer16

Thanks for both replies guys,
He said he stopped registering the pups because of the price involved. He also says he has had a long list of people that have got pups from him in the past and has never ever had any trouble, this is the 3rd litter from the bitch and his 3rd generation of westies. This guy is a genuine dog lover, I just know he is by the way he spoke to me, you can't fake enthusiasm and love for dogs the way he spoke.
He is defo not a puppy farmer imo, but is a back yard breeder that does it as a hobby really that worse than a back yard breeder that is registering the puppys?
That's not sarcasm, I genuinely don't know why the difference is so big (I'm assuming because pedigree may not be 100% with non reg) - alot of this is new to me.
If the parents are reg, then can I reg the puppy afterwards, does/can it work that way?
I'm getting cold feet now after talking to you guys :-(
but really do appreciate the advice! :-)

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

Did you see the health test results for the parents?

Yes i did see there injection card etc

andreac

doozer16 wrote: »

Thanks for both replies guys,
He said he stopped registering the pups because of the price involved. He also says he has had a long list of people that have got pups from him in the past and has never ever had any trouble, this is the 3rd litter from the bitch and his 3rd generation of westies. This guy is a genuine dog lover, I just know he is by the way he spoke to me, you can't fake enthusiasm and love for dogs the way he spoke.
He is defo not a puppy farmer imo, but is a back yard breeder that does it as a hobby really that worse than a back yard breeder that is registering the puppys?
That's not sarcasm, I genuinely don't know why the difference is so big (I'm assuming because pedigree may not be 100% with non reg) - alot of this is new to me.
If the parents are reg, then can I reg the puppy afterwards, does/can it work that way?
I'm getting cold feet now after talking to you guys :-(
but really do appreciate the advice! :-)

Seriously Doozer, i dont mean to be harsh but wake up!!

It doesnt cost much to register the pups, if im correct its €15 per pup and they have to be microchipped by the vet as well which isnt too much, so in total it would be about 50/60 to get a pup registered.

So hes going to charge a fortune for the pups and not register them so he can make as money as possible for himself, and hes not a puppy farmer or back yard breeder?? Are you reading this?

Breeders dont do it as a hobby, thats exactly what a puppy farmer is, breeding just for the sake of it.

If he was a reputable breeder he would be doing everything by the book and that means registering them with the IKC!!!

His 3rd litter from the bitch?? Really? Poor dog Why does he need to keep breeding from her, ill tell you why, to make more bloody money to line his pockets.
Is it sinking in yet??
Dont mean to sound harsh but im trying to show you what kind of people these are, they dont do it for the love of the dog, they do it for money!!

He wouldnt breed her 3 bloody times if he loved her, end of :mad:

No, you cannot reg the pup, only the breeder can do that.

Please please walk away from this person!!!

toadfly

It costs something like €12 per pup to register so he is lying through his teeth.

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

Yes i did see there injection card etc

Sorry, but thats not health testing. What health tests were done on the parents, ie Hip scoring, elbow scoring, heart/eye testing??

A vaccination card only shows what jabs the pup got, nothing else. I think you need to do a lot more research....

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

Yes i did see there injection card etc

Sorry, but thats not health testing. What health tests were done on the parents, ie Hip scoring, elbow scoring, heart/eye testing??

A vaccination card only shows what jabs the pup got, nothing else. I think you need to do a lot more research....

The dog is 4 now. Never had a problem so shove your nonsense some where else

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

The dog is 4 now. Never had a problem so shove your nonsense some where else

Health testing is nonsense? Really? :rolleyes:

mymo

I think the fee for registering a pup is €15 or something, small ammount so the cost thing is bull.
Reasons for not registering that I have heard of ...bitch too old (I know someone bred a bitch at 9:eek: because she was a good healthy dog in his opinion. IKC say 6 is maximum age.
Also too many litters, parents aren't registered (just cos they say they are doesn't mean they are), and finally they dogs aren't pure bred (know a lady got a shih tzu that looks more jack russell.

Please re think this, I know 5 westie owners, all have skin conditions, 3 have one or more other health issue, all are under 6 years old.
DBB knows their stuff, if you really want a westie contact them.

doozer16

Ok,
Great advice, thanks for input, I certainly have learned alot here!!!!
DBB can you PM me details of that place in N.I, I'd really like to get cracking on how I can get my hands on a PROPER Westie pup as soon as possible.
Or if anyone know or reputable breeders or where I can find a list please let me know.
I tried ringing the all Ireland westies club number with the number given on IKC but no answer.
Appreciate all the advice, and DBB if you are based in Louth then I have seen some of your work online and CONGRATULATIONS to you on your work, AMAZING results, you should be really proud of yourself.

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

The dog is 4 now. Never had a problem so shove your nonsense some where else

Health testing is nonsense? Really?

The pup had a check up when i got her chipped everything was fine

ABajaninCork

I have a Shih Tzu bought from DoneDeal. Now, IMD I am not Irish, and did not know the form here. But I have common sense, and being from London a pretty good BS detector.

But we wanted a pet, not a show dog. We went to see the breeder, obviously saw the pups, and chose one. Breeder showed us the vaccination record, (which we checked with the vet), we saw the facilities the dogs were kept in and decided to get him.

I now have a lovely, happy, healthy, well-cared for dog who gets loads of compliments where ever we go.

I think there's good and bad EVERYWHERE we look. It's down to the prospective owner to make their own enquiries and checks, and make an informed decision from there.

Having said that, I do think the OP's breeder does sound sus. Why are the parents (apparently) IKC, but does not want to register the litter?

OP - if that's the dog you want, did you look at the parent's pedigree?

Zapperzy

doozer16 wrote: »

Thanks for both replies guys,
He said he stopped registering the pups because of the price involved. He also says he has had a long list of people that have got pups from him in the past and has never ever had any trouble, this is the 3rd litter from the bitch and his 3rd generation of westies. This guy is a genuine dog lover, I just know he is by the way he spoke to me, you can't fake enthusiasm and love for dogs the way he spoke.
He is defo not a puppy farmer imo, but is a back yard breeder that does it as a hobby really that worse than a back yard breeder that is registering the puppys?
That's not sarcasm, I genuinely don't know why the difference is so big (I'm assuming because pedigree may not be 100% with non reg) - alot of this is new to me.
If the parents are reg, then can I reg the puppy afterwards, does/can it work that way?
I'm getting cold feet now after talking to you guys :-(
but really do appreciate the advice! :-)

Have a read of this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056295154

Only the breeder can register the pups, you cannot do it afterwards. A backyard breeder is basically the same as a puppy farmer. When people hear puppy farmer they picture big sheds full of breeding bitches and while these do exist in Ireland the vast majority of puppy farmed/backyard bred pups come from family homes and family pets, the breeders may not be maliciously cruelly treating their pets but they have a dog with an intact reproductive system so think whats the harm in making a few hundred euro off her, they may love their pets but when it comes to breeding they are ignorant.

A proper breeder will prove that their dogs are worthy to breed, that the pups will contribute something to the gene pool by either being good workers or of good confimation (by showing the dog), then they will health test their dog to ensure it will not pass on any health problems to it's progeny, these health tests are not a once over by a vet they vary from breed to breed but generally involve x-raying joints, eye tests or dna tests. Once it has a clean bill of health has been confirmed they seek out a suitable stud dog (generally the owners of bitches seek out the stud, rather than all the adverts advertising stud duties that you see), they will look for a stud that also has a clean bill of health from health tests and that also compliments the bitch's confirmation or working characteristics.

You might think that all sounds very snobby and only for people who want a show dog or plan on breeding but stand in any vet surgery for a day and watch what comes in, the puppy farmers/backyard breeders are lining vet's pockets (and I don't mean that in a bad way towards vets but it is true) and the same issues in the same breeds are walking into the vet surgery every day. Now following the above guidelines when looking for a pup won't 100% guarentee a healthy pup but it's like crossing the road, you could take a chance and not look both ways and cross safely or you could get hit by a car, or you could take the precautions and make sure you have a damn good chance of crossing safely.

DBB

doozer16 wrote: »

Thanks for both replies guys,
He said he stopped registering the pups because of the price involved.

:eek:

He also says he has had a long list of people that have got pups from him in the past and has never ever had any trouble, this is the 3rd litter from the bitch and his 3rd generation of westies.

Ahh, I wish I had a euro for every breeder I've heard this exact line from, despite significant health and behavioural problems their pups are having in their new homes. Breeders are adept at sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to criticism of their pups... do you seriously expect him to say "Well,yes, I've had X pups returned due to Y health condition, Z behavioural problem, and heard that X more of my pups that were PTS due to such problems"? For example, I've rehomed a few Westies that were bred in Meath: they had heart murmurs so pronounced that I could feel the heart murmur with my hand! I got speaking to this breeder one day... he had NO IDEA that his pups were routinely being born with this problem. It's unlikely any of them will see their 10th birthday.

Ask him have his Westie broodstock been screened for Legg-Calve-Perthe's Disease, or Craniomandibular Osteopathy (if he doesn't understand this, tell him it's also called "Lion's Head Disease"), or have any of the pedigree had Atopy, or Pulmonary Fibrosis. Don;t go explaining to him what these conditions are after you've googled them yourself
If he doesn't know what any of these conditions are, then he's an absolute chancer. I will surprised if you come back here and post that he was knowledgeable about any of these conditions! That's why these conditions are endemic now.
I'd also like to know what age the bitch is. If she's 7, and this is her 3rd litter, then fair enough. But if she's a youngster, then it's bad. Really bad.

This guy is a genuine dog lover, I just know he is by the way he spoke to me, you can't fake enthusiasm and love for dogs the way he spoke.
He is defo not a puppy farmer imo, but is a back yard breeder that does it as a hobby really that worse than a back yard breeder that is registering the puppys?

Ive little doubt he loves his dogs. But it is important to realise that the proportion of Westies (and other popular breeds) produced in puppy farms in Ireland is actually a lot lower than the amount of Westies produced by back-yard-breeders. The country is FULL of BYBs, and they don't fall under the new dog breeding legislation because they're small-time operators.

DBB

doozer16 wrote: »

Ok,

DBB can you PM me details of that place in N.I, I'd really like to get cracking on how I can get my hands on a PROPER Westie pup as soon as possible.

Cool. Thank you for your kind words. I'll PM you some contacts now.

I tried ringing the all Ireland westies club number with the number given on IKC but no answer.

Aha! An herein you have found another huge problem with westies in Ireland. The breed society in the south are hard to contact, unhelpful (I have found from personal experience and from a LOT of owners complaining about them to me), and they are, I feel, responsible for driving many poeple who want to get a nicely bred westie right into the arms of the online advertisers.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I think there's good and bad EVERYWHERE we look. It's down to the prospective owner to make their own enquiries and checks, and make an informed decision from there.

OP - if that's the dog you want, did you look at the parent's pedigree?

I think it's probably reasonable to say that if you're careful, you can get the odd good, if not a tad naive, breeder via that site. But I have not yet come across one single solitary good Westie breeder advertising via that site. Not one.
Looking at a westie's pedigree is of little use unless you really know your lines: they are so overbeed with so, so many broodstock dogs in the country, the pedigrees of this breed down here are almost valueless.. even I would struggle to know whether any particular pedigree was any good or not, with some exceptions!

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

Health testing is nonsense? Really?

The pup had a check up when i got her chipped everything was fine

Carly, a quick vet check is not health testing. Health testing is doing specific tests on the parents, relative to the breed, ie Hip/elbow scoring, heart tests etc, to see if the parents are fit and healthy enough to breed from in the first place.

Im guessing you didnt see or look for these, so how do you know that the parents should have been bred from?

Getting a pup checked after the parents have been bred from is too late as they could have already passed on problems when they were bred.

What breed do you have if you dont mind me asking?

SpyderCats

Hi OP
I also got my dog from DoneDeal and have no problems but the posters on here saying to stay away from the site do have a very good point.

When I was looking for my dog I must have rang at least 10 so called breeders before I eventually found one that I felt I could trust. Most of them didn't want me to call to the house were the puppies lived, they made all kinds of excuses, like, "OH can I meet you at MC Donald's because I don't want to upset the kids" or "I'm going out shopping but I can meet you some where on the way".

If a puppy is not registered then something is wrong IMO its more then likely that the pups mother is being over bred.

I hope you find a good breeder and a healthy pup, best of luck

boxerly

Costs 15 euro to register a pup with IKC,vets are doing chipping for 20/25 euro,he has no excuse.You really want to find a good breeder who does health checks on on both parents who chips,worms,vaxs pups etc.The IKC can give you numbers for good breeder,their not all bad:)

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

Health testing is nonsense? Really?

The pup had a check up when i got her chipped everything was fine

Carly, a quick vet check is not health testing. Health testing is doing specific tests on the parents, relative to the breed, ie Hip/elbow scoring, heart tests etc, to see if the parents are fit and healthy enough to breed from in the first place.

Im guessing you didnt see or look for these, so how do you know that the parents should have been bred from?

Getting a pup checked after the parents have been bred from is too late as they could have already passed on problems when they were bred.

What breed do you have if you dont mind me asking?

I am not breeding her i just wanted her as a pet. She is a black and tanned jack Russell

loveisdivine

carly_86 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

I am not breeding her i just wanted her as a pet. She is a black and tanned jack Russell

Sorry to butt in, but whether or not you want to breed her is irrelevant. The bitch your pup was bred from should have been health tested. How do you know she was healthy, or hadnt been over bred?

Obviously its too late now, but you probably had a lucky escape.

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

I am not breeding her i just wanted her as a pet. She is a black and tanned jack Russell

That doesnt matter, the parents should still be health tested before breeding, regardless of whether the pup will be sued for breeding in the first place. The parents should be fit and healthy before breeding.

carly_86

loveisdivine wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

I am not breeding her i just wanted her as a pet. She is a black and tanned jack Russell

Sorry to butt in, but whether or not you want to breed her is irrelevant. The bitch your pup was bred from should have been health tested. How do you know she was healthy, or hadnt been over bred?

Obviously its too late now, but you probably had a lucky escape.

I am sure most people don't get the dog health tested before buying a pup

cocker5

carly_86 wrote: »

loveisdivine wrote: »

I am sure most people don't get the dog health tested before buying a pup

i think your missing the WHOLE point... or else not reading posts correctly...

the BUYER doesnt get the dog/pup health tested... the BREEDER should get their dogs health tested BEFORE breeding :rolleyes:

Rommie

And health tests are so, so important now with how the breeds are ending up. I met a beautiful long haired german shepherd yesterday, just nine months old but with obvious hip dysplasia Poor dog is going to in a lot of trouble in the next year or so.

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

loveisdivine wrote: »

I am sure most people don't get the dog health tested before buying a pup

That doesnt matter Carly, thats not the attitude to have. Its up to the buyer to make sure they buy from health tested parents and responsible breeders. Do you know how bad this country is in with regards to unhealthy dogs that are put to sleep and over breeding?

cocker5

Rommie wrote: »

And health tests are so, so important now with how the breeds are ending up. I met a beautiful long haired german shepherd yesterday, just nine months old but with obvious hip dysplasia Poor dog is going to in a lot of trouble in the next year or so.

A friend of mine has a beautiful long haird male german shepard, 6 months, he stayed with us last week.... obvious hip dysplasia too... he back legs wobble as he walks and kinda each lef kinda crosses over etc...
its just sooo sad

I find there is a sinister element to "propper breeders" also. They always have a waiting list due to other breeders needing a bitch or a dog to breed, they always hang around in little tight little circles. Due to the internet, they start selling dogs to other country's specifically for breeding. They also over charge on the price of the dog and claim "health Benifits" yet cannot guarantee this.

Not only that but they practice selective breeding which is a common characteristic of a Nazi

My advice just rescue this dog will become a part of your family and like members of your family, you have good and bad mostly good.

andreac

Deleted User wrote: »

I find there is a sinister element to "propper breeders" also. They always have a waiting list due to other breeders needing a bitch or a dog to breed, they always hang around in little tight little circles. Due to the internet, they start selling dogs to other country's specifically for breeding. They also over charge on the price of the dog and claim "health Benifits" yet cannot guarantee this.

Not only that but they practice selective breeding which is a common characteristic of a Nazi

My advice just rescue this dog will become a part of your family and like members of your family, you have good and bad mostly good.

Sorry but i disagree. Responsible breeders have waiting lists because they dont breed very often. They usually only breed when they want to keep something for themselves, or the dog is of exceptional quality and has become a champion in its breed etc.

Depending on the breed, the bitch might only have 5/6 pups so if people are looking for a good pup they might have to wait a while.

They certainly do not over charge. Do you know how much it actually costs to breed and raise a litter properly?? Im guessing not.

There is nothing about "health benefits", its health tests that are done on the parents. Nothing can be guaranteed but if the parents are health tested then it reduces the risk of any problems being passed on to the pups.

Rommie

Deleted User wrote: »

I find there is a sinister element to "propper breeders" also. They always have a waiting list due to other breeders needing a bitch or a dog to breed, they always hang around in little tight little circles. Due to the internet, they start selling dogs to other country's specifically for breeding. They also over charge on the price of the dog and claim "health Benifits" yet cannot guarantee this.

In that case, I think we have very different opinions on what the word 'proper' means. A proper breeder to me is one that health tests both parents before breeding, does not breed either until they are at least two years old, each pup is fed high quality food, microchipped, vaccinated, wormed, vet checked and is only sold on a contract that they MUST be returned to the breeder if there are any issues. I'm not big on showing, and to me it sounds like what you're describing are some show people (not all of them obviously because I've met a lot lovely show people who would bend over backwards to help you out, but the kind you talk about are those that give dog showing a bad name)

Rommie

Rommie wrote: »

In that case, I think we have very different opinions on what the word 'proper' means. A proper breeder to me is one that health tests both parents before breeding, does not breed either until they are at least two years old, each pup is fed high quality food, microchipped, vaccinated, wormed, vet checked and is only sold on a contract that they MUST be returned to the breeder if there are any issues. I'm not big on showing, and to me it sounds like what you're describing are some show people (not all of them obviously because I've met a lot lovely show people who would bend over backwards to help you out, but the kind you talk about are those that give dog showing a bad name)

So if you do get a dog and that dog ends up having health issues and you sold that dog to a family. Why would the family return it ? ? Would the breeder pay the vet bills ?

the_syco

doozer16 wrote: »

He said he stopped registering the pups because of the price involved.

Probably also because he'd be shut down when he registers the 18th batch from the same bitch.

=-=

My own westie lived for 15 years, but always had skin/coat problems. Got her in 1997/1998 when only dial-up was around, from a woman in a small house in the middle of Connamara.

When I buy a dog myself in the future, I'll be doing a lot of research!

andreac

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but i disagree. Responsible breeders have waiting lists because they dont breed very often. They usually only breed when they want to keep something for themselves, or the dog is of exceptional quality and has become a champion in its breed etc.

Depending on the breed, the bitch might only have 5/6 pups so if people are looking for a good pup they might have to wait a while.

They certainly do not over charge. Do you know how much it actually costs to breed and raise a litter properly?? Im guessing not.

There is nothing about "health benefits", its health tests that are done on the parents. Nothing can be guaranteed but if the parents are health tested then it reduces the risk of any problems being passed on to the pups.

I am just generalizing like everybody else here. With regards to the dog problem within Ireland, "proper breeders" are not exempt from any of this.
Just walking your Champion line pedigree dog down the street is advertisement in itself. How many people see that and think "i want a dog"

How about banning all breeding and sale of dogs for 15 years. The only way to obtain a dog is from a shelter. Fixed price on all breeds and cross breeds.

Rommie

Deleted User wrote: »

So if you do get a dog and that dog ends up having health issues and you sold that dog to a family. Why would the family return it ? ? Would the breeder pay the vet bills ?

Any breeder worth his salt would at least offer what they paid for the dog as a refund, and help in any way they can. And the issues I meant were that they couldn't keep the dog/were emigrating and such, that the dog must be returned to the breeder and not sold to a third party, put in a pound.

andreac

Deleted User wrote: »

I am just generalizing like everybody else here. With regards to the dog problem within Ireland, "proper breeders" are not exempt from any of this.
Just walking your Champion line pedigree dog down the street is advertisement in itself. How many people see that and think "i want a dog" How about banning all breeding and sale of dogs for 15 years. The only way to obtain a dog is from a shelter. Fixed price on all breeds and cross breeds.

Sorry but i completley disagree on this highlighted point. Its far from an advertisement.
Ive a champion dog whos done an awful lot of winning and is available for stud, but do you know how many times hes been used? 3, and hes nearly 6. He was top in his breed for 2011, has won several big awards but the demand isnt there like you think it is.

I dont advertise him on donedeal or the likes. Hes on the Club website, and my own website but there still isnt huge demand for stud dogs, well not the way you seem to think there is.

Contrary to what you think is going on, i think you really dont have a clue.

If people bred responsibly and werent cross breeding dogs and selling to dodgy people then there wouldnt be the amount of dogs in rescue in the first place.

carly_86

andreac wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I am just generalizing like everybody else here. With regards to the dog problem within Ireland, "proper breeders" are not exempt from any of this.
Just walking your Champion line pedigree dog down the street is advertisement in itself. How many people see that and think "i want a dog" How about banning all breeding and sale of dogs for 15 years. The only way to obtain a dog is from a shelter. Fixed price on all breeds and cross breeds.

Sorry but i completley disagree on this highlighted point. Its far from an advertisement.
Ive a champion dog whos done an awful lot of winning and is available for stud, but do you know how many times hes been used? 3, and hes nearly 6. He was top in his breed for 2011, has won several big awards but the demand isnt there like you think it is.

I dont advertise him on donedeal or the likes. Hes on the Club website, and my own website but there still isnt huge demand for stud dogs, well not the way you seem to think there is.

Contrary to what you think is going on, i think you really dont have a clue.

If people bred responsibly and werent cross breeding dogs and selling to dodgy people then there wouldnt be the amount of dogs in rescue in the first place.

Everyone is entitled to there opinion

andreac

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but i completley disagree on this highlighted point. Its far from an advertisement.
Ive a champion dog whos done an awful lot of winning and is available for stud, but do you know how many times hes been used? 3, and hes nearly 6. He was top in his breed for 2011, has won several big awards but the demand isnt there like you think it is.

I dont advertise him on donedeal or the likes. Hes on the Club website, and my own website but there still isnt huge demand for stud dogs, well not the way you seem to think there is.

Contrary to what you think is going on, i think you really dont have a clue.

If people bred responsibly and werent cross breeding dogs and selling to dodgy people then there wouldnt be the amount of dogs in rescue in the first place.

The amount of dogs in the pounds is down to consumerism. We live in a society were advertising has a big impact on peoples everyday life. By wearing a designer top or designer runners, you are advertising. By walking your dog or even showing your dog. (like fashion designers) you are sending a message to people, consumers if you will who will think. "I want one" These people then go to done deal or puppy farms and buy dogs.

How can you say this is not true ?

andreac

carly_86 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to there opinion

Which is why i said i "disagree" :rolleyes:

andreac

Deleted User wrote: »

The amount of dogs in the pounds is down to consumerism. We live in a society were advertising has a big impact on peoples everyday life. By wearing a designer top or designer runners, you are advertising. By walking your dog or even showing your dog. (like fashion designers) you are sending a message to people, consumers if you will who will think. "I want one" These people then go to done deal or puppy farms and buy dogs.

How can you say this is not true ?

No the amount of dogs that are in pounds is down to bad owners and bad breeders full stop. Nothing to do with consumerism. I can buy a dog and have it for life and treat it well etc, but the next person could buy one and just get rid when they have a new baby, etc etc, thats bad ownership, nothing to do with consumerism. People are far too quick to "get rid" of their dogs when they cant be bothered to work with it, train it etc when theres an issue. Thats why pounds etc are full.

So because someone walks a pedigree dog down the road its encouraging people to buy? Sure that can be said about anything then.

You initially said "Champion" pedigree. Unless you speak to the owner or know the dog personally, no one know the dog is an actual champion so how can you can you say that?

carly_86

carly_86 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to there opinion

Myself and Andreac sometimes clash and dont agree, but she is cool and does have awesome dogs

andreac

Exactly Dre, we are having a discussion, no one is right or wrong, apart from me, lol

carly_86

Dre as in Dray wrote: »

carly_86 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to there opinion

Myself and Andreac sometimes clash and dont agree, but she is cool and does have awesome dogs

Well all i am saying as long as the dog has a loving home nothing else matters

Rommie

carly_86 wrote: »

Well all i am saying as long as the dog has a loving home nothing else matters

While it is fantastic to give a dog a loving home, one must then wonder, what about said dog's parents? Grandparents? Is it fair on them to live a life of misery so people can continue to give their pups a good life?

ISDW

Deleted User wrote: »

I am just generalizing like everybody else here. With regards to the dog problem within Ireland, "proper breeders" are not exempt from any of this.
Just walking your Champion line pedigree dog down the street is advertisement in itself. How many people see that and think "i want a dog"

How about banning all breeding and sale of dogs for 15 years. The only way to obtain a dog is from a shelter. Fixed price on all breeds and cross breeds.

How would that work? how would there be any dogs in shelters if there is no breeding, or would the only dogs there be those that have been seized because people have broken the law? so none of them would have had the relevant health checks, so only dogs with potential would be available, and when the ban was lifted, what state would dogs be in?